View Full Version : The West Wing
Lucky
12-27-2012, 02:29 AM
I encourage everyone jumping into this show with its recent addition to Netflix Instant Watch to join me in watching it for the first time.
It's pretty amazing to see how far television has evolved during the past decade. Shows in this vein are rarely pitched to major networks these days, but I could see it right at home on AMC, FX, or even HBO. I can already begin seeing branches of great modern shows in the roots laid here. I'm glad I'm finally taking the plunge...I'll do my best to document my thoughts.
Pilot (1.1)
-Rob Lowe hasn't aged a day in 12 years...how is that?
-The tracking shot through the oval office is impressive for a film, let alone a television pilot. You can tell very quickly that this show was striving for cinematic quality early on.
-The pins are set very cleanly - especially Sheen's introduction - and I'm interested in what's to come. Definition of a successful pilot.
ledfloyd
12-27-2012, 02:31 AM
i'm going to give this a shot out of respect for mara.
Winston*
12-27-2012, 03:19 AM
Enjoyed the show for a while, but got kind of bored of it by the end of the second season. Everyone's so noble. Might give it another shot later on.
amberlita
12-27-2012, 04:20 AM
I rewatched the Pilot tonight because this thread made me nostalgic.
I'd never thought of it before, but as time has gone by and I've come to see the flaws in Sorkin's writing, I can see his manipulations at play. As awesome as that final scene is, there is no way in hell those right wing nutjobs got the Ten Commandments wrong.
I'm reading Team of Rivals now and seeing shades of Abraham Lincoln in Josiah Bartlett with his penchant for anecdotes.
And dammit, any day is better by virtue of more Bradley Whitford.
And dammit, any day is better by virtue of more Bradley Whitford.
This. My love for him is pure and abiding.
Also, as I'm sure I've mentioned, I'm seeing Richard Schiff live in a one-man play in January. I'm pretty excited about it.
Morris Schæffer
12-27-2012, 01:23 PM
I came close to the end. Not sure why I didn't finish it. I always liked it and loved it on occasion. Many memorable characters, Leo McGarry among them. I liked that they were all noble and chill with each other. Politics are frequently ugly and boring anyway. To me at least. But The West Wing was warm and comforting.
Thirdmango
12-27-2012, 09:39 PM
I'm a big fan of the show, I own all seven seasons though I've only been through the show once.
Lucky
12-28-2012, 02:51 AM
Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc (1.2)
-I'm guessing these tracking shots are going to be a staple here. I actually think I remember old interviews and press saying how they built the White House set specifically so that they can do this.
-Hey, it's Sydney Bristow's roommate.
-So Mackenzie from The Newsroom is Mandy 2.0, Sorkin?
-Rob Lowe's Parks and Rec character has more in common with Sam than I would have guessed. I also believe this call girl storyline is ridiculous.
amberlita
12-28-2012, 04:57 AM
Yeah the TV trope of the "walk and talk" basically had its origins in The West Wing. Get used to it.
Mandy is the most grating person on the show and is utterly useless. Sorkin must have realized this and dumped her character after the first season. I don't think that's any spoiler since I don't recall there being any explanation whatsoever for where her character went. She just simply wasn't there anymore in Season 2.
I wouldn't call Mack the Mandy 2.0 because I still find Emily Mortimer's performance charming at times. I really like Moira Kelly, but she makes a badly written character worse here with her eye-bulging spazz-outs and incessant smirking.
amberlita
12-28-2012, 04:59 AM
And yes, I did watch the episode, because I'm totally episode stalking you now.
I also can't stand Mandy. Sorkin's female characters are hit-and-miss. It's amazing to me that he could have a woman as nuanced and fascinating as Claudia Jean Cregg sharing screen time with silly, shallow Mandy.
Lucky
12-29-2012, 02:27 AM
A Proportional Response, Five Votes Down, The Crackpots and These Women (1.3-1.5)
-Nick Offerman and Elisabeth Moss in the same episode...and Offerman is talking about a wolves-only highway. Ron would approve.
-I can't imagine how many times they had to shoot the opening sequence in Five Votes Down.
-My favorite scene in these three episodes might have to be the one between CJ and Josh when he tells her about his security card.
