Community (Season 4)

[Gizmo]

Today being the day for episode 1, I guess we should start a thread for the season. Less than 5 hours away, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Early word of mouth based on the episodes available to critics (1 & 3) has me worried, but hopefully they find their footing. Weirdly, I'm less worried about it being cancelled, and more about it being bad and then getting renewed.

[MadMan]

I'm not sure the Hunger Games jokes will be funny. We'll see how this goes tonight.

[Ivan Drago]

I'm not sure the Hunger Games jokes will be funny. We'll see how this goes tonight.

If they are, I won't get them. I still haven't seen it.

35 minutes left. I've played Journey to the Center of Hawkthorne multiple times, I read Jeff/Annie fanfiction, and I've never been this anxious about a TV show's season premiere in my life. That's how much this show has impacted me.

[MadMan]

I haven't seen it either, but based on that clip they showed from tonight's episode online the parody will be really obvious. Although granted I've actually read some of the book...

[DavidSeven]

Is it possible to be cautiously pessimistic? If so, that's me.

[MadMan]

I got Yvette Nicole Brown @yvettenbrown to respond to one of my tweets tonight. Fantastic.

Tonight's episode was a bit uneven at times, but I still enjoyed it. The Hunger Games bit fell completely flat-luckily the Abed material was the best. I would watch AbedTV.

[Henry Gale]

Definitely nowhere near bad. It's not the sort of thing Harmon would've written, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable in its own right.

It's still refreshingly self-aware and subversive, has the the same great characters being used as they should, and I laughed out loud several times.

It is not dead.

[dreamdead]

My reaction to this whole episode:

http://i.imgur.com/m84kK.gif

The Dean's lines to Jeff in the final minute (popcorn, friends, etc.) were delightfully dirty. The rest just felt so perfunctory and lacked dimensionality.

[Gizmo]

I thought it was hit and miss. Not as great as I remember, but not totally off the mark. I thought the last minute (after the final commercial break with the credits) was the best bit.

[Ivan Drago]

I need help reacting to something.

Wait, no. I don't.


The rest just felt so perfunctory and lacked dimensionality.

Pretty much. Abed TV was cool, but every character felt stripped down to their simplest characteristics, and those were cranked up to 12. Plus the pace was ridiculously fast.

[slqrick]

I thought the AbedTV was a complete miss and really irritated me. It would have been fine as a standalone segment to lead into the credits, but it just became really grating. The Hunger Games stuff was a waste, and I'm annoyed that they're boiling Annie back down to her pining for Jeff (I thought the way she got over it last season in the Dreamatorium episode was fantastic). Despite all this, I still found myself enjoying certain aspects of the episode. I'm glad we get to see a bit of the Britta/Troy relationship pains, as well as Jim Rash killing it as per usual.

I won't be one of the people to just completely right it off, and I know the previous seasons weren't perfect either, so I'm guarding my optimism for a moment.

[Mara]

Off... but not awful?

Sadly, Scrubs did the posing-as-a-perfunctory-sitcom episode much better.

And Chase is so phoning it in. Willard was five times as good.

[ledfloyd]

I'm definitely leaning towards awful. It seems like the one element of the show that is absolutely missing is the human core that made it so interesting in the first place.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Oof.

[MadMan]

I for one would love to see more Shirley-Annie interaction. I guess based on what I've heard we can't hope for Fred Willard to replace Chevy Chase as Pierce with only Abed noticing. Damn.

[Bosco B Thug]

There's an edge missing (and very likely it's the weakest episode ever), but nothing was outright betrayed and it's still deeply satisfying a continuation of the series. I was pretty anti-Troy/Britta, but that was introduced very well, and was the closest whiff of old-Community in the ep.

[ledfloyd]

I can't buy into a Britta that says things like "What's the deal, Jessica Biel?"

[Sycophant]

I'm not entirely sure how to react to this (my emotional reaction to the change in leadership and all-around personnel is still pretty high). I know I didn't like it. I think mostly, the episode just felt empty. Kinda hollow.

It was not up to the show's usual visual standards. I'm pretty sure of that.

Guess I'll see where this goes form here.

[Dead & Messed Up]

It was not up to the show's usual visual standards. I'm pretty sure of that.

Yeah, this was the weirdest thing to me. The camera didn't feel as dynamic, and a friend pointed out that the episode felt underlit. It's odd to complain about such things, but Community has such a distinct look to it that even small shifts feel loud.

Otherwise, I liked it okay. The Annie subplot never revved up, but the sitcom-mockery was solid (especially the banner ads for upcoming shows), and the dance between Jeff and Pelton felt appropriately skeevy.

[[ETM]]

I... I didn't hate it. I was very anxious because I expected to hate it, but it was okay.
It's as if the writers were afraid of fan negativity so much that they made a by-the-numbers Community episode. It hit all the notes, crossed all the Ts and dotted the Is. But I guess that's precisely why it wasn't a "true" Community episode. You're not supposed to follow a pattern.

[EyesWideOpen]

They really should have not made a fourth season because there was absolutely no way they could win no matter how great the season was.

[Henry Gale]

I think the huge emphasis on the behind-the-scenes changes and the extended hiatus is making everyone over exaggerate and dissect every detail of this one episode more than they should. Obviously it feels different, but that's just because we have a greater context for where every difference likely stems. Harmon isn't leading the writers room and the Russo Brothers aren't in charge of the set, but most of the writing staff is still the same (with the exception of people like Chris McKenna and Dino "Starburns" Stamatopoulos), as is the stellar cast and almost all of the rest of the crew.

Basically, if years from now someone were to go through the show for the first time, they definitely wouldn't be thinking, "Wow, this show is suddenly different and terrible!" after seeing last night's episode.

The next few weeks might change my mind, but then again, every Community season is slow to find its footing.

[number8]

I'm not sure it was terrible, but it was definitely not good. I only laughed hard at "Blind/Blonde," "Changnesia," and Dean's almost uncharacteristically filthy exchange with Jeff (it was a bit beyond the Dean's typical perversion).

Abed TV felt like a total misfire. Could've been done much better.

[[ETM]]

Basically, if years from now someone were to go through the show for the first time, they definitely wouldn't be thinking, "Wow, this show is suddenly different and terrible!" after seeing last night's episode.

A casual viewer on a local forum, who didn't follow the news at all, just posted: "Did you guys watch Community? Is it just me or did the quality just drop drastically?" (his exact words)

[Irish]

Basically, if years from now someone were to go through the show for the first time, they definitely wouldn't be thinking, "Wow, this show is suddenly different and terrible!" after seeing last night's episode.

I'm not a fan of the show, but last night's episode had a different 'energy,' for lack of a better word, than the stuff Harmon was doing. Like it was going through the motions. Like a cover band version of a TV show.

I think you're right, though, that broader changes won't be apparent for awhile, as they weren't, for example, with "The West Wing" right after Aaron Sorkin left.


;464694']A casual viewer on a local forum, who didn't follow the news at all, just posted: "Did you guys watch Community? Is it just me or did the quality just drop drastically?" (his exact words)

The fact that he's posting about a TV show on an internet forum already puts him in a different category, one removed from 'casual viewer.'

It also smells like the kind of thing a superfan would do under an alias, in order to astroturf their own opinions.

[Sycophant]

A couple of people on the AVClub comments who somehow missed the news have registered the same feeling, coming online to see what was up with the change.

EDIT: I guess as Irish suggests, it could be a superfan's ruse to point to a dummy account for evidence about how the show's change is bad and apparent. However, I think the change in visual style, pacing, and overall dynamics in the episode, though they could be a bump in the road for where season 4 goes, could probably be felt by a casual fan of the show who had no idea of its extratextual world.

I mean, we'll see if in the grand scheme of things this looks like a hiccup or it's really the clear mark of a lasting drop in quality.

The characters in season three were already slipping further into flatter and flatter territory. If last night is any indication, they're now steamrolled. Happens to most shows eventually, I suppose.

[[ETM]]

The fact that he's posting about a TV show on an internet forum already puts him in a different category, one removed from 'casual viewer.'

It also smells like the kind of thing a superfan would do under an alias, in order to astroturf their own opinions.

It's not a specific forum, just a regular all-purpose community for locals. There are plenty of these guys who have a lot of time on their hands, who watch anything someone would recommend and constantly come with questions about things you and I take for granted because "they've been all over the news, duh".

[MadMan]

I'm still under the firm belief that somewhere around Season 4 or 5 sitcoms and comedy shows run the risk of a higher level of diminishing returns. I'm keeping that in mind too for when Arrested Development comes back...

PS: While also keeping in mind that so far Archer Season 4 has been hilarious, and that The Simpsons and Seinfeld both had fantastic Season 4s. Not to mention I almost forgot about Season 4 of Futurama. Although Season 4 of The Office was the truly last great season in the show's run, so there is that..

