Match Cut's Top 5 Favorite Scenes - Week 2 - INGMAR BERGMAN

[Watashi]

http://i2.listal.com/image/1322610/600full-ingmar-bergman.jpg

INGMAR BERGMAN

List your top 5 favorite Ingmar Bergman scenes.

Eligible films. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000005/#Director)

Note: Please put videos in spoiler tags to be considerate of others.

[Watashi]

There's still some essential Bergmans I need to see (Fanny and Alexander, Shame, Smiles of a Summer Night), but I think the list was hard enough from the limited filmography I've seen.

5. "Revenge" - The Virgin Spring

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4. "The Knight's Confession" - The Seventh Seal

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3. "Young Boys" - Persona

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2. "The Letter" - Winter Light

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1. "God's Silence" - Winter Light

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Number one was easy. The hunchback's monologue to the priest is one of the most powerful scenes in all of cinema and sums up everything about Bergman's philosophy in those few minutes.

[Ezee E]

There's so many I haven't seen.

[Izzy Black]

There's so many I wish I hadn't seen.

[Spinal]

There's so many I wish I hadn't seen.

:rolleyes:

[Spinal]

1. "God's Silence" - Winter Light

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Number one was easy. The hunchback's monologue to the priest is one of the powerful scenes in all of cinema and sums up everything about Bergman's philosophy in those few minutes.

I'll just copy and paste this onto my list.

[Watashi]

There's so many I haven't seen.
I've only seen 9 Bergmans and I still found compiling a Top 5 really tough.

Hell, I could have listed a Top 5 from Persona or Seventh Seal alone.

[Dukefrukem]

I've seen 1. So i'll pass on this.

[Melville]

Too many to choose from, and too many too hard to find on youtube. Here's a few.

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Wednesday the third of September... The tang of autumn fills the clear still air but it's mild and fine. My sisters, Karin and Maria have come to see me. It's wonderful to be together again like in the old days, and I am feeling much better. We were even able to go for a little walk together. Such an event for me, especially since i haven't been out of doors for so long. Suddenly we began to laugh and run toward the old swing that we hadn't seen since we were children. We sat in it like three good little sisters and Anna pushed us, slowly and gently. All my aches and pains were gone. The people I am most fond of in all the world were with me. I could hear their chatting around me. I could feel the presence of their bodies, the warmth of their hands. I wanted to hold the moment fast and thought, "Come what may, this is happiness. I cannot wish for anything better. Now, for a few minutes, I can experience perfection. And I feel profoundly grateful to my life, which gives me so much."

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Others: the murder in Hour of the Wolf, the final scene of Virgin Spring, the doctor eviscerating Liv Ullmann in Cries and Whispers, the dream in Cries and Whispers, death cutting down a tree in Seventh Seal, the knight's confession in Seventh Seal, the party in Fanny and Alexander, the fire in Fanny and Alexander, the every scene in Persona.


There's still some essential Bergmans I need to see (Fanny and Alexander)
You'll love it. Watch it post haste.


There's so many I wish I hadn't seen.
Where's one of those FAIL pictures when I need one.

[Watashi]

You'll love it. Watch it post haste.


I actually own it, but it's the theatrical version.

[Melville]

I actually own it, but it's the theatrical version.
That's the only one I've seen. It's magnificent. Though judging from Scenes from a Marriage, the tv version is probably superior.

[elixir]

The TV version is absolutely superior.

[elixir]

edit: Watashi already took care of this, I should read the first post before saying shit, sry!

[elixir]

5. ending of Through a Glass Darkly
4. the already mentioned "young boys" scene from Persona
3. Ismael in Fanny and Alexander
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2. ending of The Virgin Spring
1. Isak's story in Fanny and Alexander
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[soitgoes...]

Besides some already mentioned, I give you these.

Wild Strawberries dream sequence:
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Those eyes!
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The end to The Passion of Anna (much more affecting if you've seen what comes before it)
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[Mysterious Dude]

1. The first dream, Wild Strawberries

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2. Opening sequence and credits, Persona

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3. The murder of Karin, The Virgin Spring

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4. Max von Sydow shoots a guy, Shame

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5. Alexander meets some dead girls, Fanny and Alexander

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[Dead & Messed Up]

To my chagrin, I've seen only three of his films, and I can barely remember Fanny and Alexander. But the monologue about the beach in Persona and the final image of Death with his followers in The Seventh Seal are haunting as I think cinema can be.

