The Bill Shakespeare Thread

[Watashi]

As an English Lit. major, Shakespeare has always been my weakest point. I've read a few of his plays scattered throughout high school and community college. Yet, it isn't until this semester where I've fully been invested in a majority of his plays. So far we've read Henry IV Part 1 and The Merchant of Venice.

So discuss the bard.

Favorite play?
Least favorite play?
Favorite character?

[Winston*]

Read this the other week.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSimhwI8_QUB d3SqXOJtjQBtQV-s9UNZIX4lrXYOJxGAriHq7Am

The answer is 'Shakespeare'.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Ooooo, good thread. I've been reading a ton of Shakespeare lately, thanks in large part to my Shakespeare class and my Shakespeare professor teaching Senior Seminar last semester.

Favorite play would be Hamlet (I know, boring choice). Most underrated play would be Coriolanus. Favorite character would be Paulina from The Winter's Tale. Least favorite play has easily been The Taming of the Shrew.

Two glaring omissions from my Shakespeare experience are King Lear and Othello, both of which I plan to read this year. Lear is a top priority.

[Winston*]

Two glaring omissions from my Shakespeare experience are King Lear and Othello, both of which I plan to read this year. Lear is a top priority.

Lear and The Tempest for me.

[Watashi]

I've never read Hamlet. Easily my biggest omission. Seen the Branagh film though.

I love Othello. Iago might be my favorite Shakespeare character. Such an evil bastard.

[Irish]

Least favorite play has easily been The Taming of the Shrew.

Have you seen it performed? It's pretty amazing.


Two glaring omissions from my Shakespeare experience are King Lear and Othello, both of which I plan to read this year. Lear is a top priority.

After you read "Lear," check out the recent performance with Ian McKellan and the Royal Shakespeare Company. I think it's still streaming on Netflix. Incredible stuff.

--

Favorite play: MacBeth
Favorite character: Mercutio, "Romeo and Juliet" (tie: Edmund & Edgar from "Lear")
Least favorite: Iago, "Othello." It's a great play, but Iago continues to annoy and confuse me. I've never read anybody who can adequately explain why he does what he does, and that bugs me. He does not seem as rooted in humanity as Shakes' other characters.

[Watashi]

Least favorite: Iago, "Othello." It's a great play, but Iago continues to annoy and confuse me. I've never read anybody who can adequately explain why he does what he does, and that bugs me. He does not seem as rooted in humanity as Shakes' other characters.

Well, he is a racist and is pissed that Othello promoted Cassio over him. I don't think you need a deeper motivation than that.

[Mara]

Lear and The Tempest for me.

Aw, man, these are probably my two favorites. Doing a close read of King Lear my senior year of high school pretty much changed my life and started my real love affair with classical theater.

I have a latent plan to see every Shakespeare play live at some point in my life. It's latent because I'm not at a point yet where I seek them out, but someday when I have time and money, I will. I've never actually written out a list, but HEY WHY NOT.

I have seen live:
The Tempest (x2)
The Two Gentlemen of Verona (x2, neither good)
The Merry Wives of Windsor
Measure for Measure (x3, somehow)
The Comedy of Errors
Much Ado About Nothing (x3? 4?)
Midsummer Night's Dream (x5??? or something)
The Merchant of Venice
As You Like It (x2)
The Taming of the Shrew
All's Well that Ends Well
Twelfth Night (x3?)
Henry V
Henry VI, Part 1
Henry VI, Part 2
Henry VI, Part 3 (I saw all three of these together and condensed, but it was like five hours long so I'm counting it.)
Romeo and Juliet (x3?)
Julius Caesar (x2)
Macbeth (x3)
Hamlet (x3???)
King Lear (x2, once brilliant and life-changing, once crap and angry-making)
Othello
Cymbeline (x2)

I haven't seen live (bolded if I've never read it or seen a film version:
Love's Labour Lost
The Winter's Tale (Seeing this in a couple of months!!!)
Pericles
The Two Noble Kinsman
King John
Richard II
Henry IV, Part 1
Henry IV, Part 2
Richard III
Henry VIII
Troilus and Cressida
Coriolanus
Titus Andronicus
Timon of Athens
Antony and Cleopatra

I know there are films of Coriolanus and Titus Andronicus I should see. Not sure why I haven't.

