Game of Thrones (Season 3)

[Henry Gale]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzI9v_B4sxw

I want it all NOOOOW.

[Dukefrukem]

Yup.

[Ivan Drago]

WINTER IS COMING!!!

[slqrick]

Read the books after season two ended last year, and now gonna try and watch seasons one and two again over the next month. Cannot wait for the premiere.

[Scar]

Gimme.

[romantisaurusrex]

I'm mid book 2 and am going to try to finish book 5 by the time the new season starts, very exciting.

[Dukefrukem]

According to the Showrunners:


According to them, the HBO series could last as long as eight to nine seasons.

To get through the whole story.

[Raiders]

Well, considering this season only tells part of the third book (culminating in you-know-what), it makes sense it will likely last longer than seven seasons.

[[ETM]]

Titles of most S3 episodes:
Ep. 301 – Valar Dohaeris
Ep. 302 – Dark Wings, Dark Words
Ep. 303 – Walk of Punishment
Ep. 304 – And Now His Watch is Ended
Ep. 305 – Kissed by Fire
Ep. 306 – to be determined
Ep. 307 – The Bear and the Maiden Fair
Ep. 308 – to be determined
Ep. 309 – The Rains of Castamere
Ep. 310 – Mhysa

[Lucky]

Well, considering this season only tells part of the third book (culminating in you-know-what), it makes sense it will likely last longer than seven seasons.

The twin weddings, I assume?

[Lazlo]

Based on the episode titles that will be episode 9.

[[ETM]]

They always do major stuff around that part of the season, yeah.

[slqrick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R4XSeW4B5Rg

lol TRON music.

[Henry Gale]

Of all the Daft Punk pieces from that movie to use too. It's just so overtly glitchy and techy.

The footage is fantastic though.

[[ETM]]

Love the Daft Punk. Epic trailer.

[Ivan Drago]

;471083']Love the Daft Punk. Epic trailer.

Indeed.

Screw Easter, I hereby declare March 31st Game of Thrones Day.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Ok, I need help. I'm trying to get past the pivotal moment in A Storm of Swords that will serve as the climax (of sorts) to season three of the show, and I'm trying to make it before the season begins, while juggling my school work. I don't want to get spoiled, so just a yes or no answer is all I'm looking for. Is the moment:

when Daenerys unleashes her dragons on Kraznys and the rest of the slave holders of the Unsullied?

Everyone keeps telling me I'll know it when I get to it, and while that moment was awesome, my gut tells me that's not enough.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Rewatching that second trailer, it seems as though it can't be, unless they've done quite a bit of tweaking with the chronology of the book.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Ok, I need help. I'm trying to get past the pivotal moment in A Storm of Swords that will serve as the climax (of sorts) to season three of the show, and I'm trying to make it before the season begins, while juggling my school work. I don't want to get spoiled, so just a yes or no answer is all I'm looking for. Is the moment:

when Daenerys unleashes her dragons on Kraznys and the rest of the slave holders of the Unsullied?

Everyone keeps telling me I'll know it when I get to it, and while that moment was awesome, my gut tells me that's not enough.

No.

Agree that you'll really know when you get there. :)

[Kurosawa Fan]

No. But I think you're pretty close. You'll know :)

Awesome. Should have trusted my gut. Thanks!

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Awesome. Should have trusted my gut. Thanks!

Yup! Edited because it's been a while since I read it and really don't remember how close you are to the actual event.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yup! Edited because it's been a while since I read it and really don't remember how close you are to the actual event.

Heh. Over 200 pages later, still not there yet. :frustrated:

Really wish I didn't know there was such a pivotal moment coming up.

[Fezzik]

I'm subscribing to this thread so I can keep an eye on KF's progress and see his reaction :D

[Lucky]

:lol:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2a8giapXh1r1akteo1_500 .png

Book 3 major event spoiler. KF, you haven't gotten there yet.

[Kurosawa Fan]

:lol:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2a8giapXh1r1akteo1_500 .png

Book 3 major event spoiler. KF, you haven't gotten there yet.

I hate you.

[Lucky]

:lol: I'm just encouraging you to meet your deadline.

[Dukefrukem]

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/files/2013/03/GameofThrones-dragon-shadow-season3-billboard1.jpg
http://boston.barstoolsports.com/files/2013/03/GameThrones-dragon-shadow-season3-billboard.jpg
http://boston.barstoolsports.com/files/2013/03/65938_539511362738005_13530857 3_n.jpg

[Fezzik]

So, they've done this now: http://www.jointherealm.com.

You can create a family crest in the style of the houses in GoT.

Here's mine:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/600223_374795719299905_1485637 41_n.jpg

[Kurosawa Fan]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/mike3245/HouseBeeckman_zps53eefd23.png

[Dukefrukem]

Mine's lame and not worth posting.

[Fezzik]

Love the color combo, KF...where on Earth did you come up with it? ;)

[Kurosawa Fan]

Love the color combo, KF...where on Earth did you come up with it? ;)

I can think of no better house colors. I'd go to war over those colors if I lived in Westeros.

[Kurosawa Fan]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:


I mean, he telegraphed it for a chapter or two, but even so...


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Lucky]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I felt. There's another bomb to drop in the next ten chapters as well.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I felt. There's another bomb to drop in the next ten chapters as well.

Can I look at your spoilers yet or do they extend to the end of the book?

[Scar]

I hate you guys.

I'm reading other books, and watching Game of Thrones, so I don't know fuck all.

[Fezzik]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:


I mean, he telegraphed it for a chapter or two, but even so...


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Yeah...thats the customary reaction. I am actually looking forward to Twitter the night that episode airs.

[Ivan Drago]

Yeah...thats the customary reaction. I am actually looking forward to Twitter the night that episode airs.

Whatever this is, I hope it comes in the show like SEASON ONE SPOILER Ned's death did, as a complete surprise, and that we're not already predicting it an episode early.

I will also sever off all contact with anyone who spoils it for me in real life.

[Lucky]

Can I look at your spoilers yet or do they extend to the end of the book?

You're good on the spoiler. It's just one of those ecard things relating to the scene you read today.

[Ivan Drago]

So, they've done this now: http://www.jointherealm.com.

You can create a family crest in the style of the houses in GoT.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/299188_10151573747618554_14685 42703_n.jpg

[Kurosawa Fan]

A friend created this one for me. Put my effort to shame. Anyone who is friends with me on Facebook should understand the motto. Actually, I might have posted that picture here once upon a time.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/mike3245/HouseBeeckman2_zpsb3e2b2ba.jpg

[Dead & Messed Up]

I have nothing of use to say about tonight's decent pipe-layery, so I'll just say that I want Jon Snow and Danaryes [sic] to get married and have fire-and-ice babies.

[Sxottlan]

My parents have gotten into genealogy lately and this has come up as allegedly being an actual family motto:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526389_10200510260192090_19443 44725_n.jpg

[Kurosawa Fan]

I have nothing of use to say about tonight's decent pipe-layery, so I'll just say that I want Jon Snow and Danaryes [sic] to get married and have fire-and-ice babies.

:lol:

Yeah, this episode was a bit... uneventful, I guess? I commented to someone on Facebook that it was definitely slow out of the gates, but considering I know how wild it's going to get, I can be patient. Highlight of the episode was the Tywin/Tyrion exchange. Just brutal.

[slqrick]

It was a premiere full of pure set up, and next episode probably will be too. Unfortunately, when you've read the books and are waiting for the cool shit to happen, this can make it feel a bit uneventful/boring. I imagine that episode worked a lot better for newbies, and I still enjoyed having the show finally back. I'm glad they're giving Dany some proactivity right out of the gates, and I love the fact that Bronn is still around chumming it up with Tyrion. I get the feeling next week will be a similar "checking in on everyone" type of episode, since a large portion of the cast went unseen last night, and no new characters were really introduced.

[Kurosawa Fan]

It was a premiere full of pure set up, and next episode probably will be too. Unfortunately, when you've read the books and are waiting for the cool shit to happen, this can make it feel a bit uneventful/boring. I imagine that episode worked a lot better for newbies, and I still enjoyed having the show finally back. I'm glad they're giving Dany some proactivity right out of the gates, and I love the fact that Bronn is still around chumming it up with Tyrion. I get the feeling next week will be a similar "checking in on everyone" type of episode, since a large portion of the cast went unseen last night, and no new characters were really introduced.

My wife has never read the books, and has no idea where the story is headed, and she was fairly disappointed with the opener. I have a feeling it was worse for newbies, who have been waiting for the show's return and were treated to reintroduction/setup. That has to be a bit frustrating if you don't know just how good it's going to get.

[ledfloyd]

I haven't read the books, and I thought it was a bit underwhelming. But, you know, dragons, and at this point I trust these guys. The Tywin/Tyrion scene was definitely the standout.

[Lucky]

I read an article over the recent episode comparing Lady Margaery to Princess Di. I like that. The actress really didn't make much of an impression on me last season, but I thought she had charisma to spare last night.

[Lucky]

Also, I'd say I missed seeing Jaime but I remembered they bled into his book 3 storyline last year. His and Brienne's journey is one of my most anticipated this season.

[Thirdmango]

My parents have gotten into genealogy lately and this has come up as allegedly being an actual family motto:


It always weirds me out that we have the same last name. It's mainly cause I always forget and then suddenly I see it again and I'm like, I didn't make that... what's going on. *Suspicious*

[[ETM]]

If this is uneventful, then I'm down with no events, forever. :D I love watching GoT with my girlfriend because even when it's just a conversation on screen, there's so much there to see - costumes, set design, cinematography, and we're both into all of that... it's a treasure trove, every episode, and I simply can't get enough of it.

[slqrick]

I feel like they really stepped it up a notch in that premiere in terms of CGI for some of those settings. Maybe it's just that they used the money on that episode to establish those places for the rest of the season, but even King's Landing had a much more sweeping, widescreen feel to it. Even small moments like Bronn and Tyrion walking around and talking.

[[ETM]]

Almost all of the external shots in King's Landing were done on location in Dubrovnik, so it has to look authentic. :D

[Dukefrukem]

90944 seeders on PB. Holy crap.

[Dukefrukem]

Yup. Uneventful. Glad I watched Walking Dead over this last night. I will probably let a few of these queue up until MC says tells me some crazy ass shit is happening. I think I went through the first two seasons in less than a week. Wish I could tear through this season too.

[Watashi]

We can't have shadow demons coming out of vaginas in every episode.

This is the first time I'm going into a season blind. I've been reading each book before the season started, but decided to watch the show first before I started the 3rd book because I want to be surprised when all the "oh shit" moments happen.

I liked this episode. Sansa looks like she grew even taller.

[Derek]

I have nothing of use to say about tonight's decent pipe-layery, so I'll just say that I want Jon Snow and Danaryes [sic] to get married and have fire-and-ice babies.

There's a pretty solid theory out there that Jon and Daenerys are brother and sister. I think the show has just the right amount of incest already. :)

[Derek]

Sansa looks like she grew even taller.