-John Spencer is the highlight of the cast for me so far. I realized this in Five Votes Down.
Lucky
12-29-2012, 02:35 PM
Mr. Willis of Ohio (1.6)
-I find it both humorous and endearing that the senior staff is as close as they are. Chili, poker games, bar hopping, etc. Do any of them aside from Leo and Bartlett have a family?
-Apparently "dweeb" is not a word.
-I am now anti-door to door census.
-EDIT: I forgot to add that this episode contains more evidence that Sorkin is completely out of sync with 20-somethings. The dialogue of the guys in the bar was rich.
Question - what are the standout episodes of S1 that I should be looking forward to? So far, my favorite episode is probably Five Votes Down.
amberlita
12-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Mr. Willis of Ohio (1.6)
-I find it both humorous and endearing that the senior staff is as close as they are. Chili, poker games, bar hopping, etc. Do any of them aside from Leo and Bartlett have a family?
-Apparently "dweeb" is not a word.
-I am now anti-door to door census.
Question - what are the standout episodes of S1 that I should be looking forward to? So far, my favorite episode is probably Five Votes Down.
Ha! I was thinking the exact same thing.
I figured out what Mandy's problem is. She's a PR strategist and thus, by job description, has to be the one constantly trying to advocate for what looks good. One of the things I love about this show is that even the WW staffers can disagree with each other but they always do it intelligently and seem to like each other at the end of the day (a trait I criticized The Newsroom for lacking). But Mandy has to disagree with them for the sake of the one thing we hate most about Washington: that good people don't do the right thing because they believe it isn't politically advantageous. Moreover, Mandy lobbies to exploit small instances of humanity in the President to gain poll numbers. She's the enemy and she doesn't belong in Sorkin's idealized White House.
Anyway, Sorkin has always been an expert at Christmas specials. I love "In Excelsis Deo". Let "Bartlet Be Bartlet" and "Celestial Navigation" are really good episodes too. But there's a lot of small bits in the coming episodes involving Leo that maybe can't elevate the entire episode to greatness but are great moments in and of themselves.
I'm realizing most of my favorites are in Season 2.
Lucky
12-29-2012, 04:41 PM
The State Dinner (1.7)
-I was wondering if Stockard Channing was going to show up this season. Glad to have her on board.
-Hopefully we're done with the call girl now.
-The closing credits music is so...odd for this show. Especially after closing scenes like that. Completely jarring and one of the features that clearly date the show with the credits flashing over a random screenshot from the episode. Comparing its little whimsical riff to the majestic orchestral arrangement in the opening credits is equally as baffling.
-The closing credits music is so...odd for this show. Especially after closing scenes like that. Completely jarring and one of the features that clearly date the show with the credits flashing over a random screenshot from the episode. Comparing its little whimsical riff to the majestic orchestral arrangement in the opening credits is equally as baffling.
I hate the music, too. My sister (who watched the show when it aired) said you never heard the music, because they would use the time for a vocal announcement of upcoming shows, so it was just sort of a place-filler. I always mute it.
Watched some episodes today while baking. The "these women" speech about how awesome "these women" are still strikes me as being totally condescending. Look at them being able to dress and feed themselves! Just like real people!
Other than that, I'm surprised how many episodes and themes I like started so early on. Donna and Josh's chemistry is perfect from day one. Every scene with Bartlet and Leo (or Leo and anyone) is golden. And I love any time CJ gives someone hell, with extra points if it's Danny.
amberlita
12-31-2012, 02:19 AM
Watched some episodes today while baking. The "these women" speech about how awesome "these women" are still strikes me as being totally condescending. Look at them being able to dress and feed themselves! Just like real people!
Other than that, I'm surprised how many episodes and themes I like started so early on. Donna and Josh's chemistry is perfect from day one. Every scene with Bartlet and Leo (or Leo and anyone) is golden. And I love any time CJ gives someone hell, with extra points if it's Danny.
:lol: I never even thought about that with regards to the "these women" speech. It just always struck me as really phony.
For the longest time I didn't realize people were taken with Josh and Donna's chemistry because I was blinded by Josh and CJ's chemistry. I was still distracted by it even on rewatch this last week. It wasn't until "20 Hours in L.A." that I started to see what all the fuss was about.
