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EvilShoe
10-27-2012, 09:05 AM
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5817/skyintlquadonli5d0c002s.jpg

EvilShoe
10-27-2012, 09:14 AM
Haven't enjoyed a mainstream action film this much since The Dark Knight. This actually owes a fair deal to the Batman-franchise (some intentionally, some unintentionally), and while it doesn't reach TDK's heights, it doesn't reach its lows either. Pretty much takes the best elements of the Craig era and the best of the previous eras (madman with an elaborate plan, Q, throwbacks to previous events, etc...).

Bardem's a good villain, but the movie belongs to Craig and Dench. Although the days of Vesper Lynd are behind us, this continues to raise the question "what makes Bond tick?". There's more of MI6 and its team in this, which removes Bond from the bubble in which he used to exist, and present him as just another weapon in their armoury. He just so happens to be the best. Even if he doesn't mind collateral damage.

It's a 4/5 movie, but I'm giving it the extra star because of how gorgeous it looks. Impressive.

Morris Schæffer
10-27-2012, 09:37 AM
Good news Shoe. Didn't read all of it, but I'll be seeing this next week.

Henry Gale
10-27-2012, 11:59 AM
I was kinda shocked to learn this was shot on the Arri Alexa (with an open matte in mind for some sequences to open to full height in IMAX). I mean obviously Deakins is incredible and Mendes always seems to know what he's doing visually, but more than any other current digital camera, my eyes don't even consider that the images from the Alexa aren't actually film when its used as extremely well as it seems to be here.

Same with Drive, Argo, or even something considerably simpler like The Five-Year Engagement.

transmogrifier
10-27-2012, 02:58 PM
68/100

Pretty good, on par with the other two Craig entries, but apart from the relatively refreshing third act premise (for this series), it is a creaky narrative, relying too much on hoary cliches to get to the good stuff. Bardem gives a great, showy performance, but it takes far too long for him to show up, and by that time the movie has almost stalled as it slowly recovers from the kinetic (and mostly preposterous, but you won't care at the time) opening action scene.

I love that the film basically ends up as a siege film, though it totally wastes Bardem in doing so. And the death of M was predictable if only because Fiennes would have been a complete waste of time without it. And since I'm in the spoilers box, I'll just say that I'm getting pretty sick of the "he wanted to get caught all along" plot surprise, especially as it makes absolutely no sense here, because all it does is allow Bardem to....dress as a cop and barge into a parliamentary hearing with guns, something he could have probably done without the whole getting caught bit.

It's not a good sign that all the silly stuff is flooding back, but I will say that it does look great, especially the last third. And some genuine emotion does poke through now and then. Still, I was with it mostly from start to finish and it is an easy sit.

Morris Schæffer
10-28-2012, 06:17 PM
Perhaps surprisingly, Bond 24 and 25 will be a two parter.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/hugo-scribe-john-logan-james-bond-383477

angrycinephile
10-29-2012, 04:20 PM
SKYFALL and THE AVENGERS are the perfect antidotes to Nolanization of our fun movies.

I find this comment strange.

Not that the film is outrageously bleak or anything - but, certainly, it takes itself a little more seriously than The Avengers did. Third act, in particular, is very somber.

But I guess the easy answer is just "It's Devin Faraci..."

He probably thought everything Bardem said and did was hysterical.

megladon8
10-29-2012, 04:27 PM
"The Nolanization of our fun movies"

What does that even mean? How many fun movies have been "Nolanized"? And how are Nolan's movies not fun themselves?

angrycinephile
10-29-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't really know either.

There's this misconception that - after The Dark Knight - every big blockbuster (especially of the comic book variety) turned dark and serious, which is horseshit.

I still haven't seen a single comic book movie where I've felt TDK was a key influence. Well, except TDKR of course. Maybe Watchmen, but that one doesn't count.

Besides, it's not like Nolan popularized the dark and serious tentpole release. The Lord of the Rings, anyone?

megladon8
10-29-2012, 09:37 PM
Yeah, I don't get it either. I actually saw someone on another forum using the Bourne franchise as an example of this whole "Nolanization of modern action films". Yet the first two films in the franchise came out before any of Nolan's action films.

Hate to resort to this kind of "label" (because it automatically makes it seem like I'm an up-in-arms fanboy), but it really seems more like anti-Nolan trolling.

Morris Schæffer
10-29-2012, 10:40 PM
This movie suffers, albeit not terribly, from a fairly urgency-deficient middle portion, a potentially interesting plot that turns out to be a glorified revenge fantasy and a finale that, thanks to its location, aims to resonate (and certainly succeeds a little), but that ultimately comes across as half-assed, possibly even misguided. Agreed with Trans that the villain arrives far too late in the game, and again, his motives were clear, but tiresome. The action is certainly great, especially a terrifying scene involving a train and yes, it's a handsome production. Best Bond movie ever? Um, lol.

Dukefrukem
10-30-2012, 12:43 PM
How is Faraci's comments absurd? He's basically saying we are seeing more instances of screenplays that shy away from the camp we are used to in our action movies. MOre recently, look at all of the Brosnan Bonds.

Goldeneye - 350 mil (Xenia Onatopp, which is a villain I actually love)
Tomorrow Never Dies - 300 mil (stealth boat)
The World Is Not Enough = 360 mil (the fucking pipe car)
Die Another Day - 400 mil (there's a scene where Bond is surfing on ice)

The villains are action scenes are all goofy parodies of what a bad guy should be. Yes the Bond franchise has always been like this, but look what happens when they Nolanize the screenplays . They see this huge jump in revenue and say, "whoa, maybe this is what the public really wants"? Darker toned, less absurdity, strong action set-pieces.

Casino Royale - 600 MIL!
Quantum of Solace - 600 MIL!

EvilShoe
10-30-2012, 12:52 PM
He's saying this and The Avengers are the ANTIDOTE to those movies. His comments are absurd, because Skyfall feels like an heir to Nolan's Batman-era.

I personally think it's one of the five Bond-films. By not introducing Bardem too soon, he never overstays his welcome.

The bit on the island is one of my favorite Bond moments: Bond at his most playful, and also his coldest.

Morris Schæffer
10-30-2012, 01:16 PM
By not introducing Bardem too soon, he never overstays his welcome.

Shoe, isn't this an indirect admission that Bardem's Silva wasn't all that? No one ever said Hans Gruber or The Terminator overstayed their welcome. ;)

Another thing is that Skyfall has a complete lack of memorable henchmen. All of the baddies who aren't Bardem are similar looking soldiers, existing solely to be mowed down by MI6's finest.

Look at Casino Royale, besides Le Chiffre, you had Molakka, Alex Dimitrios, Bomber Carlos and Mr. White. All put up a memorable fight, all had kickass scenes and I could tell you what they looked like from memory. Skyfall has one dude, Noomi Rapace's ex husband. The rest all look the same.

EvilShoe
10-30-2012, 01:30 PM
Shoe, isn't this an indirect admission that Bardem's Silva wasn't all that? No one ever said Hans Gruber or The Terminator overstayed their welcome. ;)
Not really, the focus in this is on Bond and M. Silva feels like a throwback to the old Bond era, mixed in with a bit of The Joker. I feel he's used efficiently. Too much of him could've lessened his character and made him too silly. Besides: the threat he poses is felt throughout the entire movie.


Another thing is that Skyfall has a complete lack of memorable henchmen. All of the baddies who aren't Bardem are similar looking soldiers, existing solely to be mowed down by MI6's finest.

Look at Casino Royale, besides Le Chiffre, you had Molakka, Alex Dimitrios, Bomber Carlos and Mr. White. All put up a memorable fight, all had kickass scenes and I could tell you what they looked like from memory. Skyfall has one dude, Noomi Rapace's ex husband. The rest all look the same.
I thought it was refreshing - after the first two Craig movies - to see the franchise invest in its supporting characters on the good side (MI6). It's true we didn't learn much about the henchmen, but then again: didn't seem like they were anything but disposable to Silva either.

Morris Schæffer
10-30-2012, 02:59 PM
I guess sometimes you have to make choices. I didn't think Tanner, Mallory and Eve were all that memorable. Although there's more Dench, evidently a good thing in this movie.

EvilShoe
10-30-2012, 03:32 PM
It's more about laying the groundwork, I think. If these characters weren't to appear in any of the either movies, I'd call the time spent on them wasted.

Instead we have learned more about the new M, Moneypenny and to a lesser degree Q than we did when they were around in the pre-Craig movies.

With all the key players in place, we can look forward to seeing Bond interact with an ensemble again, instead of just M.

If they bungle it in 3 years, you can retroactively mock me though.

EvilShoe
10-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Line of the movie:
That's a waste of good Scotch.

Morris Schæffer
10-31-2012, 06:55 AM
Yeah, they needed to introduce those players I agree. And they by no means did a bad job. in fact, I love the introductory scene with Q. As for the line, I thought you were gonna go with "Welcome to Scotland."