I enjoyed my friend's groan when Sansa finally showed up. That is the correct response.

Can't wait for Arya and the Jaime/Brienne story to take off so people can see what an awesome character Jaime really is.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I enjoyed my friend's groan when Sansa finally showed up. That is the correct response.


Ain't this the truth. I dread her scenes. Petulant, sniveling brat.

[Raiders]

I see nothing wrong with the episode at all. There has to be discussions and maneuvering so that big events can happen. If you just had each episode be some kind of "event" then pretty soon it would seem boring and monotonous. It's the life each of these characters lead and how each of them is on their own seemingly disconnected tale that makes it such an excellent series; they really give the breadth of the land and the different points each character is in for their particular tale.

Plus, the dialogue and characters are so expertly made and the show wallows so little in contrived drama that it feels very refreshing. Too many series find the need to get all their characters together and have little self-contained stories to give DRAMA each week. This is one of the few that takes its time and pleasure in having each episode be just another piece in the overriding arc, filled with short character moments that come to paint a very defined and specific view of the story that is unfolding.

This is why something like "Blackwater" was so momentous last season. It had been building over episodes and short dialogue scenes and when it hit, in its uninterrupted battle, it was gloriously cathartic to the build-up that had been sustained.

[[ETM]]

Sansa looks like she grew even taller.

She's taller than Littlefinger.

[Dukefrukem]

Season IV picked up.

[Lucky]

Not that the show was in jeopardy of cancellation by any stretch of the imagination, but knowing how this season will end would have made it a terrible ending to a show had it been axed.

[Lazlo]

Really enjoyed this episode. The new characters (Olenna, the Reeds) were handled great and catching up with Arya was kick-ass as usual.

The most impressive moment was even a departure from the book: Catelyn's speech about Jon was incredible. Great work by Fairley, strong writing; really opened a different emotional window through which to look at the character.

[[ETM]]

Agreed, splendid character work. Other departures from the book were also handled well, like the introduction of the Reeds.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The most impressive moment was even a departure from the book: Catelyn's speech about Jon was incredible. Great work by Fairley, strong writing; really opened a different emotional window through which to look at the character.

YES, which was definitely a nice surprise since Catelyn in A Storm of Swords was sort of insufferable and unlikeable.

[Wryan]

Heh, that's funny, because I've seen/heard a few people who hated that speech and the changes they are making to her character. Granted, fuck all do I care since I haven't read the book. I think she's allowed to have conflicting feelings inside her about that character. The first/second season already established some of the reasons why she would feel negatively, so I thought it was fine to see the more positive side.

Also, I really liked this episode. The bridge sword fight wasn't the most accomplished I've ever seen, but it packed a whallop because of the characters.

[Wryan]

Still one of my favorite scenes in a show filled with amazing scenes:


http://youtu.be/47MazYDnmaU

[Raiders]

Good episode, and yes, good speech by Catelyn. The Shae / Tyrion scene was painful though. It served ultimately no purpose other than Shae being concerned and made weird accusations toward Tyrion that just seemed bizarre (and knowing the books makes it seem weirder), and jealous is not a good color for Shae. Didn't seem very sincere.

[Wryan]

Okay, what's going on with YouTube embeddings? Sometimes I see them work on messageboards, and sometimes they just seem to be frozen images, nonclickable. It seems (to me, on my screen) that my video above is not embedding from YouTube. Anyone know what's going on or how to fix it?

[Kurosawa Fan]

It's working fine for me. You are using the [video] tag and not the [youtube] tag, correct?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Good episode, and yes, good speech by Catelyn. The Shae / Tyrion scene was painful though. It served ultimately no purpose other than Shae being concerned and made weird accusations toward Tyrion that just seemed bizarre (and knowing the books makes it seem weirder), and jealous is not a good color for Shae. Didn't seem very sincere.

TOTALLY agree with this.

It's such a telegraphed moment, but it also brings a heavy dose of creepiness from Tyrion for what's to follow. Bizarre choice when Catelyn was handled so well.

[Wryan]

It's working fine for me. You are using the [video] tag and not the [youtube] tag, correct?

You can click on it and it plays? Well, what the hell? Yeah, using the video tag. Hmmm...I really dunno.

[Kurosawa Fan]

You can click on it and it plays? Well, what the hell? Yeah, using the video tag. Hmmm...I really dunno.

Yep, plays just fine.

[Fezzik]

In both previous seasons, Episode 9 is when the hammer has dropped.

This season, Episode 9 is entitled "The Rains of Castemere"

I'll leave it at that.

[Lazlo]

I love Jaime Lannister's arc (having only read through the fourth book) and I love how the show's telling it. Great closing scene tonight.

[Lucky]

That ending was very True Blood-esque. Credit song included.

[slqrick]

Loved that ending, and the whole episode. And that Hold Steady cover makes me want to slosh around a cavern with mead in my hand.

book spoilers
Blackfish! The Bastard! Jaimes hand! etc

I think rest of the season is set up to go fairly balls to the walls.

[Sxottlan]

Of the three episodes of the season so far, this was the best. Unexpectedly humorous (the botched funeral pyre, the jockeying for seating around Tywin, the squire doing such a good job that the prostitutes refund his money) and then takes a dark turn in the closing minutes.

And some kind of Celtic punk song to play us out? Would have never expected something like that from this show.

My only issue so far this season: the five minutes of update on any one given storyline each week before the episode moves on to something else. Feels like everything is moving extra slow, but I recall someone saying this season was just the first half of the third book.

Seriously, that squire is like some kind of secret weapon. He's bad-ass.

[Qrazy]

Credit song was idiotic, rest of the ep was good.

[Watashi]

I want a spin-off show featuring Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy.

[[ETM]]

I want a spin-off show featuring Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy.

I want a spinoff where Tyrion and Bronn start a male whore house, starting with Pod.

[Dukefrukem]

Now that I have HBO for free I caught up last night.

What a fantastic way to end episode 3.

[Dead & Messed Up]

In retrospect, that last image felt like penance for the rest of the show not having a heck of a lot happen. Which is par for the course right now, with all the plot juggling and what-have-you.

My eye is on Danaerys's power play. Can't wait.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Such a phenomenal scene to end this week's episode. Still, I'm really not as taken with this season as I'd hoped to be, and a lot of it has to do with the scant amount of time spent with specific characters on a per episode basis. Case in point: not a single scene with Jon Snow this episode. I have a feeling this entire season, and probably subsequent seasons, would play much better burning through them in a couple days rather than waiting a week between eps.

[Thirdmango]

Yes, that final 10 minutes was worth the slowness of this season. I really want to start reading the books.

[Henry Gale]

Now that's an episode. Maybe the best a first half of a season has dished out so far.

I realize the reaction from those who've read the books has been and will continue to be that I ain't seen nothin' yet, but I haven't read them, so needless to say I'm just deeply excited overall.

Side note, was anyone else expecting Bran to be pushed out of the tree by the ghost of Jaime's hand?

[slqrick]

Such a phenomenal scene to end this week's episode. Still, I'm really not as taken with this season as I'd hoped to be, and a lot of it has to do with the scant amount of time spent with specific characters on a per episode basis. Case in point: not a single scene with Jon Snow this episode. I have a feeling this entire season, and probably subsequent seasons, would play much better burning through them in a couple days rather than waiting a week between eps.

This is how the books were (I know, show is completely different etc), but it's really the best way for them to handle a narrative this massive. I'd rather the showrunners not feel the need to shoehorn in characters into an episode just to do it, because then it ends up being like what we got last season with those awful Dany scenes that were just spinning the wheels. I think they're handling it pretty well this season and they're trusting the audience...it's an expectation at this point with the increasingly big cast that we won't be seeing some characters in certain episodes.

A terrific episode all around.

[Lucky]

Varys had a couple great scenes here and would have stolen the episode for me had Daenerys not had her moment. Emilia Clarke can speak solely in High Valyrian from now on as far as I'm concerned.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Two fantastic episode endings in a row. Every step closer Danaerys is to the rest of the kingdom is a step closer to my Jon/Danaerys shipping.

[Acapelli]

http://i.imgur.com/xtIsRRJ.gif

really wanted simon to be a good guy

[Raiders]

http://i.imgur.com/xtIsRRJ.gifReally wanted simon to be a good guy

I'm struggling with who this is... you mean Ramsay Snow (just in case you haven't read and don't want to know--not much of a spoiler though)? They haven't confirmed his name yet, but it's pretty obvious. Especially now. I was pretty convinced last episode.

In general I thought it was a silly sequence. It's like Joffrey wasn't villainous enough, now we need someone who will literally traipse all over the north just to be cruel. EEEEEVIIILLLL.

[Acapelli]

seems to me (based on others' readings of the situation) is that it was a roundabout way to get the information that he wasn't providing under duress

it also seems like he is totally insane

and since i'm not clicking that spoiler, simon was his character's name in misfits

[ledfloyd]

Nice slow clap from the unsullied there at the end.

I'm out and out rooting for Danaerys at this point.

[slqrick]

I'm struggling with who this is... you mean Ramsay Snow (just in case you haven't read and don't want to know--not much of a spoiler though)? They haven't confirmed his name yet, but it's pretty obvious. Especially now. I was pretty convinced last episode.

In general I thought it was a silly sequence. It's like Joffrey wasn't villainous enough, now we need someone who will literally traipse all over the north just to be cruel. EEEEEVIIILLLL.

Yup, that's him. Things are about to get real nasty in the North. Theon's story was circular in that he didn't get anywhere other than back to where he started, but I thought it provided some really great bits of acting, so I didn't mind it.

[[ETM]]

Emilia Clarke can speak solely in High Valyrian from now on as far as I'm concerned.

She's remarkably fluent. I don't think I've ever heard someone pull off a fictional language so convincingly before, both Valyrian and Dothraki.

[ledfloyd]

Ep. 4 spoilers

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/934143_444641058957076_1224635 146_n.jpg

[Wryan]

seems to me (based on others' readings of the situation) is that it was a roundabout way to get the information that he wasn't providing under duress

This is how I read it. A way of testing him and his loyalty to his father or family. And also to suss out some specific answers. I haven't read the books yet, though.

I saw Dany's turnabout coming, but it was still pretty clever. I was pretty sad for Mormont. He was so awesome. :(

[Lazlo]

This season continues to be insanely great. "Kissed By Fire" is such an amazing episode. Kingslayer for MVP.

[Fezzik]

Kingslayer for MVP.

NKW is killing it this season. Granted, Jaime's arc is one of the best things about Book 3, but dammit, he's just revelling in his opportunity. I think he's the GOT actor that's going to get award attention this season.

[Watashi]

Game of Dat Ass.

[Qrazy]

This is how I read it. A way of testing him and his loyalty to his father or family. And also to suss out some specific answers. I haven't read the books yet, though.