I'd forgotten how powerful "Take This Sabbath Day" is. Probably because I tend to fall along CJ and Mandy's lines with regards to my feelings on the death penalty. But I was very moved by the episode this time around. Definitely a Season 1 highlight.
Though, there should be no way that Mr. Magoo knew that Bartlett had been spoken to by a quaker and a jew that day.
For the longest time I didn't realize people were taken with Josh and Donna's chemistry because I was blinded by Josh and CJ's chemistry. I was still distracted by it even on rewatch this last week. It wasn't until "20 Hours in L.A." that I started to see what all the fuss was about.
I never really felt much between CJ and Josh, but she and Sam have a couple moments, and Toby and CJ have a jokey-semi-serious flirtatious relationship. Oh, and CJ and Carol! Sheesh, CJ and everyone.
I'd forgotten how powerful "Take This Sabbath Day" is. Probably because I tend to fall along CJ and Mandy's lines with regards to my feelings on the death penalty. But I was very moved by the episode this time around. Definitely a Season 1 highlight.
No lie. This episode breaks my heart. I have powerfully mixed emotions on the death penalty, so this pushes all my buttons. Plus, you know, religion.
Did you know the priest at the end is Karl Malden? (Whom I love unreservedly?) This was his last acting job before his death.
I haven't gotten to that episode yet in my rewatch, and now I'm all excited.
Here's the transcript about "these women." Tell me if it's condescending or if I'm overly sensitive.
BARTLET
We were talking about these women.
JOSH
Yeah?
LEO
We can't get over these women.
BARTLET
Look at C.J. She's like a fifties movie star, so capable, so loving and energetic.
LEO
Look at Mandy over there. Going punch for punch with Toby in a world that tells women to sit down and shut up. Mandy's already won her battle with the President. The game's over, but she's not done. She wants Toby.
BARTLET
Mrs. Landingham. Did you guys know she lost two sons in Vietnam? What would make her want to serve her country is beyond me, but in 14 years, she's not missed a day's work, not one. There's Cathy, Donna, and Margaret.
"...they're our secretaries, but I figure we should mention them, too, since they're here."
number8
12-31-2012, 04:24 PM
Sorkin always gets a bit condescending when he's trying to praise a group of people, because his writing style often resembles a lecture and people in lesser positions don't really appreciate being lectured by the privileged elite about how valuable they are to them. It's like your boss complimenting you with, "Hey, apparently you do stuff for me!" Remember "Isaac and Ishmael"? 44 minutes of white men telling us that some Muslims are not terrorists. Fantastic.
Occasionally, Sorkin does realize this and have the throwaway minority characters call his white men characters out on it.
amberlita
12-31-2012, 06:06 PM
I had youtube'd that scene to watch it again and didn't quite see it as radically condescending as your summation suggested, Mara, though I know you were going for effect rather than accuracy. :lol:
I actually don't find the comments themselves to be particularly condescending. Telling a woman she has the beauty and charisma of a 50's movie star is a compliment. So is telling a woman you admire her tenacity and spirited debate or appreciating a mother's dedication to her country despite losing two children to an unpopular war.
What's condescending is that the conversation takes place at all, for the reasons number8 mentions. Why are a bunch of men standing in the corner sizing up the women in the room, remarking on how remarkable they are, as if their notability should be shocking to them (because women aren't usually this amazing?) and that they should be so tickled with themselves for having appreciated these women.
What's condescending is that the conversation takes place at all, for the reasons number8 mentions. Why are a bunch of men standing in the corner sizing up the women in the room, remarking on how remarkable they are, as if their notability should be shocking to them (because women aren't usually this amazing?) and that they should be so tickled with themselves for having appreciated these women.
I think you've put your finger on why it bothers me, exactly. Also, since Sorkin wrote both the characters and the scene in question, it feels like he's patting himself on the back for going so non-stereotypical.