StanleyK
11-02-2012, 09:29 PM
I get that they're trying to make Bond a more human and relatable character, which is cool, but is the best way really to give him a backstory with dead parents, huge mansion and amiable old butler, all Batman-like? Also didn't care for the ludicrous over-the-top villain (who the movie uses to crack a couple of uncomfortable homophobic jokes), or his grudge against M, because seriously, does anybody care at all about M?

As an action movie it was pretty all right, though. Not only is the shaky-cam and hyperactive editing thankfully gone, but the action rose above being functional (that is, visible) to actually being exciting and memorably composed at times (really liked the one-shot fight between Bond and the guy in the hotel), even if it's definitely too long. Overall a mediocre movie, which makes it one of the best Bond movies.

Best part was Bond stone cold dropkicking that fucking dude right in the face.

Morris Schæffer
11-02-2012, 09:50 PM
Well, Bond was always an orphan I think, but I didn't even notice the mansion and the butler as having a similarity to Batman. Now that you mention them, well, fuck.

EvilShoe
11-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Well, Bond was always an orphan I think, but I didn't even notice the mansion and the butler as having a similarity to Batman. Now that you mention them, well, fuck.
First thing that came to mind when Finney appeared.

I wish Bond was Batman though, Bale's Bruce Wayne was too distant for my likings.

[ETM]
11-06-2012, 09:53 PM
I never thought "Batman". I thought "Lara Croft".

Loved the movie, though. A very refreshing and entertaining franchise entry and a welcome shift after the rather lacking second Craig film. Surprisingly humorous for such a grim premise. Definitely gorgeous to look at and never dull. I also thought the choice of Thomas Newman for the score was intriguing but ultimately successful, as it was one of my favorite parts of the film.

[ETM]
11-06-2012, 10:10 PM
Oh, and - my girlfriend and I burst out laughing at the same time when Silva's henchman, the bald captain of the boat, appeared. My gf's sister is an actress, and the guy is one of her closest friends and colleagues, Milorad Kapor. I met him at her wedding. :D I giggled all through the island scenes, because he's such a goof ball, I just couldn't take him seriously.

number8
11-07-2012, 05:30 PM
Re: Faraci's comment.

He wasn't just referring to the dark tone and lack of humor. He's talking about how certain genres/franchises strayed from their distinctive characteristics to match what they think audiences want to see. Instead of getting cynical audiences to like goofy movies, they make goofy movies more palatable to cynical audiences instead.

The key line in The Avengers was the exchange between Coulson and Cap:

"Stars and stripes? Isn't that a little old fashioned?"
"With everything that's going on right now? Maybe we need a little old fashion."

That movie was an example of unabashed return to what makes superhero movies superhero movies rather than costumed action thrillers. Big feats, colorful style, unabashed morality and heroism, more so than the Iron Man movies that started it. It was markedly different from the change in style you see in the Spider-Man, Harry Potter, Terminator, Star Trek, etc franchises, which went the other way.

There's a clinical, grounded approach that Nolan's Batman movies popularized, which you can certainly see in post-Batman Begins tentpoles. One of them being Casino Royale, which I remember the producers specifically citing Batman Begins as an influence/goal when they announced it. No more gadgets, no Q, no slapstick jokes, no eccentric over-the-top villains.

Skyfall put those back in, so I think it's fair to say that it's an antidote to the last two Bond movies or the Bourne movies, just like The Avengers was an antidote to The Amazing Spider-Man.

Morris Schæffer
11-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Skyfall put those back in, so I think it's fair to say that it's an antidote to the last two Bond movies or the Bourne movies, just like The Avengers was an antidote to The Amazing Spider-Man.

Doesn't an antidote usually come after the poison?

Grouchy
11-08-2012, 12:15 AM
This was everything I wanted and expected it to be, considering the director and cinematographer.

That being said, the obvious attempt to ground and modernize Bond sometimes goes a little bit too far. "What makes you think this is my first time?" Really? Bisexual Bond? Not that it bothers, me, just, really? Or the dialogue with Q.

But really, it's all nit-picking on my part. Just an awesome, epic, wildly entertaining Bond film. Definitively Craig's best.

number8
11-08-2012, 12:27 AM
Daniel Craig's been wanting to play a bi Bond for years. He talked about trying to convince the producers to include a gay sex scene in Casino Royale, and then again in Quantum of Solace. I guess they finally threw him a bone with that exchange.

Grouchy
11-08-2012, 12:31 AM
I bet once he's done with the Bond franchise someone's going to take him up on the idea and go somewhere awkward with it.

[ETM]
11-08-2012, 01:42 PM
I didn't see it as a "Bond is bi" moment.
More like "Bitch please, I'm a 00 agent."
I'm certain someone like him would take one for Queen and country, if it was necessary.

Sven
11-09-2012, 06:26 AM
The credit sequence, Bardem's performance, and the Shanghai assassination sequence are standouts. Nearly everything else was such a blend of thoughtlessness and cliches that the positive reaction is a little confusing. Dug the twist, though.

transmogrifier
11-09-2012, 06:29 AM
I assume you are kidding, because there is no twist.

Morris Schæffer
11-09-2012, 10:56 AM
I assume you are kidding, because there is no twist.

Wasn't Q very young this time?

transmogrifier
11-09-2012, 11:10 AM
Wasn't Q very young this time?

?

Mr. McGibblets
11-09-2012, 12:20 PM
Maybe the fact that M gave Silver up counts as a twist?

The other thing was ridiculous. I'm going to imagine that the breakout plan was jut a backup because if he got himself captured on purpose on the strength of that plan - what happens if Q tries to decrypt the computer offline? what happens if there are armed guards nearby? what happens if he's in an iron cell instead? - then he's about the dumbest criminal mastermind in the world.

Sven
11-09-2012, 01:04 PM
Line of the movie:
That's a waste of good Scotch.

His reaction to the murder of a sex slave (whom he didn't think twice about boning himself in the scene directly previous). Psychopathic.

EvilShoe
11-09-2012, 04:25 PM
His reaction to the murder of a sex slave (whom he didn't think twice about boning himself in the scene directly previous). Psychopathic.
I may be wrong, but isn't this the first time in the franchise Bond has explicitly stated not to care at all about endangering other people's lives?

Watashi
11-09-2012, 04:37 PM
I assume you are kidding, because there is no twist.

Well...I guess you can call the film being a prequel to the whole series by introducing a new Moneypenny, M, and Q kind of a twist. It's basically what Star Trek did. I wonder if they will remake any of the older Bonds (Dr. No).

Anyway, this movie was fun. It was fucking gorgeous. I mean, Roger Deakins. Goddamn. A lot of The Dark Knight influences (and there is a lot) bothered me, but it never took me out of the film. Probably my favorite Bond film.

transmogrifier
11-10-2012, 01:14 AM
Eh, I just assumed they were all code names with people rotating in and out of the role. Nothing really exciting about that. In fact, the idea of it being a prequel to anything else is just....silly, I think.

transmogrifier
11-10-2012, 01:15 AM
His reaction to the murder of a sex slave (whom he didn't think twice about boning himself in the scene directly previous). Psychopathic.

I agree with you here. The scene sat wrong for me.

Ezee E
11-10-2012, 03:29 PM
Absolutely dug the heck out of this. I'll have to let it resonate some more, but pretty sure it'll be my favorite Bond. There's a variety of action sequences that are a little more stripped down from previous Bond movies, but nonetheless, far more suspenseful to watch. Cinematography easily beats any Bond movie, and is probably the most striking of the year. The Shanghai sequence is simply jawdropping to watch, something that hasn't happened in a while.

And Javier Bardem plays a fantastic villain. I wish he was able to speak more, as he really only has 2-3 scenes of speaking. Each of those scenes, he's basically doing a monologue, and absolutely killing it. A penultimate Bond villain.

It is a little long, but I suspect I felt that way because I was in a sold out, hot theater. Lordie, it's been a while since I went to an opening movie at night. Bad move there.

Sven
11-10-2012, 03:37 PM
Octopussy > Skyfall

Ezee E
11-10-2012, 03:46 PM
Octopussy > Skyfall
That's what my gf said. :lol: Disagree!

BTW, she thought this was dumb.

Sven
11-10-2012, 04:20 PM
BTW, she thought this was dumb.

She's a good woman.

Grouchy
11-10-2012, 05:07 PM
Octopussy > Skyfall
Hahah right. In your fucking dreams.

As for the scotch line... It's very in-character. It got a chuckle out of me.

Sven
11-10-2012, 05:25 PM
Hahah right. In your fucking dreams.

With diligence, we will reach a point where we, as a people, will reserve praise-heaping for only deserving films. This fantasy, along with sweet, sweet dreams of Octopussy, does help get me through the night.


As for the scotch line... It's very in-character. It got a chuckle out of me.