I saw Dany's turnabout coming, but it was still pretty clever. I was pretty sad for Mormont. He was so awesome. :(

I think even moreso it was a way for him to orchestrate a situation where he could kill those men who were initially sent to capture the prisoner, men who were presumably his enemies. True born enemies in the family that any bastard would have.

[Lucky]

The score at the end of this episode was beautiful. Last five minutes of the episode were pretty stellar.

[Qrazy]

So it was said that book 3 had been split in two for season 3 but as far as I can tell we're more or less on track to complete it. Perhaps just a few storylines will be pushed into season 4?

[slqrick]

Really glad that they've managed to make the Jon/Ygritte romance something much more worthwhile than it was in the book. Their arc in this episode was my favorite. I'm getting tired of the Theon stuff though, I like that they're establishing the character torturing him, but I wish there was something else they could do other than torture porn.

[Raiders]

So it was said that book 3 had been split in two for season 3 but as far as I can tell we're more or less on track to complete it. Perhaps just a few storylines will be pushed into season 4?

I gotta think Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion's trial, a lot of the stuff at the wall with Mance Rayder, Dany at Meereen will all be held off for season 4. I could potentially see the wedding being the last episode, but I think the Red Wedding would be enough wedding drama for one season, especially for back-to-back episodes.

[Qrazy]

I gotta think Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion's trial, a lot of the stuff at the wall with Mance Rayder, Dany at Meereen will all be held off for season 4. I could potentially see the wedding being the last episode, but I think the Red Wedding would be enough wedding drama for one season, especially for back-to-back episodes.

There's 4 more episodes though how can all that stuff be pushed to Season 4? What would you put in there instead? Also if they want to get fancy they could intercut the two weddings.

I have to think we're going to see Joffrey's wedding this season given that we've had a scene discussing the cost of the wedding. I also think that Dany will discover the betrayal this season because that's been foreshadowed as well. Maybe they will hold off on the wall fight with Rayder but if the Red Wedding is next episode then the wall fight would be a good season capper. So far every season has had a major battle near the end. The Red Wedding is a slaughter but not really a battle in the way the wall fight is.

[Qrazy]

Okay after reading the short plot synopses it looks like...

We are getting the Red Wedding on Episode 9 and Joffrey's wedding on episode 10. The fight at the wall looks to have been pushed to Season Four.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I don't think the Theon storyline could be more pointless or less enjoyable to return to every episode. Tonight was a new low.

Otherwise, solid ep.

[Watashi]

That was a George RR Martin episode alright.

[ledfloyd]

I don't think the Theon storyline could be more pointless or less enjoyable to return to every episode. Tonight was a new low.

Otherwise, solid ep.
Yeah, it's almost as torturous as what he's being subjected to. Godawful.

[[ETM]]

That was a George RR Martin episode alright.

Indeed. That man just can't help himself.

[Watashi]

I purposely spoiled myself on the Red Wedding.

Kinda glad I did actually.

[[ETM]]

I was spoiled as well. They're building up to it nicely. The internet will melt, that's for sure.

[Lucky]

Out of curiosity, why the on purpose spoil?

[Watashi]

Out of curiosity, why the on purpose spoil?

I was originally spoiled on Cat's death when I was first started reading the books. I had a sneaking suspicion that Rob would die too, so I just checked out if I was right. I don't think it ruins my enjoyment of the season. As soon as Season 3 began everyone was flipping out about a big huge HOLY SHIT moment that would end the series.

[ledfloyd]

I think I had a major event spoiled by a douchebag on reddit, but I'm not going to go poking around to find out for sure.

[Fezzik]

;478745']I was spoiled as well. They're building up to it nicely. The internet will melt, that's for sure.

It will. and I cant WAIT. :D

[Derek]

Funniest moment of the season so far...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBGONxj9njc

[Qrazy]

Good ep, the diversions from the book continue to be well thought out.

[[ETM]]

Dammit, Tarley, pick it up before you run!

[Kurosawa Fan]

;479305']Dammit, Tarley, pick it up before you run!

:lol:

My thoughts exactly. I really can't stand Samwell. They just make him so unlikeable.

[Qrazy]

:lol:

My thoughts exactly. I really can't stand Samwell. They just make him so unlikeable.

No? I like him a lot. He's a screw up but the actor playing him is doing a very good job. This show/series is all about character arcs making people harder anyway. He'll become less of a screw up with time. He already has to be honest.

[Russ]

My thoughts exactly. I really can't stand Samwell. They just make him so unlikeable.


No? I like him a lot. He's a screw up but the actor playing him is doing a very good job. This show/series is all about character arcs making people harder anyway. He'll become less of a screw up with time. He already has to be honest.
Yeah, he's actually one of my favorite characters on the show. He's quite dim, but you see him becoming a bit less dim with each episode. Unlikeable is hardly the word I'd use to describe him.

[Irish]

I really like Sam too. He started out as something of a comic sidekick, to make Jon Snow look better, but now I appreciate him because he's one of the few characters who seems to have an actual arc, or the possibility of an arc.

I didn't much like what they had him doing in this episode, though. Too often the show seems to lift short moments from the books to pack a little punch into an episode (Cersei's "nobody cares what your father said" line, Tyrion's threat to Joffrey, Sam versus the ice wraith thing). While they're good moments, they often lack and larger context and depth. The scenes are so short it feels like drama for the ADD set.

Disclaimer: I have to admit the show hooked me with Jaime Lannister this past season. Any episode that doesn't have him isn't as interesting to me.

[Kurosawa Fan]

No? I like him a lot. He's a screw up but the actor playing him is doing a very good job. This show/series is all about character arcs making people harder anyway. He'll become less of a screw up with time. He already has to be honest.

He's a screw up and a whiner. He's about as grating as it gets. Yes, he has an arc, and yes, I can already tell he'll play an integral role in the future of the series, but for now he's (aside from Theon) the character I least enjoy returning to on the show.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I really like Sam too. He started out as something of a comic sidekick, to make Jon Snow look better, but now I appreciate him because he's one of the few characters who seems to have an actual arc, or the possibility of an arc.

I didn't much like what they had him doing in this episode, though. Too often the show seems to lift short moments from the books to pack a little punch into an episode (Cersei's "nobody cares what your father said" line, Tyrion's threat to Joffrey, Sam versus the ice wraith thing). While they're good moments, they often lack and larger context and depth. The scenes are so short it feels like drama for the ADD set.

Disclaimer: I have to admit the show hooked me with Jaime Lannister this past season. Any episode that doesn't have him isn't as interesting to me.

Completely disagree with you here. I thought those two moments had a ton of context and depth, built up not only this season but in seasons prior. The animosity between Tyrion and Joffrey, and now Tyrion and his entire family, has been growing steadily, and being forced into this marriage with Sansa, being ridiculed by every member of his own family, and having no one recognize his value or defend his position, is reaching a breaking point. That moment at his wedding was the summation of that, and it played brilliantly.

As for Cercei, hers is more immediate, but the overriding theme for her this season has been the loss of control over Joffrey and his lack of respect for her, someone she so fervently protected throughout the first two seasons, and her frustration at the limitations of power allowed to her gender. She was nearly married to Loris, which was humiliating enough for her, but to then be turned down by him (rather than allowing her the satisfaction of being the one rejecting the marriage) because of her past was more than she can stomach. Again, another moment that was brief, but packed a great punch.

[Irish]

I thought those two moments had a ton of context and depth, built up not only this season but in seasons prior.

Only if you're binge-watching or have read the books. I think these moments are much less effective when played in thirty second bursts over a period of weeks and months.

The show has so many characters now, and keeps adding new ones, that few of them get significant screen time. I bet Loras, for example, has been on the show less than ten minutes total. And that's over two seasons' worth of episodes. That makes it more difficult to care about him as a character, or his place in this world, and so Cersei's snub at the balcony ends up meaning less that it may have in the novels.

As for Tyrion, his position hasn't changed much. He's decidedly less care free (but then, isn't everyone after season one?), but the amount of disdain his family members display for him is the same as it was before. The cruel gag Joffrey pulled with the stepping stool could have easily happened a year ago, or more.

I'm not saying there aren't great moments -- Tyrion pulling a knife and making threats had me sitting up and leaning forward -- but the way the episodes are structured, almost in opposition to the novels, makes these moments seem disconnected and almost muted.

[Raiders]

Only if you're binge-watching or have read the books. I think these moments are much less effective when played in thirty second bursts over a period of weeks and months.

The show has so many characters now, and keeps adding new ones, that few of them get significant screen time. I bet Loras, for example, has been on the show less than ten minutes total. And that's over two seasons' worth of episodes. That makes it more difficult to care about him as a character, or his place in this world, and so Cersei's snub at the balcony ends up meaning less that it may have in the novels.

As for Tyrion, his position hasn't changed much. He's decidedly less care free (but then, isn't everyone after season one?), but the amount of disdain his family members display for him is the same as it was before. The cruel gag Joffrey pulled with the stepping stool could have easily happened a year ago, or more.

I'm not saying there aren't great moments -- Tyrion pulling a knife and making threats had me sitting up and leaning forward -- but the way the episodes are structured, almost in opposition to the novels, makes these moments seem disconnected and almost muted.


Agreed about Loras-- hell, I forgot about the almost-wedding-- but not about Tyrion. His stature amongst his family was much different in Season 2. They all loathed him as much, but he wasn't marginalized or kicked around as seen fit. The war keeping his father away made him Hand, and he was the biggest reason that King's Landing was held and Stannis defeated. His opinions mattered and he held sway. Then, just as quickly as he triumphed, he was defeated and pushed into the corners of the capital city and forgotten about. His wedding is strategic yes, but also a cruel joke/fate and tarnishes the one thing he has solace in (his relationship with Shae) and his duties as "master of coin" are a slap in the face. As Olenna stated in their meeting, he is now only a shadow of his former self: a defeated and whipped bookkeeper.

His outburst stemmed directly from that and was a great, unhinged moment.

[Wryan]

Wait a minute, did I miss something? I thought Cersei and Loras were still heading toward the altar at some point? Last I remember was the great Olenna/Tywin conversation in which he threatened to put him in the King's Guard if she didn't comply. Also, this last episode was fantastic. Two weeks!? Argh.

[Ivan Drago]

:lol:

My thoughts exactly. I really can't stand Samwell. They just make him so unlikeable.

Neither can I. He's a poor man's Samwise Gamgee.

So tell me, why is there a two-week wait for the next episode?

[Lazlo]

Wait a minute, did I miss something? I thought Cersei and Loras were still heading toward the altar at some point? Last I remember was the great Olenna/Tywin conversation in which he threatened to put him in the King's Guard if she didn't comply. Also, this last episode was fantastic. Two weeks!? Argh.