[Winston*]

I know there are films of Coriolanus and Titus Andronicus I should see. Not sure why I haven't.

Both are good. Watched the Coriolanus the other week. Does the Shakespeare with Guns thing better than other movies I've seen.


Aw, man, these are probably my two favorites. Doing a close read of King Lear my senior year of high school pretty much changed my life and started my real love affair with classical theater.


The Tempest was replaced as a latter career play the year I took Shakespeare at university with Cymbeline, which is a pretty bananas piece of work. Missed out on the chance to see King Lear live in Wellington with Ian McKellen, which I am angry with myself for.

[Mara]

Cymbeline was surprisingly effective both times I saw it on stage, considering that it's kind of... you know... nuts. There's enough good stuff and a really strong female protagonist to keep you interested, even when gods are descending and crap. BTW, the first time I saw it in London in 1998 Damian Lewis was playing Posthumus.

I saw Ian McKellen live in Enemy of the People on that same trip to London, but I would have killed to see him as Lear. Apparently Ian Holmes also did a great run as Lear on Broadway in the 90's at some point.

The last time I saw Lear live it was awful, but interestingly enough actually featured all the nudity that the play calls for, which is... well, a whole lot of naked. Men were flopping all over the place. It was pretty brave, and it would have interesting in a production that was better overall.

[Mara]

Least favorite play?
Favorite character?

Least favorite play so far is easily The Two Gentlemen of Verona. What a mess.

Favorite character is... tricky. I totally love Beatrice from Much Ado About Nothing, and the Fool from Lear. But... hmm.

[Irish]

Well, he is a racist and is pissed that Othello promoted Cassio over him. I don't think you need a deeper motivation than that.

I think that skims the surface. Calling Iago 'racist' is much more modern interpretation (and often seems to stem from the same mindset that can refer to Mark Twain and Ernest Hemingway as 'racist'). I'm not saying that's you, because I don't think it's obvious from the play that Iago is racist. My sense is that that interpretation is often taught, rather than reached independently.

It also doesn't make a lot of sense from Othello's perspective. Iago is able to play on Othello's weakness, and the only reason he's able to do that is because Othello trusts him so much. Since they're long standing friends, I have trouble believing that Othello would be so blind as to not see that aspect of Iago's nature, if it were really there.

This is where Iago differs for me: With all of the other Shakespearean villains, I can see where they're coming from (especially, for instance, someone like Edmund in "Lear"). With Iago, though, not so much.

In a way, that makes him all the more frightening but it also means he kinda sticks out in an odd way compared to some others.

[Winston*]

Going to read King Lear before I watch the final season of Slings and Arrows. I've seen Ran, but that hardly counts.

[ledfloyd]

King Lear is easily my favorite Shakespeare. Trying to decide which is my least favorite is a bit more difficult. I wasn't terribly fond of Romeo & Juliet I guess, but I haven't read it since 9th grade, so take that for what it's worth. Favorite character? Yorick.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Have you seen it performed? It's pretty amazing.

I have not. I was hoping to catch an all male European troupe perform it in Ann Arbor on the 23rd, but my wife and I will be out of town that weekend. I'm bummed. I'm just a huge fan of the way Shakespeare crafts a strong female character, and thus hated his depiction of females in Shrew.


After you read "Lear," check out the recent performance with Ian McKellan and the Royal Shakespeare Company. I think it's still streaming on Netflix. Incredible stuff.


