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Ezee E
09-16-2011, 08:52 PM
With the release of DC's new 52, there's a new interest to comics that I haven't seen in well over a decade.

I, myself, have gotten back into comics this way.

I've also downloaded them. While you can't appreciate the large layouts of Batwoman, I do like the focuses on panels, in which a small panel in a book can occupy a full screen without loss of detail.

DISCUSS.

Sven
09-18-2011, 03:06 AM
A tip of the hat for creating this thread.

I am finding that thus far, halfway there, the books on a whole have been of surprising quality. Only a handful of nays and just a few more shrugs, these have been largely defensible individual works of comic narrative, if not quite art in most cases. The actual universe narrative doesn't make any sense, but it never has, and I have a hard time caring about that anyway. There's a lot of dynamism and talent on display, and a few great stories. And though little has been radical or earth-shattering, it's more comics and that's a good thing, and people are reading them and that's a good thing. Hopefully it is more than a flash in the pan.

Ezee E
09-18-2011, 06:48 AM
A tip of the hat for creating this thread.

I am finding that thus far, halfway there, the books on a whole have been of surprising quality. Only a handful of nays and just a few more shrugs, these have been largely defensible individual works of comic narrative, if not quite art in most cases. The actual universe narrative doesn't make any sense, but it never has, and I have a hard time caring about that anyway. There's a lot of dynamism and talent on display, and a few great stories. And though little has been radical or earth-shattering, it's more comics and that's a good thing, and people are reading them and that's a good thing. Hopefully it is more than a flash in the pan.
It's certainly created a renewed curiosity in the comics themselves amongst people (myself included) that haven't read comics in well over ten years. So long as they don't have crossovers in which you have to get 6-7 issues, I'm fine.

So far...

Yays (Definitely continue to get):
Detective Comics
Action Comics
Batgirl
Batwoman
Animal Man (biggest surprise)

Maybes:
Swamp Thing

No's:
Men of War
Batman and Robin
Suicide Squad


Next week, probably just Batman and Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman has the neatest looking art direction that I've seen thus far. Getting it for that reason alone. The Flash has a similar appeal.

I find it funny on twitter that some people are confused about the timelines. I don't really care about it at all, enjoying them as their own stories.

ledfloyd
09-18-2011, 03:03 PM
i was skeptical when the relaunch was announced, but at this point there are 5 issue #2s i want to read (action, animal man, swamp thing, batwoman and demon knights (and MAYBE batgirl)) which is like 3 or 4 more DC books than i was reading previously. and 5 of the 10 i've read i am interested enough to pick up another issue. so that's something.

Sven
09-19-2011, 05:42 AM
My responses thus far:

Excellent
Action Comics
Swamp Thing
Red Lanterns
Demon Knights
Batwoman

Real good
Men of War
Detective Comics
Stormwatch
Batgirl
Suicide Squad
Green Lantern

Good
Justice League
Hawk and Dove
OMAC
Static Shock
Resurrection Man
Mister Terrific
Deathstroke
Grifter

Poor
Green Arrow
Animal Man
Batwing
Batman and Robin
Frankenstein

Awful
Justice League International
Superboy
Legion Lost

Sven
09-19-2011, 05:50 AM
Seeing the preview for the Green Lantern Corps made me realize how frustrated I'm getting with establishing panels, though. It's like that damn fourth Harry Potter movie that couldn't introduce a new location with anything other than a sweeping CG establishing shot.

number8
09-19-2011, 02:12 PM
Suicide Squad was one of my favorite series of all time. I was sad that it was cancelled, but I was happy that it had a lengthy run while staying top quality. Then along came Secret Six and while it was its own series, it paid plenty of homage to and respected Suicide Squad a great deal. It quickly became my new favorite series.

And then they cancelled Secret Six so they could poach the roster and start up a new Suicide Squad series that reads like an asshole's loose hair. :sad:

Acapelli
09-19-2011, 02:34 PM
really not much else you can expect from a suicide squad book by adam glass, especially if you read his flashpoint tie-in "legion of doom"

what a crummy book

number8
09-19-2011, 02:47 PM
Also, I might have liked Red Lanterns more if it wasn't Ed Benes drawing it. Not only is that guy's art the boring bastard child of Jim Lee and Michael Turner, but I also think the really internal and emo narrative would have benefited from an artist who's less... "traditional" superhero art. Like a Ben Templesmith or Dave McKean or Sam Keith or someone like that.

Sven
09-19-2011, 02:49 PM
The only offense at SS I see is the Waller aspect. I don't know what the objections are otherwise. I thought it was terrifically structured to capture tone and introduce characters. One of the few new books that reads confidently as a single issue, too. Care to offer any more details on the negative response?

Sven
09-19-2011, 03:10 PM
Like a Ben Templesmith or Dave McKean or Sam Keith or someone like that.

I'm certainly no great fan of Benes (Bleez's ass shots I find particularly eye roll worthy), but I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions. When Atrocitus begins his flashback inner monologue, I agree that perhaps one of those illustrators would have been interesting. However, I could not see any of those guys tackling the opening satisfactorily, an opening which I think aligns the tone of the book to allow for a hopeful degree of whimsy. The first scene reads like classic Bad Company-era Milligan. Come to think of it, Brett Ewins would have been an amazing choice, though I don't even know if he's still around.