Yeah, really. Just before the "No one cares what your father said" scene Olenna was talking about the absurd family tree that would exist between the Lannisters and the Tyrells when Joffrey, Margaery, Cersei, and Loras were all married, respectively. Loras and Cersei aren't happy about their arrangement, but it's still on.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, really. Just before the "No one cares what your father said" scene Olenna was talking about the absurd family tree that would exist between the Lannisters and the Tyrells when Joffrey, Margaery, Cersei, and Loras were all married, respectively. Loras and Cersei aren't happy about their arrangement, but it's still on.

Shit, I forgot about that. My mistake. Well, it makes her moment even better.

[Wryan]

Shit, I forgot about that. My mistake. Well, it makes her moment even better.

Yeah, that was probably one of my favorite Cersei moments to date, even though I don't particularly like Headey's acting nor the character. Just so perfect. I think her best is still the scene when she's talking to Robert about their marriage and his love for Lyanna.

[Wryan]

Neither can I. He's a poor man's Samwise Gamgee.

So tell me, why is there a two-week wait for the next episode?

Memorial Day, I presume. And Tarley is growing on me. I like his earnest doofiness.

[Irish]

Agreed about Loras-- hell, I forgot about the almost-wedding-- but not about Tyrion. His stature amongst his family was much different in Season 2. They all loathed him as much, but he wasn't marginalized or kicked around as seen fit. The war keeping his father away made him Hand, and he was the biggest reason that King's Landing was held and Stannis defeated. His opinions mattered and he held sway. Then, just as quickly as he triumphed, he was defeated and pushed into the corners of the capital city and forgotten about.

Sorta. I agree and disagree.

I look at Tyrion a little differently, because unlike the rest of his family he's not status conscious. He doesn't pursue money or power for their own sake. He continually reminds people of his whoring, itinerant lifestyle. So I can't see the change from Hand to Coin bothering him all that much. (Except for the fact that it was a move forced by his father, and one meant to insult him and put him in his place.) The events of Blackwater Bay were just another exhibition of his loyalty; he's continually shown that he is more loyal to his family than they are to him. It's telling that he only mildly complained when his father rode into town and stole all the thunder, leaving him no accolades.

His outburst at the wedding might have been motivated by a sense of temporary humiliation and a broken heart. But I think a large part of it came from his need to protect the powerless, to, if you'll forgive the phrase, stick up for the little guy. He couldn't allow Sansa to get groped any more than The Hound could let her get raped (both of these characters share certain internal motivations which come straight out of their family background).

Then you have to consider his position versus Joffrey's. Tyrion observes etiquette but does not stand on ceremony (as he's a decent many living in a world that has no use for him). So it makes more sense to me that Tyrion would see Joff, in a moment of drunken self pity, as the brat he used to idly slap around in the Stark family stables and not the absolute king. It makes sense that, while everyone else is willing to pretend Joffrey is the king and act accordingly, Tyrion, in that moment, would forget to go along.

I don't think that scene was his "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" moment. The books, because of the way they're structured, might allow for that kind of gradual arc. But the show really doesn't. Half the details we're talking about happened thirty+ hours and over a year ago, after all.

I think it was a moment that came out of the same character traits he's been exhibiting from season one, episode one. (Which is one of the things that bugs me about his character. He has no hard, fast wants of his own and seems only to exist as an audience touchstone and story based foil for the rest of his family).

So. Yeah. Gripping scene but it has no other texture to me. These characters are acting as they almost always have, and nothing has changed in any larger, lasting sense (because Tyrion immediately retracts his threat once his father intervenes).

[Watashi]

Neither can I. He's a poor man's Samwise Gamgee.

So tell me, why is there a two-week wait for the next episode?

HBO is premiering Behind the Candelabra next week.

It also allows time to build up for THE episode.

[Benny Profane]

It's about time they brought the White Walkers back onto the screen. It's frustrating how they completely ignore this plot development. Guess we'll see them again in the final episode of the season and then they'll disappear for awhile.

Completely agree with K-Fan about Sam and Theon's storylines being brutal to watch. The crippled Stark kid has been boring as hell too. I agree with Irish that there are too many characters and very little progression on all except a few (mainly the Lannisters).

Still a decent show.

[Kurosawa Fan]

It's about time they brought the White Walkers back onto the screen. It's frustrating how they completely ignore this plot development. Guess we'll see them again in the final episode of the season and then they'll disappear for awhile.

Completely agree with K-Fan about Sam and Theon's storylines being brutal to watch. The crippled Stark kid has been boring as hell too. I agree with Irish that there are too many characters and very little progression on all except a few (mainly the Lannisters).

Still a decent show.

All of these reasons are why I'm abandoning the novels after I finish the third (I have about 150 pages left). If you think it's frustrating to juggle so many characters in the series, in book form it's excruciating. It'll be 300 pages between the story of a particular character, and it's almost always left on a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter. And the absence of the white walkers is a big issue as well. You don't kick off a series (I mean, they're the first characters introduced in A Game of Thrones) and then only bring them into the fold once or twice per 1000 page novel.

I'm just gonna let the series tell the story from here on out. I like the changes they're making. Martin's writing is certainly nothing worth staying for, and I've heard nothing but bad things about books four and five.

[Duncan]

Yeah I'm thinking of something like season 4 of The Wire where the cast is already huge but they introduce whole other echelons of society and the economy and precision with which that was handled. A lot of the scenes by that point in The Wire are literally less than 20 seconds long, but the quality of the writing, the way motifs and dialogue are echoed across different settings and the way it accesses our history with show make the whole city feel very organic and connected.

Then I look at something like this show and in comparison it feels like a sloppy, unwieldy mess of half-characters spread over some disparate land with little to connect them other then the promise of some great conflict down the line, somewhere, sometime, that will make the internet light up for a day or two but ultimately make all the time invested seem wasted.

[Qrazy]

All of these reasons are why I'm abandoning the novels after I finish the third (I have about 150 pages left). If you think it's frustrating to juggle so many characters in the series, in book form it's excruciating. It'll be 300 pages between the story of a particular character, and it's almost always left on a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter. And the absence of the white walkers is a big issue as well. You don't kick off a series (I mean, they're the first characters introduced in A Game of Thrones) and then only bring them into the fold once or twice per 1000 page novel.

I'm just gonna let the series tell the story from here on out. I like the changes they're making. Martin's writing is certainly nothing worth staying for, and I've heard nothing but bad things about books four and five.

Yeah I've been trying to get through book 4 for over a year now. It has all of those problems multiplied a dozen fold.

[Irish]

Yeah I'm thinking of something like season 4 of The Wire where the cast is already huge but they introduce whole other echelons of society and the economy and precision with which that was handled. A lot of the scenes by that point in The Wire are literally less than 20 seconds long, but the quality of the writing, the way motifs and dialogue are echoed across different settings and the way it accesses our history with show make the whole city feel very organic and connected.

Then I look at something like this show and in comparison it feels like a sloppy, unwieldy mess of half-characters spread over some disparate land with little to connect them other then the promise of some great conflict down the line, somewhere, sometime, that will make the internet light up for a day or two but ultimately make all the time invested seem wasted.

Well said. You've very directly hit on the two things that bug me most about this series. GRRM doesn't seem to be writing against any particular theme (as, you note, "The Wire" did) and that outside a few dramatic exclamations, not enough happens in any given episode.

The show is serialized in the extreme, always promising a certain payoff but then never quite delivering. (The last 3-4 episodes have all been talk-heavy, but with big, dramatic action in the last 10 minutes, cliffhanger style).

Question for the people who have read the books: Given that the nobility in Westeros stands so much on ceremony, how is it that the Lannisters are able to marry off somebody's fourteen year old daughter without their consent? It doesn't seek like that would fly, or that a Lannister claim to Winterfell could ever be seen as legitimate. I think that, on the show, it's a bit ridiculous that not only do none of the characters bat an eye at this, nobody even mentions it.

[slqrick]

Question for the people who have read the books: Given that the nobility in Westeros stands so much on ceremony, how is it that the Lannisters are able to marry off somebody's fourteen year old daughter without their consent? It doesn't seek like that would fly, or that a Lannister claim to Winterfell could ever be seen as legitimate. I think that, on the show, it's a bit ridiculous that not only do none of the characters bat an eye at this, nobody even mentions it.

At the moment, Winterfell is in ruins, and all the people that care about Sansa are scattered and nowhere to be found. No one gives a shit about her in King's Landing ultimately, aside from probably Littlefinger. There's not much anyone there can do to stop the Lannisters from doing what they want since they've got a hold on the south.

[Kurosawa Fan]

At the moment, Winterfell is in ruins, and all the people that care about Sansa are scattered and nowhere to be found. No one gives a shit about her in King's Landing ultimately, aside from probably Littlefinger. There's not much anyone there can do to stop the Lannisters from doing what they want since they've got a hold on the south.

This. Also, Tywin is aware of something else in the works that will only strengthen his cause and reduce opposition to this move.

[Russ]

This. Also, Tywin is aware of something else in the works that will only strengthen his cause and reduce opposition to this move.
To what move are you referring?

[Thirdmango]

So tell me, why is there a two-week wait for the next episode?

It's been sort of touched on but from what I've read the episodes are on the same track as they were last year. Because of this episode 9 which was the big moment last season fell on Memorial Day weekend and saw a pretty big drop in numbers. So this year they're skipping Memorial Day.

[Kurosawa Fan]

To what move are you referring?

Have you read the third book? This will spoil the end of this season if not.

Tywin was aware that Walder Frey was going to kill Rob and Catelyn.

[Russ]

Have you read the third book? This will spoil the end of this season if not.

Tywin was aware that Walder Frey was going to kill Rob and Catelyn.
I have not and I shall leave your spoiler where it lies, good sir. (thankyou anyway for the response)

[Irish]

At the moment, Winterfell is in ruins, and all the people that care about Sansa are scattered and nowhere to be found. No one gives a shit about her in King's Landing ultimately, aside from probably Littlefinger. There's not much anyone there can do to stop the Lannisters from doing what they want since they've got a hold on the south.

I get that -- although it's unclear to me if anyone in King's Landing knows Winterfell was sacked. More than that, though, forcing Sansa into a marriage while she's away from her family just seems preposterous given the social norms of this world.

[Russ]

forcing Sansa into a marriage while she's away from her family just seems preposterous given the social norms of this world.
And you feel that the social norms obsevered during the middle of a war are the same as those observed during peace-time?

[Irish]

And you feel that the social norms obsevered during the middle of a war are the same as those observed during peace-time?

Two problems there:

Rob and his mom are observing social norms in arranging a marriage in the middle of the war. I know the Lannisters are supposed to he eviiiiiiiiiil and all, but c'mon! It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

In the context of the show, you never see the war. They don't have the budget to do a battle every week (or hell, even show animals like horses very often!). Outside of Blackwater Bay from last season, the war has had no noticeable effect on anyone's life in King's Landing (in terms of inflation, lack of food, hardships, etc). So the war, from a dramatic point of view, just doesn't seek pressing enough to make this forced marriage seem plausible.