[Pop Trash]

Are you collecting and tallying the votes for these Wats? Or are we just throwing them out there? I ask this since most of my Bergman choices have been mentioned.

[Watashi]

Are you collecting and tallying the votes for these Wats? Or are we just throwing them out there? I ask this since most of my Bergman choices have been mentioned.
No tally. The lists are for fun. If there are repeats, then so be it. These lists are supposed to be somewhat personal.

[Watashi]

the monologue about the beach in Persona

It's definitely the most hottest thing that cinema can be.

[transmogrifier]

Number of Bergman films I've seen = 0
How eager I am to rectify that = meh

I don't really know why.

[Boner M]

Struggling to come up with a list actually reminds me how little Bergman means to me, even though I generally like his films.

Shame's the only one I haven't seen yet that I really want to.

[Izzy Black]

I remember liking Bergman more in the beginning. His films don't age well in my memory as I get older. He's made at least one or two great films, though.

[soitgoes...]

The inevitable list making follows:

Amazing
Winter Light (1962)
The Virgin Spring (1960)
Smiles of a Summer Night (1955)
Wild Strawberries (1957)

Great
Scenes from a Marriage (1973)
Autumn Sonata (1978)
Fanny and Alexander (1982)
Sawdust and Tinsel (1953)
Persona (1966)
Karen’s Face (1984)

Pretty damn good
Cries and Whispers (1972)
Summer with Monika (1953)
The Seventh Seal (1957)
To Joy (1950)
The Passion of Anna (1969)
Through a Glass Darkly (1961)
Summer Interlude (1951)
Brink of Life (1958)
Prison (1949)
Hour of the Wolf (1968)

Good, but with reservations
The Silence (1963)
Shame (1968)
Dreams (1955)
The Devil’s Eye (1960)
A Ship Bound for India (1947)
A Lesson in Love (1954)
The Magician (1958)
After the Rehearsal (1984)

Meh
Man with an Umbrella (1946)
Secrets of Women (1952)
From the Life of the Marionettes (1980)
Crisis (1946)
Music in Darkness (1948)

Just awful
High Tension (1950)

[Spinal]

1. God's Silence - Winter Light
2. The Ending - The Virgin Spring
3. The Monologue - The Passion of Anna
4. Karin's Breakdown - Through a Glass Darkly
5. The Matches - Hour of the Wolf

[Pop Trash]

I feel this way about Godard. While I still really like a lot of Godard's films (esp. Breathless, Pierrot le Fou and some others), I feel like he meant a lot more to me in my late teens/early 20s. I think it has to do with his nihilistic "live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse" world view.

[elixir]

I don't think that's his worldview.

[Pop Trash]

I don't think that's his worldview.

It is for many of his more well known films. Think of the endings to Breathless, My Life to Live, and Pirrot le Fou (and I think Masculin Feminin but can't quite remember). Think of the final scene in all of those.

[soitgoes...]

I remember liking Bergman more in the beginning. His films don't age well in my memory as I get older. He's made at least one or two great films, though.
I think his films resonate stronger as I get older. Watching them for the first time in my twenties, I obviously fell in love with how his films looked and whatnot, but while I'm hesitant to say I didn't get what he was trying to say, I do think I get more meaning from his films with a bit of life behind me. Especially with his later works, when he moved away from an individual's inner conflict to focus more on conflicts in relationships. That ending scene from The Passion of Anna is just absolutely brutal and true. The film on a whole, doesn't exhibit the same sort of craft that many of his films have, but the film's message is unbelievably raw, as is Scenes from a Marriage.

[soitgoes...]

I think it has to do with his nihilistic "live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse" world view.Are you talking about Godard and Bergman here, or only Godard? Because I really don't see this being Bergman's world view at all.

[Pop Trash]

Are you talking about Godard and Bergman here, or only Godard? Because I really don't see this being Bergman's world view at all.

No no, just Godard. Specifically a handful of Godard's films, but a lot of his more well known/beloved/influential 60s films. Bergman isn't like that at all.