Rewatched "In Excelsis Deo." Cried a little. When this show is on, it is ON. I love Toby forever.
number8
12-31-2012, 06:31 PM
Exactly. I think it's the same thing with "Isaac and Ishmael." It's not so much that the content is badly written, it's the sentiment behind it. So soon after 9/11, Sorkin decided that he needed to air a special non-continuity episode where his non-Muslim characters stand around for an hour explaining that Muslims can be Americans too. It's not a shock that people found it incredibly off putting.
amberlita
12-31-2012, 07:29 PM
I vaguely remember Isaac and Ishmael, but now I can't wait to watch it. It sounds amazing. :lol:
Just a nitpick, but how the hell does Charlie not have time to go to college because he has to take care of his little sister but he has time to work 20 hours a day at the White House?
number8
12-31-2012, 07:34 PM
I thought the issue wasn't time, but that he had to support his sister after their mother died?
amberlita
12-31-2012, 07:37 PM
I thought the issue wasn't time, but that he had to support his sister after their mother died?
Oh, right. I guess I think of it more in terms of time than money, since one could try to work through college and use loans. But that makes sense.
ledfloyd
01-01-2013, 07:02 PM
I just gave the Pilot a shot (bringing the total number of shows I'm currently in the middle of to an absurd level—I've watched the first season of Six Feet Under but I'm not sure when I'll have a chance to get back to it, I'm currently plodding through the final season of Frasier before bed when I'm half asleep, I started It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and am three episodes into Slings and Arrows, not to mention maintaining my episode a month pace with My So-Called Life and my intent to continue with Big Love at some point).
All that aside, I think I'm going to love this show. One of the best pilots I've seen.
Lucky
01-01-2013, 08:03 PM
Forgot to post comments on 1.8 & 1.9 and it has been a couple days so I don't really remember details.
In Excelsis Deo - 1.10
-Hey, Lieutenant Daniels! Playing a...cop.
-The flamingo exchange between CJ and Sam made me laugh.
-So Josh and Donna are gonna be a thing in the future, right? Or is this truly platonic?
-Charlie's exit after Mrs. Landingham's gutspill was quite awkward. Kinda ruined the moment.
-The Flamingo finally got desperate enough. Good for her.
-Oh yeah, no question about Josh & Donna.
Lucky
01-02-2013, 01:32 AM
Lord John Marbury (1.11)
-Poor Leo...hope he doesn't leave. Although I fear it's inevitable.
-CJ is campaigning hard for becoming my favorite character.
-Lord Marbury is a dick.
He Shall, from Time to Time... (1.12)
-Bartlet got some great lines this episode. "The hashtag is silent?" :lol:
-Was not expecting the President's medical bomb.
-Lord Marbury is still a dick.
-This show had to have won best camera work every single year. I really noticed the attention to camera angles during this episode.
-The Mayor got promoted...funny he plays the survivor when in Buffy he couldn't die.
I rather enjoy Lord John Marbury, just because he's such an excellent foil for all these government people who take themselves so seriously (especially Leo.)
Leo McGarry: You're really gonna let him loose in the White House, where there's liquor and women?
ledfloyd
01-02-2013, 03:45 AM
episode two wasn't quite as transcendent as the pilot. i see what Sorkin is trying to do with Mandy, but it doesn't quite work. and the call girl plotline IS ridiculous. that said, everything else is still pretty engaging. the dialogues, the sweeping tracking shots, it all works here in a way it didn't work for me on sports night and the newsroom. let's hope it keeps up.
number8
01-02-2013, 02:58 PM
In Excelsis Deo - 1.10
-Hey, Lieutenant Daniels! Playing a...cop.
First time I ever noticed Lance Reddick was on Oz, where he played a cop.
First time I ever noticed Lance Reddick was on Oz, where he played a cop.
I first saw him on Lost.
On this rewatch I am recognizing a bunch more actors. Look, Paris Geller from Gilmore Girls! Nick Offerman!
Lucky
01-02-2013, 11:32 PM
Take out the Trash Day (1.13)
The scene at the end was intense until it lost credibility when (A) Leo offered the girl her job back and (B) The girl accepted. (Speaking of which, is that the Gilmore Girls actress, Mara?) Am I really supposed to believe that the girl went back to her job the next day as if nothing happened? Who would continue to work there after that? I could use a little more bittersweet in this show, it's a little too sweet for my palette.
Yes, she was a regular on Gilmore Girls.