[Russ]

Two problems there:

Rob and his mom are observing social norms in arranging a marriage in the middle of the war. I know the Lannisters are supposed to he eviiiiiiiiiil and all, but c'mon! It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

In the context of the show, you never see the war. They don't have the budget to do a battle every week (or hell, even show animals like horses very often!). Outside of Blackwater Bay from last season, the war has had no noticeable effect on anyone's life in King's Landing (in terms of inflation, lack of food, hardships, etc). So the war, from a dramatic point of view, just doesn't seek pressing enough to make this forced marriage seem plausible.

Here's the difference: At this point in time, Rob and his mom aren't exactly in a position to be calling the shots. I guess I just have to disagree with your capsule assessment, 'cause the royal strategizing makes perfect sense to me. And are you implying that the fact that the show's budget doesn't allow battle scenes every week to mean that there's not really a war going on (although it's constantly alluded to every single week)? And, lest we forget, it's not really the ongoing war that is making the forced marriage seem plausible -- it's the manipulation of bloodlines by the the current powerholders (ie, those calling the shots). At least, that's what I thought this whole series was about.

I'm wrong?

[Derek]

the war has had no noticeable effect on anyone's life in King's Landing (in terms of inflation, lack of food, hardships, etc). So the war, from a dramatic point of view, just doesn't seek pressing enough to make this forced marriage seem plausible.

Really?? Were the Lannisters not established as by far the wealthiest family in all the seven kingdoms? And was Tyrion not just one or two weeks ago complaining to Lady Tyrell about barely being able to afford the royal wedding to which she begrudgingly agreed to split the costs. That's hardly a move a family with as much pride as the Lannisters would make without struggling. Then of course there was the scene last season where all the peasants just outside the castle tried to murder Joffrey and Cersei because of their living conditions. The noticeable effect has been referenced repeatedly over the course of the last two seasons.

[Qrazy]

Plus there are plenty of real world history examples of wars that weren't an endless series of battles. Plenty of wars only have a few major battles and the rest smaller skirmishes and objective capturing.

[Irish]

Here's the difference: At this point in time, Rob and his mom aren't exactly in a position to be calling the shots. I guess I just have to disagree with your capsule assessment, 'cause the royal strategizing makes perfect sense to me. And are you implying that the fact that the show's budget doesn't allow battle scenes every week to mean that there's not really a war going on (although it's constantly alluded to every single week)? And, lest we forget, it's not really the ongoing war that is making the forced marriage seem plausible -- it's the manipulation of bloodlines by the the current powerholders (ie, those calling the shots). At least, that's what I thought this whole series was about.

I mean the war carries less dramatic weight if is constantly occurs off-screen.

Manipulation is fine, but consider Tywin's plan for a sec. Originally, Sansa was a bargaining chip. A hostage. Now she's being married off without consent. In order for that to work, and for Sansa's offspring to have a legitimate claim to Winterfell, not only do the Lannisters have to win the war but they have to kill every member of Sansa's family, including Jon Snow. That's preposterous as plans go.

In a society with such a rigid caste system, it seems odd that not only they'd consider it but that other people would go along with it. Like, okay, you're taking a traitor' daughter into your family because ... Years and years from now it will give you claim to some northern shithole? If you're waging war and killing them all anyway, why not claim Winterfell by brute force and give it to a loyal retainer?

[Irish]

Really?? Were the Lannisters not established as by far the wealthiest family in all the seven kingdoms? And was Tyrion not just one or two weeks ago complaining to Lady Tyrell about barely being able to afford the royal wedding to which she begrudgingly agreed to split the costs. That's hardly a move a family with as much pride as the Lannisters would make without struggling. Then of course there was the scene last season where all the peasants just outside the castle tried to murder Joffrey and Cersei because of their living conditions. The noticeable effect has been referenced repeatedly over the course of the last two seasons.

Tyrion asked Lady Tyrell for help in his role as Master of Coin, because the Crown traditionally pays for royal weddings. He wasn't asking on behalf of his family and that scene wasn't an indication the Casterly Rock was in financial trouble. The government is broke, the Lannisters are not.

The show is about the nobility. You see a few glances of peasant life, but not very much. I'd argue that none of the nobility has been terribly inconvenienced. I'm talking about war as a disruptive force, a "war is hell" kind of way. You don't see much of that at all. Most of the characters have had ups and downs, some rougher than others, but on the whole it doesn't much feel like anyone has tightened a belt or struggled with basic necessities.

Certainly not enough to start abandoning social mores in a big way.

[Qrazy]

I mean the war carries less dramatic weight if is constantly occurs off-screen.

Manipulation is fine, but consider Tywin's plan for a sec. Originally, Sansa was a bargaining chip. A hostage. Now she's being married off without consent. In order for that to work, and for Sansa's offspring to have a legitimate claim to Winterfell, not only do the Lannisters have to win the war but they have to kill every member of Sansa's family, including Jon Snow. That's preposterous as plans go.

In a society with such a rigid caste system, it seems odd that not only they'd consider it but that other people would go along with it. Like, okay, you're taking a traitor' daughter into your family because ... Years and years from now it will give you claim to some northern shithole? If you're waging war and killing them all anyway, why not claim Winterfell by brute force and give it to a loyal retainer?

They want to kill every member. They think Bran, Rickon and Arya are all dead. Robb and Catelyn they certainly want dead. Didn't you hear Cersei's speech last episodes about the rains of castamere? The Lannisters have killed everyone in a family before and would have no qualms doing it again and setting up a puppet regime in the north via Sansa.

The show is called Game of Thrones for a reason. The overriding theme Martin is working with is the upper class playing a game of chess for greater power. Social mores are passing things here. The moral man is the first to die.

[Irish]

The Lannisters have killed everyone in a family before and would have no qualms doing it again and setting up a puppet regime in the north via Sansa.

You don't need Sansa to do any of that.

[Qrazy]

You don't need Sansa to do any of that.

It helps. If they were to kill Sansa now in cold blood they would distance their allies from them and/or give them an excuse to rebel themselves. The Tyrells and a number of other groups of people might side with Robb at that point. Bloodlines are extremely important in this series to everyone in the population. Marriage is the best means by which the Lannisters can lay claim to the north. If they just assumed control by force all of the surrounding lands and lords would rebel. Rebellions and wars happen a lot in this land. Mythologically historically speaking, peace is fairly rare.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Twitter is in full-on melt down mode right now. :lol:

[Raiders]

Making Talisa pregnant seems an unnecessary addition to the show. It puts an already disgusting event a little too sadistic. Not sure why they felt that necessary. And then the empty dedication to Ned, only to have her stabbed in the stomach. Yuck.

[Thirdmango]

I was accidentally spoiled to the ending of this episode about four weeks ago. Regardless, that is insane stuff.

[Qrazy]

I thought the Red Wedding was incredibly poorly handled, not impressed in the slightest.

[Henry Gale]

Well, there it is.

Having heard it referred to as The Red Wedding and such for so long, I was almost more tensed up during Tyrion's wedding, thinking shit was gonna go down then instead. So sadly, knowing this episode, like every 9th episode of a season, that this was the big one, and by storytelling process of elimination and giving those specific characters those tender moments beforehand, along with how Arya's journey was syncing up, I began preparing for it over the course of the episode.

But I liked it. Cold, brutal, and completely fitting. Maybe I'm just not that irked as a lot of other fans because I never felt particularly connected to the two key victims.

[Lucky]

I thought the Red Wedding was incredibly poorly handled, not impressed in the slightest.

It felt a bit Shakespearean stagey, and the closing shot was a poor choice. It was shot with shock value as the number one priority.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Making Talisa pregnant seems an unnecessary addition to the show. It puts an already disgusting event a little too sadistic. Not sure why they felt that necessary. And then the empty dedication to Ned, only to have her stabbed in the stomach. Yuck.

The naming thing was certainly sadistic on the part of the show runners, but I think the stabbing of the stomach, while gruesome, drove home for the viewer who hasn't read the books, that the heir to Winterfell was supposed to be a Frey, and that Rob's slight was the motivation behind Walder's actions.

I agree though that the entire scene was filmed with shock and horror in mind. Disappointing. Though, it had its intended effect. My wife is BAWLING. She had no idea what was coming.

[Qrazy]

It felt a bit Shakespearean stagey, and the closing shot was a poor choice. It was shot with shock value as the number one priority.

I just felt no sense of OMG as I did while reading the scene.

I didn't find the build up skillfully handled (they cut out the speech about the importance of having something to eat and drink or forcing the wolf to the kennel) and the murders left little impact on me. I think one of the main issues was that I"m pretty sure there was no music during the scene which is fine but then you have to do something a little more interesting with the sound design. The storyboarding for the scene also felt a bit haphazard and not all that purposive.

I laughed when Cat slit that girl's throat, it just looked so goofy.

[Lucky]

I just felt no sense of OMG as I did while reading the scene.

Well, to be fair you were anticipating it this time around.

Does anyone know if Joffrey's wedding will be included in the finale next week?

[Qrazy]

Well, to be fair you were anticipating it this time around.

Does anyone know if Joffrey's wedding will be included in the finale next week?

I'm leaning towards yes but I don't know. My guess is...

the season ends with Jon at the wall looking at the swarming mass of Wildlings beneath.

[Qrazy]

Well, to be fair you were anticipating it this time around.


Yeah but it still fell flat to me when compared with the build up and execution they gave for Ned's demise.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Agree with Qrazy about the food and drink omission. Big mistake, and strange they thought that was expendable.

As for the finale...

My guess is they don't tackle the wedding. We will see the desecration of the corpses, see despondent Arya, see King's Landing react (plus full admission from Tywin that he helped orchestrate the deed), see Tyrion have to tell Sansa and her reaction, see Bran cross the wall and Sam make his way back, and see the initial battle with the wildlings (as well as Ygritte's death). Season ends with the Stark survivors in turmoil, Mance Rayder's clan threatening from the north, and maybe a quick shot of Danerys. There just isn't enough time for Joffrey's wedding. Could be wrong though.

[slqrick]

I thought it was brutally efficient. The build up would have made it too obvious. Even though things felt ominous, when shit started hitting the fan it was over quick, which makes the most sense. I didn't find anything clunky about that. The wolf and eating for protection stuff is all implied and if they spelled it out more there would be less shock. I knew what to expect going in, but when it went down, I still felt it.

Tremendous episode.

[ledfloyd]

There was plenty of OMG to go around for me.

I mean... OMG.

[Wryan]

Are book readers being a little too critical here? I thought it was outrageous and shocking. Left a tremendous impact on me. I really look forward to what's coming. I just dunno at all where it's going to go from here, and I'm really pleased so far. I liked the build-up to the RW a lot.

I seriously freaked out at the baby impaling.

By "food and drink" stuff, do you mean there is a thing in the book about them--what?--sharing food and drink and thus symbolizing that they would be protected while there, only to have that rug pulled out? Is that what you mean? I took the scene when they were passing around the whatever-the-fuck-that-was (plus some ranch) to be that very kind of scene. It was too little food to be the "everyone's eating this (plus Walder Frey himself) to prove we're not poisoning you" idea, so it had to be symbolic.