...because you, like Bond, are a sick person. :lol:

Derek
11-10-2012, 06:42 PM
With diligence, we will reach a point where we, as a people, will reserve praise-heaping for only deserving films.

Says the guy who calls The Ladykillers and Crank films the best of last decade. ;)

angrycinephile
11-10-2012, 07:32 PM
The scotch line is so clearly Bond trying not to show his weak side in front of an adversary. He doesn't want to appear hurt or shocked.

Same thing when he says "The bitch is dead" at the end of Casino Royale.

Sven
11-10-2012, 07:51 PM
I'd buy that argument if there was any indication that Bond actually had felt something for this woman. But all he does is recognize that she's been a sex slave her whole life and uses his cool to bed her. Then she dies and he bemoans the alcohol. There is no nuance.

Accepting that some lives are intrinsically more valuable than others is a cornerstone of the Bond franchise, but this film takes it to a sour extreme while still attempting to paint Bond as someone to admire. Mendes amplifies that pathology by refusing to temper scenes of undoubted collateral damage with any sort of consideration. Massive Tube explosion/derailment? Just an inconvenience, really.

Anyone knows me knows that I love a good action film, so it's not that I can't accept premises necessitating willy-nilly deaths, but there are degrees, and sometimes egregious disruptions. This movie doesn't care about anything, so thoughtless is its trajectory (the plot as well is utterly nonsensical), and that apathy I cannot abide.

Also, Mendes's action is tacky, and Deakins's photography, while pulling out a couple of good shots, is pale compared to the thick, rich atmosphere of Meheux's in Casino Royale. But this is a whole 'nother can of worms.

For verisimilitude, I will reiterate my admiration for the credits and Bardem and the cool reflection/jellyfish fight.

number8
11-11-2012, 12:05 AM
Those are my favorite parts too, Sven. I really think the first half of the film is a near-perfect Bond movie. While it would've pissed people off surely, if it had ended with Silva's capture, I'd call it the best Bond on the spot. As it is, I'd settle for "good enough to not be disappointing."

number8
11-11-2012, 12:20 AM
At least it's the most gorgeous Bond movie, though. Just thinking of the Macau casino sequence is making me eyesjaculate.

Ezee E
11-11-2012, 12:30 AM
At least it's the most gorgeous Bond movie, though. Just thinking of the Macau casino sequence is making me eyesjaculate.
You say Macau, I say Shanghai.

Although some of Shanghai reminds me of Blade Runner.

dreamdead
11-11-2012, 01:23 AM
I agree with Sven. And Sarah mentioned to me that it's incredibly scuzzy of Bond to bed the sex slave woman, who clearly would have been sexually abused as a child. It's an element of Bond's dickishness that I'm doubtful is altogether intended.

Narratively, I think number8's on the money about if the film had ended after Silva's captured. Excellent pacing up to then. The actual finale feels too dragged out, even if Deakins gets some nice shots of Scotland and the raging fires.

number8
11-11-2012, 01:44 AM
We can argue whether or not it's intended (I would say it is) but guys, this is not new to Bond. Pussy Galore, anyone? We're talking about a guy who is a serial rapist.

eternity
11-11-2012, 04:12 AM
Goddamn. A lot of The Dark Knight influences (and there is a lot) bothered me, but it never took me out of the film.
Is everybody trying to make this the first Bond movie I never watch?

transmogrifier
11-11-2012, 04:23 AM
It's better than any of the Nolan Batman films, though I'm hardly in the bag for those at all.

number8
11-11-2012, 04:29 AM
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/sam-mendes-says-he-was-not-at-all-interested-in-bond-at-first-took-direct-inspiration-from-christopher-nolans-dark-knight-films-20121018?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


Just as "Casino Royale" reinvigorated the Bond series, Christopher Nolan did the same with his 'Dark Knight' series and when asked, Mendes says he was "directly inspired" by what those films achieved.

"In terms of what [Nolan] achieved, specifically ‘The Dark Knight,’ the second movie, what it achieved, which is something exceptional. It was a game changer for everybody," he explained about how it influenced his approach.

"We’re now in an industry where movies are very small or very big and there’s almost nothing in the middle," he continued. "And it would be a tragedy if all the serious movies were very small and all the popcorn movies were very big and have nothing to say. And what Nolan proved was that you can make a huge movie that is thrilling and entertaining and has a lot to say about the world we live in, even if, in the case with ‘The Dark Knight,’ it’s not even set in our world. If felt like a movie that was about our world post-9/11 and played on our fears and discussed our fears and why they existed and I thought that was incredibly brave and interesting. That did help give me the confidence to take this movie in directions that, without ‘The Dark Knight,’ might not have been possible. Because also, people go, ‘Wow, that’s pretty dark,’ but then you can point to ‘Dark Knight’ and go ‘Look at that – that’s a darker movie, and it took in a gazillion dollars!’ That’s very helpful. There’s also that thing – it’s clearly possible to make a dark movie that people want to see."

transmogrifier
11-11-2012, 04:59 AM
One of the big problems for the Dark Knight trilogy was that it had a lot to say and just wouldn't shut up about it.

And I don't find the movies all that dark. Mainly because it always seemed to me to be a conceit, a self-conscious "This is not your father's Batman!" type of miserablism, rather than something organically arising from whatever story or environment they have created.

Lucky
11-11-2012, 05:03 AM
Was the Shanghai shootout supposed to be a modern nod to the climax of The Lady from Shanghai?

Agree on the cinematography being top notch, but I'd take Casino Royale over this. Wish the sex slave had a larger role, actress has some serious charisma.

Morris Schæffer
11-11-2012, 10:17 AM
Around 80 million opening in the US. Biggest evah for a Bond flick.

Sven
11-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Was the Shanghai shootout supposed to be a modern nod to the climax of The Lady from Shanghai?

Wouldn't think so, as there was only a shot or two of reflective confusion, and nothing really about the subject that correlates. Maybe there was a cute wink, but hardly enough to call homage.

Lucky
11-11-2012, 01:45 PM
The comparison occurred to me during the opening credits first. Then, when Bond went to Shanghai I thought it might have been intentional. You're right in that it would be slight if anything.

megladon8
11-11-2012, 02:55 PM
Is the sex slave played by that Berenice Marlohe?

She's incredibly beautiful. A very unique look.

number8
11-11-2012, 08:42 PM
I thought of another reason why the second half was such a drop off. It's all government buildings and underground tunnels and a drab mansion. I wanted to see Deakins shoot more exotic locale porn. I don't give a fuck nothing happens. Daniel Craig in a tux standing in front of various foreign countries would have been fine.

Ezee E
11-11-2012, 09:01 PM
Craig in Scotland wasn't cool enough?

Mr. McGibblets
11-11-2012, 09:04 PM
I really liked the ending once the chase through the subway scene was over. It was only that ten-fifteen minutes that were badly paced and uninteresting.

Watashi
11-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Craig in Scotland wasn't cool enough?
Seriously. Some of those Scotland shots were phenomenal.

http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/05/Skyfall10.jpg

number8
11-11-2012, 09:09 PM
He was wearing, what, jeans and a cardigan. NO.

Sven
11-12-2012, 12:16 AM
http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/05/Skyfall10.jpg

Looks to me like a photo anybody could've taken. Misty wetlands photograph themselves.

Best shot from the last act was the underwater flare highlighting the hole in the ice. That was crazy.

Watashi
11-12-2012, 12:30 AM
Looks to me like a photo anybody could've taken. Misty wetlands photograph themselves.

Best shot from the last act was the underwater flare highlighting the hole in the ice. That was crazy.
8 wanted a picture of Bond standing in front of foreign countries. That's what I gave him.

And no, anybody could not have taken that shot.

Sven
11-12-2012, 12:55 AM
And no, anybody could not have taken that shot.

Well, neither of us are photography experts, so I will not belabor the point. It's a fine still. But there's hardly anything happening with it.

number8
11-12-2012, 02:17 AM
Looks to me like a photo anybody could've taken. Misty wetlands photograph themselves.

Best shot from the last act was the underwater flare highlighting the hole in the ice. That was crazy.

Agreed. That was sublime.

number8
11-12-2012, 04:04 PM
Heh. Mendes confirmed the obvious. Kincaid was written for Sean Connery to play, but Mendes decided it would be too distracting and quickly scrapped the idea. It was still distracting, though, I spent the whole time wondering the reason why they wrote such an obvious Connery cameo but it was played by Finney.

Morris Schæffer
11-12-2012, 04:34 PM
Around 80 million opening in the US. Biggest evah for a Bond flick.

More like 90 million! Already 518 worldwide! With china, japan and antarctica yet to open.

Grouchy
11-12-2012, 06:32 PM
Ah, that makes a ton of sense. Would've been beautiful.

Isn't Sean Connery retired, though? Did they even got around to ask him?

number8
11-12-2012, 06:38 PM
Ah, that makes a ton of sense. Would've been beautiful.

Isn't Sean Connery retired, though? Did they even got around to ask him?