And at the same time, I'm fascinated by the choice of Benes. When Atrocitus is doused in the blood of a walking, popping vegetable pod, spurring and deepening his rage-filled soliloquy, to see such oddness illustrated with the same hatch-lines and cloudy textures that define conventional superhero illustration creates, what is to my mind, an aesthetic space that parallels Milligan's plain, poetic turns of phrase.

Acapelli
09-19-2011, 03:18 PM
haven't read ss, but legion of doom was basically just torture porn. there was literally no point to the book besides glass trying to figure out the most ridiculous ways to kill b-list dc characters

and it sounds like that's what suicide squad will basically be. no thanks

number8
09-19-2011, 10:07 PM
Miguel Sepulvuda's cover for STORMWATCH #4 is very Burnham. Me like.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3295/stormwcv402.jpg

Sven
09-19-2011, 10:57 PM
I never would've even guessed that was Sepulveda.

Acapelli
09-20-2011, 10:29 PM
i think that is burnham

look at the street sign

number8
09-20-2011, 10:33 PM
Doh. I think I figured out how people got confused, given the solicits. That's the variant cover. Sepulvuda does the regular covers and Burnham is doing variants.

This is Burnham's cover for #1. I wish I'd gotten this one.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2011/08/STORM_Cv1_asdjfhasd9fasd9f870a s.jpg

Ezee E
09-20-2011, 11:46 PM
I guess there's an easter egg of some woman in a red hood in all the issues.

dreamdead
09-21-2011, 06:04 PM
Well, I think I'll try Wonder Woman (for Azzarello), Batman (for Snyder), and maybe Catwoman (curiosity, not because I feel the creators to be anything special) this week...

Sven
09-21-2011, 08:00 PM
I guess there's an easter egg of some woman in a red hood in all the issues.

Yeah, she reset the world or something in Flashpoint 5. I think her presence is there to acknowledge the reset as an internal narrative choice rather than an exegetic marketing event. Or maybe she is an instrument of potential backpeddling. I doubt they'll do much with her across the board in further issues, but I dunno. It's distracting.

number8
09-21-2011, 08:15 PM
I really think she's supposed to be their out. They added her in at the last minute (penciled/inked pages of the issues didn't have her, she appears to be photoshopped in after they decided to have that woman in Flashpoint 5) so whenever they want to undo any of the changes that don't work, they can just use her.

Sven
09-22-2011, 12:18 AM
New 52 readings:

Red Hood and the Outlaws - A more credible read than Lobdell's Superboy, thanks largely to Rocafort's efficient sequencing (even if some of his character figures could use some polish), but the dialogue is still a lurching terror, and the fantasy of Starfire, loose hips and dreamlike boobs and all, is pretty laughable. The loosey-goosey attitude is welcome, though. **1/2

Supergirl - This is barfy. Takes about twenty seconds to digest, lazy writing that banks on large panels of consequence-free action, destroying focus, replacing time, space, and character cohesion with randomly scattered robot debris. The slew of colorful sound effect texts creates an almost intriguing visual reason to look at a few pages of this otherwise unnecessary book. *

Nightwing - Eddy Barrows can draw single panels well enough, but his action sequences (nice opening subway scene aside) are illogical, his general sense of spatial orientation needs tuning. And I think Higgins, with this and Death Stroke, may be too infatuated with the concept of badassery. **

Blue Beetle - Ig Guara draws the hell out of this thing, and Bedard's script quickly and neatly introduces the fantastic spectrum of the narrative playing field. I hope the series veers toward the more outer-spacey milieu, as Guara's knack is clearly one for rendering creaturebeasts. ***

Legion of Super-Heroes - This book introduces about twenty characters, all of whom appear to have a significant level of involvement with the rote proceedings. Much too much to keep in mind. I've never read any Legion books, so as an introduction, I can confidently say that neither this or Legion Lost are sensible books for Legion virgins. Portela's artwork is a'ight, though. **

Catwoman - Delightfully, unapologetically trashy. March's unreal proportions still manage to entice given the healthily free-spirited context. Best is the subtle expressiveness of the faces and pheromone drenched creased leather of the final few pages. ***

Birds of Prey - Like Supergirl, it is a comic of few words, but this one has slightly more at stake. Still, the substance here is minimal. Starling's self-awareness makes for a refreshing trait, but Canary is basically a cipher. A good example of poor sequential decompression, reading like the first page of a chapter rather than the first chapter of a story. One thing I've noticed with several of these new books is a disregard for developing interesting antagonists. **

Captain Atom - I had no idea that Freddie Williams II could be this excellent. His inks achieve a stark, dramatic effect and his pencilling on Atom himself, complemented exceptionally by the always reliable Villarrubia, give the character a proper extraworldly feel. And the crazy stuff, monsters, atomic microscans, volcanic meltdowns, I couldn't be more excited by. The story is, aside from a scene or two of some rote exposition, a great showcase vehicle that leaves more than a trace of promise for a satisfyingly nuclear scale. ****