[DavidSeven]

I thought it was pretty bad. Troy's "why does this feel good?" was the only big laugh for me. I already thought the show was sort of running out of steam last season, but even still, I thought the drop in quality was measurable this episode.

Loss of Harmon was obviously huge, but losses of McKenna, Ganz, Russos and other creative and producing talent might be back breaking. Continuity in comedic tone and production value from previous seasons was obviously lacking here.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I thought it was pretty bad. Troy's "why does this feel good?" was the only big laugh for me. I already thought the show was sort of running out of steam last season, but even still, I thought the drop in quality was measurable this episode.

Loss of Harmon was obviously huge, but losses of McKenna, Ganz, Russos and other creative and producing talent might be back breaking. Continuity in comedic tone and production value from previous seasons was obviously lacking here.

Ganz is still around this season, and wrote both the next episode (Halloween) and the finale. Will be interesting to see if there's a notable uptick next episode because of her.

[number8]

I believe Ganz said she wrote the MS Paint joke in this episode, which was pretty good.

Don't forget that Neil Goldman, Garrett Donovan and Dino Stamatopolous also left. I think with Ganz leaving, the only remaining creatives are the ones who joined in S3 like Andy Bobrow, but I could be wrong.

[DavidSeven]

Ganz is still around this season, and wrote both the next episode (Halloween) and the finale. Will be interesting to see if there's a notable uptick next episode because of her.

Ah, my mistake. That gives me a glimmer of hope. A very faint glimmer.

[number8]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e6c61a7bea991c325b1cd34d25f489 34/tumblr_mhx9uwEr391qeo9ogo1_500 .jpg

[number8]

Interesting interview with Andy Bobrow about Dan, leaving, the new writers, the premiere, etc. It's more candid than I expected.


I remember when meeting with Dave and Moses, I asked them, "Have you guys given any thought to whether you'd like to see Jeff Winger graduate or not?" Their answer was like, "Whoa, whoa, TV time works differently than real time." The famous example is the TV show M*A*S*H lasted way longer than the Korean War. Several writers asked them the same question. It was almost like a litmus test. We felt like one of the differences between Community and other shows was expressed in the answer to that question, which is, "No, Season 4 means it's their senior year, and that being said, it is Jeff Winger's senior year and that means he's gonna graduate.


What was funny was, I had this fear that we would get a bunch of new people who would want to do standard sitcom stuff. And the opposite turned out to be true. All the new people came in, and they could not wait to do Community-style stuff. It was me and Megan and some other veterans who were almost standing against the tide, saying like, "Wait, wait, wait, you can't just do movie parodies. You can't just do silly things. It has to speak a universal truth. It has to adhere to the emotional core of these characters." Honest to God, I found myself saying, "Guys, the Dean doesn't have to wear a dress every time he walks into the room." [LAUGHS] "Guys, we can't just do Cocktail for the sake of doing Cocktail. There has to be something true about why we're doing Cocktail."


In the episode, we're doing an Abed fantasy sequence, a movie parody, animation, recasting Pierce, the multi-cam trick, Abed descending into a psychotic break, a movie parody, Dean in a dress, establishing Troy and Britta's relationship – which we didn't do very well. It just ends up being sort of a free-standing scene – trying to do a C-story with Shirley and Annie. When I look at that whole mess, I guess I can say, on the positive side, it's amazing that we worked it all together because there's so much going on. Then, I [feel] we shouldn't have done that much stuff. When I look at it, the critiques that I'm anticipating are "This is a sign of new showrunners trying desperately to assure die-hard fans that we're still gonna be the same." Especially, that we threw in animation. We tried to do an Abed's descent into madness [story] that admittedly doesn't work half as well as Abed's Christmas madness story. Maybe the review that I'm anticipating is there's a hint of desperation in the season opener. There's too many tricks and because of that, we're robbing from actual storytelling.

If we did it over again, I wouldn't have done a Troy/Britta story or a Shirley/Annie story. I would have lumped everyone into The Hunger Games, and just done those two stories. Some version of people competing to get into a class, paired with Abed seeing the world differently in multi-camera. It would have just made it two stories instead of five [LAUGHS].

http://splitsider.com/2013/02/talking-to-community-writer-andy-bobrow-about-last-nights-season-premiere/

[Ivan Drago]

Ah, my mistake. That gives me a glimmer of hope. A very faint glimmer.

Jim Rash is apparently writing an episode this year, too. So think of that what you will.

[ledfloyd]

Am I crazy or was that... really good?

[slqrick]

Am I crazy or was that... really good?

You crazy.

[Irish]

Was there some meta joke involved with broadcasting a Halloween episode on Valentine's Day? Or is NBC really that stupid?

[Henry Gale]

Yeah, I liked this episode even more than last week's. Probably helps that Megan Ganz wrote it (she also did the documentary, Law & Order, and stolen pen episodes), but seeing as this isn't even the last she or other writers from the first three seasons are behind over the coming weeks, I'm still finding it hard to be worried about a significant decline. Having said that, Ganz has migrated to Modern Family and isn't sure if she'll return to Community if a Season 5 does happen.


Was there some meta joke involved with broadcasting a Halloween episode on Valentine's Day? Or is NBC really that stupid?

Well seeing as those behind the show completely intended this to air before actual Halloween, it was NBC's annoying hashtag way of trying to cover their ass and have it make some sense.

I really do hate how every significant development or especially memorable line on a show seems to be punctuated by some horrible hashtag to announce it's arrival. It's like they're actively trying to get me to stop watching live television.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Not as bad as last week, but still not very good.

[Sycophant]

I'm trying to run theoretical simulations and doing some mental gymnastics where I'm watching this show without the knowledge of the behind the scenes stuff and not paying attention to credits to see if I can muster a more positive reaction.

Nothing yet.

[dreamdead]

The realization that Pierce had the panic room built on/after Do the Right Thing's opening was the best joke. Otherwise, it felt better but still not there yet.

[ledfloyd]

Vanderwerff liked last night's episode and claims next week's is the worst the show has ever done. I'm scared.

And yes, the Do the Right Thing joke was fantastic.

[Qrazy]

Has the quality dropped off? Yes. Do I still enjoy it more than any other currently airing sitcom? Yes.

[Ivan Drago]

I still enjoy it, too, but last night's episode was something that could've happened on The Big Bang Theory.

I'm tempted to just skip next week's episode from the bad buzz alone.

[Bosco B Thug]

Yeah this show will never be the same. Sticking around for canon.

... And it's still pretty enjoyable/clever/funny. But what's going on with overtly-stated punchlines, Britta as this weird "cool-not-cool" clowner, and Joel McHale and the character of Jeff suffering greatly from the worst lines ("Not my ball! Your ball!"; "Don't ask." "Don't tell!"; "Aha! Not 'aha!' your dad is dead, but 'aha' etc. etc.," which made no sense and annoyed me greatly).

[Qrazy]

I still enjoy it, too, but last night's episode was something that could've happened on The Big Bang Theory.

I'm tempted to just skip next week's episode from the bad buzz alone.

Not really. Production values alone.

[slqrick]

"No sweat, Boba Fett!"

...

[Bosco B Thug]

OH. Britta: "I'll check the ____." Jeff: "I'll check my messages." Noooo...

[ledfloyd]

"No sweat, Boba Fett!"

...
"What's the deal, Jessica Biel?"

[MadMan]

Well fuck me cause I really liked it a lot. Maybe I'm biased since its a Halloween episode and they're always been my favorite, but I enjoyed this. That said the fact that last night I was okay with waiting until it hit online and not even bothering to DVR it like I normally do is not a good sign. Or its due to the fact that I couldn't get excited about a Halloween episode airing in FEBRUARY. Thanks, NBC :rolleyes:

[number8]

That Do the Right Thing joke was the kind of thing they used to do often and really well. Kinda sad that that was a standout in this ep.

The tag was great though. "Did it work? Are you tall?"

[number8]

Was there some meta joke involved with broadcasting a Halloween episode on Valentine's Day? Or is NBC really that stupid?

This season was supposed to start on Oct 19, but NBC pushed it back to this year because NBC execs wake up every morning gargling a fresh brew of rotting dicks.

The episode's original air date was Oct 26. That it now aired on Valentine was a coincidence.

[DavidSeven]

I'm not going to try to analyze it too much. I just didnt laugh.

And for real, what are they doing to Britta?

[ledfloyd]

I'm not going to try to analyze it too much. I just didnt laugh.

And for real, what are they doing to Britta?
I have no idea, but I hate it.

[Thirdmango]

The episode's original air date was Oct 26. That it now aired on Valentine was a coincidence.