[ledfloyd]

I actually had part of it spoiled.

Some jerk on reddit posted that Robb and Catelyn died in a bunch of threads that had nothing to do with Game of Thrones. Still, I had no idea how it happened. And... Jesus. The pregnancy actually added another layer to it for me. I was initially thinking "Oh, well Robb is going to die, but Talisa is going to live on and bear him a child," but then even that consolation was taken from me. Brutal.

[Gamblor]

They even killed the old coloured fella who played the organ.

[Watashi]

Is it wrong that I felt sadder for the direwolves?

[Ivan Drago]

A year ago, someone tried to spoil The Red Wedding for me. All he could say was "They wipe out..." So for the ENTIRE SEASON I thought the Lannisters were going to massacre the Tyrells at either Joffrey's wedding or Cersei's wedding to Loras. And Cersei telling Margaery the story of Tywin's massacre of House Reyne in the last episode made me go into this week's episode thinking my thoughts would be correct.

THEN THAT FUCKING HAPPENED.

[Qrazy]

Agree with Qrazy about the food and drink omission. Big mistake, and strange they thought that was expendable.

As for the finale...

My guess is they don't tackle the wedding. We will see the desecration of the corpses, see despondent Arya, see King's Landing react (plus full admission from Tywin that he helped orchestrate the deed), see Tyrion have to tell Sansa and her reaction, see Bran cross the wall and Sam make his way back, and see the initial battle with the wildlings (as well as Ygritte's death). Season ends with the Stark survivors in turmoil, Mance Rayder's clan threatening from the north, and maybe a quick shot of Danerys. There just isn't enough time for Joffrey's wedding. Could be wrong though.

It makes more sense to me that they won't do the wildling fight and would do the wedding. That fight is going to be very expensive to stage so I think we'll see it next season. I think they'll do the wedding because it brings closure to a lot of plot threads and also bounces back a bit from Robb and Cat's deaths to get to see Joff die.

[Barty]

The sheer horrible brutality of it all has made me sick to my stomach hours afterwords. Definitely emotionally effective.

[Acapelli]

can people who've read the books please preface their spoilers by saying they're book spoilers if they're things that have yet to happen on the show?

some asshole on my facebook posted a status with #redwedding and i while i didn't realize it at the time, once the actual wedding started i had an idea what was going to happen. fuck you

[Dead & Messed Up]

This one hurt.

[Acapelli]

also, i don't know, i may be the only one, but i really could not care less whether something on the show was handled better in the books

[Qrazy]

also, i don't know, i may be the only one, but i really could not care less whether something on the show was handled better in the books

Then let me rephrase. Even if the show were entirely original content I still would have found the scene mediocre in it's execution. Maybe I'll go through it point by point at a later date but for now.

1. I think showing the two throat slittings from that angle was a mistake. I found it absurd.
2. Quite a few not very compelling inserts of the stabbings.
3. Very little in the way of dramatic build up for the slaughter. This is an absolutely pivotal moment which the entire season has been building to and I did not feel the tension.
4. Questionable work from some of the thug-like extras.
5. The way they've handled Roose Bolton's character to date and his delivery of the Lannister line.
6. The sound design of the scene could have been improved in my eyes.

[Kurosawa Fan]

It makes more sense to me that they won't do the wildling fight and would do the wedding. That fight is going to be very expensive to stage so I think we'll see it next season. I think they'll do the wedding because it brings closure to a lot of plot threads and also bounces back a bit from Robb and Cat's deaths to get to see Joff die.

BOOK SPOILERS:

I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't think there's time to do his wedding. Look how much emphasis this wedding had on the episode. They would need to give equal attention to Joffrey's wedding, his death, Sansa slipping away, and the accusation of Tyrion, and with everything else they need to tackle before the end of the season, I just don't see it. Not unless the finale is more than an hour. The "On the Season Finale of..." clip that they showed after the episode showed events at the wall, events with Danaerys, Arya, etc. I'm really hoping they save Joffrey's wedding for next season, because otherwise it's going to feel too rushed.

[Qrazy]

BOOK SPOILERS:

I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't think there's time to do his wedding. Look how much emphasis this wedding had on the episode. They would need to give equal attention to Joffrey's wedding, his death, Sansa slipping away, and the accusation of Tyrion, and with everything else they need to tackle before the end of the season, I just don't see it. Not unless the finale is more than an hour. The "On the Season Finale of..." clip that they showed after the episode showed events at the wall, events with Danaerys, Arya, etc. I'm really hoping they save Joffrey's wedding for next season, because otherwise it's going to feel too rushed.

Ahh I didn't see that clip so you're probably right then.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Ahh I didn't see that clip so you're probably right then.

For those interested, the preview of the season finale:

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/index.html#/game-of-thrones/episodes/3/30-mhysa/video/preview.html/eNrjcmbO0CzLTEnNd8xLzKksyUx2zs 8rSa0oUc-PSYEJBSSmp-ol5qYy5zMXsjGyMXIyMrJJJ5aW5Bfk JFbalhSVpgIAXbkXOA==

[[ETM]]

On a somewhat lighter note - I kept wondering about the supposed combat skill of the Unsullied, and how a long spear and a shield in the hands of a warrior of slight build could be such a terrifying weapon, especially in close combat... I must say - Grey Worm has some mad skillz. That was simply awesome.

[Watashi]

If this would have been a Dothraki wedding, it would have been seen as a great success.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Don't watch if you haven't seen last night's episode. Here's a compilation of live reactions:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded& v=78juOpTM3tE

[shaun]

A good Twitter account...

https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears

[TGM]

I just felt no sense of OMG as I did while reading the scene.

I didn't find the build up skillfully handled (they cut out the speech about the importance of having something to eat and drink or forcing the wolf to the kennel) and the murders left little impact on me. I think one of the main issues was that I"m pretty sure there was no music during the scene which is fine but then you have to do something a little more interesting with the sound design. The storyboarding for the scene also felt a bit haphazard and not all that purposive.

I laughed when Cat slit that girl's throat, it just looked so goofy.

Pretty much completely agree. This was a disappointment, the scene fell completely flat in the show compared to how it was handled in the book.

[Watashi]

I think if the way they showed it in the book, it would just be overkill.

I mean do we really need to see Catelyn clawing at her facing hysterically?

[Watashi]

Don't watch if you haven't seen last night's episode. Here's a compilation of live reactions:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=78juOpTM3tE

I love how most of the reactions are from girls being recorded by their boyfriends. I bet most of them are not shocked over the character's death, but the fact that they won't see their heavenly angel, Richard Madden, again

[Raiders]

The scene was handled well I thought, and though a poor foundation of support, I think those people's reactions show that this was largely an effectively brutal, short and succinct massacre that changes so much of the show's complexity and was done so callously and disgustingly by those responsible. The only real problems I had were:

-They should have made it more obvious that it was the Rains of Castamere that was playing (I couldn't tell, just knew from the book)
-The lingering issue of Roose Bolton being too marginalized to make his final act and quip meaningful in any way.

[Qrazy]

The scene was handled well I thought, and though a poor foundation of support, I think those people's reactions show that this was largely an effectively brutal, short and succinct massacre that changes so much of the show's complexity and was done so callously and disgustingly by those responsible. The only real problems I had were:

-They should have made it more obvious that it was the Rains of Castamere that was playing (I couldn't tell, just knew from the book)
-The lingering issue of Roose Bolton being too marginalized to make his final act and quip meaningful in any way.

I could have made a similar montage to people watching The Butterfly Effect when that came out, it doesn't necessarily mean the scene was executed as skillfully as it could be.

[Raiders]

I could have made a similar montage to people watching The Butterfly Effect when that came out, it doesn't necessarily mean the scene was executed as skillfully as it could be.

Hence why I said it was a poor foundation of support. I still stand by what I said.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I could have made a similar montage to people watching The Butterfly Effect when that came out, it doesn't necessarily mean the scene was executed as skillfully as it could be.

No you couldn't. Not paired with the Twitter and Facebook meltdown as well. The scale of this moment far outweighs something as forgettable as The Butterfly Effect. I know you didn't like the execution, but let's not make ridiculous comparisons just for the sake of argument.

[Fezzik]

I love how most of the reactions are from girls being recorded by their boyfriends. I bet most of them are not shocked over the character's death, but the fact that they won't see their heavenly angel, Richard Madden, again

Damn, that's a little sexist, don't you think?

[[ETM]]

-They should have made it more obvious that it was the Rains of Castamere that was playing (I couldn't tell, just knew from the book)

I think it was pretty obvious from the first note. The song has been around enough, and episode 7 even ended with a similar instrumental rendition. I'd say the melody is by now instantly recognizable to most.

[Watashi]

Damn, that's a little sexist, don't you think?

Um... no? It's from having a lot of female friends who watch GoT.

[ledfloyd]

I picked up on The Rains of Castamere immediately. Have not read the books.

[slqrick]

;481300']I think it was pretty obvious from the first note. The song has been around enough, and episode 7 even ended with a similar instrumental rendition. I'd say the melody is by now instantly recognizable to most.

Yeah, they've been seeding it well all season. I do agree that Roose barely feels like a presence on the show, although that's kind of how it felt in the books to some extent (although I'm a bit foggy). The one change from the book I didn't like as much:

Why not keep it "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, they've been seeding it well all season. I do agree that Roose barely feels like a presence on the show, although that's kind of how it felt in the books to some extent (although I'm a bit foggy). The one change from the book I didn't like as much:

Why not keep it "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"?

I think it's because the show has begun Jaime's transformation. It would have sent mixed messages to the audience. In book form, when you spend so much time with the characters, it's easy to remember the direction Jaime is heading, especially because you have 400 pages left of book three at this point. In the season, the time spent with Jaime feels much shorter, and the audience would have an entire year to mull over "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

[Qrazy]

No you couldn't. Not paired with the Twitter and Facebook meltdown as well. The scale of this moment far outweighs something as forgettable as The Butterfly Effect. I know you didn't like the execution, but let's not make ridiculous comparisons just for the sake of argument.

Yeah you're right, I can't do something I didn't say I could do. I COULD however create a montage of people watching The Butterfly Effect and clasping their hands over their faces similar to the montage that was posted with the same number of such reactions. So essentially I can do precisely what I said I could do.

Or if you'd prefer I could do it for 2 Girls 1 Cup but I think others have beaten me to it. My point is that a montage of reactions to a shocking scene is in no way shape or form a qualitative argument for the value of the execution of that scene and Raiders has acknowledged as much.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah you're right, I can't do something I didn't say I could do. I COULD however create a montage of people watching The Butterfly Effect and clasping their hands over their faces similar to the montage that was posted with the same number of such reactions. So essentially I can do precisely what I said I could do.