Batman - I like when stories are as much about places and locations as they are about characters and events. Snyder sets a clear design to wrangle with the concept of Gotham, and has already thrown a few exciting wrenches in the gears. Capullo's squarish Batman, despite its simplicity, is immediately signature. ***1/2

Wonder Woman - An admitted letdown. I'm confused about the key and the teleporting and the magic. And I think Chiang's action lines are tacky, even if his figures are impressive. And Wonder Woman kills centaurs. No sense for why anything matters. Yet another comic to feature a boring establishing shot of a city skyline, and definitely the lesser of the new 52 to feature post-possession disintegration. The best would be Demon Knights. **

Green Lantern Corps - Solid introduction that has the same rhythm and scope of a blockbuster. Pasarin's textures are as impressive as his sense of dimension, and Tomasi pitches the tone between lightheartedness and a-little-too-violent, a bankable window for sure. ***

DC Universe Presents: Deadman - I don't understand the last page, which was a nagging disruption from the reverie on which the book's laden approach to death, emptiness, and immediacy set me. I read it twice because I realized that I was barely aware of the fantastic artwork and its effective supplementation of Jenkins's emotional text. I do wish Chang would vary Boston's facial expressions a bit. ****

Ezee E
09-22-2011, 01:06 AM
Sven, what did you think of the "establishing shots" in Batman? Pretty damn impressive to me.

It's definitely got the best "Gotham" feel.

Sven
09-22-2011, 01:38 AM
Sven, what did you think of the "establishing shots" in Batman? Pretty damn impressive to me.

It's definitely got the best "Gotham" feel.

Oh, absolutely love those. Since it feels like Snyder is taking on Gotham specifically, it was only appropriate to dwell on the cityscape. But a whole bunch of these stories feel like they have to, in the most generic way, establish location first thing. Reading them all, the formula involved in writing and drawing these books has never been clearer to me.

Acapelli
09-22-2011, 01:54 AM
freddie williams art makes me barf

Sven
09-22-2011, 02:09 AM
freddie williams art makes me barf

Normally I agree with you. But have you seen pages from Captain Atom? It's unlike anything I've seen of his, and I like it a lot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/iosos/Comic%20scans/atom1.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/iosos/Comic%20scans/atom2.jpg

Acapelli
09-22-2011, 03:56 AM
looks like he's started using an ink wash, ala scott kolins

just not a fan at all of his stylized art

Ezee E
09-22-2011, 07:45 AM
Is Captain Atom basically the one guy from the Watchmen?

number8
09-22-2011, 01:42 PM
Is Captain Atom basically the one guy from the Watchmen?

Doc Manhattan was created when Moore wasn't allowed to use Captain Atom by DC. All of the Watchmen characters are thinly-veiled analogues to existing DC characters.

number8
09-22-2011, 02:02 PM
Christ, the sex scene in Catwoman was trashy. I'm not sure how I feel about Selina not knowing that Batman is Bruce anymore. That fucks up their wonderful time in Batman Inc, and me no gusta.

megladon8
09-22-2011, 02:09 PM
I kind of love that art. Colour palette is gorgeous.

bac0n
09-22-2011, 02:52 PM
picked up DC Presents Deadman & GL Corps last night. Can't wait to read 'em.

Ezee E
09-22-2011, 03:54 PM
So, I just did Batman and Wonder Woman this week.

Wonder Woman is quite the disappointment in all ways. The cover is pretty awesome, but the art inside seems to stray from that, and it's a pretty corny story. I'll be staying away from that one.

There's 4-6 that I want next week.

megladon8
09-23-2011, 04:08 PM
Hmm...gotta say I dug "Wonder Woman" quite a bit.

megladon8
09-23-2011, 05:36 PM
But yikes, "Catwoman" was awful.

Sven
09-26-2011, 06:52 PM
My store is mysteriously burdened with Batwoman overstock. Why so few are buying this one, a rare title featuring quality work directly proportional to commercial hype and criticial favor, is a mystery.

Ezee E
09-26-2011, 07:33 PM
My store is mysteriously burdened with Batwoman overstock. Why so few are buying this one, a rare title featuring quality work directly proportional to commercial hype and criticial favor, is a mystery.
Never knew there was a Batwoman until these came out. The title itself sounds kinda dumb. For newcomers, myself included, we'll probably go straight to the titles that we recognize.

Blue Beetle, Grifter, Demon Wars....... Waiting.

bac0n
09-27-2011, 03:09 AM
Wow, first issue of DC Presents was pretty good! Gonna have to add it to the pull list methinks.

sevenarts
09-27-2011, 11:29 AM
My store is mysteriously burdened with Batwoman overstock. Why so few are buying this one, a rare title featuring quality work directly proportional to commercial hype and criticial favor, is a mystery.

That's really sad to hear. It's one of the best titles in the whole relaunch. It baffles me that people are still sleeping on this book since the Detective Comics run was so highly acclaimed and its return has been so anticipated by anyone who read those Rucka/Williams issues.

number8
09-27-2011, 01:56 PM
You know what's bugging me? I feel like Batman and Detective should be reversed.

Sven
09-27-2011, 05:36 PM
That's really sad to hear. It's one of the best titles in the whole relaunch.

Agreed.