Jacobs was on Comedy Bang Bang a week ago and she said there are Thanksgiving and Christmas episodes as well so look for those in March and April.

[MadMan]

I have no idea, but I hate it.You guys are going to have elaborate further. Maybe I haven't noticed it because despite Jacobs being funny on the show, I've never liked Britta as a character.

[MadMan]

Predicted reactions of everyone else to this episode: I hated it.

Mine: Eh.

[Henry Gale]

See, that's what a not-good episode looks like.

EDIT: The tag was pretty funny.

[ledfloyd]

"What's the deal, Jessica Biel?"
"You're on your own, Al Capone."

make it stop.

[Gizmo]

I thought it was alright. Not good, but better than other viewing options.

[Irish]

Wow.

I still think Harmon is a horse's ass. I still think this show sucks. But now it sucks for different reasons. It's become boring.

They went from a crazy, random, occasionally funny show to a completely conventional one. It's waaaay too late to try and do sitcomish, character driven stories here. That's not what it's about. Where's the energy? Where's any of the inventiveness?

I mean, holy shit. Annie play acting at marriage? Britta shooing away the nerd herd following her? These felt like cast off jokes from "The Big Bang Theory." Are they raiding Chuck Lorre's garbage can after hours?

"You're on your own, Al Capone." Jesus.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

It's also weird that through 3 episodes there hasn't been a single sitting-around-the-study-table scene yet.

[Ivan Drago]

Mine: Eh.

Same here. Matt Lucas was a nice surprise, and I loved the conflicts between Jeff/Annie and Troy/Abed. Still, a part of me thinks Annie was a little too obsessed with Jeff here, and there was something out of character with Jeff in the end.

And Irish is right. I still enjoy the show, but it's not what it used to be. When Dan Harmon got fired, all of the show's ambition left with him.

[Henry Gale]

It's also weird that through 3 episodes there hasn't been a single sitting-around-the-study-table scene yet.

I know! I thought about this right as the episode started and once Troy and Jeff were walking to the study room I thought, "Oh ok, here we go", but nope! They just turn the light back off on Pierce and never return to it...?

All three episodes have basically been versions of what fans look at as the "special / weird" episodes from the first three years, but they've seemingly forgotten that they also had normal, school-centered ones to make the wackier ones ones feel like unexpected breaths of fresh air.

[MadMan]

I just don't know anymore. I'm going to finish out the season, but if things get ugly I'm cutting ties. Considering that Archer and The Americans are on FX, The Walking Dead on AMC, plus Doctor Who is coming back next month I have tons of options. Not to mention my ever growing Netflix queue full of TV shows that are plenty worthy of my time.

[Ivan Drago]

I just don't know anymore. I'm going to finish out the season, but if things get ugly I'm cutting ties. Considering that Archer and The Americans are on FX, The Walking Dead on AMC, plus Doctor Who is coming back next month I have tons of options. Not to mention my ever growing Netflix queue full of TV shows that are plenty worthy of my time.

New Girl is the only current comedy I'll probably start after the show ends, but that still wouldn't fill the void.

[Irish]

It's also weird that through 3 episodes there hasn't been a single sitting-around-the-study-table scene yet.

They kinda made a reference to that, when Abed is watching the CCTVs in Pierce's house last week. He says, "I remember when this show used to be about a community college." I get the sense that they're trying broaden the show, make it somehow more accessible.

For my money, though, the weird ass setting was one of their biggest assets.

[Irish]

I still enjoy the show, but it's not what it used to be. When Dan Harmon got fired, all of the show's ambition left with him.

I didn't think the change would be this noticeable this quickly. Harmon's stuff felt like it was flying by at 120mph. The new guys are moving at the speed of a half-broken golf cart.

[MadMan]

New Girl is the only current comedy I'll probably start after the show ends, but that still wouldn't fill the void.I have very little interest in watching that show, despite hearing positive things about it.

[Sycophant]

Guys, guys, guys.

That was awful.

[slqrick]

I went back and watched that episode from last season where Annie comes to terms with her feelings for Jeff again, and it's just sad how far back they've rebooted her character to wring some last bits of the "will they/won't they" horseshit. That whole pretend marriage sequence fell really, really flat for her. They're having issues with the Troy/Britta relationship too.

The only redeeming quality of that episode was the Troy and Abed stuff. I think it was a misstep to have a whole episode based around Inspector Spacetime...I like Doctor Who, but that joke has run its course.

[Mara]

Bad as advertised.

The only mildly funny line: "I need to call science."

Tricia Helfer looks great as a brunette, but we already knew that.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The show just feels weird now. Like, the C-plot with Shirley and Pierce didn't have an arc. They just cut to it once or twice, and then the tag wrapped it up. And the B-plot with Annie's weird-ass marriage role-play felt reductive (and kinda desperate as an appeal to shippers). Meanwhile, Matt Lucas was unfunny, and the show didn't really know what to do with its setting. Shirley becomes a viewer proxy by saying Spacetime doesn't condescend and so on, but then Britta shoos away a bunch of desperate nerds.

Tying that back into Britta's skimpy opening, the show's course-correcting her into a more traditional female role, when she's worked best as the group butt-monkey.

Mostly, though, I didn't laugh. I smiled once or twice.

[MadMan]

I will admit I did laugh when Troy told Britta to "Remind me never to put you down as my emergency contact." The opener in the right hands could have been funny or at least amusing, but it was neither. Keep in mind that the show still hasn't reached the low depths it hit with the utterly terrible Jack Black episode yet. YET.

[Bosco B Thug]

I will admit I did laugh when Troy told Britta to "Remind me never to put you down as my emergency contact." The opener in the right hands could have been funny or at least amusing, but it was neither. Keep in mind that the show still hasn't reached the low depths it hit with the utterly terrible Jack Black episode yet. YET. Naah, no episode from Season 1-3 is as bad as these three episodes.

That said, liked the ep. Less lame jokes than last week's episode. That's the criteria I hold this show to now. Everyone's down on the Annie plot but hey, that's what I call taking advantage of a hotel room.

[EyesWideOpen]

I'm not a hardcore Community fan but I like the show and have watched all of it so far. The first three episodes of this season don't feel that different from anything in the first three seasons too me. Not really understanding the hate even after reading through this thread.

[number8]

Abed supposedly had all this analysis about Inspector Spacetime figured out, but he didn't realize until then why the Inspector has human companions? That's some basic Doctor Who shit. Rings incredibly false.

[number8]

The premise was a scrapped Harmon idea, by the way:

http://i.imgur.com/QJflNZA.png

[MadMan]

So the problem is that Dan Harmon didn't do it? I'm getting a little tired of people acting as if Dan Harmon is a fucking god. He had his fair share of missteps, too.

[DavidSeven]

Britta's opening Tarzan stunt was bad-sitcom bad. Jeff and Annie's heart-to-heart was painfully awkward. Everything in between ...just painful.

[Sycophant]

So the problem is that Dan Harmon didn't do it? I'm getting a little tired of people acting as if Dan Harmon is a fucking god. He had his fair share of missteps, too.

He was also the driving force behind this very show that he created and his authorial direction is noticeably missing in these new episodes. The show feels so much more bland sitcom now in these three new episodes than I can ever point to it being before, albeit with more nerd references and forced "lol meta" humor.

It's not that there weren't lackluster episodes of Community before. It's that the way they were lackluster weren't so tremendously vapid, unambitious, and... just painful.

What made the weak or bad Harmon episodes bad was typically the show's underlying tones and themes overtaking the show in overly ambitious or unpolished ways, as I see it.

[Irish]

It's that the way they were lackluster weren't so tremendously vapid, unambitious

^ Thiiiiiiiiiis!

No matter what missteps I believe Harmon took, I could never really fault him for lack of ambition. The show had voice. Now it has none.

[number8]

I'll say this, though. The show still has a really good grasp on continuity and easter eggs.

[ledfloyd]

I feel like if Harmon would've done that episode, he would've done it completely differently. That Annie plot would not have existed, for example. It's not the content so much as the way the content is delivered.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, that was terrible. I knew I was in for a steaming pile after Britta's acrobatics followed by Abed's 'I like donuts.' FUCK YOU NETWORK EXECS. Most of these actors must be screaming on the inside.

[Qrazy]

I'm not a hardcore Community fan but I like the show and have watched all of it so far. The first three episodes of this season don't feel that different from anything in the first three seasons too me. Not really understanding the hate even after reading through this thread.

No offense but I guess you're oblivious?

[Irish]

Most of these actors must be screaming on the inside.

I wondered at the time whether the focus-group subplot and Abed's eventual reaction to the Americanized Inspector Spacetime ("I .. hate.. you") was supposed to play like some kind of meta commentary on "Community's" own turnover, network notes, and change in showrunners.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I wondered at the time whether the focus-group subplot and Abed's eventual reaction to the Americanized Inspector Spacetime ("I .. hate.. you") was supposed to play like some kind of meta commentary on "Community's" own turnover, network notes, and change in showrunners.