I definitely plan to. Lear will be the next thing I read after Strange & Norrell, though that's taking me a lot longer because of my Native American Lit class.

[Irish]

I have not. I was hoping to catch an all male European troupe perform it in Ann Arbor on the 23rd, but my wife and I will be out of town that weekend. I'm bummed. I'm just a huge fan of the way Shakespeare crafts a strong female character, and thus hated his depiction of females in Shrew.

Heh, yeah. That's the challenge of that play in the modern world. I kinda dig how different troupes approach the problem.

The first time I saw it was with a dinky little off-road Shakespeare-in-the-Park kinda thing and it just blew me away. I wouldn't argue it's his best, or maybe even that it's worth going out of your way for, but it sure is fun.

[Mr. Pink]

Othello was always my favorite, but I haven't read any Shakespeare in quite a while (I've read a good portion of his stuff, though).

There really aren't many of his plays I don't like, but Othello has some of my favorite quotes and characters.

Favorite Sonnet:
Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest
Now is the time that face should form another;
Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,
Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.
For where is she so fair whose uneared womb
Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?
Or who is he so fond will be the tomb
Of his self-love, to stop posterity?
Thou art thy mother's glass and she in thee
Calls back the lovely April of her prime;
So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,
Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.
But if thou live, remembered not to be,
Die single and thine image dies with thee.

Few quotes from Othello:

Look to her, Moor, if thou hast eyes to see:
She has deceived her father, and may thee.

Reputation is an idle and most false imposition; oft got without merit and lost without deserving.

O! beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey'd monster which doth mock
The meat it feeds on.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Funny this should be dug up at this moment. I finally read Lear last week and it knocked me on my ass. Easily shoots to the top of what I've read.

[Mara]

Lear is so, so good.

I'm going to see Measure for Measure on Friday and the production is 18+ for violence, sexual situations, and nudity.

...

This is the one about the nun, right? :crazy:

[Raiders]

Lear is so, so good.

I'm going to see Measure for Measure on Friday and the production is 18+ for violence, sexual situations, and nudity.

...

This is the one about the nun, right? :crazy:

And yet, it might be his most overtly sexual work. The whole thing revolves around sex, lust and marriage consummation.

[Mara]

There is a lot of lusty going on, but not much violence. And it doesn't have inherent nudity like Lear.

I'm mostly worried that they're going to try to make it edgy, when I see the play as mostly a comedy with an edge of social commentary. It might be good, but it might be silly.

[Mara]

I'm going to see Measure for Measure on Friday and the production is 18+ for violence, sexual situations, and nudity.

...

This is the one about the nun, right? :crazy:

I was right to be worried. This was kind of a mess. I'm not sure if there's an exact term for this, but it's something I feel pretty regularly: the embarrassment that results from a production/show/film trying really, really hard to be edgy. Like they're screaming: "You think you know Shakespeare? Well, here are nuns in wimples wearing thongs and pasties while they simulate fellatio fifteen feet from your face! ARE YOU NOT SHOCKED?"

It's not like I haven't seen plays that are legitimately shocking, but it's so mortifying when they try so hard to be shocking and kind of fail.

The really sad part is, when they all calm down and just say the lines, the play is so good. The actors at STC are top-notch, and they can evoke so much emotion with a voice catch and a gesture-- why make them clutch at their crotches so the very back row is clear that the actor is supposed to have an erection? We get it. We're not stupid.

I... just... grr.