They didn't. Mendes thought about it for a second and decided it was a bad idea.


"So, it was a very brief flirtation with that thought, but it was never going to happen, because I thought it would distract."

Henry Gale
11-15-2012, 12:37 AM
The more I think about this, the more I like it, which usually doesn't happen with big actioners like this once the glow of their adrenaline rushes fade.

I still think I like Casino Royale best, but each of the three or four times I've watched that, I've adored it a little more. So if Skyfall has a similar effect with me, then it could easily surpass it.

It's just so unexpected and satisfying to see a Bond movie that's really about something while equally being an incredible standalone piece as well as a perfect asset and reflection of everything that's come before it. Maybe that's why so many people are calling it their favourite ever, since it's almost the quintessential, most self-contained dose of the character's excellence. When the "50 Years of Bond" logo comes up at the end, it feels just right for this to be the film that commemorates that milestone.

But for one nitpick... With Bond, Naomie Harris' character, plotting this strong, a setting like Macau, and a villain like Bardem revealed five minutes later, did they really need a pit of CG Komodo Dragons to move that section of the film along?

number8
11-15-2012, 04:19 PM
The gorgeous title sequence is online if you want to see it again.

http://vimeo.com/53442121

Doesn't have the texts though.

Wryan
11-19-2012, 02:15 AM
This was fun and even a little...slow-burn, for a Bond? It felt languorous. Bardem was great. I liked Deakins's work. I still prefer Casino Royale so far. Some of the wink-wink, nudge-nudge jokes (Moneypenny, etc.) were a little frail, with the exception of the car. As soon as that light came on, my entire audience buzzed with energy. It felt joyous. The score was playful in that way as well. And the deadliest Home Alone ever in the climax was surprising and effective.

EDIT: And yeah the title sequence was terrific.

MadMan
11-19-2012, 06:49 AM
I loved it, and I think it is better than Casino Royale. The best Bond film is still From Russia With Love, though. I think its weird how Skyfall was more of a reboot than Casino Royale, though.

And yes Deakins work was beyond fantastic, as usual. Give that man a fucking Oscar already. New Q was the other best thing about this movie, too.

Wryan
11-19-2012, 03:13 PM
The long walk at Silva's introduction was great, too. Can't imagine how many takes it took to end so perfectly on "rats."

Honestly, though, as great as Bardem was, did anyone else get a hint of this?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wbI4pq_UaVg/TymNLRu6kGI/AAAAAAAAAyc/2JAv1VfTePI/s1600/stuart-smalley.jpg

number8
11-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Not really. The character is based on Julian Assange, so that's all I saw.

http://theinsanityreport.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/JulianAssange.jpg

Grouchy
11-19-2012, 03:52 PM
I consciously enjoy James Bond (and other) films despite their shitty politics, just for their entertainment value, but it's really kind of depressing that Julian Assange's first cinematic "depiction" is as the inspiration for a villain.

Wryan
11-19-2012, 05:08 PM
I was going more for looks, mannerisms, and affectations, really. Never once crossed my mind about Assange. If Silva is really meant to be based on Assange, that's just about the loosest inspiration I've ever seen. In the bits of Assange I've watched, he comes across as the dourest, most serious motherfucker on the planet.

number8
11-19-2012, 05:12 PM
Well, he is supposed to be based on Assange, given the whole "super-hacker leaking classified information" angle of the villain (and to a crasser extent, the rape threat attempt), so they gave Bardem Assange's hair as an "homage," but no, I don't think Bardem actually based his performance on him at all. It's not a biopic, after all.

Wryan
11-19-2012, 05:17 PM
True enough, but that just fell under your basic cyberterrorist type to me. After all, it's Mission: Impossible's plot, essentially, tho without the "going public" angle.

Also, I posted that pic because it was funny to me.

Fezzik
11-19-2012, 07:56 PM
I'll let you guys know what I think of this as soon as, you know, I get to see the whole thing.

Was watching it yesterday and about half-way through, a transformer blew nearby and took out electricity to the mall and surrounding neighborhoods.

I have my re-admit pass in hand.

Personally, I think its a SPECTRE conspiracy.

megladon8
11-21-2012, 01:56 AM
Perhaps my knowledge of deadly poisons is not up to snuff, but since when does cyanide melt your insides?

This was really good. A few utterly pointless scenes (that shaving scene stopped the movie dead in its tracks), but luckily there's enough greatness here to make it one of the best in the series.

Strikingly beautiful and I appreciated the clear-cut action scenes. That one-take fight in silhouette with Bond and the dude in the tall building in Shanghai was striking.

Loved the shot of the flare underwater. Incredible stuff.

Bardem was wonderfully creepy and uncomfortable.

And holy shit at Marlohe. Did anyone else think she kind of stole the movie? That scene with her and Bond at the bar, the utter fear in her face. It was incredible.

transmogrifier
11-21-2012, 01:03 PM
And holy shit at Marlohe. Did anyone else think she kind of stole the movie? That scene with her and Bond at the bar, the utter fear in her face. It was incredible.

Pity she was pretty much ended up just being a punchline.

Henry Gale
11-21-2012, 04:17 PM
I thought of another reason why the second half was such a drop off. It's all government buildings and underground tunnels and a drab mansion. I wanted to see Deakins shoot more exotic locale porn. I don't give a fuck nothing happens. Daniel Craig in a tux standing in front of various foreign countries would have been fine.

I feel like this was completely intentional, though.

In the first section of the movie, things seem to be going business as usual for Bond: Navigating through lavish, exotic locations, soaked in rich colours with surrounding high-tech flourishes here and there (with Deakins and Mendes making that sort of thing look better than ever). Then once it starts going to shit for him and M, the world of the film instantly begins to dry up and desaturate all the way to the end.

I still thought it still looked fantastic, just a tad grayer in that latter half. But I do agree that if we did get a Bond movie that looked entirely like the Shanghai and Macau sequences, it could be worse than Quantum and I'd still be happy with it for aesthetic reasons alone.

megladon8
11-21-2012, 04:41 PM
Pity she was pretty much ended up just being a punchline.


I'm finding these readings of that line of dialogue a little ridiculous.

transmogrifier
11-21-2012, 10:16 PM
I'm finding these readings of that line of dialogue a little ridiculous.

And I found the line of dialogue a little ridiculous, so I guess it all evens out.

Skitch
11-21-2012, 10:44 PM
Wow. Its been a while since I lost myself in a film in theater. I saw a lot of comparisons to Goldeneye, and that's a good thing. They sure covered a lot of curious plotholes with "hacking" though.

How did he do....hacking.
But how could he....hacking.
But that wasn't even possib....he hacked it.

What I want to know is...who installed the massive pneumatic doors that can turn transparant in a bunker that "hasn't been used since Churchill"?

SirNewt
11-23-2012, 06:06 AM
Just saw this. Didn't dig the story.

I always hate it when the bad guy had it all planned from the beginning.

And the movie veered between serious and goofy in a way I haven't seen in a Bond flick since Roger Moore.

Some great scenes though. Especially the lead up to the skyscraper fight scene.

megladon8
11-23-2012, 11:43 AM
I didn't really see any "goofy" in this movie, unless we're just talking about the komodo dragons.

SirNewt
11-23-2012, 05:34 PM
I got the impression that Bardem's character was supposed to be a bit of comic relief. I chuckled at him a few times and he elicited an outright laugh more than once from the theatre I was in.

MadMan
11-23-2012, 05:53 PM
I didn't really see any "goofy" in this movie, unless we're just talking about the komodo dragons.I loved the komando dragons scene, but maybe its because they're my favorite animal and I smiled when Bond fell into the pit full of them.

Anyways yesterday while puking my guts out I viewed The World's Not Enough, and I realized how much it has in common with Skyfall. Bond gets seriously injured, MI-6 gets attacked. Not to mention Bond having to go through tests and being questioned for his continuing abilities was also featured in Die Another Day, plus with Goldeneye's main villain being a former MI-6 agent. Its not surprising that a new Bond would draw on the older ones, but its curious that the latest would borrow from the 90s Bonds, an era that rivaled the Roger Moore ones in campy cheesiness.

Winston*
11-23-2012, 06:26 PM
I liked how Bardem had this whole thing planned for years, and then his method of killing M is to burst into a courtroom and shoot a pistol haphazardly.

Was impressed by the description capacity of the Sony VAIO laptop.

number8
11-25-2012, 03:31 AM
Which didn't require him to be captured at all, don't forget.

Come to think of it, his plan was to hack MI6 so that M would be called to a courtroom. You'd think there'd be a simpler way.

Sxottlan
11-25-2012, 09:06 AM
Still works great upon second viewing (first time seeing a Bond film twice in theaters). Sure, the plan has rightfully undergone much scrutiny already. One could say Silva's plot is similar to Loki's, which a blogger earlier this year convincingly explained as a win-win (http://maskofreason.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/very-good-writing-why-loki-won-in-the-avengers/) for the villain. But the timing of it all seems to leave a razor-thin margin of error for Silva.