Also, welcome aboard!

sevenarts
09-27-2011, 05:47 PM
Agreed.

Also, welcome aboard!

Thanks! I was reading through the comics discussion here and decided to join. The DC relaunch has got me reading more comics on a weekly basis than ever before, and I'm itching to talk about them all.

Sven
09-27-2011, 06:04 PM
The DC relaunch has got me reading more comics on a weekly basis than ever before, and I'm itching to talk about them all.

Rad. Which have been your favorites? Surprises? Disappointments?

If you've been reading my blurbs, you pretty much know my positions, but to condense, the biggest surprises for me so far have been Captain Atom, which I love more every time I look at it, and Suicide Squad, the bashing it's been given both warranted and overkill (apt given the book's nature, I guess), but I thought it was structured terrifically to introduce character, tone, and style, even if it was light on plot. I also dug Men of War.

Biggest disappointments have been Wonder Woman, which hopefully will become clearer with more issues, and Batman and Robin, which looked nice, but could not stir me. I also wanted to like JLI, but I just could not.

megladon8
09-27-2011, 06:08 PM
You know what's bugging me? I feel like Batman and Detective should be reversed.


How so? Not sure what you mean here.

sevenarts
09-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Rad. Which have been your favorites? Surprises? Disappointments?

My favorites so far have been Animal Man, Wonder Woman, and Batwoman, all three of those are just great, inventive, and a ton of fun. I've seen a few people here and elsewhere express disappointment with Wonder Woman and just cannot get that at all, that was one I was looking forward to based on the creative team and it exceeded my (high) expectations. It's a good balance of horror with a more light-hearted action tone, and I can't wait for more.

Biggest surprise so far was Demon Knights - I knew nothing about it and thought Paul Cornell's Stormwatch was only OK, but this was really great. I was also surprised to find that Catwoman and Green Lantern Corps, neither of which I thought would be any good, were actually pretty fun.

Biggest disappointment was Red Lanterns, not because I really thought it would be good but because I hoped it would be since Peter Milligan is one of my favorites. I'm hoping his Justice League Dark is better than that. (Though you liked it, right?)

megladon8
09-27-2011, 07:04 PM
For me, "Batwoman", "Swamp Thing" and "Batman" have been the most impressive titles so far.

Can't wait to get my hands on "Justice League Dark".

megladon8
09-27-2011, 07:06 PM
By the way, sevenarts, a big welcome to you!

Our comic talk can be sparse because there are only a handful of us on this forum who are really "in to" them, so it's great to see another addition to the conversation!

Sven
09-27-2011, 07:09 PM
Biggest disappointment was Red Lanterns, not because I really thought it would be good but because I hoped it would be since Peter Milligan is one of my favorites. I'm hoping his Justice League Dark is better than that. (Though you liked it, right?)

Oh, absolutely loved it. I've been tickling with the idea of writing a piece called "Why Red Lanterns is good comics," but my priorities right now are not such that I could expend the effort such an endeavor deserves. But in short, I think it is functionally brilliant as an opening chapter, establishing a bold emotional spectrum tying pain and delirious anger to a promising scope of a violent sci-fi morality parable, all the while flowing like a Milligan comic, shifting perspective but tying things together with suggestive, minimal exposition. Probably my favorite aspect relates to the sequence with the two brothers: which brother is going to become the red lantern when the nebulous feelings of rage, disappointment, and loss are equal (though differently directed) in both?

One of these times, I'll develop my thoughts into something more coherent. But I'm sure JLD will be excellent.

Ezee E
09-27-2011, 10:23 PM
Tomorrow's purchases:
All-Star Western
Dark Knight
Flash

Savage Hawkman and Voodoo I'm curious about.

ledfloyd
09-27-2011, 10:29 PM
justice league dark and all-star western are the only two i intend to read this week. unless something else gets really good buzz.

number8
09-28-2011, 04:36 PM
Hahaha, the ending of The Dark Knight #1 is epicly stupid. Glad I'm not picking that shit up.

Ezee E
09-28-2011, 04:48 PM
Hahaha, the ending of The Dark Knight #1 is epicly stupid. Glad I'm not picking that shit up.
Good to know.......

number8
09-28-2011, 04:52 PM
For those who want to be spoiled:

http://oi55.tinypic.com/2jd10g2.jpg

Ezee E
09-28-2011, 04:56 PM
Yeah.... DEFINITELY not getting that one.

Hahaha.

Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2011, 05:13 PM
Okay, so I'm going to jump on board with a few of these. I have a couple questions that hopefully someone can help with.

First, what are some good titles that my ten-year-old could read as well?

Second, where do I download the digital titles? I went to DC's website and don't see a place to purchase the comics.

Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Okay, so I'm going to jump on board with a few of these. I have a couple questions that hopefully someone can help with.

First, what are some good titles that my ten-year-old could read as well?

Second, where do I download the digital titles? I went to DC's website and don't see a place to purchase the comics.

Nevermind on that second question. Someone please post a facepalm picture to add to my shame. I deserve it.