[Mara]

I have seen live:
The Tempest (x2)
The Two Gentlemen of Verona (x2, neither good)
The Merry Wives of Windsor
Measure for Measure (x3, somehow)
Much Ado About Nothing (x3? 4?)
Midsummer Night's Dream (x5??? or something)
The Merchant of Venice
As You Like It (x2)
The Taming of the Shrew
All's Well that Ends Well
Twelfth Night (x3?)
Romeo and Juliet (x3?)
Julius Caesar (x2)
Macbeth (x3)
Hamlet (x3???)
King Lear (x2, once brilliant and life-changing, once crap and angry-making)
Othello
Cymbeline (x2)
The Winter's Tale
Henry IV, Part 1
Henry IV, Part 2
Coriolanus
Antony and Cleopatra

I haven't seen live (bolded if I've never read it or seen a film version:)
Love's Labour Lost
Pericles
The Two Noble Kinsman
King John
Richard II
Henry VIII
Troilus and Cressida
Titus Andronicus
Timon of Athens
The Comedy of Errors
The Taming of the Shrew
Richard III
Henry VI, Part 1
Henry VI, Part 2
Henry VI, Part 3

I am re-vamping and updating this list based on different criteria. I now count having seen the play if it was unabridged, and either a professional production, or an amateur production that was excellent or moving in some way. Some of the things I'd counted as having "seen" felt a little fudged. In fact, I've "seen" two productions of Richard III in the last year but they were both terrible and confusing, so I'm holding out for a good one.

And I have seen some great productions since the last time I updated. The Winter's Tale: upsetting and thought-provoking. Coriolanus: rousing and tense. Antony and Cleopatra: much better than I expected. Although Shakespeare is a romantic, he does like to explore obsessive, destructive love, and I'm not sure he does it better than here.

And in the last couple of weeks I saw Henry IV parts 1 & 2 and they were... just... awesome. I have a little bit of a bias against Shakespeare's histories. Sometimes they feel like scene after scene of 15 people, all confusingly related by marriage or blood, arguing about whether or not to go to war. (Spoiler: they go to war. They always go to war.) Although those scenes were here, at heart it was a very personal story about families, love, personal development, friendship, and loss. I was blown away.

[Winston*]

I went to see a Russian version of A Midsummer Night's Dream recently with giant puppets, and a performing dog, and none of the protagonists or fairies. It was pretty good.

[Mara]

Portia's father is pretty damn bossy for a dead guy.

[ledfloyd]

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/scourge-relatability

[Sven]

That assy, assy Ira Glass.

[ledfloyd]

Haha, I actually am a devoted fan of This American Life, but yeah, he's just plain wrong on this one.

[Mara]

A careful reading of The Merry Wives of Windsor shows that it is a slight, silly, tossed-off sort of play, and yet still manages to be hilarious. Look: Shakespeare can do comedy even when he isn't trying.

In my head, I have cast Miranda Hart as Mistress Ford and Lucy Punch as Mistress Page, and that might be why I keep cracking up while reading. They would be hysterical.

[Mara]

I must be in a mood, because my study of Twelfth Night has involved a lot of coming up with silly interpretations of lines.

"You are sick of self-love, Malvolio." = "You spend too much time playing with yourself."

"'Tis not that time of moon with me to make one in so skipping a dialogue." - "Stop talking; I'm on my period."

[Mara]

Yeah okay so my book o' Shakespeare is arguing in the introduction to the play Measure for Measure that Angelo is the protagonist, which I think is hooey. I think Isabel is the protagonist. An online search shows that most people think either Isabel is the protagonist, or else Duke Vicentio, which is super-hooey and I reject it outright. At least Angelo has a confirmed goal about which he is passionate, Vicentio just kind of hangs out and manipulates people for fun. But it's Isabel, right?

Also, it would be fun to write up an analysis of this play as an argument against mandatory minimums.