I think the same sentiment could have been conveyed (more realistically) by Leo just saying, "You understand why you can't have your job back."
She would say, "I know."
He would say, "It's not like it's my choice."
She would say, "I know."
Bam. No silliness needed.
ledfloyd
01-03-2013, 01:55 AM
six episodes in two days? i think it's safe to say i'm enjoying this show. also, i found the "these women" moment to be more condescending on the show than when i read the transcript. also, peggy olsen!
six episodes in two days? i think it's safe to say i'm enjoying this show. also, i found the "these women" moment to be more condescending on the show than when i read the transcript. also, peggy olsen!
It's Olson.
If it were Olsen, Peggy would have the same full name as a good friend of mine. She's one letter off.
And I'm glad you're enjoying it. I like it when MC has group watches/re-watches. And this is a great show.
ledfloyd
01-03-2013, 06:44 PM
Through ten episodes now (I'm on break, so cut me some slack). Two things: I adore Toby, and I kind of wish Bill Adama was on the supreme court.
Through ten episodes now (I'm on break, so cut me some slack). Two things: I adore Toby, and I kind of wish Bill Adama was on the supreme court.
We don't judge here. The faster you watch, the greater the accomplishment.
Also, "Let Bartlet be Bartlet" is ridiculously rousing. I don't care if it's unrealistic or not. Apparently, I am a dewy-eyed idealist.
Lucky
01-04-2013, 02:02 AM
Take This Sabbath Day (1.14)
I suppose I should have expected this given the episode's title, but this was some Newsroom-level preaching. This is the first episode I would say that I actually disliked. The A story wasn't a story, it was a sermon. The deaf campaign manager subplot wasn't very interesting. However, I do give credit to the ending that acknowledges my complaint about the show's excessive saccharinity. A dislike, but not a travesty. Over and onward...
ledfloyd
01-04-2013, 03:40 AM
-Bartlet got some great lines this episode. "The hashtag is silent?" :lol:
I just want to point out the fact that you changed "pound sign" to "hashtag."
And Lord Marbury IS a dick, but if there's one thing I'll never tire of, be it on Cheers, on My So-Called Life, or in Robin Hood: Men in Tights, it is Roger Rees being a dick.
The revelation about the President's health is bit on the soapy side which is amusing as it cuts from that to Bartlet watching a soap opera.
Lucky
01-04-2013, 11:07 AM
I just want to point out the fact that you changed "pound sign" to "hashtag."
And I don't even have a Twitter.
The revelation about the President's health is bit on the soapy side which is amusing as it cuts from that to Bartlet watching a soap opera.
I also laughed at the line when, while watching soaps, he says something like, "This woman has changed her clothes a lot this afternoon."
Lucky
01-05-2013, 01:22 AM
Celestial Navigation (1.15)
"Based on all polls in the universe, the public's number one issue is education." My, how the times have changed. Hah.
I like how the episode was set up with Josh rehashing the events over time. This kind of felt like an episode network execs order to encourage new viewers to the series. It reminds of everyone's role and gives a general idea of what happens in this show.
ledfloyd
01-05-2013, 03:39 AM
I didn't find "Take This Sabbath Day" quite as haranguing as you did. The two scenes that were definitely preachy (the one with the Rabbi and the one with the Priest) conveniently featured preachers. What did you mean about it addressing it's saccharine nature though?
And yeah, "Celestial Navigation" is definitely attempting to grab new viewers. A good episode despite that, however.
Lucky
01-05-2013, 05:24 AM
I appreciated the fact that Bartlet chose politics over morality at the end. The show proved to me it doesn't always have to end with an "all-better" feeling.
You can tell that someone (viewers? producers?) complained that they couldn't keep the large ensemble straight, because there start to be a number of jokes about that, particularly on the "Previously On" segments, which eventually become everyone just saying their name. "I'm Josh. I'm Donna."
An interesting facet of this show is that a lot of relationships they tease (crushes, flirting) don't ever really happen. That's accurate for real life but unusual in television.
ledfloyd
01-07-2013, 02:07 AM
1.21 - the last ten minutes of this episode are gangbusters, the president going from meeting to meeting and the ultimate revelation as to the significance of the ambassadorship to the federation of micronesia. This despite the fact that the call girl won't go away, and that his reaction to Sam's indiscretion strains credulity.
ledfloyd
01-07-2013, 08:52 PM
That's one way to end a season.