[Yxklyx]

My top 5 would be like 4 scenes from The Seventh Seal (which I love much more than any of his other films) and the erotic monologue from Persona. The opening of Persona is good too and might replace one from The Seventh Seal.

[Boner M]

It is for many of his more well known films. Think of the endings to Breathless, My Life to Live, and Pirrot le Fou (and I think Masculin Feminin but can't quite remember). Think of the final scene in all of those.
That's the worldview of the people within the films, not the films the film themselves. And in the case of My Life To Live, no one's.

[Izzy Black]

1. The Seventh Seal
2. Autumn Sonata
3. Fanny and Alexander (perhaps his most cinematic film)
4. The Virgin Spring

These are my top 4 Bergman films. I'd say the first three I'd consider "great" films. The Virgin Spring is good. I'm also OK with the TV version of Scenes from a Marriage (though it's crap visually), Hour of the Wolf, and Winter Light. The rest of his movies that I've seen I don't like particularly much.

[Izzy Black]

I think his films resonate stronger as I get older. Watching them for the first time in my twenties, I obviously fell in love with how his films looked and whatnot, but while I'm hesitant to say I didn't get what he was trying to say, I do think I get more meaning from his films with a bit of life behind me. Especially with his later works, when he moved away from an individual's inner conflict to focus more on conflicts in relationships. That ending scene from The Passion of Anna is just absolutely brutal and true. The film on a whole, doesn't exhibit the same sort of craft that many of his films have, but the film's message is unbelievably raw, as is Scenes from a Marriage.

His films, particularly these, are a bit too theatrical, I think. I mean theatrical in the literal sense. He's a dramatist first and foremost, and a stylist only in virtue of that. I walk away from his films feeling like I just walked out of gruelling 2 hour long session with a therapist. His films are emotionally exhausting, relying heavily on exposition and externalizing his characters' psychological hangups and neuroses. It's just a little too emotionally suffocating for my tastes. That's why I prefer his films where this isn't emphasized as much, his subtler moments, with the exception of Autumn Sonata (it does fascinating things stylistically).

[Spaceman Spiff]

His films, particularly these, are a bit too theatrical, I think. I mean theatrical in the literal sense. He's a dramatist first and foremost, and a stylist only in virtue of that.

I can actually agree with this. Bergman is a better director of actors and writer than somebody who was a master with lighting/mise en scene/etc. This also ties into why I also tend to think that Sven Nykvist was on the whole, a tad overrated. A dependable director of photography to be sure, but rarely a stylistic master despite being revered as one. Still, I like Bergman for his overt, talky 'plumbing within our minds and openly revealing our tormented selves' style even if there's nothing subtle about it and even if they aren't exactly the types of movies I enjoy watching more than once.

Scenes from a Marriage is definitely my favorite. It is my favorite if only because the disintegration of a relationship is far more meaningful to me than the disintegration of oneself because of God's silence.

Before Erland reveals himself to be a total douchebag, the dialogues between the two are always great, afterwards they become only slightly less so because I think the film is written in a way which favors Liv Ullman and thus makes the drama a little more inert. Probably my favorite scene from the entire series (and maybe Bergman's oeuvre) is the reveal of him leaving for Paris the next day.

[Sven]

and especially the latter, given his aesthetic.

Makes sense that The Sacrifice is my favorite film of his.

[Izzy Black]

I agree with most everything you've said, except I don't really think that makes Sven Nykvist overrated it just makes Bergman overrated. It shows that Nyvist carried the man on his back for years. I consider Nykvist a great cinematographer, but I think he was limited with what he had to work with. When Bergman wanted to motivate an expressive aesthetic and would let him go to work, he was amazing (Cries and Whispers, Fanny and Alexander, Autumn Sonata). In general, though, I think Nykvist could've achieved greater heights paired with a master like Godard, Antonioni, or Tarkovsky, and especially the latter, given his aesthetic.

I also agree with you about Bergman's films having little replay value. I don't find his kind of cinematic very appealing or engaging the older I get.

[Izzy Black]

Makes sense that The Sacrifice is my favorite film of his.
:)

[Raiders]

I mainly agree with Israfel, though Persona will forever remain to me a towering artistic statement and a film I can watch endlessly. I think it stands so apart from many of his films. The aesthetic itself is very invigorated and it feels the most "filmlike" of any of his I have seen. The camera tricks, the montage, the framing of the women... it's all so much more impactful than anything I have seen from him otherwise.