[Mara]

Updating:

I have seen live:
The Tempest (x2)
The Two Gentlemen of Verona (x2, neither good)
The Merry Wives of Windsor
Measure for Measure (x3, somehow)
Much Ado About Nothing (x3? 4?)
Midsummer Night's Dream (x5??? or something)
The Merchant of Venice
As You Like It (x2)
The Taming of the Shrew
All's Well that Ends Well
Twelfth Night (x3?)
Romeo and Juliet (x3?)
Julius Caesar (x2)
Macbeth (x3)
Hamlet (x3???)
King Lear (x2, once brilliant and life-changing, once crap and angry-making)
Othello
Cymbeline (x2)
The Winter's Tale
Henry IV, Part 1
Henry IV, Part 2
Coriolanus
Antony and Cleopatra
Richard II
The Comedy of Errors

I haven't seen live (bolded if I've never read it or seen a film version:)
Love's Labour Lost
Pericles: should be seeing this fall
The Two Noble Kinsman
King John
Henry VIII
Troilus and Cressida
Titus Andronicus: should be seeing this fall
Timon of Athens
The Taming of the Shrew: should be seeing next spring
Richard III
Henry VI, Part 1
Henry VI, Part 2
Henry VI, Part 3

The production of Richard II I saw was really good, and Comedy of Errors was... fine. I really think it needs to be a film, actually. It's one of the few that would work better as a film.

I'm starting to get down to the plays that are hard to see, except Richard III where I just have awful luck. I might have to go out of my way to see the rest of them. Take a trip. If any of you hear of good professional productions of these, let me know.

[Mara]

Updating again, since next years' seasons are coming out:

I have seen live:
The Tempest (x2)
The Two Gentlemen of Verona (x2, neither good)
The Merry Wives of Windsor
Measure for Measure (x3, somehow)
Much Ado About Nothing (x3? 4?)
Midsummer Night's Dream (x5??? or something)
The Merchant of Venice
As You Like It (x2)
The Taming of the Shrew
All's Well that Ends Well
Twelfth Night (x3?)
Romeo and Juliet (x3?)
Julius Caesar (x2)
Macbeth (x3)
Hamlet (x3???)
King Lear (x2, once brilliant and life-changing, once crap and angry-making)
Othello
Cymbeline (x2)
The Winter's Tale
Henry IV, Part 1
Henry IV, Part 2
Coriolanus
Antony and Cleopatra
Richard II
The Comedy of Errors
Pericles
Titus Andronicus

Set to see:
Love's Labour Lost? It's being performed in Pennsylvania this summer.
Timon of Athens: YESSSSSS. This is Oregon Shakespeare Company and I will be in Oregon for a family reunion this summer. Already bought my ticket. (To the play. Haven't even though about plane tickets yet.)
The Taming of the Shrew: in a few months.

That leaves these problem children:

I haven't seen live (bolded if I've never read it or seen a film version:)
The Two Noble Kinsmen
King John
Henry VIII
Troilus and Cressida
Richard III
Henry VI, Part 1
Henry VI, Part 2
Henry VI, Part 3

Pericles was astonishingly good. It was a tour of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, which is some high-quality stuff, and they really know how to bring out the best in a middling-quality play. I laughed; I cried: A+

Titus Andronicus was a mess, though. What a nasty little play.

[Spinal]

The Two Gentlemen of Verona (x2, neither good)

That play just sucks. I think it would be really hard to make it good.

[Mara]

That play just sucks. I think it would be really hard to make it good.

Okay... not to out myself as an obsessive or anything...

For a personal project of my own I ended up reading/studying/listening to this play over and over and over again over the last year. I can now recite huge chunks by memory. I've probably read it 30-40 times total. As with anything consumed that many times, I've cycled through how I feel about it. My initial impression-- that it sucks-- has been tempered a little bit.

The truth is, there is a really great play in there somewhere. There are some really funny, clever scenes. Some of the language is gorgeous. The two female characters are a) distinguishable from each other, b) well-written, and c) both really impressive people in their own way. The play chews on issues of love, sexuality, gender politics, and loyalty that Shakespeare will be revisiting for his entire canon. (It goes back and back again to the idea of "constancy"-- that loving someone no matter what, despite changing circumstances or uncovered flaws is the greatest and highest ideal of love. I'm not convinced it's a great idea, but Shakespeare LOVED IT.)