Or if you'd prefer I could do it for 2 Girls 1 Cup but I think others have beaten me to it. My point is that a montage of reactions to a shocking scene is in no way shape or form a qualitative argument for the value of the execution of that scene and Raiders has acknowledged as much.

Not going to debate you on this, but you're being really reductive and you know it (or you didn't actually watch the video). It's much more than people putting their hands over their mouths. There were people crying, people saying they felt physically ill, people saying they'd never watch again. Go put together a montage of genuine reactions similar to that about The Butterfly Effect and I'll rep you every day for a year.

[ledfloyd]

Best reaction vid:

https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh

[Irish]

There were people crying, people saying they felt physically ill, people saying they'd never watch again.

They opened that sequence with a shot of a pregnant woman getting repeatedly stabbed in the belly. On prime time television. Of course people are going to have a visceral reaction. That scene had all the trappings and bad taste of a gorno-driven horror movie.

The creepy old dude was a non-character. His motivations were thin, unknown to the audience, and had no build up. (So much so that it had to be explained away in dialogue by a walk-on character: "The Lannisters say blah-blah." "Mommy!" *thud*)

Arbitrary character death might be shocking in the moment, but it's not good drama. Martin could have killed any character in the story at this point. It would have been just as shocking, and just as meaningless.

That said: Thank God Robb and Catelyn are dead. In the larger context of the show, they were useless characters. I did like the way this episode avoided showing any Lannisters at all, and the way several characters are physically close to each other in the first time in what must be months, but few of them realize it.

I also thought Jon Snow's choice was worlds more interesting, at a character and dramatic level, than anything that happened to Robb and Catelyn.

[Acapelli]

;481300']I think it was pretty obvious from the first note. The song has been around enough, and episode 7 even ended with a similar instrumental rendition. I'd say the melody is by now instantly recognizable to most.
etm i think you overestimate most people's ability to recognize instrumental music

[Wryan]

The creepy old dude was a non-character. His motivations were thin, unknown to the audience, and had no build up. (So much so that it had to be explained away in dialogue by a walk-on character: "The Lannisters say blah-blah." "Mommy!" *thud*)

At this point, there's no conclusive proof that the Lannisters had much to do with this turnabout directly other than Bolton saying seriously what Jaime had already asked him to say in jest. As far as I read it, this was pretty much solely and directly because House Stark went back on its word to take one of Frey's daughters in marriage to the impending king. If Cat protested that Walder Frey would take a weather-driven delay as a slight, this is clearly something that ate at him at a deeper level, especially given the conversation Frey had with Cat (about her family always treating his like they were nothing) back when she promised Robb would marry a Frey daughter so they could cross the Trident. I'm not sure how you could say his motivations were nebulous or that there was no build-up. He's a bitter old lecherous fuck--it's possible that he'd been waiting for a long time for such an opportunity, and it's also possible that it will be revealed that the Lannisters paid him and/or promised him an alliance. I'm more interested to see how the rest of the families of this world treat House Frey now that he's done such a thing. How can anyone ever really trust him/them again?

[Wryan]

etm i think you overestimate most people's ability to recognize instrumental music

I got it instantly and found it chilling. I had to explain it to my roommate, who did not.

[Derek]

Not going to debate you on this, but you're being really reductive and you know it (or you didn't actually watch the video). It's much more than people putting their hands over their mouths. There were people crying, people saying they felt physically ill, people saying they'd never watch again. Go put together a montage of genuine reactions similar to that about The Butterfly Effect and I'll rep you every day for a year.

Qrazy being reductive and overstating a negative opinion? Pshaw I say, good sir!

I do think the prison-style shiv to belly was in bad taste and meant only to shock, but aside from that, it never felt excessive in its goriness especially when compared to the book. Comparing its dramatic buildup to Ned's execution is silly since in that situation, the audience is in on it the whole time. They're aware of Cersei's motivations and Ned's sense of honor and dramatically, these two have an effective build up to the execution scene where the shock is that Joffrey goes back on his (mother's) word. The Red Wedding, in the book and the show, was a shock in an entirely different way because at no point was their the threat of violence in the situation itself, so obviously the dramatic build up isn't going to be as effective b/c it's not meant to be. The motivations only become clear in retrospect (though to be fair, they did include some hints to Tywin's involvement in the show as well, along with Jaime's comment to Roose in an earlier episode) because if it's foreshadowed too much, it would lose all of its dramatic effect. As it was, it wasn't exactly stunningly crafted, but it was effective enough. Not going to bother addressing complaints about extras, inserts or the camera angle of two individual until I hear one other human being echo those complaints.

Also, I remember nothing shocking about The Butterfly Effect. Like most people who saw it, I remember very little about it whatsoever. Not the case, I imagine, with the Red Wedding for people who didn't see it coming.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The prison shiv thing was awful, but I thought it made a perfect kind of sense, in the worst way possible. Frey made sure that the first thing he did was destroy the source of greatest personal offense - the child his family was denied when Robb broke the oath. It's a hideous moment, but I don't think it's solely a moment of shock.

If the hideousness of the act is so overwhelming that other facets of it hold little-to-no value for you, I get that.

[Derek]

The prison shiv thing was awful, but I thought it made a perfect kind of sense, in the worst way possible. Frey made sure that the first thing he did was destroy the source of greatest personal offense - the child his family was denied when Robb broke the oath. It's a hideous moment, but I don't think it's solely a moment of shock.

If the hideousness of the act is so overwhelming that other facets of it hold little-to-no value for you, I get that.

No, the other facets do hold value to me. I was only stating that I found it going a bit overboard, not that it ruined the rest of the scene for me. The fact that Robb's wife isn't pregnant in the book and she made the point of suggesting they name the child Ned just before the murders suggests to me that the writers were setting that moment up as the penultimate shock of the series and while it is related to the Rob's affront to the Frey's, it's an unnecessary addition since a King going back on his word to marry one of your daughters is more than offensive enough in that world to justify those consequences. I'm not offended by it at all, just think it's a mistake in excess that occasionally cause the show, and in other cases the books, to stumble.

[ledfloyd]

The creepy old dude was a non-character. His motivations were thin, unknown to the audience, and had no build up. (So much so that it had to be explained away in dialogue by a walk-on character: "The Lannisters say blah-blah." "Mommy!" *thud*)

Arbitrary character death might be shocking in the moment, but it's not good drama. Martin could have killed any character in the story at this point. It would have been just as shocking, and just as meaningless.
Walder Frey was only a non-character if you haven't been paying attention to the show the last few seasons. The fact that I know his name, and I had to look up Robb's wife's name, suggests that he's at least somewhat noteworthy.

He picked Robb for a pretty specific reason. When he killed Ned in the first season it was because Ned was the only moral character in the show's universe. He wasn't allowing the audience someone that easy to root for. It's only natural you would assume, in a traditional narrative, the son would rise up and take revenge on those who killed his father, but here Martin is denying us even that catharsis.

[Irish]

I'm not sure how you could say his motivations were nebulous or that there was no build-up. He's a bitter old lecherous fuck--it's possible that he'd been waiting for a long time for such an opportunity, and it's also possible that it will be revealed that the Lannisters paid him and/or promised him an alliance.

In a novel, you can have a minor character disappear and still be dramatically interesting. They can be the focus of other character's interior monologues and off-hand, running dialogue while they're not physically present in any scene (eg: Boo Radley in "To Kill a Mockingbird" and Jay Gatsby in "The Great Gatsby").

But that's not quite possible in the same way with visual mediums. Extended dialogue about off-screen characters is often confusing if they don't appear soon afterwards (eg Sean Regan in "The Maltese Falcon"). If there's too big a gap between appearances, their actions seem arbitrary, the outcomes contrived, and the audience feels the denoument "came out of nowhere."

On this show, Frey is little more than a walk-on character. He's had two big scenes and those were separated by a year or more and nobody has talked about him outside the requirements of the current episode. So the problem is that he's got no connection to anything we've been watching all season. His actions have no dramatic heft behind them.


I'm more interested to see how the rest of the families of this world treat House Frey now that he's done such a thing. How can anyone ever really trust him/them again?

The show largely ignores the lesser houses unless they're crucial to a certain plot point. I can't imagine this will change much.

What I can't figure out is why anyone trusts anyone on this show. Especially the Starks, because as soon as they do so they're betrayed (it's happened three times already). How do you get to be a powerful noble family while having such bad judgement?

As for Frey: He's so cavalier about his offspring that he can't even remember their names. He's glib when his wife's life is threatened. It wouldn't make any sense for him to commit such a vile betrayal for such a weak reason. If he did, is that the norm for this world or is it just because of the war? If it's the norm, then how was Robert, or anyone, able to unite the Seven Kingdoms any amount of time? If its because of the war, then why would anybody trust anyone?

[Irish]

Walder Frey was only a non-character if you haven't been paying attention to the show the last few seasons. The fact that I know his name, and I had to look up Robb's wife's name, suggests that he's at least somewhat noteworthy.

He's been in exactly two episodes, this one and one in the first season. There's two calendar years separating his appearance. Sure, he's been talking about a bit recently, but not in any context that makes him terribly interesting to the larger story.

That was a good point about Ned and Robb.

[[ETM]]

The passage of Robb's army at the Twins was a huge deal, and his failure to live up to his side of the agreement has always worried Catelyn and was discussed several times on the show. When you're in a position of power, it's not a big problem, but Robb came to depend of Frey's cooperation and became vulnerable. While it's true that lesser houses don't get depicted beyond their roles in the affairs of big players, the Freys and the Boltons proved to be crucial in turning tides and causing/influencing major events. The fallout will definitely be extensive, and I'm not just talking about the wedding.

[[ETM]]

etm i think you overestimate most people's ability to recognize instrumental music

They had The bloody National do it for the soundtrack, which has been out for a year now. I have a colleague who doesn't watch the show and hasn't read the books, but she knows Rains of Castamere because she likes The National.

[Qrazy]

Qrazy being reductive and overstating a negative opinion? Pshaw I say, good sir!

I do think the prison-style shiv to belly was in bad taste and meant only to shock, but aside from that, it never felt excessive in its goriness especially when compared to the book. Comparing its dramatic buildup to Ned's execution is silly since in that situation, the audience is in on it the whole time. They're aware of Cersei's motivations and Ned's sense of honor and dramatically, these two have an effective build up to the execution scene where the shock is that Joffrey goes back on his (mother's) word. The Red Wedding, in the book and the show, was a shock in an entirely different way because at no point was their the threat of violence in the situation itself, so obviously the dramatic build up isn't going to be as effective b/c it's not meant to be. The motivations only become clear in retrospect (though to be fair, they did include some hints to Tywin's involvement in the show as well, along with Jaime's comment to Roose in an earlier episode) because if it's foreshadowed too much, it would lose all of its dramatic effect. As it was, it wasn't exactly stunningly crafted, but it was effective enough. Not going to bother addressing complaints about extras, inserts or the camera angle of two individual until I hear one other human being echo those complaints.