The focus-group was definitely a commentary on the show. Fair to guess the tag was intentional too.

[EyesWideOpen]

No offense but I guess you're oblivious?

Could be. Or it could be that people with pre-existing biases would be inclined to hate something no matter how it actually turned out.

[MadMan]

He was also the driving force behind this very show that he created and his authorial direction is noticeably missing in these new episodes. The show feels so much more bland sitcom now in these three new episodes than I can ever point to it being before, albeit with more nerd references and forced "lol meta" humor.

It's not that there weren't lackluster episodes of Community before. It's that the way they were lackluster weren't so tremendously vapid, unambitious, and... just painful.

What made the weak or bad Harmon episodes bad was typically the show's underlying tones and themes overtaking the show in overly ambitious or unpolished ways, as I see it.Look I agree that Harmon made the show what is, and he made it great. At the same time people have selective memory-aka the godawful Jack Black episode, which came from Harmon. That said, I wasn't happy about him being kicked off the show. NBC hates Community for some reason, and I can't figure it out. Maybe they're pissed that it didn't become a hit like The Big Bang Theory? Never mind that Community was never that type of show in the first place....

Also the people who hated this episode have that right. I didn't hate it but I sure as hell didn't like it.

[Qrazy]

Could be. Or it could be that people with pre-existing biases would be inclined to hate something no matter how it actually turned out.

I don't think that's it. I want to still like the show and I want the show to still be funny, but it does feel different now. The one off jokes used to be witty in jokes, now they're about donuts or they're quirky non-sequiturs (Al Capone). Character arcs have no flow and narrative threads are promptly abandoned. Where the hell is Chang after that initial Terminator joke set-up?

[MadMan]

Quiet, Qrazy. No Chang is a good thing. I'm glad they have completely abandoned him, although I agree that it made no sense to feature him in the first episode randomly.

[Sycophant]

Look I agree that Harmon made the show what is, and he made it great. At the same time people have selective memory-aka the godawful Jack Black episode, which came from Harmon. That said, I wasn't happy about him being kicked off the show. NBC hates Community for some reason, and I can't figure it out. Maybe they're pissed that it didn't become a hit like The Big Bang Theory? Never mind that Community was never that type of show in the first place....

Also the people who hated this episode have that right. I didn't hate it but I sure as hell didn't like it.

Look. I explained to you how I think even in the context of bad Harmon episodes. I don't know who you're railing against with this selective memory thing. I don't know what or who you're addressing, but I don't think it's me or anyone here.

[MadMan]

Look. I explained to you how I think even in the context of bad Harmon episodes. I don't know who you're railing against with this selective memory thing. I don't know what or who you're addressing, but I don't think it's me or anyone here.No I think there are plenty here with selective memory, as there are on RT.

[Sycophant]

Lol.

[number8]

No I think there are plenty here with selective memory, as there are on RT.

You're gonna have to be more specific, because I think everyone acknowledged that there were bad episodes in S1-3.

[MadMan]

You're gonna have to be more specific, because I think everyone acknowledged that there were bad episodes in S1-3.Irish doesn't count.


Lol.Great talk, we should have it again sometime.

[Thirdmango]

No I think there are plenty here with selective memory, as there are on RT. Irish doesn't count.

I just looked through the first ten pages of our Community thread. There is at least one bad thing said on each page about some episode or another. Irish isn't seen in the first 10 pages and I wasn't counting you. The only time the Jack Black episode is even mentioned is when EWO on page nine says it's the bad part of season 1. If you're contending that we as a forum have not been saying bad things about the show online then you need to go back and read through it because we (as a whole) clearly did. There is a whole hell of a lot more that is said that is good but even the die hards say one or two things they disliked including bad episodes.

The Jack Black episode might be mentioned further but I didn't want to go through all 35 pages as it seemed 10 pages was enough to show that people don't have some selective memory.

[transmogrifier]

I rewatched Season 3 and some of those episodes in the first half are heavy going. I think the pilot of that season is close to their worst ever, though I've still got that Abed-as-Jesus one pegged as #1, but having seen it only once.

[number8]

Irish doesn't count.

You're making shit up now.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I remember liking the Jack Black episode. Or at least the gag where he says "Come on guys, it's not like I'm going to throw off the groups ti-" CUT TO CREDITS "-ming."

[DavidSeven]

I really don't think I have any biases in favor of Harmon and don't consider myself part of the Community die-hards. I thought there were a number of missteps in writing last year. I know I thought the PBS, Shirley's wedding and Hulk-Seacrest episodes were just downright bad.

I certainly feel this is the type of show that relies heavily on authorship and that the rest of this season is probably doomed to fail, but I have no rooting interest against the new guys. I still want to be entertained and still like most of these actors.

[MadMan]

Okay maybe my response was selective memory, or I didn't properly phrase my posts correctly. Except I wasn't making shit up, and I actually do recall plenty of praise for Harmon without hardly anyone (save for Irish, who actually had a beef with this thread being number 8 and myself, plus a few others heavily defending the show, not to mention coloring over certain issues) bashing him for what he did wrong. I'll stand by my overall problem with the fact that certain problems with the show now stem for what was done in Season 3, which Harmon still was a part of. And I'll note that I'm no longer certain that Harmon could have saved Season 4. Maybe the show was better off having been canceled by NBC in Season 3 if this is how Season 4 is going to go.

PS: Unfortunately due to a new thread being created I have the most responses for thread covering a season that is possibly going downhill. Wonderful.

[transmogrifier]

Just watched the first three episodes.....

and I liked them. Better than a few of last season. The premiere is a million times better than the premiere of S3.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

[Thirdmango]

Yes there is plenty of defending going on, but that goes on in basically every thread. Speaking from my side, I'm not going to go into a thread just because I don't like a show. I could go on and on about why I don't like Mike and Molly but I stopped watching it. There is always going to be a lot more support in a television show forum for the show then against because the people who stick with it are going to be the people commenting. To even get to season 13 you need to have dedicated around 26 hours of time and if you didn't like it up to that point why are you still around? So yes, you are right that the majority of the posts are and were positive. That doesn't mean there weren't a fair share of negative comments all through out the entire show run. You may have selective memory because you're only remembering comments that occurred during the later half of season 3 when only the die hards and Irish for some reason was still watching.

I personally disagree with your statement about season 3 though. What I personally agree with is the ambition is gone. Even with some bad episodes, with the ambition the show could still be going strong in the 4th season.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Yes there is plenty of defending going on, but that goes on in basically every thread. Speaking from my side, I'm not going to go into a thread just because I don't like a show. I could go on and on about why I don't like Mike and Molly but I stopped watching it. There is always going to be a lot more support in a television show forum for the show then against because the people who stick with it are going to be the people commenting. To even get to season 13 you need to have dedicated around 26 hours of time and if you didn't like it up to that point why are you still around? So yes, you are right that the majority of the posts are and were positive. That doesn't mean there weren't a fair share of negative comments all through out the entire show run. You may have selective memory because you're only remembering comments that occurred during the later half of season 3 when only the die hards and Irish for some reason was still watching.


Can we make this the sub-heading for the forum itself? :P

[ledfloyd]

The beginning of season three was pretty bad and aimless, Intermediate Chaos Theory aside. It hit a nadir around the Christmas break with the Glee episode and the impressionists episode before stringing together some of the best stuff the show has ever done.

[Acapelli]

hey madman i think this show mostly sucks what about me huh

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Apparently tonight's was produced as the second episode, which explains why the Chang thing wasn't addressed for the last two weeks. That said, his reintroduction continues to feel a little forced. And did we really need more of the Germans? Especially without Nick Kroll?

[Mara]

This was a step forward, I thought. Study room shenanigans are a plus, and the German stereotypes were pretty funny. (Of course they love red balloons!) And I like Malcolm McDowell.

The Chang/Dean stuff was stupid, though.

[slqrick]

Finally bringing the study room back felt nice in a comfort food sort of way, but I thought it was a mostly bad episode. I don't get the point of bringing back the Germans sans Kroll, and the Chang arc is just completely forced in to make good with the NBC execs. The jokes were better overall, but it's just tough to see little of this stuff sticks. The scene where Pierce getting zapped was awful.

[dreamdead]

The fact that they're being aired out of order throws it all off (this was the second episode filmed and was meant to follow the premiere) narratively. I admit that I too laughed at the luft balloons reference, but largely because it's so absurd that it goes beyond stupidity. Not all of it translated so well.

Specifically, I don't like undercutting the value of the Fat Neil episode, and numerous other aspects here echo this problem. I like the avclub review that suggests this season's all about the show knowing its own Wikipedia history. Very apropos. And this season has already hypersexualized Anne/Britta more than any other season (German outfits, really?)...