But holy hot damn the play has problems. The two male leads are both abhorrent people: Proteus in an obvious way and Valentine in a less-obvious way. They both behave abominably and they are both forgiven with a wink and a shrug. The ending is stupid. Shakespeare takes one of his flights of fancy in the middle, where a play without magic or fantasy suddenly veers off into a really weird circumstantial plot point, but this time involving a roving gang of pirates and thieves in the woods.

I have this intense desire to, like... fix the play. There's something there. It just needs to be fixed.

[Spinal]

Yes, well put. It's an early play that can perhaps be seen as a stepping stone to better things. It still gets produced today because people want to mark it off their Shakespeare checklist, but boy, I never want to see it again, that's for sure.

[Mara]

Seeing Taming of the Shrew this evening, by the Shakespeare Theatre Company in DC which tends to be excellent. It's an all-male production, which... I dunno. We'll see. I'd rather go all-female or gender-swapped if they want to play with that.

Katherine is played by the guy who was Jonathan in 30 Rock, which might work.

EDIT: Reviews are not good!

[Sycophant]

A friend of mine played Julius Caesar in an all-female production last year and I'm so sad I missed it.

[Sven]

A friend of mine played Julius Caesar in an all-female production last year and I'm so sad I missed it.

A sister of mine was Brutus and was aMAZing.

[Mara]

EDIT: Reviews are not good!

I'm actually glad I read the reviews beforehand as they helped me prepare for my disappointment. This was ill-conceived to a baffling degree. There was obviously talent involved both on and off stage, but the weird, off-putting elements torpedoed the production. Having an all-male cast neither added nor detracted from the play; it just happened with no further thought or intention.

I don't want to point out every little failure in the production, but the worst choice was to add a great deal of music to the show. The music wasn't good, wasn't appropriate to the situation, added nothing but length (the damn thing was over three hours long) and was performed by actors of indifferent musical skill. In the program the director said that he added the music to give insight into what the characters were thinking during certain scenes. I read that and I thought, Oh, I found the problem. You, the director, don't know what these characters are thinking. That explains a lot.

It explains why there wasn't any emotional continuity. It explains why the actors looked lost half the time. It would explain why the final scene is played as excruciating self-abasement but behaved like a triumph.

It was a mess, is what I am saying.

[Winston*]

Of all the Shakespeare plays to perform with all men, that seems a particularly odd choice.

[Mara]

Of all the Shakespeare plays to perform with all men, that seems a particularly odd choice.

RIGHT?

[baby doll]

Of all the Shakespeare plays to perform with all men, that seems a particularly odd choice.Well, you couldn't make the case that any Shakespeare play could be performed with an all-male cast since that's how they did back in the day?

[Winston*]

Well, you couldn't make the case that any Shakespeare play could be performed with an all-male cast since that's how they did back in the day?

I guess. But performing a 16th century sexist play in a 16th century sexist way doesn't seem especially worthwhile to me.

[Mara]

Well, you couldn't make the case that any Shakespeare play could be performed with an all-male cast since that's how they did back in the day?

They all could, but it's a question of why. If you're going for Shakespearean authenticity there are a lot of elements you could choose to incorporate.

Taming of the Shrew is the Shakespeare play most merciless to women. Any modern production needs to figure out how to address that. And in my opinion, the laziest way to address it is to remove the women altogether.

[Mara]

UGH I WANT TO SEE THIS ALL-FEMALE PRODUCTION SO BADLY

http://publictheater.org/Tickets/Calendar/PlayDetailsCollection/SITP/thetamingoftheshrew/?SiteTheme=Shakespeare&ref=site&loc=spot&play=shrew

It's free tickets but require waiting in line, so I'd have to go all the way to NYC without knowing if I could actually see it or not... What a total bummer. I adore Donna Lynne Champlin, too. I WANNA GO

http://themuse.jezebel.com/the-taming-of-the-shrew-this-time-told-by-shrews-1782034867