No matter. Everyone sells it. The crowd I saw it today with was a good one. People's skin were audibly crawling when Silva was touching Bond, with a cathartic laugh at his punchline. And they broke out into applause at the appearance of the Aston Martin.

About once a year I have a "holy shit" moment at the movie theater. A moment when I literally will yell "holy shit!" because something is so unbelievably cool. Yoda fighting with a lightsaber was one such moment. The headlight machine guns on the Aston Martin making a return appearance after 40 some odd years is another.

Dukefrukem
11-25-2012, 04:00 PM
I saw a lot of comparisons to Goldeneye,

Really? Aside from the hacking theme, Goldeneye didn't cross my mind once. I'll say I agree with most people here that some of the wide lens shots were phenomenal, particularly the mansion burning at night. But the plot didn't do anything for me as mentioned by StanleyK. The scheme against M and the self capture twist were disappointing.


Oh, and was this the best Bond opening credit sequence? Loved it.

Dukefrukem
11-25-2012, 04:07 PM
The scotch line is so clearly Bond trying not to show his weak side in front of an adversary. He doesn't want to appear hurt or shocked.

Same thing when he says "The bitch is dead" at the end of Casino Royale.

Great observation.

Skitch
11-25-2012, 04:09 PM
I've long maintained that the very best entries in the Bond series were the ones that forced Bond to look at himself, talked about his back story, made him question why he does what he does. This is why I love Goldeneye so much. Alec Trevelyn being a villain is fascinating, he throws all of Bonds Bondisms in his face, makes him question himself and MI6. I also love the Timothy Dalton entries, especially License To Kill where his license is revoked and he goes off on a personal vengeance mission. I feel these are more interesting than the usual crazy-take-over-the-world-villain, have sex, find down crazy guy, kill him, have sex with woman #2, raise the Bond music, credits. Those are fun, sure, but they don't really add anything to the character of Bond.

In Skyfall Javaier was a former MI6 agent who turned and decided to destroy MI6. Same with Trevelyn in Goldeneye. He wanted to destroy MI6 and London as revenge for what the British did to his parents...oh, and make a bunch of money on the side. :P

But they both questioned Bond on why and for who he kills. They explore that avenue into Bond's psyche.

Dukefrukem
11-25-2012, 04:23 PM
License To Kill is my favorite bond movie Skitch.

Skitch
11-25-2012, 04:34 PM
:) I love Daltons two entries.

[ETM]
11-25-2012, 04:46 PM
Oh, and was this the best Bond opening credit sequence? Loved it.

I'm still pretty partial to the Casino Royale opener, even though it is close.

Morris Schæffer
11-25-2012, 07:47 PM
About once a year I have a "holy shit" moment at the movie theater. A moment when I literally will yell "holy shit!" because something is so unbelievably cool. Yoda fighting with a lightsaber was one such moment. The headlight machine guns on the Aston Martin making a return appearance after 40 some odd years is another.

Now that I recall, wasn't there a joke between M and Bond about the ejector seat? I thought it was very funny, but for some reason I forgot the specifics. I believe it had to do with the button underneath the gear stick.

megladon8
11-25-2012, 08:19 PM
Now that I recall, wasn't there a joke between M and Bond about the ejector seat? I thought it was very funny, but for some reason I forgot the specifics. I believe it had to do with the button underneath the gear stick.


M: This isn't very comfortable.

Bond flips the lid up on the gear stick revealing the ejector seat button.

BOND: Are you going to complain the whole way?

MadMan
11-25-2012, 08:19 PM
Now that I recall, wasn't there a joke between M and Bond about the ejector seat? I thought it was very funny, but for some reason I forgot the specifics. I believe it had to do with the button underneath the gear stick.Yes that joke was featured, where M tells Bond that if he can just eject her from the car for all she cares, or something of the sort.

I came around to realizing that License to Kill is awesome. I'm a fan of the Dalton Bonds, and I still don't get why he gets flank from some people for his portrayal of the character when he did a great job.

megladon8
11-25-2012, 10:55 PM
I really liked Dalton as Bond. I actually much prefer him to Roger Moore.

I think that huge change in style and tone is what caused a lot of the vitriol towards both Dalton and his films - Moore actually had/has quite a significant fan base. Regardless of how good Dalton was, he was pretty much destined to be hated by a big crowd.

I think much of the reason why Craig has been so widely embraced is because he appeals to much of the same generation that grew up with the Connery Bond films (with Connery in-arguably being the most popular of all the Bond actors).

It's always been strange to me that people take Craig's brutish, thug-like interpretation of the character as being something new - that Bond being a cold, borderline psychotic protagonist (I intentionally avoid using the word "hero" for Bond) is something new to the series. If anything, Craig is channeling Connery just as much as he is making the role his own.

While the execution of the violence and action in the '60s films is unquestionably dated, the moral code of Bond has been left in pristine condition since From Russia With Love.

Dalton, I feel, channeled this same no-nonsense Connery attitude into his performances as Bond, but again, because it was no longer an outright slapstick comedy starring the completely unbelievable Moore as the double-0 agent, audiences were left confused.

I'm not meaning to crap on all of the work that Moore did as the character (The Spy Who Loved Me is a gadget and comedy filled romp, and is also one of the best films in the whole series) but he had the highest ratio of bad-to-good films in the series until Brosnan came around and only made one truly good film (Goldeneye).

And of course we have to take generational changes into account here, as well. There is perhaps no other character in western pop culture who has prevailed as long as Bond has on the silver screen, and he is being reinvented for every generation. Moore's Bond was a cocky, "lover-not-a-fighter" Bond who let his gadgets do his violence for him and spent most of his screen time making one-liners and banging models. In comes Dalton in the early '80s who attempts to bring things down to reality a bit more (one story of cold-war espionage and another of a personal vendetta against a violent drug cartel) and it just didn't fit with the "more-is-more" time that was the '80s. Then the mid-90s roll around, everything in pop culture is dark and dreary and gritty, and so Goldeneye was a perfect bridge for the character, maintaining the cool cockiness of the '70s output while grounding the story in a darker light and with the most personal edge audiences had seen since On Her Majesty's Secret Service. But then the studio completely mucked up the good thing they had going by deciding to bring back the silliness of the '70s Moore films for a generation that was just SO not interested in that, and wanted more dark, more gritty, more real.

kopello
11-25-2012, 11:34 PM
I just got back from seeing it and overall I quite enjoyed it. One of the film's biggest flaws I thought was that they easily could have cut 20 minutes out. Many scenes go on far longer than necessary and some could've been cut completely, e.g.: the shaving scene. The plot is a bit circular and like many others have said the villain planning it all out from the beginning is totally absurd (though Bardem once again plays the perfect psychopath). I can overlook the silly plot points though in favor of the great performances, intense action, and beautiful photography by Deakins, I just wish the film was a bit more fluid.

Morris Schæffer
11-26-2012, 05:16 AM
M: This isn't very comfortable.

Bond flips the lid up on the gear stick revealing the ejector seat button.

BOND: Are you going to complain the whole way?

Yep. That was it! :)

Fezzik
11-26-2012, 02:08 PM
The more time goes by, the less I want to go back to the theatre and finish watching this one. The first half did not engage me at all, which really disappoints me. I don't want to sit through that first half again just to see if the second half is better.

I guess I'll wait until video.

Skitch
11-26-2012, 11:01 PM
Good thoughts meg. Agreed all around.

Stay Puft
12-06-2012, 07:26 PM
Enjoyable. Liked the focus on Bond and M, the juxtaposition with the villain's origins. Bardem was fun. Overlong, though, for sure. Better than Quantum of Solace, but not as good as Casino Royale.

Gotta say, thought the opening was kinda bad. The other action bits in the film are much better (the single shot fight in Shanghai, the assault at the end). Also, distracting special effects ahoy. Good miniature work at the end, but terrible use of CGI throughout. Never feels right in a Bond flick. Images of Pierce Brosnan surfing a tidal wave through my mind.

Thought they did a nice job reintroducing classic characters and elements of the franchise (e.g. not going to object to more Whishaw as Q in the future), but the cute little winks and nods were groan inducing, felt tonally out of place (references to ejector seats, exploding pens, that kind of stuff).

Morris Schæffer
12-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Good miniature work at the end, but terrible use of CGI throughout. Never feels right in a Bond flick. Images of Pierce Brosnan surfing a tidal wave through my mind.

Ouch! Where did you see this bad CGI?

kopello
12-08-2012, 03:06 AM
Gotta say, thought the opening was kinda bad.

I kinda agree. Part of me thought it was cool but I also found it cartoony. It reminded me of the Moroccan chase scene in Tintin.

Stay Puft
12-08-2012, 10:35 PM
Ouch! Where did you see this bad CGI?

Worst offenders:

Bardem's facial disfigurement.
Assassin being dropped out of the window.