[slqrick]

And this season has already hypersexualized Anne/Britta more than any other season (German outfits, really?)...

Nothing out of the ordinary for Annie, but I thought they did it well in "wink wink" ways last season (the Christmas ep). The stuff they've done with Britta is much more egregious, because they've dropped the "Britta is the worst" aspect of her character which made it fun in favor of having her fill out the more conventional hot female role.

[number8]

I think that was the funniest episode this season so far, but the humor feels really off, even the funny ones. Like they wandered in from another show. In Season 2, Pierce fell off a trampoline and they kept him in a cast for like 6 episodes, leading to a painkiller addiction. Now he gets electrocuted as a throwaway gag? Community is zany, but it's never been a live-action cartoon.

I also hope Malcolm McDowell has more episodes, because if that was it, jesus, what a waste.

[Gizmo]

Best episode of the season, I thought. Almost felt like Community. I never really liked Chang, but thought the Dean half of that story line was pretty funny. "He's always Dean that" lol

[transmogrifier]

I must be one of the few who really, really wishes the Dean character didn't exist.

[Qrazy]

I think that was the funniest episode this season so far, but the humor feels really off, even the funny ones. Like they wandered in from another show. In Season 2, Pierce fell off a trampoline and they kept him in a cast for like 6 episodes, leading to a painkiller addiction. Now he gets electrocuted as a throwaway gag? Community is zany, but it's never been a live-action cartoon.

Zombie episode?

[number8]

Zombie episode?

That's an over the top premise and they've done plenty of those (KFC rocket immediately comes to mind), but even within that, I don't remember any gags in that ep that treat the characters like Looney Tunes. The closest thing I can remember is when they showed that Jeff has a mechanical heart, and I though that was a terrible gag too.

[Qrazy]

That's an over the top premise and they've done plenty of those (KFC rocket immediately comes to mind), but even within that, I don't remember any gags in that ep that treat the characters like Looney Tunes. The closest thing I can remember is when they showed that Jeff has a mechanical heart, and I though that was a terrible gag too.

Yeah I agree with you that both of those gags are terrible but I also think that since it's inception the show has become increasingly unhinged.

[MadMan]

hey madman i think this show mostly sucks what about me huhYou are usually grumpy? :P

I liked the mechanical heart.

Despite some bad jokes (and yes the Germans were awful) I liked last week's episode. At least it made me laugh, which is what I've set the new (read: low) bar for this season as. Chang though is terrible and I wish he would just go away for good.

The Thanksgiving episode was pretty funny, and makes me wonder why the show has never done one before. Or maybe they have and I just forgot.

[Sycophant]

Probs because with Halloween and Christmas and whatever other holidays they decide to focus on in any given year, a Thanksgiving episode usually feels like overkill or redundant.

[MadMan]

Probs because with Halloween and Christmas and whatever other holidays they decide to focus on in any given year, a Thanksgiving episode usually feels like overkill or redundant.They could decide not to have an episode focus on Halloween or X-Mas, though. I would love a St. Patrick's Day one.

[Mara]

I would love a St. Patrick's Day one.

I loved our fake-flashbacks to a St. Patrick's Day episode.

And this episode was solid, with some good emotional moments.

[Ivan Drago]

I loved our fake-flashbacks to a St. Patrick's Day episode.

And this episode was solid, with some good emotional moments.

Agreed. I personally feel like it's close enough to what it used to be.

[Qrazy]

They really don't have any idea what to do with Britta anymore.

[transmogrifier]

I thought that was easily the worst episode of the season so far. Britta just turning up at the house was poor plotting, all the stuff with the half-brother fell flat, and the Shawshank homage was half-hearted.

I don't know why they bothered pairing Troy and Britta to be honest. It doesn't generate any jokes or any interesting plot lines.

[Qrazy]

I thought that was easily the worst episode of the season so far. Britta just turning up at the house was poor plotting, all the stuff with the half-brother fell flat, and the Shawshank homage was half-hearted.

I don't know why they bothered pairing Troy and Britta to be honest. It doesn't generate any jokes or any interesting plot lines.

Or chemistry.

[[ETM]]

They really don't have any idea what to do with any of the characters anymore.

Fixed.

[Qrazy]

Weak ass dig at Tree of Life this past episode. Have they decided their audience is now composed of a bunch of philistine morons?

[Sycophant]

I don't know why they bothered pairing Troy and Britta to be honest. It doesn't generate any jokes or any interesting plot lines.

So much so, they can't even be bothered to acknowledge its existence in four out of six aired episodes (or did it get a nominal mention in one I'm forgetting?). The current writers have no idea what to do with it. They're putting together far more Jeff-Britta scenes than Troy-Britta scenes.

I'd imagine because what the Troy-Britta relationship might really be as an entity was never addressed before this season so it has no identity in this incarnation of the show, which seems determined to make sure the characters are frozen at the end of season three forever. Everyone is flattening fast. If the show had a real flaw in the Harmon era, it's that it was pushing itself too hard and brazenly and occasionally half-cockedly in meeting its weird ambitions. This season here is some contented, appeasing retready stuff we're seeing now.

[Sycophant]

I've been rewatching episodes from the first three seasons, including some of the weaker ones from season three, just to check if I'm talking out my ass as much as certain people accuse. There are still episodes I don't like all that much, but there's some real spark missing from the current season which was apparent to me even in its weakest previous moments. There was a joy to seeing the characters interact before that is all but missing now.

I do think the show made some missteps in making Chang's character so unrecoverable in the middle of season two. I wish they'd found a better place for him. This last episode made me think they'd found a comfortable role for him which I thought was okay, despite the overall limpness and unfuniness of the pepisode (I really like Ken Jeong as a performer), but of course the tag had to undercut that, letting me know we're in for some pared-down (or just tweaked) rehash of City College and evil Chang plots.

I can't not watch it though. My curiosity is too strong. And I do have the smallest spark of hope, especially considering a fifth season doesn't look wholly unlikely, that the show will find new footing.

[transmogrifier]

Yeah the Chang character worked best in his Season 1 incarnation, and since then he's been a shoe-horned in annoyance. But I also think the same thing about the dean.

[Sycophant]

Can someone remind me what the mechanical heart is? I straight up can't recall what that is.

Ken Jeong in season 1 is a legitimately great thing about in season 1. Same can be said for John Oliver. Both used expertly.

[number8]

Can someone remind me what the mechanical heart is? I straight up can't recall what that is.

It's in the Shirley wedding episode. Annie criticizes Jeff for not being for the wedding, Jeff looks down at his chest and we get an x-ray of it. His heart turns into a slot machine cycling through the things he cares about.

[number8]

That episode did not need the documentary gimmick AT ALL.

[Mara]

That episode did not need the documentary gimmick AT ALL.

The show has already done it. Better.

[Bosco B Thug]

Yep everything said... speaking of recycling, I'm so angry at this episode for ruining the "Chang eating sister's fetus" joke by mentioning it twice. Ug. Actually, references to past episodes and picking up recurring gags has been the bane of this season.

[number8]

The show has already done it. Better.

THREE TIMES.

It's like they said, "Hey, those three documentary episodes we did were cool, huh? You know, we never did parody Grizzly Man." "Oh, man, let's do THAT. We can do another one!" And then forgot to figure out the rest.

[transmogrifier]

Can someone remind me what the mechanical heart is? I straight up can't recall what that is.

Ken Jeong in season 1 is a legitimately great thing about in season 1. Same can be said for John Oliver. Both used expertly.

Yes, I miss Oliver.

[DavidSeven]

seems determined to make sure the characters are frozen at the end of season three forever. Everyone is flattening fast.

This is probably the biggest problem. I'd take a heap of legitimate character development over the loads of self-referential humor that the new creatives seem intent on delivering over all else. I felt this way, to a degree, about the Harmon regime too, but he at least seemed to have a clue about what he wanted to do with these people.

Last two episodes weren't very good. At all.

[number8]

Heh, I liked this episode. Everybody seemed like their old self, the sweetness felt genuine, no forced gimmicks just to keep up with Harmon's ideas. Not going to be a particularly memorable episode, but nothing in it felt off for once. It could've been a missing episode from Season 1 if it wasn't for the Britta/Troy in bed tag. Best episode this season so far.

[slqrick]

I thought it was one of the worse episodes of the season so far, aside from the Dean, and a couple of good moments between Jeff and Pierce. The Abed frat storyline was a complete waste, Annie just followed around the Dean the whole episode doing nothing, and the Troy/Shirley arc just wasn't as entertaining as it should have been. I hated the 80's gym montage. It felt like an older episode of Community, but I just didn't find much of it funny or working on an emotional level at all.