I'd still like opinions on the first question. I won't take anyone's word as fact, but I can grab the issue and see if I agree.

number8
09-28-2011, 06:14 PM
For a ten year old? Hmm, oy, that's tough. The best titles are probably not that appropriate. Swamp Thing has nothing objectionable, but since these are all just one issues so far, there's no telling about future issues.

number8
09-28-2011, 06:15 PM
Action Comics is your best bet, I think.

megladon8
09-28-2011, 06:24 PM
Nevermind on that second question. Someone please post a facepalm picture to add to my shame. I deserve it.

I'd still like opinions on the first question. I won't take anyone's word as fact, but I can grab the issue and see if I agree.


A lot of it depends on what you're comfortable with showing your ten-year-old. I know when I was 10 I didn't really have many "limits" put on me by my parents - I was watching horror films and that. If that's not the same for your son, here's a brief bit about the ones I've read so far...


I would stay away from both of the "Batman" titles ("Batman" and "Detective Comics") at this point. Very violent and gruesome. I mean, I enjoyed them both, but they have the most disturbing images (other than "Swamp Thing") that I've seen yet in the new 52.

"Catwoman" has a pretty raunchy sex scene so I'd say that's out, too. It's also just not very good.

"Swamp Thing" is really cool, one of my faves of the bunch, but it has a pretty gruesome set of deaths at the end of the book.

"Batwoman" may very well be the best of the books I've read, and nothing there is inappropriate for a 10 year methinks. Typical comic book "beating up the bad guys" type of violence, no sex, and it has GORGEOUS artwork.

"Frankenstein: Agent of S.H.A.D.E." is a very simplistic monsters-fighting-bigger-monsters comic that I could see a 10 year old (and the 10 year old still alive in me :)) having a lot of fun with. It's basically a "Hellboy" type of concept, but substitute Hellboy, Abe Sapien, et al for the monsters of the Universal horror films (modernized designs of them, of course).

"Justice League" is pretty much mediocre across the board, but nothing about it is offensive in any way. Most of it is the story of Batman and Green Lantern first meeting. I'm not a fan of Jim Lee's art, and while I am one of the few Geoff Johns fans on this board, his writing here was bland as bland can be. Appropriate for a 10 year old? Absolutely. But you could also get something much better, that both of you would enjoy.

"Action Comics" seems like the beginning of an interesting new take on the Superman universe, but I just feel like I have no clue where it's going. I honestly found this first issue a tad bland, a few changes of characterization in Supes and Luthor not making up for what I felt to be a very "been there, done that" Superman vs. Lex Luthor story. Perhaps my general boredom with Lex Luthor in general has me feeling a tad biased.

"Batgirl" was very cool. Not overly violent, no sex or bad language. It does deal with a few mature themes, but (again, just speaking from my experience as a 10 year old) nothing I would see as too much for your son. Really caught me by surprise, this one.

"Wonder Woman" was also a lot of cool, supernatural fun. Again, none of the violence was more than usual for a comic book (some blood not withstanding), and the other-worldly, mystical story seems like something that would really appeal to a young mind. Good writing, really nice art. I dug it.


Unfortunately, that's all I've read of the 52 so far. But I hope that gives you a couple of ideas to check out.

sevenarts
09-28-2011, 06:25 PM
As number8 says, a lot of the best titles (Animal Man, Wonder Woman, Batman) have some gore and horror elements that might make them bad choices for little kids.

Action Comics is pretty kid-friendly (and lots of fun in general). Frankenstein is pretty cartoony and I think would be safe for kids. Demon Knights, Green Lantern and OMAC are other good choices.

I wouldn't rob yourself of the pleasure of reading Animal Man, Wonder Woman and Batman for yourself, though. They're great books even if you can't necessarily read them with your kid.

Ezee E
09-28-2011, 07:10 PM
I don't think any of the 52 titles are really kid appropriate.

But on the digital site, you can purchase anything DC. I'm sure you can do some for you, some for the kids type of deal.

Let me know what you think of the digital purchasing. I think I'm the only one reading them that way here. I'm indifferent, but I'd rather not issues or waste paper.

Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Thanks to everyone. I'll definitely be reading some titles for myself as well as for my son, though money and free time is certainly a factor. I won't be able to read as many as I would like. I appreciate the opinions. He's a smart kid, and has read things like All Star Superman and a Spider-man title or two. I don't mind him seeing noble violence or casual intimacy, but would like to avoid excessive gore or sex. I'll give them a once-over and pass on anything I think he can handle.

Winston*
09-28-2011, 07:44 PM
I don't mind him seeing... casual intimacy
But its not okay if the characters are married? What are you teaching your son KF?

megladon8
09-28-2011, 07:46 PM
If you want to just know what the best of the new 52 have been so far, regardless of content, I'd say you have to check out:

Batwoman
Swamp Thing
Batgirl
Action Comics
Batman

bac0n
09-28-2011, 07:47 PM
I would second #8 on Action Comics. Also, the latest run of The Flash was pretty PG, so you might wanna check out Flash #1 when it comes out, which I think is today.

ledfloyd
09-28-2011, 07:54 PM
of the titles i've read i'd have to agree action comics is probably your best bet.

number8
09-28-2011, 08:00 PM
IF YOU DON'T WANT YOUR CHILD TO GROW UP A POOR PEOPLE-LOVING SOCIALIST, THAT IS.

sevenarts
09-28-2011, 08:09 PM
I would second #8 on Action Comics. Also, the latest run of The Flash was pretty PG, so you might wanna check out Flash #1 when it comes out, which I think is today.