I've been trying to figure out what sets this apart from other Sorkin shows that have failed to hold my attention (Sports Night, The Newsroom). I think in comparison to Sports Night, The West Wing feels more polished, and the White House is an appropriate milieu for the political arguments that felt haranguing in the context of a Sportscenter-like show. Why it works better than The Newsroom is harder to ken, but I think the characters and actors are more compelling. It has the same balance of behind-the-scenes nuts and bolts with "this is what it should be like" idealism, but it just feels more finely tuned on The West Wing. It comes much closer to matching the auteur both series seem to aspire to which is, of course, Frank Capra.
I also really like Jed Bartlett. His reliance on apocrypha and anecdotes seems to have inspired Spielberg's portrayal of Lincoln. Or perhaps Lincoln himself was an inspiration for Bartlett. The entire cast of characters is strong though Josh, Toby, Sam, and CJ all are capable of carrying episodes, and I really like Jack Spencer's voice, it reminds me of my grandpa.
In many ways, I feel like this is the apex of the standard pre-Sopranos TV drama. Sure, there was Twin Peaks, and Buffy, and even The X-Files to some extent, but those somehow felt like outsiders (I qualify the inclusion of The X-Files because it's clearly riffing on the procedural, though Buffy does that as well even though that's not Buffy's main appeal). But, in the way I feel Seinfeld both perfected and made obsolete the laugh-track sitcom, The West Wing perfects the form the average drama took from the 1970s-1990s.
Naturally this is all based on the first season, and all these pronouncements could blow up in my face when I start season two tonight.
I like Sports Night, with a special place in my heart reserved for the character of Danny. I also like the character of Danny on The West Wing. I also like the character of Danny on Studio 60.
I just like the name Danny, and apparently so does Sorkin.
number8
01-07-2013, 09:32 PM
Dan was rarely called Danny on SN, though.
Dan was rarely called Danny on SN, though.
He's called Danny in my heart.
ledfloyd
01-09-2013, 08:24 PM
It took me five episodes into season two to realize Mandy had been unceremoniously carted off between seasons.
"And It's Surely to Their Credit" is one of my favorite episodes to date. I'm really enjoying Ainsley. I like the way she serves as an argument from the other side against the type of misogynistic criticism usually lobbied at the conventionally attractive Fox News anchors. Also, subplots involving the President trying to get laid and the staff arguing over which Gilbert & Sullivan production a certain song is from? Yes, please.
It took me five episodes into season two to realize Mandy had been unceremoniously carted off between seasons.
Which shows how much of an impact she was making as a character. Good riddance. I found her grating.
Also, this is me being shallow: I really hated her hair.
I read an intriguing theory online that Mandy wasn't written off the show-- that she continued to work at the White House but simply stopped interacting with the specific story lines we're watching. I mean... it's a big place.
Season 2 is also the season where they weirdly, shamelessly borrow entire plots from Sports Night. It's like a weird alternate dimension synchronicity thing.
As a big Sports Night fan, the first time I watched Season 2, I kept having deja vu.
Lucky
01-10-2013, 10:59 AM
Six Meetings Before Lunch (1.18)
Rob Lowe has an embarrassing white boy dance moment during "The Jackal" that gave me the biggest laugh of the series so far.
Lucky
01-27-2013, 02:28 PM
I finished Season 1 awhile back, don't remember many details. I will say that the end credits music reached a new level of misplacement after the finale.
I also watched the 2 part opener of S2 bc I had to know who was shot. Perhaps I will watch more today.
slqrick
01-27-2013, 02:38 PM
Just started watching this on Netflix as well. A lot of "oh so that's what this person was doing before _____"
lol Ron Swanson in the 3rd ep.
Winston*
01-28-2013, 01:45 AM
lol Ron Swanson in the 3rd ep.
You see him full frontal in an episode of Deadwood.
number8
01-28-2013, 02:39 AM
You see him full frontal in an episode of Deadwood.