That said, there has been no mention in this thread of Smiles of a Summer Night which has a ton of great scenes, and is also unique and exquisite Bergman. Namely, it's really funny. Imagine that.

[Izzy Black]

Find Persona terribly overrated myself. I feel like it tries a little too hard to be "experimental arthouse." I actually look at the film as Bergman's attempt to compete with Antonioni and Godard. I find it underwhelming aesthetically (I mean, really, does he think flashing penises in the introduction is edgy?) I can see it's appeal on a dramatic level, but it's not my variety.

[Izzy Black]

That said, there has been no mention in this thread of Smiles of a Summer Night which has a ton of great scenes, and is also unique and exquisite Bergman. Namely, it's really funny. Imagine that.

Very charming film.

[Raiders]

Find Persona terribly overrated myself. I feel like it tries a little too hard to be "experimental arthouse." I actually look at the film as Bergman's attempt to compete with Antonioni and Godard.

Seems a strange opinion. I don't know what the film has to do with either of those filmmakers. The very personal story Bergman has recounted with respect to the making of Persona is touching and seems less likely he is just trying to re-create the popular form of experimental cinema, though my response to the film is solely informed by what is on-screen.


I find it underwhelming aesthetically (I mean, really, does he think flashing penises in the introduction is edgy?)

That image really has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the film. It's one second out of an 80-minute film and is part of a montage that intriguingly sets up the themes of the film at play (sexuality, emotional distance, Bergman himself--which leads into the religious imagery, and so on).

[Izzy Black]

Seems a strange opinion. I don't know what the film has to do with either of those filmmakers. The very personal story Bergman has recounted with respect to the making of Persona is touching and seems less likely he is just trying to re-create the popular form of experimental cinema, though my response to the film is solely informed by what is on-screen.

I think Bergman was genuinely trying to challenge himself as a filmmaker. I also think he envied the formal achievements of his contemporaries. By comparison, he was very traditional.


That image really has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the film. It's one second out of an 80-minute film and is part of a montage that intriguingly sets up the themes of the film at play (sexuality, emotional distance, Bergman himself--which leads into the religious imagery, and so on).

I don't think the montage was intriguing. It seems like a very forced and awkward way to establish the film's aesthetic.

But in any case, history is on your side. I'm too far removed from my viewing of the film to give any impassioned critique.

[Pop Trash]

That's the worldview of the people within the films, not the films the film themselves. And in the case of My Life To Live, no one's.

What? Bullshit. You don't think it was a calculated choice for Godard to [MAJOR SPOILER] kill off all of those three* main protagonists? All violently and in the final scene no less. Antoine Doinel certainly didn't get gunned down on the beach at the end of 400 Blows. Cleo didn't strap dynamite to herself and explode rather than face the medical test results in the final scene of Cleo From 5 to 7.

*and more films? It's been too long but I seem to remember Le Petit Soldat and Masculin Feminin having similar endings.

[Mysterious Dude]

That said, there has been no mention in this thread of Smiles of a Summer Night which has a ton of great scenes, and is also unique and exquisite Bergman. Namely, it's really funny. Imagine that.
I considered the Russian roulette scene.

It's been a very long time since I've seen most Bergman films, except Fanny and Alexander, which I saw earlier this year. It was hard to choose one scene from it.

Smiles of a Summer Night (1955) ****
The Seventh Seal (1957) ****
Wild Strawberries (1957) ****
The Virgin Spring (1960) ****
Through a Glass Darkly (1961) ***
Winter Light (1963) **½
The Silence (1963) ***
Persona (1966) ***
Hour of the Wolf (1968) **½
Shame (1968) ****
The Passion of Anna (1969) **½
Cries and Whispers (1972) ***
Scenes from a Marriage (1973) **½
Autumn Sonata (1978) **½
Fanny and Alexander (1982) ****

It's definitely time to re-watch some of them.