[Thirdmango]

I did have about three laugh out loud moments during this episode so I may have to say it's the best of the season so far.

[Gizmo]

I miss "Troy and Abed in the morning" as the tag.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I liked. Felt like they found a way to blend the old characters and new, more casual sitcom-hangout vibe.

[transmogrifier]

The first four episodes >>> the last three.

[MadMan]

The Chang centric episode was godawful. Quite possibly the worst episode in the history of the show, and that's when also remembering the largely unfunny Jack Black one in Season 1. Ugh.

However despite an uneven main plotline I liked last week's. Jeff and Pierce were really strong together in the barbershop. The problem is that I finally witnessed a truly hilarious moment in the season: Magnitude's wary, tired look and him saying he had spent the entire night trying to come up with a new catchphrase while writing ones on a chalkboard. Now that was truly funny.

I'll stick with the show because I'm stubborn, but it currently has that "Season 6 of 24" vibe going on where if the show does actually survive next season things need to be shaken up and changed. Because whatever they have now is not working. I still miss the writers from the past couple of seasons more than Dan Harmon, though, although the show would still be decent if Harmon had reminded in charge.

[Gizmo]

I feel like tonights episode was decent. More hit than miss.

[number8]

I liked it. Britta felt like Britta again. Good use of Pierce too.

"What is the nature of hope?" made me laugh really hard.

[Bosco B Thug]

Probably the best, or at least most comforting, of the season. Still suffers from over-reflexivity (twice use of the word "bit" ugh writers I hate you) and lack of scope (Really, a whole episode devoted to remuneration of the "Britta it" gag?).

[Mara]

I found Abed's arc really charming? This was his strongest love interest since that FBI lady.

Other than that, not too bad. Nothing awful.

[ledfloyd]

I found Abed's arc really charming? This was his strongest love interest since that FBI lady.

Other than that, not too bad. Nothing awful.
Yeah, it was great. I'm kind of in love with coat check girl too.

[MadMan]

Wow I really liked the latest episode a lot. It was funny, it had some good jokes, the end was heartwarming, and I didn't mind the 90s reference even though one of the songs that was played is one I've never liked. Considering how up and down this season has been I've learned to take the bad with the good, however I think this might be the closest we've gotten to near great all season long.

[DavidSeven]

This was actually quite good. They did a great job with coach check girl and Britta. I laughed and felt things.

Promising.

[EyesWideOpen]

Yeah, it was great. I'm kind of in love with coat check girl too.

Brie Larson is adorable.

[MadMan]

Brie Larson is adorable.Yes, yes she is. So will she be making a re-appearance anytime soon? I sure hope so. They never featured the Secret Service woman who fell in love with Abed in Season 2 ever again, which sucks because that episode was great.

[Sycophant]

God willing we can land every character in a total nothing background-static relationship like Troy and Britta.

[Sycophant]

Yo, what's up, just feelin' a bit grumpy. Episode was probably the best of this season. Helped that it indulged my favorite very-stupid plot device of two dates at once.

[EvilShoe]

Since getting away from the high concept episodes, this season has become more bearable. I still don't get the Troy-Britta pairing, though. It's just there.

[Sycophant]

Except for the fact that it's usually not even there.

[EvilShoe]

Except for the fact that it's usually not even there.
I dunno, maybe it's a spiel on how love evaporates once you've gotten past the initial lovey-dovey phase. By skipping those moments, instead leaving us to wonder why these two are together.

Is it meta? Maybe it's meta? Bring on Eternal Sunshine spoof episode.

[MadMan]

I dunno, maybe it's a spiel on how love evaporates once you've gotten past the initial lovey-dovey phase. By skipping those moments, instead leaving us to wonder why these two are together.

Is it meta? Maybe it's meta? Bring on Eternal Sunshine spoof episode.I would welcome such an episode.

And anyways its wishful thinking on my part that Brie Larson sticks around. Its probably just a one time thing that they will forget about. Granted this season has been so up and down anything can happen, but still....

[Qrazy]

What the fuck did I just watch.

[Acapelli]

this might be a new low for the show. disappointed especially after last week's solid outing

[ledfloyd]

I'm curious to know what you guys didn't like about it because I thought it was great.

[Qrazy]

I'm curious to know what you guys didn't like about it because I thought it was great.

Well, I thought it wasn't very funny which is par for the course for this show at this point. The jokes didn't land and the timing is off. That said, my reaction was more to witnessing George Costanza bring a bunch of puppets on an acid trip. 'What the fuck' seemed like the only appropriate response.

[ledfloyd]

Yeah, the current incarnation is certainly less funny, and I think that is the intent of the creators. There were still some lines that landed for me. Like Troy's bit about the Blue Man Group. The songs were great, and Alexander's Muppet Show cameo was fantastic.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

If it's the intent of the creators to be less funny, they should probably examine their priorities.

[ledfloyd]

If it's the intent of the creators to be less funny, they should probably examine their priorities.
Well, perhaps that's not the right way to put it. I think one of the NBC execs claimed it was "basically the same show with a little more heart" and while I would disagree with the first part, I think episodes like last night's definitely put that heart in the forefront, and care less about making you laugh until you cry.

[Mara]

I don't think it landed exactly, but I appreciate its enthusiasm and ambition. But, let's face it, NO show is ever going to top the puppet episode of Angel. It's just not going to happen.

Plus, if this is the actual Chevy send-off (never came back from the woods) I will be very amused.

The funniest parts of the episode were Danny Glover playing with and reacting to his puppet.

[ledfloyd]

I don't think it landed exactly, but I appreciate its enthusiasm and ambition. But, let's face it, NO show is ever going to top the puppet episode of Angel. It's just not going to happen.
I think one of the reasons it succeeded were because it wasn't trying to inhabit the same space at all. It was more in line with The Muppet Show, with the songs, and the celebrity cameos, and the drug trips... strike that last one. The feel-good aspects of it are pure Jim Henson as well.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

The funniest parts of the episode were Danny Glover playing with and reacting to his puppet.

http://daviddemar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/danny-glover-lethal-weapon.jpg

[Gizmo]

Maybe it was Crispin?

[number8]

I think the only misstep was the fact that they built a lot of emotions up to reveals that were underwhelming (aside from Shirley's, which I thought was quite heartbreaking given her previous divorce). Other than that, it was fun. The songs were fantastic, and it's the first Dean costume this season that made me laugh very hard.

[number8]

Interesting. Todd VanDerWerff thinks it's the best of the season.

[ledfloyd]

Interesting. Todd VanDerWerff thinks it's the best of the season.
He's right.

[Ivan Drago]

He's right.

It's between this and the episode before it. But I thought a few of the character's confessions were out of character.

[Bosco B Thug]

It brought back a modicum of subversiveness and the rapid-fire stream of jokes.

Characters are still passive joke-carriers, but I'll call it best. Maybe...

[Dead & Messed Up]

Put me down as a fan of the episode. number8's right that the Big Terrible Secrets weren't all that Big and Terrible, given the buildup. I was struck by how little they seemed to surprise or affect me. But I thought the technique was fun, the songs were cute, and the for-the-hell-of-it psychotropic berries were really funny. Abed seamlessly going from sing-along to ball-tripping was a great moment.

[Mara]

http://daviddemar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/danny-glover-lethal-weapon.jpg

Huh. I think I was combining Donald Glover and Danny Pudi.

Although, for the record, Donald doesn't look like a Donald.

[number8]

He goes by DonGlover.

[DavidSeven]

I thought it was bad. The claymation and video game episodes at least had a semblance of underlying logic to them. This felt lazy. The details bothered me. Who's manning the Pierce puppet? Why does Chang's puppet have a puppet? How does Pierce's big secret get revealed in puppet-therapy-fantasy if he's not in the room? Maybe I was taking it all in too literally, but the episode doesn't really establish how we're supposed to take in this episode at all. Again, felt like lazy rehash of old ambitions without the proper execution.

Mainly, I didn't think it was particularly funny or engaging, and the characters went nowhere.

[Gizmo]

I have the feeling the episode was rushed together to explain away pierce without Chevy actually being there (hence the puppets). Now Pierce is gone with some kind of resolution and they can move on.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I have the feeling the episode was rushed together to explain away pierce without Chevy actually being there (hence the puppets). Now Pierce is gone with some kind of resolution and they can move on.

I could be wrong, but I think Chevy is still in a couple more eps.

[ledfloyd]

I could be wrong, but I think Chevy is still in a couple more eps.
He is, but this episode was at the end of the production order. He didn't want to be in it, but recorded his voiceover in order to get out of his contract.

[Gizmo]

I could be wrong, but I think Chevy is still in a couple more eps.

Well, according to IMDB there's only 3 episodes left in the season, so I can't imagine him being around too much longer if he cut out early.