Why would people echo such complaints when the vast majority have no idea how a piece of film is actually crafted? I'm just pointing out the ways in which the scene could have been better executed from my perspective. On a visceral level I found it wanting and upon reflection those were some of the reasons I could pinpoint.

Anyway I know I'm just raping all of your newborns with my negative opinions because you all birthed this episode. But that aside there are plenty of moments in the past few seasons where I have felt OMG moments. I think it's a good show and I actually think it's better than the books which are themselves deeply flawed. For instance the shot/scene where Jon and Ygritte reached the top of the wall was great. I however did not think the Red Wedding was well handled and I will say as much and frankly bugger you all for not being able to take any sort of criticism for anything you enjoy.

[Qrazy]

Not going to debate you on this, but you're being really reductive and you know it (or you didn't actually watch the video). It's much more than people putting their hands over their mouths. There were people crying, people saying they felt physically ill, people saying they'd never watch again. Go put together a montage of genuine reactions similar to that about The Butterfly Effect and I'll rep you every day for a year.

Yeah you're right, good point. Let's just forget the argument and watch this other montage of people responding to Game of Thrones.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhdNfPg5l3w&feature=youtu.be

[Qrazy]

But on another note in terms of the episode...

Oh actually sorry I lied, that's a montage I made of 2Girls1Cup clips set to the audio from Game of Thrones because shock value is shock value is shock value and the response will always be the same.

[Qrazy]

And in regards to the books...

I've been halfway through book 4 for a year and so far Martin has done absolutely nothing interesting with the killing off of Robb. In fact I've found this book to be mind numbingly tedious and an absolute chore to get through. So I'm baffled why I'm supposed to be so immensely impressed by his decision to kill off Robb. Oh wow he made a narrative decision we couldn't see coming, so impressive! No fuck that, he opted for shock value at the expense of his narrative and now we're stuck with a bunch of uninteresting characters doing uninteresting things (Arya being the only exception).

[Lucky]

As for Frey: He's so cavalier about his offspring that he can't even remember their names. He's glib when his wife's life is threatened. It wouldn't make any sense for him to commit such a vile betrayal for such a weak reason. If he did, is that the norm for this world or is it just because of the war? If it's the norm, then how was Robert, or anyone, able to unite the Seven Kingdoms any amount of time? If its because of the war, then why would anybody trust anyone?

It's more than a simple betrayal of one of his daughters. Robb's the key to the North. The Frey family lost a significant power move and an heir the day Robb shunned the proposal.

[Raiders]

It's more than a simple betrayal of one of his daughters. Robb's the key to the North. The Frey family lost a significant power move and an heir the day Robb shunned the proposal.

Exactly. The Starks are naive in political maneuverings and betrayals and it has cost them dearly now twice. I think the series is showing a shifting of the landscape; while Ned and his family were the wardens of the north during Robert's reign, they were mostly left alone and apolitical. Now that they are forced to be strategic and cunning as well, they are falling short.

I don't think that the ability to hold the kingdoms together rests upon trust. It rests upon right. Before Robert, the Targaryens were the ruling family as was their right for centuries. The war against them was united, and so Robert was seen as the rightful heir once the Targaryens were overthrown. But now, it is a world in chaos. There is no clear rightful heir (well, there is, it's Stannis, but all the characters do not know this). Everyone is jockeying for their own high pedistal and to keep or expand their power and influence. And then there's Robb, just trying to avenge a wrong and claim the North for "his people" to remove themselves from the southern corruption and influence. It's much more noble, and definitely out of place.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Why would people echo such complaints when the vast majority have no idea how a piece of film is actually crafted? I'm just pointing out the ways in which the scene could have been better executed from my perspective. On a visceral level I found it wanting and upon reflection those were some of the reasons I could pinpoint.

Anyway I know I'm just raping all of your newborns with my negative opinions because you all birthed this episode. But that aside there are plenty of moments in the past few seasons where I have felt OMG moments. I think it's a good show and I actually think it's better than the books which are themselves deeply flawed. For instance the shot/scene where Jon and Ygritte reached the top of the wall was great. I however did not think the Red Wedding was well handled and I will say as much and frankly bugger you all for not being able to take any sort of criticism for anything you enjoy.

You do remember that I was also disappointed with the execution and agreed with you about the omission of the food and drink moment, correct? I just think you're being overly dismissive of the visceral impact for the average viewer, especially those who hadn't read the book. I think it was more than effective for those who didn't know it was coming.

[Qrazy]

You do remember that I was also disappointed with the execution and agreed with you about the omission of the food and drink moment, correct? I just think you're being overly dismissive of the visceral impact for the average viewer, especially those who hadn't read the book. I think it was more than effective for those who didn't know it was coming.

No I didn't remember that so... phooey haha. :) Fair enough, I don't disagree with that, I'm just posting ways in which I feel the scene could have been better played in my eyes.

[Watashi]

For all of you (aka Qrazy) who say the book does it soooo better, I just reread the Red Wedding chapter, and the episode gets it right beat for beat. The only nitpicky change is that Catelyn kills Walder's grandson instead of his wife.

http://cdn1.vnetrix.com/A.Storm.of.Swords-Catelyn.pdf

[Wryan]

I've changed my mind.

I think the Red Wedding should have been played as farce. No shock value whatsoever.

"Hey y'all?"
"Sup?"
"We're gonna murder-ambush you."
"Oh shit, really?"
"Yeah."
"Soon?"
"Well, in a few minutes."
"Hmm...can it wait until after cake?"
"Of course. We're not savages."

[ledfloyd]

For all of you (aka Qrazy) who say the book does it soooo better, I just reread the Red Wedding chapter, and the episode gets it right beat for beat. The only nitpicky change is that Catelyn kills Walder's grandson instead of his wife.

http://cdn1.vnetrix.com/A.Storm.of.Swords-Catelyn.pdf
The grandson actually makes more sense to me. The guy has plenty of wives and daughters he doesn't seem to give a shit about, but he cares about his heirs.

[Qrazy]

For all of you (aka Qrazy) who say the book does it soooo better, I just reread the Red Wedding chapter, and the episode gets it right beat for beat. The only nitpicky change is that Catelyn kills Walder's grandson instead of his wife.

http://cdn1.vnetrix.com/A.Storm.of.Swords-Catelyn.pdf

First of all I don't know how you can re-read that and not see how many changes were made. Secondly the scene isn't properly stylistically adapted to film in terms of it's construction. I want some tension to build before that first arrow hits and then when it does the slaughter needs to be explosive. Tarantino's work in the underground bar in Inglourious Basterds is a good example of that kind of scene that works effectively.

[number8]

Good episode.

[Acapelli]

;481363']They had The bloody National do it for the soundtrack, which has been out for a year now. I have a colleague who doesn't watch the show and hasn't read the books, but she knows Rains of Castamere because she likes The National.
so what about people who don't really care for the national?

[[ETM]]

Point is - it was/is popular among show's fans. A friend of mine just posted the version by The National AND a ten minute instrumental version from Youtube on his Facebook feed. Malukah, the girl who does video game covers etc., did her version - it has 700,000 views on Youtube. I don't know why you underestimate fans? I've asked several casual fans about it as well, since Sunday, and all of them recognized the melody in an instant as it started playing, etc. etc.

[number8]

Doesn't the fact that the episode was named after a Lannister song, and yet no Lannisters appeared in the episode, gave it away?

[Raiders]

Doesn't the fact that the episode was named after a Lannister song, and yet no Lannisters appeared in the episode, gave it away?

No. That's silly. They don't even tell you the name of the episode when you watch anyway.

Again, I knew what song it was and so would people who read the book. But, to combat ETM's anecdotal evidence, most people I know who also watch have not read the book and did not know what song it was and only somewhat remembered the story as told by Cersei two weeks prior. I think everyone's knowledge and comprehension here is a lot more than the average viewer.

[number8]

Oh, right. I watch on HBO Go, so I always know the name of each episode.

Anyway, I haven't read the books. I only know the song's name from the previous episode where Cersei tells it to Margaery. And I only recognized the tune because Tyrion and Bronn kept singing it throughout season 2, although I probably would have glossed over it if Catelyn didn't stop and stare at the musicians like she recognized the tune.

[number8]

Good bookstore.

http://i.imgur.com/2ZiWfGv.jpg

[Kurosawa Fan]

No. That's silly. They don't even tell you the name of the episode when you watch anyway.

Again, I knew what song it was and so would people who read the book. But, to combat ETM's anecdotal evidence, most people I know who also watch have not read the book and did not know what song it was and only somewhat remembered the story as told by Cersei two weeks prior. I think everyone's knowledge and comprehension here is a lot more than the average viewer.

Yeah, my wife didn't recognize the song as they were playing it, but once she knew what it was, she remembered Cercei's story immediately.

[[ETM]]

Regarding the song, it occurred to me to create a poll among a more... average group of viewers. I'm a mod on a local forum, and there's a GoT thread, so I asked everyone to chime in.

So far:
- eight people recognized the melody (only one of them read the book)
- two didn't, both non-readers.

One guy said that he often sings it with his friends when they're drunk.

[number8]

By the way, I'm loving the producers' weird choices to get popular indie bands to do the songs. Picking The National do the Lannister song was great, and this season they hired The Hold Steady to do a drinking song and got the guy from Snow Patrol to sing it in the episode.

[Acapelli]

sad robb stark

http://i.imgur.com/atQdRNb.jpg

[Acapelli]

etm seems pretty adamant to convince me that everyone knows that song

robb stark didn't

now he dead

[Raiders]

;481589']Regarding the song, it occurred to me to create a poll among a more... average group of viewers. I'm a mod on a local forum, and there's a GoT thread, so I asked everyone to chime in.

So far:
- eight people recognized the melody (only one of them read the book)
- two didn't, both non-readers.

One guy said that he often sings it with his friends when they're drunk.

OK, since you're so desperate, I'll throw you a bone: You're right. It was instantly recognizable.

[[ETM]]

Why desperate? :D I was just surprised to hear someone say they didn't know it, since it's hard for me to imagine. Anyone I asked had the same reaction. I'm just amused by this, nothing more.

[Acapelli]

;481614']Why desperate? :D I was just surprised to hear someone say they didn't know it, since it's hard for me to imagine. Anyone I asked had the same reaction. I'm just amused by this, nothing more.
you regularly post about listening to film scores. i appreciate them, but i don't seek them out or ever listen to them outside of their original context

[Raiders]

BTW... "average viewer" doesn't describe someone who sings The Rains of Castamere as a drinking song.

Nonetheless, this is a silly argument. People have died because of this song. We should be more reverent. Especially since the writers of the show made it so that Ned Stark may have died twice. Bastards.

[[ETM]]

Well that's entirely your loss, I'm afraid. ;) I regularly load up my iPod with them. It's great how different we all are, isn't it?

[Watashi]

I didn't recognize it.

[Ivan Drago]

I recognized it, and my first thought was "Nooo...they wouldn't do that..."