Also:
scorpions
helicopters

Nothing outright offensive like Die Another Day, to be fair, but still something I'd rather the series avoid. Doesn't gel with me.

number8
12-08-2012, 10:48 PM
I thought you'd say the komodos. Those were pretty bad.

Winston*
12-08-2012, 11:09 PM
Worst offenders:

Bardem's facial disfigurement.
Assassin being dropped out of the window.

Also:
scorpions
helicopters

Nothing outright offensive like Die Another Day, to be fair, but still something I'd rather the series avoid. Doesn't gel with me.

Most obvious to me was the close ups of Bond on the motorbike at the start.

The facial reveal was weird because that's not how hydrogen cyanide works. It's not some corrosive acid that burns you from the inside.

Morris Schæffer
12-09-2012, 07:48 AM
I thought the shot of the falling assassin was a great one. Don't remember a single fake pixel in it. And such shots are pretty difficult to get right anyway.

The opening underwhelmed me in that a motorcycle chase isn't exactly a shining beacon of originality while it has Bond operating heavy construction equipment again. Still a good start to the movie.

Qrazy
12-12-2012, 09:42 PM
Most obvious to me was the close ups of Bond on the motorbike at the start.

The facial reveal was weird because that's not how hydrogen cyanide works. It's not some corrosive acid that burns you from the inside.

Or gets fixed when you put your dentures back in.

Ezee E
01-02-2013, 01:53 AM
This has made one billion dollars worldwide. #14 alltime. Jees.

Scar
01-23-2013, 12:26 PM
500 Nitro Express double rifles kick a little bit more than that...

Raiders
02-15-2013, 02:15 PM
Gorgeous film, but my god is it overlong. I had so much trouble keeping interested whatsoever in the plot or anything happening over the last 30 minutes. The first half, culminating in the wonderfully staged and evocative fight in the empty building, backlit by damn-near surrealist images, was probably the best hour of Bond yet. The second half was more-or-less interminable though. I just didn't care, and I never do with Bond films really, but at their best they at least stay light and sexy (even the first Craig film managed to be pretty light-footed in its latter stages); this film though just became pretty dour and downright silly. The amount of heft given the Bond's "going home" was quickly undermined by Finney's ill-advised character sapping all the actual potential emotion right from the room. I also found the last shootout in the house to be disappointingly chopped and failing to be lit either dark enough to create much tension or light enough to get much handle on who is where.


Very disappointing.

Dukefrukem
02-21-2013, 05:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWfg__wKSY&list=PL086867C1ED88C7D7&index=5

Dead & Messed Up
02-27-2013, 08:26 AM
I dug this flick, and I dug it more and more as it went on, most likely because I like it when an action film strips its layers away and sees how lean and focused it can get. I even wished Finney hadn't arrived, since the film at that point succeeds so well at being small. I love a good fortifying-the-base montage, and I liked how the surroundings matched the at-times excessive theme about old ways vs. new ways. You know this is the kind of crap M was handling when she was young.

There are some neat little story symmetries, the most notable being that Skyfall is where Bond lost both his parents and now M, a surrogate parent to him.

And other smaller ones, like the fall into the ice paralleling the fall into the river that opens the film.

I agree that the scene with the former sex slave dying felt uncomfortable, mostly because it would've been nice to get a moment or two for Bond to more authentically react. I bought that he was trying to steel himself for the fight, but disposing of her so...anonymously, felt wrong, especially after the story went to the trouble of giving her a sympathetic back-story.

Bardem played his part well, although I wish they wouldn't've done the ol' "He wanted to get captured!" routine. Might've even worked better if he wasn't expecting his pals to boost him - that would explain why his master plan involved walking into a courtroom and opening fire. Revenge!

In retrospect, I really like Q's line about exploding pens, if only because it shows the series' brazen self-contradiction in grasping for relevancy while clinging to its more absurd past. No exploding pens. But here's the Aston Martin with guns in its headlights. Cyber-terrorism. But here's an Oriental lair with a dragon lady and beasts in a pit.

The Dark Knight stuff didn't feel limited to story details. Newman's tappa-tatappa-tatappa percussion felt Zimmer-influenced, and if you would've told me that Nolan consulted on the cross-cutting between the prison break and the trial attack, I would have believed you.

Morris Schæffer
02-27-2013, 10:56 AM
Bardem played his part well, although I wish they wouldn't've done the ol' "He wanted to get captured!" routine. Might've even worked better if he wasn't expecting his pals to boost him - that would explain why his master plan involved walking into a courtroom and opening fire. Revenge!




I said this also on RT and then some guy responded that maybe he didn't want to get captured, but merely improvised his way out of there.

Dead & Messed Up
02-27-2013, 06:00 PM
Were that the case, I doubt Mendes would've included those cross-cut image of Bardem confidently standing up and preparing himself for extraction.

Kurosawa Fan
03-23-2013, 06:43 PM
Violence and major set pieces are, of course, a staple of Bond films, and in this respect the latest installment is not lacking, though it is noticeably toned down. It never hits the silly heights of the worst the franchise has to offer. There are no fights on the moon, no running across the backs of alligators, or to keep in in Craig's tenure, no mad chases through a construction site. The movie opens with a roof top motorcycle chase that leads to a fight on the top of a speeding train, yet that is as wild as things get. The violence escalates from there, with deaths via fall from a skyscraper, komodo dragon, and bullets to the head, but each moment is within the bounds of reality (yes, even the komodo dragon scene). The most important moment happens early on, with Bond being shot by a member of his own agency and falling to his potential death from the top of the speeding train. He falls from an impossible height into the waters below, is presumed dead, and only reemerges after being rejuvenated by rough sex with exotic island girls and dangerous scorpion-dodging shots of alcohol. This is Bond hitting rock bottom. He knows that Dench's M ordered his companion to take the shot that knocked him from the train, and that another agent didn't survive, is left despondent and destructive. That ushers in one of the themes of the film.

Skyfall is, in part, about violent ends leading to new beginnings, and a returning to one's roots, both literally and figuratively. After coming back to London in response to a terrorist attack, Bond is allowed to go back into the field to track those responsible. This leads him to a former agent turned antagonist out for revenge against MI-6 and M herself. Throughout this process, Bond is questioned and observed. He is thought to be too old, too unstable, and physically ineffective against new threats. He spends the better part of the film proving through his actions, both to his superiors and himself, that he is still 007, that stoic, indefatigable, immortal hero capable of saving Mother England and the world time after time. To accomplish this, he must face his past, bringing him back to his childhood home of Skyfall for the climax of the film, a place whose mere mention causes such distress during a psych evaluation that Bond ends the session and storms out. It is here Bond must face the demons of his past, the death of his parents at a young age, as well as the demon of the present, threatening the stability of the country.

Between the cleansing of Bond by water and by fire, the reduced spectacle of the action, and the reintroduction of classic characters reborn with young actors, it is clear this is a transition for the franchise back to its origins. While this likely sets up the future nicely, it presented two very significant problems for Skyfall. First and foremost, the toned-down spectacle brought the narrative into much closer focus. What we have is a story so rote it's flat out dull. The agent reborn is a tired cliche, right down to the failed psych exam. The stealing of agent names in the field is taken directly from the first Mission: Impossible. The "information as power" villain has been done better. The villain captured on purpose, "It's all part of his plan!!" plot is a stain on Bond's intelligence as an agent. The vendetta against M, and how those events play out, is just as tired. With nothing terrible fresh to offer in terms of story, it becomes obvious that this franchise has been surviving on the escalation of stunts.

More troubling is that the transition of the franchise wasn't followed by a reexamination of the sexism of Bond. This isn't the 60's anymore. A franchise, even one as well-known as this one, shouldn't feel required to make every female a sexual object for its hero to exploit. And really, that's the only way to describe what takes place in Skyfall. Even if we ignore the random woman Bond is having his way with in his beach shack, because without any information about her, it is just as probably she was getting only what she wanted out of their tryst. Even if we ignore the field agent (whose identity shall remain nameless just in case) who accidentally shot him, only to show up at his door, on a mission to shave him and then offer herself to him, there is no ignoring the scene between Bond and Severine. We aren't given much about her history, but what we do know is revealed by Bond himself: that she is a former sex slave who is now the ownership of our soon to be revealed villain. After telling her that he can kill her owner and free her, and dispatching with her armed henchmen, he meets her on a yacht, at which point he sneaks into her shower and has his way with her. How does a film justify this? How reprehensible can Bond's sexual proclivities be? You can't get much worse than having a five minute conversation with a woman who you discover is a sex slave, offer her a path to freedom, and then sneak up on her in the shower for sex. Was that her payment for your services, Mr. Bond? It is such a despicable move, that what happens afterward probably came as a relief to Severine.