[Izzy Black]

What? Bullshit. You don't think it was a calculated choice for Godard to [MAJOR SPOILER] kill off all of those three* main protagonists? All violently and in the final scene no less. Antoine Doinel certainly didn't get gunned down on the beach at the end of 400 Blows. Cleo didn't strap dynamite to herself and explode rather than face the medical test results in the final scene of Cleo From 5 to 7.

*and more films? It's been too long but I seem to remember Le Petit Soldat and Masculin Feminin having similar endings.

The point is that Godard isn't committed to endorsing the self-destructive youth of his characters in virtue of making films about them. If anything, he's critical of them. In Breathless, that's most definitely the case. In My Life to Live, matters are more complicated. He reflects at a distance more than he critiques emotionally, which is why it's one of his more interesting films (and also happens to be his best).

[elixir]

What? Bullshit. You don't think it was a calculated choice for Godard to [MAJOR SPOILER] kill off all of those three* main protagonists? All violently and in the final scene no less. Antoine Doinel certainly didn't get gunned down on the beach at the end of 400 Blows. Cleo didn't strap dynamite to herself and explode rather than face the medical test results in the final scene of Cleo From 5 to 7.

*and more films? It's been too long but I seem to remember Le Petit Soldat and Masculin Feminin having similar endings.

I know how the films end. That doesn't somehow inherently prove your earlier statement on his worldview though, which I definitely disagree with.

[Pop Trash]

Forget it. We are getting way off track here. My initial point was how one's own life, their age, what they are doing, can effect the films and filmmakers you gravitate towards. I know I'm not the only person that feels this way IRL. I've had this exact same discussion with a cinephile friend of mine re: Godard.

[Boner M]

Forget it. We are getting way off track here. My initial point was how one's own life, their age, what they are doing, can effect the films and filmmakers you gravitate towards. I know I'm not the only person that feels this way IRL. I've had this exact same discussion with a cinephile friend of mine re: Godard.
I like this younger version of you. What happened?

[Pop Trash]

I like this younger version of you. What happened?

I traded Godard for Malick.

[Pop Trash]

Not to mention I probably like Alain Resnais and Chris Marker more at this point than Godard.

[Boner M]

Not to mention I probably like Alain Resnais and Chris Marker more at this point than Godard.
Me too.

[Pop Trash]

For the record I certainly still like a lot of 60s Godard stuff. I'm just not as enamored with the "good looking hipsters getting their kicks then dying young" thing as I used to be.

[Spinal]

God, this 'Bergman isn't cinematic' argument just pains me to no end. His films are beautiful to look at, not just to listen to. His exploration of human psychology and misery and doubt is unparalleled. He is a master and undoubtedly one of the most important figures in 20th century film.

[Spinal]

Also, I look forward to discussing Bergman more when we get to the Godard thread.

[Raiders]

God, this 'Bergman isn't cinematic' argument just pains me to no end. His films are beautiful to look at, not just to listen to. His exploration of human psychology and misery and doubt is unparalleled. He is a master and undoubtedly one of the most important figures in 20th century film.

Alrighty. I'll just leave it to rest then. In the meantime, I will search for your opinion on Bresson...

[Spinal]

Alrighty. I'll just leave it to rest then. In the meantime, I will search for your opinion on Bresson...

My issue with Bresson boils down to one thing: his philosophy on (non) acting.

[Pop Trash]

My issue with Bresson boils down to one thing: his philosophy on (non) acting.

Right. As someone who was involved in theater from the age of 10 up until college, this bothered me a bit too.

[Pop Trash]

Also, I look forward to discussing Bergman more when we get to the Godard thread.

:lol:

[Raiders]

My issue with Bresson boils down to one thing: his philosophy on (non) acting.

Not really my point. You seem to be rather dogmatic in regards to the greatness of Bergman as a director. I was just coming back with another revered filmmaker where people, such as yourself, hold a position I disagree with. Your post struck me as silly, as if people weren't allowed to hold a position different from yours.

[Spinal]

My posts are silly most of the time. It's kind of my thing.

[Raiders]

My posts are silly most of the time. It's kind of my thing.

I don't think this is true and it pains me to no end. Undoubtedly you are one of the most important figures in Match-Cut history.

[Izzy Black]

God, this 'Bergman isn't cinematic' argument just pains me to no end. His films are beautiful to look at, not just to listen to. His exploration of human psychology and misery and doubt is unparalleled. He is a master and undoubtedly one of the most important figures in 20th century film.