[number8]

It's been confirmed that they already shot the season finale when Chevy quit.

[ledfloyd]

It's been confirmed that they already shot the season finale when Chevy quit.

" As a result of timing and the agreement made, Chase's character Pierce will only be absent for one episode—the episode that will air as the season finale was filmed out-of-sequence, as it was the eleventh episode produced, and will mark the final on-screen appearance of Chase. He also appeared in a voice-only role in the episode "Intro to Felt Surrogacy", which was the thirteenth and final episode produced, as part his agreement to leave the show, Chase was required to record all audio for the scenes where his character, alongside the other characters, appeared as a puppet."

[Gizmo]

well then. I thought he had cut out about halfway through shooting. He really couldn't go 1 more episode? I doubt the show is back for season 5, but if it is, Pierce will probably just have died or something in the offseason and they'll move on.

[Henry Gale]

Caught up with the last two episodes, and I thought the Sophie B. Hawkins Dance one was easily the best they've done since Harmon's departure, with Abed and the coat-check girl subplot really capturing a sort of genial relatability and sweetness I'd almost forgotten this show could achieve. Also, a lot of moments genuinely made me laugh out loud that actually pertained to the momentum of the story, instead of a throwaway Piece-Madea joke sorta way where it's basically just "Oh, that Pierce!" but makes little sense otherwise, which has kind of plagued a lot of this season's dialogue for me.

I was nowhere near as enamored by the puppet therapy episode. It just felt like a thin premise of an episode they figured would get by on the novelty of the felt caricatures of the group acting out the (pretty rote) material. Intentional or not, the basic flashback plot would've just been atrocious if they ever thought to do it live action. A drug trip accentuated by motion blur and frame-bending! Cutting edge! Also, Jason Alexander in the most pointless guest role this show has ever done. Sorry, Malcolm McDowell. You had multiple scenes.

The songs were okay, I guess, but they consistently built up musical and comedic rhythms in them that seemed like funny lines would fit perfectly every so often, but then they just sort of trailed off unremarkably. I do wonder how much of the lyrical content was Adam Levine and how much was the writers.

I also think I missed an episode somewhere. Something involving a Greendale whale? Worth catching up on? It's not like anything developments with these character matter anymore. I doubt we'll even see Brie Larson again... :sad:

[Thirdmango]

I doubt we'll even see Brie Larson again... :sad:

She's in two episodes this season.

[number8]

Apparently tonight's will be a Christmas episode.

[Qrazy]

Apparently tonight's will be a Christmas episode.

I thought the ep was solid, I like that they're coming back around on the darkest timeline stuff. My only major issue with it was the Britta/Troy relationship is still completely DOA. And also of course it's still not as funny as it once was and feels rather cloying. Also the Annie/Jeff relationship is being strangely handled.

[number8]

I actually hated the darkest timeline tag. Felt like a lazy, completely unwarranted callback. Unless it's teasing a future episode (probably).

Great use of McDowell.

[number8]

Pierce's lines for this episode, from the original script:

http://imgur.com/a/7rdrO

[ledfloyd]

I actually hated the darkest timeline tag. Felt like a lazy, completely unwarranted callback. Unless it's teasing a future episode (probably).
Yeah, it was awful.

[Sycophant]

The tag was terrible as it was (and starting as it did with kittens, its very beginning was the best 15 seconds of the episode) but if it was a real prelude to a future episode/story sequence where the timelines actually collide, then it was even worse. Despite the long-standing, frequently cartoony goofiness of the show, it hasn't yet done anything that actually straight up violates the show's reality with dorky sci fi bullshit.

The rest of the episode didn't really work for me either. They crammed a whole lot of direct callbacks to previous lines, episodes, and moments, and... that's about the function they served. The episode's vague attempt at a Rope homage was so lacking that I had to read about it later to know it was even supposed to be there.

The only possible satisfying payoff for the Troy-Britta relationship at this point is if Troy realizes he can only find satisfaction in his relationship with Abed and they start dating.

[Mara]

I actually hated the darkest timeline tag. Felt like a lazy, completely unwarranted callback. Unless it's teasing a future episode (probably).

Great use of McDowell.

My thoughts pretty much exactly.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'm not sure what to think about that tag. If it's teasing upcoming developments, ugh. If it's just a one-off bit of callbacky silliness, meh. If it's more a reference to the current Thursday lineup (Dark Jeff says "We've got a prime timeline (primetime line?) to destroy), then...buh?

[DavidSeven]

Jeff's end-of-episode monologues have started to feel really Full House-y in a non-ironic way.

The tag was dumb. As others have said, it was awful as both a teaser and a one-off bit. This show will be unwatchable if they plan to incorporate the darkest timeline stuff with the same half-assed silliness exhibited in the tag.

[Ivan Drago]

By the first commercial break, I was loving it. The camerawork was awesome, and the characters were themselves, at least to me, and the show didn't feel like a sitcom to me. I knew the episode was meant to parody Rope going in, but aside from the long takes in the beginning and the episode's title, I thought the episode had strayed away from that by the second commercial break. By the third commercial break, I was underwhelmed with the episode and wanted Chang to reveal he was faking his Changnesia already.

After the tag, I was fuming.

[number8]

Tonight's episode is written by Jim Rash. The premise is confounding.

Apparently Troy and Abed will have an electrical accident while holding a Freaky Friday DVD and magically switch bodies, so then Troy has to go on a date with Britta while trapped in Abed's body.

[DavidSeven]

Tonight's episode is written by Jim Rash. The premise is confounding.

Apparently Troy and Abed will have an electrical accident while holding a Freaky Friday DVD and magically switch bodies, so then Troy has to go on a date with Britta while trapped in Abed's body.

:|

[Qrazy]

So... back to square one... just where the show wants itself to be.

[DavidSeven]

Jeff getting his Danny Tanner on again. Just realizing that Season 4 Annie is almost entirely defined by her deranged obsessiveness for Jeff. The Britta/Troy season-long pairing was officially pointless.

Body switching stuff could have been a lot worse, I guess.

[number8]

Eh, I think building to a breakup is just as legitimate as building to an engagement or whatever.

[DavidSeven]

I agree, but I don't think they built toward anything. The relationship was a total non-entity all season.

[number8]

It was. I do think it was a really good breakup episode. I mean, it's obvious now that all the Troy-Britta scenes were intentionally meant to be awkward and bad (since they had almost the entire season in the can before they even started airing, so it's not like they made this development to counter the negative reaction), they made a reference to it being bad a couple of times in previous episodes, but I do wish that the build up was more interesting than just "hey we're dating now."

It's unfortunate because there's really so much to like in this episode, and I think if the pairing was handled better in previous episodes, this would be a home run episode. It has the best Dean jokes in a really long time (and it doesn't even require him to dress up), Pierce isn't depicted as an incompetent waste of space, Jeff has an actually well-written Winger speech for once, and most importantly, I feel like it's been so long since Abed and Troy's friendship is portrayed so genuinely caring rather than just "haha they do nerdy things together."

I think my biggest gripe is that Abed wears a Doctor Who t-shirt in the episode instead of an Inspector Spacetime one.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I really liked the tag.

[number8]

I agree with everything Todd VanDerWerff wrote in his review (http://www.avclub.com/articles/basic-human-anatomy,96556/) of the episode.

Especially this bit:


Practically speaking, though, that ends up being a bit of a mess. The episode ends with Britta giving Troy a big hug in the study room, because they’ve talked about how they know how to be each other’s friend and blah blah blah. But I just don’t buy that, no matter how crazy this group gets, Britta would appreciate having her breakup with her boyfriend initiated by somebody else. Yes, Troy comes in and completes the conversation, but the whole thing doesn’t work when it comes to recognizable human behavior, even for this show. Theoretically, this is supposed to be a story about Troy and Britta’s relationship, but it becomes yet another story about Troy and Abed, which means that Britta becomes a passenger in her own storyline. I liked the ultimate reveal that Troy asked Abed to do the bit, and I liked the way that it was used for the two of them to skirt around some uncomfortable emotions, but it still runs the risk of infantilizing essentially everyone in the vague proximity of the storyline.

But, also, weirdly, I liked it. Some of that was Glover and Pudi’s sense of playfulness, but some of it was also the ending, which doesn’t make sense on a logical level but ends up making sense on a weird emotional level. When Britta goes in for that hug, it feels earned, even though it has no right to. I think some of this is just the fact that the show has been on for four years and can coast on some of those character relationships, and some of it is just that this is a potentially potent area the show hasn’t bothered harvesting, and some of it is just the sheer forward momentum from having Gillian Jacobs and Donald Glover present and in that moment. I can’t put my finger on why I ended up liking this storyline, despite finding so much of it logically unbelievable, but I found myself weirdly moved by it. (Oh, there it is: I think that Jacobs played Britta’s ultimate moment of sympathy—when she realized that the “body swap” was Troy’s coping mechanism—just about perfectly, allowing me to overlook the logical problems with the story.)