I just read the new Flash #1, and not only is it kid-friendly, it's great fun. This'll be one of the best from this week, for sure.

Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2011, 08:25 PM
But its not okay if the characters are married? What are you teaching your son KF?

I'm not trying to raise a bitch, Winston*. The kid needs to know how to make waves early and often.

Ezee E
09-28-2011, 09:32 PM
Maybe I'm pulling a KF, but I can't find new issues on Marvel's digital library. It's pretty hard to navigate. I just want to try out the new Spider-Man series... But instead it pulls up everything in a jumbled mess.

Forget it.

dreamdead
09-28-2011, 10:00 PM
Justice League Dark #1 juggles a lot of characters, enough that some of them seem only tangential to the forming group itself, but I'm hopeful enough in the concept that I'll stick around a bit more. The art is occasionally so reference-based that it takes me out of the narrative. In general, though, I think Milligan is just trying to fit too much together here (i.e. The Justice League stuff feels superfluous right now to our main characters in such a small primer)

Circled back and got Demon Knights #1 as well. Despite a dumbass cover, which screams "AVOID!" like nothing else, the story is light-hearted and amusing, though I'm unsure if I only want that from a monthly comic. I kinda want to see what happens with the dragons, so that could be the decider.

Gonna talk with Sarah over the weekend and assess what's worth it to keep following, beyond Batwoman.

Sven
09-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Last of the new ones, thank God:

Teen Titans - *1/2
The Savage Hawkman - *1/2
Voodoo - *1/2
I, Vampire - ***
Black Hawks - *1/2
New Guardians - **1/2
Fury of Firestorm - **
Aquaman - ***1/2
The Flash - **
All Star Western - ***
Batman: The Dark Knight - *1/2
Superman - ****
Justice League Dark - ***1/2

Definitely weak week. The biggest surprise was Aquaman, biggest disappointment was The Flash.

megladon8
09-28-2011, 11:02 PM
Sven, did you buy every single issue of the new 52?

And do you have every one on your pull list?

Sven
09-29-2011, 12:05 AM
Sven, did you buy every single issue of the new 52?

And do you have every one on your pull list?

I work at a comic shop, so I did pick them all up at a discount. I figured I would have this be the first real intensive comics event into which I would plunge completely. It was a fascinating experience, even when the titles were no good.

And no, I have only put the ones I like on my pull list.

megladon8
09-29-2011, 12:08 AM
Oh, OK I didn't know that you work at a comic shop. That certainly explains it :)

I can't wait to get more of the titles.

Ezee E
09-29-2011, 12:09 AM
So what are you going to stick with?

Sven
09-29-2011, 01:31 AM
So what are you going to stick with?

Lesse. Definites:

Justice League Dark
OMAC
Action Comics
Stormwatch
Demon Knights
Captain Atom
Red Lanterns

Maybe:

Suicide Squad
Superman
Swamp Thing
Men of War
Batwoman
Batman
DC Universe Presents: Deadman

I recognize the wonkiness of a definite OMAC and a maybe Superman given my prospective ratings. But believe it, baby.

ledfloyd
09-29-2011, 02:17 AM
i was underwhelmed by justice league dark, but i actually really enjoyed all-star western. i like how it plays off the gates of gotham, the return of bruce wayne and gotham by gaslight. i've never read a jonah hex book before, but i dug it. also, the art was gorgeous.

issue #2s i intend to read.

Action Comics
Animal Man
Batman
Batwoman
Demon Knights
Swamp Thing

and i'll probably give Wonder Woman and Justice League Dark another shot more out of allegiance to the creators than the strength of the #1s. i thought Batgirl and All-Star Western were enjoyable but i'm not sure i will bother keeping up with them month to month. Justice League, Detective Comics and Frankenstein just didn't do anything for me. i think that covers everything i've read.

megladon8
09-29-2011, 02:32 AM
I love George Perez.

Kurosawa Fan
09-29-2011, 03:54 AM
Hey E, if I download the digital copies from DC's website, is it stored on my HD, or does it just give me access to it on their website? Would I be able to transfer the comic to another computer?

Ezee E
09-29-2011, 05:23 AM
Hey E, if I download the digital copies from DC's website, is it stored on my HD, or does it just give me access to it on their website? Would I be able to transfer the comic to another computer?
As far as I've figured, you can only get it by logging into the website. I haven't tried saving it to my own computer yet.

Ezee E
09-29-2011, 05:28 AM
As far as I've figured, you can only get it by logging into the website. I haven't tried saving it to my own computer yet.
With that... I'm really glad 8 spoiled that awful look of Dark Knight, cause I got a comic I wouldn't have otherwise...

All-Star Western - might be my favorite out of the whole "New 52." Exactly what I want out of a comic. A story that doesn't mind just throwing characters into a new situation instead of showing how they got their powers, etc. Good artwork, and nothing cheesy or over the top in the panels. Yeah. I dug this a ton.