I concede that Nykvist is a great cinematographer and that many of his films are visually expressive. It's not really that Bergman isn't cinematic. It's more that he's not cinematic enough (for my liking), or cinematic in a particular kind of way, namely in a way where the drama doesn't come first and the aesthetic is a means to that end. Bergman is a very talented filmmaker and an important auteur. I just don't think his esteem and reputation quite match or entirely reflect the quality of his output.

[Spinal]

I concede that Nykvist is a great cinematographer and that many of his films are visually expressive. It's not really that Bergman isn't cinematic. It's more that he's not cinematic enough (for my liking), or cinematic in a particular kind of way, namely in a way where the drama doesn't come first and the aesthetic is a means to that end. Bergman is a very talented filmmaker and an important auteur. I just don't think his esteem and reputation quite match or entirely reflect the quality of his output.

I feel that the drama should come first and that aesthetic is just a means to that end. So that explains our disagreement.

[Irish]

I feel that the drama should come first and that aesthetic is just a means to that end.

Say this more often, and in bigger, bolder type.

[Izzy Black]

I feel that the drama should come first and that aesthetic is just a means to that end. So that explains our disagreement.

I guess. It's not that the strategy is wrong, or bad, it's just that when drama is all you've got going for your film, then it kind of maxes out its potential aesthetically. Antonioni, for (an obnoxiously familiar) instance, isn't about drama at all. There's barely any monologue, barely any dramatic conflict, barely any meaningful dialogue or heavy handed character interactions. He speaks in a language of cinematic gestures and ideas, rather than narrative or scripted points and situations. These possibilities are rather limited for Bergman, and I think, limit him as a filmmaker. Not because he's a dramatist, but because, in my view, he rarely rises above drama (nor did it seem that he much wanted to).

[Raiders]

Say this more often, and in bigger, bolder type.

And I'll say the opposite equally as often, and in Comic Sans, italic, 48 pt. font.

[Bosco B Thug]

Israfel might like The Silence. Bergman shuts his characters up for a predominance of it, apropos to the zinger of a title. Still pretty turgid, though.

[Irish]

And I'll say the opposite equally as often, and in Comic Sans, italic, 48 pt. font.

I was fully prepared to hate you for this, but the comics sans bit made me laugh. :P

Also: SPINEZ4LIFE

[Spinal]

And I'll say the opposite equally as often, and in Comic Sans, italic, 48 pt. font.

:lol:

[Spinal]

I guess. It's not that the strategy is wrong, or bad, it's just that when drama is all you've got going for your film, then it kind of maxes out its potential aesthetically. Antonioni, for (an obnoxiously familiar) instance, isn't about drama at all. There's barely any monologue, barely any dramatic conflict, barely any meaningful dialogue or heavy handed character interactions. He speaks in a language of cinematic gestures and ideas, rather than narrative or scripted points and situations. These possibilities are rather limited for Bergman, and I think, limit him as a filmmaker. Not because he's a dramatist, but because, in my view, he rarely rises above drama (nor did it seem that he much wanted to).

Well, you could as easily reverse this, right?


I guess. It's not that the strategy is wrong, or bad, it's just that when cinematic gesture is all you've got going for your film, then it kind of maxes out its potential dramatically. Bergman, for (an obnoxiously familiar) instance, isn't about cinematic gesture at all. There's rich monologues, dramatic conflict, meaningful dialogue and fully realized character interactions. He speaks in a language of narrative, situations and Swedish, rather than cinematic gesture or impenetrable ideas. These possibilities are rather limited for Antonioni (especially since he's not Swedish), and I think, limit him as a filmmaker. Not because he isn't a dramatist, but because, in my view, he rarely aspires to drama (nor did it seem that he much wanted to).

Fortunately, we don't have to choose and we can enjoy both Winter Light and L'avventura if we like. Both are great.

[Derek]

He speaks in a language of narrative, situations and Swedish

:lol:

[Chac Mool]

I probably can't list five (shame! shame!) and I don't have a Youtube link for the one I want to mention, but...

The monologue scene in Face to Face, with Liv Ullmann baring her soul to an implacable camera, is maybe my favorite bit of acting in any movie, anywhere.