The second one, as a matter of fact. Got you beat by one, West Wing!
ledfloyd
02-06-2013, 07:06 PM
Mrs. Landingham!? WTF Sorkin! Who is going to give them cookies!? WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET COOKIES!?!
number8
02-06-2013, 08:21 PM
Season 2 finale remains the show's finest hour. It's unbeatable.
amberlita
02-07-2013, 01:50 AM
I blew through Season 1 and 2 on rewatch. Then I hit Season 3 and stalled remembering that this is where things start to fall apart. Haven't watched it in weeks. This is the first time I've watched the show since seeing Studio 60 and The Newsroom. If I'd only known then that Season 3 was a shade of things to come with regard to Sorkin's weaknesses. He's really much better at film scripts.
ledfloyd
02-07-2013, 01:07 PM
Two Cathedrals was unbelievably good. I'm kind of disappointed to hear it's possibly all downhill from here.
Two Cathedrals was unbelievably good. I'm kind of disappointed to hear it's possibly all downhill from here.
I'm not sure I'd say that. As Amber pointed out, there start to be fault lines in the next couple of years, but the show as a whole remains really strong, and some of my favorite stuff is in seasons 3 & 4.
Season 5 is when Sorkin left and things get a little... not great. HOWEVER, I have the unpopular opinion that seasons 6 & 7 have a storyline as great as anything else the show did.
Specifically, the election storyline. Everything inside the White House sort of falls apart, and poor President Bartlet, CJ, and Toby have nothing to do, but dammit, every time we focus on Josh and Santos, I get so happy. It's almost like a spin-off show that I really like.
number8
02-07-2013, 02:58 PM
They got a damn good replacement with Santos (or as I call him, Beta Testing Obama). I think it's fair to say, though, that it was in no way the same show anymore.
Irish
02-09-2013, 05:37 AM
I'm not sure I'd say that. As Amber pointed out, there start to be fault lines in the next couple of years, but the show as a whole remains really strong, and some of my favorite stuff is in seasons 3 & 4.
Season 5 is when Sorkin left and things get a little... not great. HOWEVER, I have the unpopular opinion that seasons 6 & 7 have a storyline as great as anything else the show did.
Specifically, the election storyline. Everything inside the White House sort of falls apart, and poor President Bartlet, CJ, and Toby have nothing to do, but dammit, every time we focus on Josh and Santos, I get so happy. It's almost like a spin-off show that I really like.
Sorkin left after the fourth season. You can kinda sorta tell when everything starts going off the rails, about the time that Rob Lowe left.
I kinda sorta agree with you about the later seasons, but the tone and energy of the show was radically different than what Sorkin had done. It became less about the White House and more "The Josh & Donna Show."
For my money, the best episode in the entire run was "Noel," the one where Josh cuts his hand by, he says, slamming a glass down on a table.
If you binge-watch "The West Wing," it becomes apparent that Sorkin relied heavily on the same structures and motifs over and over and over again -- lotsa flashbacks, lotsa drama-on-the-clock, and lotsa contrasts between lighthearted storylines (turkeys in CJ's office!) and heavier ones (US Navy personnel trapped on North Korean beaches!) within the same episode. He does this to goose the drama a bit, between all the walking and talking.
"Noel" combines every single one of those motifs into a single episode and does them all well, better than any episode that came before or after it.
Thirdmango
02-13-2013, 07:53 AM
While I agree the show is at it's best during the first couple seasons, I really like the last season, especially the live episode.
ledfloyd
03-05-2013, 04:53 AM
My viewing has been a lot more sporadic since I've been back in school, but it's almost better as whenever I find the time to watch an episode I fall in love with it all over again. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that.
MadMan
12-02-2013, 07:10 AM
I started watching tonight. I'm on the third episode and I am hooked. Great cast incredibly well written and Martin Sheen rules. I'm willing to overlook its strong liberal bias. Oh and Season 1 has the president dealing with Syria and the right wing Christian fundie wing early on. This show came out in the early 2000s? Really topical-I was surprised that its not dated.
I love it. Upon rewatches I find little Sorkin-isms that kind of make me crazy, but overall I think it one of the best shows ever.
MadMan
12-14-2013, 04:53 AM
Bartlett and his wife's fight in the Oval Office was hilarious and touching. I'm on the 18th episode I think.
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