Superman - As mentioned, not a big Superman fan. This wasn't something I was intending on getting, but with Dark Knight out of the way, I was poised for something. Sven's 4-star rating caught my eye, and boy, this was actually quite good too. An advanced Superman story, so it felt like you were brought right in, and a hell of a way to start. Damn.

Flash - Booooo... Who cares.

Ezee E
09-29-2011, 05:32 AM
With that... I'm really glad 8 spoiled that awful look of Dark Knight, cause I got a comic I wouldn't have otherwise...

All-Star Western - might be my favorite out of the whole "New 52." Exactly what I want out of a comic. A story that doesn't mind just throwing characters into a new situation instead of showing how they got their powers, etc. Good artwork, and nothing cheesy or over the top in the panels. Yeah. I dug this a ton.

Superman - As mentioned, not a big Superman fan. This wasn't something I was intending on getting, but with Dark Knight out of the way, I was poised for something. Sven's 4-star rating caught my eye, and boy, this was actually quite good too. An advanced Superman story, so it felt like you were brought right in, and a hell of a way to start. Damn.

Flash - Booooo... Who cares.
So....

STICKING WITH:
Action Comics
Detective Comics
Animal Man
Superman
All-Star Western
Batman
Batwoman
Batgirl

MAYBE....:
Swamp Thing

EW...:
Suicide Squad
Men of War
Flash
Batman & Robin
Wonder Woman

Anything I should check out last minute?

number8
09-29-2011, 12:24 PM
The biggest surprise was Aquaman

Not I, Vampire? People are calling it the sleeper hit of the whole relaunch, and you seem to think it's good, too.

sevenarts
09-29-2011, 12:32 PM
EW...:
Flash
Wonder Woman

This is just crazy talk, those are 2 of the most fun issues out of the whole relaunch. Otherwise, out of my favorites you're missing Demon Knights and Justice League Dark.

I've been posting reviews of all the New 52 titles and I've done the last week now:
http://thinkinginpanels.blogspot.com/2011/09/dcs-new-52-week-4-september-28-2011.html

number8
09-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Not interested in Teen Titans because Lobdell = meh, but ha, I love the idea of Tim Drake being behind wikileaks.

Sven
09-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Not I, Vampire? People are calling it the sleeper hit of the whole relaunch, and you seem to think it's good, too.

Yeah, on further consideration, I think higher of it. It was kind of a difficult read. Temporally jumbled story with projected dialogue at the service of a vampire romance. My brain was seriously fighting it, but two-thirds of the way through, it all started clicking and understanding, as well as emotion and good will, began to cascade through me. "This is a good book."

So yeah, you're probably right that it was a bigger surprise.

number8
09-29-2011, 03:05 PM
I think my problem with Aquaman is that it's too much of an apologia. Johns basically crammed every criticism anyone can have about Aquaman and actively refutes them. It came across as desperate to me.

"Talking to fish is stupid."
"NO I DON'T TALK TO FISH FISH ARE STUPID I TELL THEM WHAT TO DO."

"You know, nobody thinks you're cool."
"YEAH WELL I'M STILL HERE HELPING PEOPLE ANYWAY. DO YOU FEEL GUILTY NOW?"

Meh. I do admit, though, that it was surprisingly funny and fast for a Johns book. He's usually too stoic to enjoy.

sevenarts
09-29-2011, 04:20 PM
I agree with number8 on Aquaman. It really hammers the Aquaman-is-a-punchline thing home, and all Aquaman himself does is glare at everyone while they make fun of him. It's pretty silly. It's not a bad issue but so far Johns seems to be setting up the hero to be a bit of a humorless jerk. The flashes of horror setup at the beginning and the end were much more promising to me than the bulk of the rest of the issue.

Sven
09-29-2011, 05:02 PM
It's not a bad issue but so far Johns seems to be setting up the hero to be a bit of a humorless jerk.

Well, that's always been a bit of an Aquaman trait. An aggressive loner with no patience for BS, which is why he's such a great foil on team books. But the image of the character from this issue that has resonated with me is that of his pensive stare against a backdrop of ocean through the glass of a seafood restaurant window.

Kurosawa Fan
09-29-2011, 09:45 PM
Made a pull list at our comic book store for my son. He's getting Action, Demon Knights, The Flash, and Swamp Thing, with the caveat that I have to read the issues first to make sure they're appropriate.

We're doing this as an incentive with school. Each week that he comes home without any grade lower than a B, he gets whatever new issues came out that week.

I'm going to be getting other titles digitally. Haven't decided which ones yet.

number8
09-29-2011, 10:20 PM
If you're gonna get some for yourself, make sure you get Batman and Batwoman, yo.

Kurosawa Fan
09-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Read the four comics. Would rate them as such:

1. Swamp Thing (this was awesome)
2. Demon Knights (cool opening, sets up an interesting premise)
3. Action Comics ("cocky" young Supes seems like a stale premise, but I liked the writing)
4. The Flash (meh to both the art and the writing)

So far, nothing objectionable. My son already devoured all four as well. He LOVED Swamp Thing, liked Action and Demon Knights (but he thought this was a bit slow), and was indifferent toward The Flash.

megladon8
09-30-2011, 12:07 AM
So glad both you and your son dug "Swamp Thing", KF!! I think it may be my favorite of the bunch so far (the only thing that may best it is "Batwoman").