Daniel Craig is on record as saying he believes Bond should have a homosexual encounter in a future film, a move toward showing his willingness to do whatever the job asks of him in order to defend his country, as well as to temper some of his intense masculinity (we see a touch of this in his initial encounter with Javier Bardem's Silva). Thus far, his suggestion has fallen on unreceptive ears. I would petition that Daniel Craig, as well as any future writers and directors of the Bond franchise, find a nice middle ground in presenting a Bond that isn't required to have sex with any woman with two legs and a pulse. A bit of morality might be a nice touch moving forward. Returning the character to his roots is fine, so long as we all keep in mind that he's existing in a new era with a more progressive outlook on gender and sexual politics.

Watashi
03-23-2013, 07:01 PM
Did you write that for a newspaper/school paper?

Kurosawa Fan
03-23-2013, 07:06 PM
Did you write that for a newspaper/school paper?

Nope, I'm just trying to make an effort to write about movies again. Not sure why.

Watashi
03-23-2013, 07:10 PM
Nope, I'm just trying to make an effort to write about movies again. Not sure why.

Nice. I need to write more film stuff. I do however incorporate a lot of film knowledge in my school papers. For one of my final papers this semester, I will be comparing The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock to It's Such a Beautiful Day. It will finally motivate me to write about that film.

Kurosawa Fan
03-23-2013, 07:17 PM
Nice. I need to write more film stuff. I do however incorporate a lot of film knowledge in my school papers. For one of my final papers this semester, I will be comparing The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock to It's Such a Beautiful Day. It will finally motivate me to write about that film.

Awesome. Sounds like it could make a fascinating paper. Make sure you post it when it's finished.

Dead & Messed Up
03-23-2013, 07:39 PM
Yeah, KF, that stuff with the former sex slave didn't sit terribly well, and you make it really clear why it's not just a botched sequence, but also indicative of the struggle with honoring Bond's legacy. Some elements need to be discarded.

Rowland
03-23-2013, 08:32 PM
That entire subplot seems like it's setting up an autocritique that never fully materializes, though the very fact that her characterization renders her fate so particularly icky is perhaps progress in and of itself, because I find it difficult to imagine that the filmmakers happened upon that effect entirely by chance, especially given how concerned the film is with recontextualizing Bond in the modern era. It feels like there's a missing scene, or even a snippet of dialogue, that could have made all the difference.

number8
03-25-2013, 03:23 PM
He falls from an impossible height into the waters below, is presumed dead, and only reemerges after being rejuvenated by rough sex with exotic island girls and dangerous scorpion-dodging shots of alcohol. This is Bond hitting rock bottom.

You know, until it's written for me like that, it didn't really occur to me how ridiculous it is that Bond's rock bottom was most people's paradise vacation. I think Craig sold it so well.

Grouchy
03-25-2013, 03:51 PM
I dunno about the sex slave thing, KF. I like James Bond a lot and I'm well aware that he's supposed to be an imperialist, chauvinistic bigot and a fucking bastard at heart. I consider him an anti-hero. I'd rather the movies didn't shy away from that instead of sugar-coating it. In short, I wouldn't want them to become PC or bow down to the "gender issues" police. I'd rather they'd just stop making them if it's gonna be like that.

EvilShoe
03-25-2013, 04:23 PM
You know, until it's written for me like that, it didn't really occur to me how ridiculous it is that Bond's rock bottom was most people's paradise vacation. I think Craig sold it so well.
Nothing says rock bottom like drinking Heineken, though.

number8
03-25-2013, 07:01 PM
Nothing says rock bottom like drinking Heineken, though.

I love when product placement makes sense!

Kurosawa Fan
03-25-2013, 08:36 PM
I dunno about the sex slave thing, KF. I like James Bond a lot and I'm well aware that he's supposed to be an imperialist, chauvinistic bigot and a fucking bastard at heart. I consider him an anti-hero. I'd rather the movies didn't shy away from that instead of sugar-coating it. In short, I wouldn't want them to become PC or bow down to the "gender issues" police. I'd rather they'd just stop making them if it's gonna be like that.

Calling it PC or bowing down to not surprise a woman in the shower that you just found out is a sex slave is quite a leap. I'd just prefer my heroes (and even my anti-heroes, which I don't consider Bond) have a shred of dignity.

number8
03-25-2013, 08:58 PM
I'm not defending it, but having sex with a former sex slave is pretty tame considering the character raped a lesbian before.

James Bond has always been, and always will be, a model of a terrible gentleman whose treatment of women should not be imitated or revered. Whether or not such a character deserves to be made an iconic international hero is up for debate, but making movies where he behaves that way is certainly in keeping with the character.

number8
03-25-2013, 09:12 PM
I would say, though, one of the reasons why Casino Royale remains my favorite is the fact that it's the most successful in examining Bond's treatment of women, without having him go out of character. Aside from the shocking "bitch is dead" line, I still really like the fake-out where he finds out that he doesn't need to sleep with the enemy's woman because his target's already gone, so he just gets up and walks away because he has a new mission, and that's what the love scene was to him: a mission. With Brosnan and Dalton, and even Connery, you got the sense that they wouldn't leave a woman high and dry, that making love to women was some sort of chauvinistic duty and privilege. Craig did not give a fuck. Literally.

Kurosawa Fan
03-25-2013, 09:26 PM
I'm not defending it, but having sex with a former sex slave is pretty tame considering the character raped a lesbian before.

James Bond has always been, and always will be, a model of a terrible gentleman whose treatment of women should not be imitated or revered. Whether or not such a character deserves to be made an iconic international hero is up for debate, but making movies where he behaves that way is certainly in keeping with the character.

I'll admit I'm no authority on Bond and his exploits throughout the years, but it seems to me that the Bond Connery portrayed was a much tamer individual than the one being showcased today. Either way, if it's a change the character needs, I'm all for it. The bolded section above was the point of my critique. Perhaps I'm in the midst of a disillusionment when it comes to Bond's treatment of women, but if that's the moral code of one of cinema's great heroes (or anti-heroes), he can die off already.

It's also worth noting that Bond sleeping with the sex slave did nothing to help his mission. He was already on the boat, being escorted to the villain. Her freedom from Bardem's grasp was all the motivation she needed to give him up. In that case, Craig's Bond is actually regressing, which is a fairly repulsive thought considering the somber, reflective tone of the film.

Dead & Messed Up
03-25-2013, 09:48 PM
I think a Bond movie would still be plenty entertaining and honorable without him doing the things he did to that woman in Skyfall. The previous films can kinda-sorta be dismissed with "for their time" comments and awkward chuckles, but it's getting harder and harder for me to accept that element of the character. It's funny how that somewhat loathsome element of the character remains while more superficial elements - like the switch to more tech-savvy "plausible" villainy - see such overhauls. It's like they're constantly re-painting a house while termites slowly eat at the foundation.

number8
03-25-2013, 10:21 PM
I'll admit I'm no authority on Bond and his exploits throughout the years, but it seems to me that the Bond Connery portrayed was a much tamer individual than the one being showcased today.

Yes and no. They were more wary to portray him as an anti-hero back then, but that means that they got away with a lot more casual sexism.

And also, the infamous rape scene:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pUXH1Bye88

Even worse if you know about the character in the novel, who became a lesbian because her uncle raped her when she was a child. Bond knew this, so he sought to fix her. By raping her. And it worked (Bond tells her that the reason she was a lesbian for so long is because she's never met a real man before--until Bond, that is). Blackman said she played Galore with all of that in mind, but they never explicitly stated her backstory in the movie, probably because it would make the hero of the movie a pretty fucking awful person.


It's also worth noting that Bond sleeping with the sex slave did nothing to help his mission. He was already on the boat, being escorted to the villain. Her freedom from Bardem's grasp was all the motivation she needed to give him up. In that case, Craig's Bond is actually regressing, which is a fairly repulsive thought considering the somber, reflective tone of the film.

He is regressing, and that's set up in Casino Royale, actually. Vesper's betrayal was supposed to be the reason why he now actively dislikes or disrespects women ("the bitch is dead"). It's not backed up by any reflection, of course, but continuity-wise, there is an explanation for it.

Grouchy
03-26-2013, 12:53 AM
I'll admit I'm no authority on Bond and his exploits throughout the years, but it seems to me that the Bond Connery portrayed was a much tamer individual than the one being showcased today.
You need to watch those again, then. It's not only the Pussy Galore scene. He constantly slaps dames for even the mildest annoyances. I think the tamest and most family-friendly they got with Bond were the Roger Moore years, and those are the worst films on the franchise until the last Brosnan.

In real life, I obviously don't condone hitting or raping woman, or even taking advantage of them. But that's the fictional character good ol' 007 has always been, stemming from the Ian Fleming novels. I'm glad the Daniel Craig films include that type of content so unapologetically.

megladon8
03-26-2013, 01:08 AM
Bond has never been anything close to a good person.

Anti-hero is too romantic a term for him.