[Irish]

I agree with everything Todd VanDerWerff wrote in his review (http://www.avclub.com/articles/basic-human-anatomy,96556/) of the episode.

Good Christ, wha a staggering intellectual cop out on his part. "This was false and didn't work at all, but you know what? I still liked it. It still moved me."

I think the larger problem is that these characters have always been woefully underwritten, and trying to have a character based moment with them now, four seasons in, just doesn't work.

Last night just felt like they grafted a cheesy gimmick onto a crappy rom-com plot.

[Gizmo]

I thought Glover's take on Abed was spot on. I actually enjoyed the episode for the most part.

[EyesWideOpen]

I thought Glover's take on Abed was spot on. I actually enjoyed the episode for the most part.

Same here. Glover's Abed was perfect. Pudi's Troy was awful. Otherwise really good episode.

[Dead & Messed Up]

It's an episode that really screams for a much better setup, but the Britta/Troy relationship has simply never been there. The whole thing amounted to a kind of narrative housekeeping, instead of a subplot coming to fruition. Handled about as gracefully as a Season Four episode of this show could. I did love how Jim Rash played Jeff, and how he took the opportunity to use the phrase, "when Jeffrey was inside of me." Repeatedly. Hilariously. And I loved how Annie was immediately turned on by his antics.

[Qrazy]

I liked this ep.

[number8]

I hated this ep.

[MadMan]

I liked the puppet episode a lot, actually. However 5-7 minutes in and I already hate the X-Mas episode enough I don't want to continue.

[Sycophant]

Wow.

[dreamdead]

"Wow" in a good or bad way?

To me, it felt the show was tasked with an impossible challenge. Live up to the eccentricity of the previous seasons, or diverge incredibly. Ultimately, it did neither, doubling down on the repetitions and callbacks that eventually neutered the very humor of those earlier moments (Britta'ed it, we made paintball cool, dice throwing). This whole season has felt so artificial and ephemeral and unresolved (what is Annie and Jeff's relationship?).

[Ivan Drago]

To me, it felt the show was tasked with an impossible challenge. Live up to the eccentricity of the previous seasons, or diverge incredibly. Ultimately, it did neither, doubling down on the repetitions and callbacks that eventually neutered the very humor of those earlier moments (Britta'ed it, we made paintball cool, dice throwing). This whole season has felt so artificial and ephemeral and unresolved (what is Annie and Jeff's relationship?).

They fucked up Jeff and Annie's relationship when it was decided to regress Annie's character to an extreme version of her season 1 self.

I dug the finale as an episode, but I agree with everything you said about this season, dreamdead. At least it wasn't turned into a multicam sitcom with a laughtrack. The writers didn't know what to do without Harmon's leadership and ambition, and probably still won't if the show gets renewed.

[Sycophant]

"Wow" in a really, really bad way. That was outright painful to watch.

It might have been tasked with an impossible challenge, but it not only failed to rise to that challenge, it shrunk from it.

[Sycophant]

Multicam sitcom with a laughtrack isn't the worst thing in the world. Remember how this season opened with a joke about how that was the worst thing? That joke would've worked better if it could have offered the season that followed as a counterpoint.

[Mara]

Awful.

And many other words, which also mean "awful."

[EvilShoe]

Cringe-worthy.

[ledfloyd]

Yeah, my thoughts here: http://www.soundonsight.org/thursday-comedy-roundup-community-finale/

edit: one of the worst aspects of the episode just occured to me. Jeff dealt with graduating from Greendale in the way Abed would've. It makes no sense!

[Ivan Drago]

It's now "a safe bet" that Community will get renewed, according to TVLine. (http://tvline.com/2013/01/04/tv-shows-renewed-cancelled-2013-abc-nbc-cbs-fox-cw/4/)

Old Yeller has rabies, NBC. Put it out of its misery.

[DavidSeven]

I want this show to be dead to me. It's crossed over into that area where I'm starting to think doing almost anything else would be a better use of time. The way they've cheapened all of the characters is also kind of depressing.

This episode was so, so bad. On multiple levels.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I haven't watched a single episode from this season. It used to be my favorite current comedy, and I couldn't have it break my heart by turning into some watered down shell of itself. All of the comments in this thread have confirmed my worst fears. I'm going to try my damnedest to never bend to temptation and watch them.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Yeah. That was really depressing.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I really wish it would be over now but Vulture is reporting a pick-up is "as good as done."

[number8]

Holy shit that was worse than my worst fears. What the fuck have they done to my show.

[number8]

Also, great job on focusing half the season on a City College/Chang subplot, guys. Really paid off there.

[ledfloyd]

The renewal is official. Will I be able to keep myself from watching?

[Ivan Drago]

I will, ledfloyd. I never thought I would abandon this show, but I am. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm starting to marathon Parks and Rec.

[EvilShoe]

Just set the cast free, NBC.

[Sycophant]

I will probably watch season five because I have no willpower.

I will almost certainly hate it.

I will spend a lot of time getting annoyed at the Internet conversation about it.

I will try to avoid participating in that conversation much.

[Ivan Drago]

Just set the cast free, NBC.

They're above the material at this point.

[Irish]

Just set the cast free, NBC.

They wouldn't want to go. It's still a good gig.

(Besides which, I think Danny Glover is the only one from the main cast who has a shot at a career. The rest of them ... Not so much).

[[ETM]]

McHale, Brie and Jacobs are doing pretty well, I think.

[Irish]

Depends on how you consider "doing well." I mean, they've all got jobs, which is good. On the other hand, "Community" is far and away the longest lasting, most significant thing any of them have done.

McHale is past 40 and strikes me as too indistinct for a lot of leading man roles. He's got no personality as a performer, aside from the caustic schtick he does on "The Soup."

Jacobs and Brie are pretty, but they're not pretty enough (or tall enough) to be leading ladies. Neither of them can really act. They're both thirty-ish, which means they're too old for highschool roles and they're just about to enter the career deadzone for female performers in Hollywood. I don't think either of them are big enough to break out of that.

All of these guys are far too limited in their personas.

But: I could them knocking around sitcom pilots for the next decade or so. Which isn't a bad way to make a living.

[DavidSeven]

What are you talking about, man? Brie could stop acting tomorrow and she would have already had a nice career. Or are you just choosing to ignore her seven year run as a virtual regular on the most acclaimed TV show of the past decade? In a part, by the way, that is a complete departure from what she plays on Community.

Brie, McHale and Jacobs are all lined up for high profile movies right now.

[Gizmo]

3 seasons, 3 half seasons and a direct to tv movie? :confused:

[transmogrifier]

Almost perfect timing for Irish: Community finishes and in a couple of months Breaking Bad will be back for hate-watching purposes.

[number8]

I actually really do want to see Donald Glover do something else. I really liked Mystery Team.

I think 13 eps is a good compromise though. Leaves them time to do other projects.

[ledfloyd]

What are you talking about, man?
We just need to step back and accept that Irish inhabits a different universe than the rest of us.

[EyesWideOpen]

http://www.deadline.com/2013/05/community-is-coming-back-will-dan-harmon-return-too/

That would be weird.

[Bosco B Thug]

http://www.deadline.com/2013/05/community-is-coming-back-will-dan-harmon-return-too/

That would be weird.
Please please please please please.

[Irish]

What are you talking about, man? Brie could stop acting tomorrow and she would have already had a nice career. Or are you just choosing to ignore her seven year run as a virtual regular on the most acclaimed TV show of the past decade? In a part, by the way, that is a complete departure from what she plays on Community.

Her role on "Mad Men" has never been substantial. She's barely a supporting character and appears in less than half the episodes of any given season. She's only written in when they're doing a story about Pete. Unlike other female regulars, she's never had her own story. The character is only superficially different from the one she plays on "Community," but then again that's not saying much as they're both underwritten. For my money, her line readings are terrible. Go back and watch a recent episode where she confronts Pete and watch how the camera keeps clipping her lines and cutting away from her as soon as it can. I'm figuring that's not an accident; it's by design or, worse, by necessity.

Looking at her filmography, she's never done anything approaching the profile of "Community" and "Mad Men," which are both low rated shows. I think to a certain demographic, that spends a lot of time gawking at her GQ photo shoots, she seems much more famous than she actually is.

If she retired now, nobody would remember who she was in five years & I doubt she'd have enough money to live on.


Brie, McHale and Jacobs are all lined up for high profile movies right now.

Where none of them, as far as I can tell, are playing leads. Maybe they'll get lucky and land another ensemble gig, but if not then what are their options?