Kurosawa Fan
03-26-2013, 01:10 AM
You need to watch those again, then. It's not only the Pussy Galore scene. He constantly slaps dames for even the mildest annoyances. I think the tamer and more family-friendly they got with Bond were the Roger Moore years, and those are the worst films in the franchise until the last Brosnan.

In real life, I obviously don't condone hitting or raping woman, or even taking advantage of them. But that's the fictional character good ol' 007 has always been, stemming from the Ian Fleming novels. I'm glad the Daniel Craig films include that type of content so unapologetically.

Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm all done with the franchise.

amberlita
03-26-2013, 04:15 AM
You guys needs a woman's perspective on this.

If I were a lesbian, I'd still want to have sex with Sean Connery.
If I were a former sex slave, I'd still want to have sexy time with Daniel Craig.

I think case closed.

Morris Schæffer
03-26-2013, 06:19 AM
I guess there's rape and then there's rape. Always thought the Pussy Galore scene was a little playful. She probably enjoyed it anyway and sure enough by the end, they're together making out. Bond is very much a good guy to me, but a tad edgier than most.

Grouchy
03-26-2013, 06:40 AM
It's not the violence on screen but the subtext of that scene which is wrong, I think - the implication that a lesbian is just a woman who hasn't found the right man, instead of a woman who likes women.

amber, I'm naturally curious. Would you put up with any abuse from Roger Moore to have sexy time?

number8
03-26-2013, 12:16 PM
The bigger issue is that "it was playful" and "she's playing hard to get" are go-to reliable excuses by date rapists.

I mean, if a woman tries to leave and you grab her arm, judo slam her to the ground, sits on her and forces yourself on her until she gives in, it's rather irrelevant if she enjoys it afterwards or not. I feel like this should be cut and dry.

Melville
03-26-2013, 12:45 PM
I don't see any raping go on in that scene. It is playful, and she's clearly consenting before anything explicitly sexual happens. I think the potentially off-putting aspect there, and generally in Bond movies, is the implicit understanding that every woman, no matter who she is or what the context, will always, deep down, want to have sex with Bond, and it's always within his rights as the hypersexual man to take advantage of that in whatever way he likes. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing; it's a certain kind of movie fantasy that works for at least some members of both genders. But I agree with KF that as the movies become more serious-minded and less pure fantasy, their treatment of gender and sexuality fits less well. Maybe Quantum of Solace's ambiguous treatment was better in that sense: I recall it, unlike Skyfall, portraying Bond's use of sex as a morally questionable thing (when the girl at the hotel ends up dead). On the other hand, Quantum of Solace stunk and Skyfall was good.

Melville
03-26-2013, 01:32 PM
Also, I may be wrong, but I remember the scene in Skyfall suggesting that sex with Bond was somehow positive for the woman. That can be read two ways: either as being obnoxious in the way as the Goldfinger scene (she's had a horrible past, but sex with Bond will sort her right out); or as simply saying that sex with someone who genuinely wants to help her, rather than just use her, is cathartic for her. I guess the latter would rely on interpreting Bond's actions as not simply using her for his own ends.

amberlita
03-27-2013, 07:54 AM
amber, I'm naturally curious. Would you put up with any abuse from Roger Moore to have sexy time?

Absolutely not! I would only allow myself to be sexually debased by an extremely attractive man. Roger Moore looks like a foot.

number8
03-27-2013, 12:48 PM
Also, I may be wrong, but I remember the scene in Skyfall suggesting that sex with Bond was somehow positive for the woman. That can be read two ways: either as being obnoxious in the way as the Goldfinger scene (she's had a horrible past, but sex with Bond will sort her right out); or as simply saying that sex with someone who genuinely wants to help her, rather than just use her, is cathartic for her. I guess the latter would rely on interpreting Bond's actions as not simply using her for his own ends.

This is hard to argue considering she gets shot like ten minutes later and Bond shrugs it off and then literally doesn't mention her again for the rest of the movie.

EvilShoe
03-27-2013, 02:40 PM
I guess there's rape and then there's rape.
Quote of the week.

number8
03-27-2013, 02:47 PM
http://www.regretsy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/raperape.jpg

Raiders
03-27-2013, 05:03 PM
To be fair, I am certain her body shut down when it happened and thus was not "legitimate." So, Morris has a point...

MadMan
03-27-2013, 07:23 PM
Uh I just watch the Bond movies for the action, violence, and explosions, cool cars and gadgets. If they ever cut out the sex scenes I wouldn't give a shit. I still find it interesting that seeing Bond just doing whatever is more entertaining than whoever he fights. The villains are starting to blend into one and become hard to tell apart, and the story lines are all old hat. I realized that Bond is charismatic enough that I could watch him make toast and still probably be entertained. That's my problem with the series, even though I've seen all the movies and I loved Skyfall. I would like to see a Bond movie where they show him going on missions, or dealing with his own problems, than fighting some bad guy hell bent on world domination. Of course that movie would never get made, because you have to have things like plot, story, evil genius, blah blah.

And yes once again I'm sure I am not the only one who noticed that Bond's paradise vacation seemed all too familiar to us fans of a certain Bond spoof animated show that's on FX ;)

MadMan
03-27-2013, 07:25 PM
Also this is why there won't be another Friday the 13th movie unless they get someone willing to shake up that franchise. Its why QT will never be allowed to make a Bond movie. And yes I realize I'm sounding like Irish, but I never disagreed with him on that point.

Irish
03-28-2013, 01:21 AM
If I were a lesbian, I'd still want to have sex with Sean Connery.
If I were a former sex slave, I'd still want to have sexy time with Daniel Craig.

I see. I see how it is. Out of all possible Bonds, no love for the Irish guy. You go with the Scot and that damned Englishman instead. :|

Irish
03-28-2013, 01:22 AM
As for the girl in Skyfall, I think you guys are overthinking it.

She's mostly a plot device to get Bond from point A to point B. I was surprised how cursorily her character was treated. Unlike a lot of the other girls, her character lacked any kind of importance and had almost no screen time. It's almost as if they forgot to include a "Bond girl" on the first draft and then went back and added her in later -- because, hey, it's Bond and if he doesn't have sex in these movies, that'd be even weirder than the dynamic presented in "Skyfall."

MadMan
04-01-2013, 02:05 AM
I would like to add that throughout the history of spying and espionage sex has been used as a weapon, primarily to turn enemy agents. Considering that Ian Flemming was formally a British spy its not all too surprising that the Bond books and consequently the movies feature sex as much as they do.

And considering the series history of girls that Bond sleeps with getting killed I wasn't really shocked by what happened to whats her name. Maybe my enjoyment of the Bond series means I'm a perverted sexist pig that enjoys extreme violence committed by a colonialist style Brit who serves queen and country even when said country is ruled by horrible people. I mean if we're taking these movies seriously, which I've never done because all of them are really silly one way or another.

Grouchy
04-01-2013, 04:26 PM
I saw Live and Let Die yesterday for the same time. If it was shorter and starred Connery, it might be one of the best. Liked everything that took place in New York and New Orleans except for the endless boat chase.

I really don't hold anything against Roger Moore as an actor. He's always seemed like a likeable fellow. But his whole "smiling dandy" thing is very ill-suited to Bond.

Morris Schæffer
04-04-2013, 10:53 AM
Saw this again on my brand spanking new Panasonic Plasma. Picture was brilliant. Movie still good, but flaws still grate. It is repeated a few times that MI-6 has the best security system in place, but Silva cracks it multiple times, once when incarcerated. And it never occured to me that maybe he was a genius, but rather that the writers were lazy. How does Silva take out the cops outside his cell? He's got no weapons. Did he move at the speed of light?

transmogrifier
09-07-2014, 11:58 AM
Half rewatching this as it's on TV, and the entire plot of the bad guy is so monumentally dumb, it's almost a parody. Set up being caught years in advance just so you could escape and get into a cop car with a bunch of your lackeys that magically appears independent of the capture-and-hacking nonsense and then go somewhere that you could have got to a million different ways, and then cleverly just shoot up the room. Fuck me. I like Quantum of Solace better.

MadMan
09-08-2014, 07:26 AM
I love Roger Moore's corny jokes, and I think he had a blast playing Bond. Connery was the best but near the end of his run he was clearly phoning it in. You could accuse Moore of many things but he never did that.

trans I can't agree with you that QOS is better (or that I like it better) but I did enjoy that one and I never quit got the hate it received. As for Skyfall I'm sure I'm repeating myself when I keep noting that at this point I don't even care who James Bond fights or what the plot is, I just like seeing him do badass stuff and be badass. Although if they finally bring back SPECTRE I might care about the actual story lines again.

Morris Schæffer
09-08-2014, 10:48 AM
Never thought Connery was phoning it in. Diamonds are Forever, his last official entry, isn't a fave of mine at all, but if he was phoning it in, surely this could be said also of Moore in Octopussy and A View to a Kill. It's probably tricky to accuse an actor of phoning it in when lotso times the culprit can just as easily be the story, script and a barrage of other elements.