I wasn't sure about the gruesome ending - if you would worry about your son reading that. I guess it wasn't a problem. :D

Kurosawa Fan
09-30-2011, 12:32 AM
I wasn't sure about the gruesome ending - if you would worry about your son reading that. I guess it wasn't a problem. :D

Nah, that wasn't too gruesome. He has cousins (one of whom is only six) that can play pretty much any video game they want, and are always telling him about Resident Evil and Left 4 Dead and the like, so he's pretty "zombie" obsessed, and always feels left out when they're telling him about that stuff. This will give him a little bit of ammo the next time they're around. :D

Sven
09-30-2011, 07:11 AM
Yeah, maybe sevenarts can illuminate The Flash issue a little more...? It's so limp. Talk about a nothing hook: oh no! Many Manuels! How is this supposed to interest me when the Flash is a master of dimensional space and can time travel? Not to mention that opening action scene where he appears to be moving way too slowly. I like Manapul's art, sure, but a writer I fear he is woefully not.

KF, I'm happy to hear of your experience and set-up. Many people are grumbly and dismissive of the reboot, but I've also heard too many stories like yours to be pessimistic. Plus, more comics is a categorical positive.

EyesWideOpen
09-30-2011, 01:58 PM
I haven't been reading any of the new DC 52 but I have been reading this thread and checking the usual sites to hear about peoples thoughts on them.

ifanboy a comic site I respect and have been going to for a long time gave The Flash their "book of the week" award. It's interesting seeing the wildly different perspectives on sites and then here.

sevenarts
09-30-2011, 02:37 PM
Yeah I loved The Flash. The art is gorgeous, and not just in a "oh it's a bunch of pretty drawings" kind of way - this is really sophisticated visual storytelling. Like the page I highlighted where the Flash falls into the sewer and the middle column of panels shows his progress. I like that in order to communicate speed, Manapul has, paradoxically, slowed things down so that many of the action scenes give the impression of catching glimpses of the Flash frozen at a particular instant, then another instant, then another. The effect is a little like Muybridge's rapid-succession motion photos, and that sense of movement is really important in a comic about a super-fast man. I love the busy, detailed page where the Flash, out of costume, darts all around his apartment doing various domestic chores even while trying to figure out what's going on. I love the way Manapul shows the slight dazed smile on Flash's face and then follows it with a big panel of Iris looking down on him through the hole he made in the ground, so that at first we think Flash is just dazed from the fall and then the real source of the smile becomes clear. I think this is just first-class superhero comics: fun, funny, fast-paced and with just enough character beats to suggest that there's a real guy under the mask.

The bad guys initially seem a little generic, so I can understand being somewhat disappointed in that, but the twist at the end points the way forward to some fun sci-fi shenanigans. Not every superhero comic has to be about facing some huge, overpowering threat. I thought this was just a joy to read, especially since so many of the other New 52 titles are really conservative and backward-looking in terms of art. This is a comic that takes full advantage of the visual possibilities of a speeding hero, and that's all the hook I need.

Kurosawa Fan
09-30-2011, 04:33 PM
I'm squeezing these in between school work, so extra commentary probably won't happen too often. What I've read so far:

Loved:
Batman
Batwoman
All Star Western
Swamp Thing

Liked:
Justice League Dark
Demon Knights
Action Comics

Indifferent:
Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E.
The Flash

Disliked:
Catwoman

Sven
09-30-2011, 07:27 PM
I like that in order to communicate speed, Manapul has, paradoxically, slowed things down so that many of the action scenes give the impression of catching glimpses of the Flash frozen at a particular instant, then another instant, then another. The effect is a little like Muybridge's rapid-succession motion photos, and that sense of movement is really important in a comic about a super-fast man

How many Flash comics have you read? Because that motion-photo technique has been the standard method of communicating his speed since his inception, pretty much. Definitely not invented by Manapul.


I love the busy, detailed page where the Flash, out of costume, darts all around his apartment doing various domestic chores even while trying to figure out what's going on.

Shots like these are a Flash standard. Manapul renders gorgeously, but he's not breaking any molds.

Ezee E
10-01-2011, 12:27 AM
Woot for All-Star Western.

Kurosawa Fan
10-01-2011, 12:45 AM
Really liked Wonder Woman. Intrigued by Animal Man.

megladon8
10-01-2011, 12:57 PM
"Justice League Dark" was a delight. Some of DC's most exciting characters in a book together? Yes please!

sevenarts
10-02-2011, 01:12 PM
How many Flash comics have you read? Because that motion-photo technique has been the standard method of communicating his speed since his inception, pretty much. Definitely not invented by Manapul.

Shots like these are a Flash standard. Manapul renders gorgeously, but he's not breaking any molds.

That's fair enough, I haven't read a lot of Flash comics before. Anyway, I wasn't arguing that Manapul was the first to do these things so much as he does them really well. Like, if there's anything in older Flash comics as graceful and visually powerful as that page of the Flash falling into the sewer, I'd love to see it. Mostly, I just loved the spirit of fun and kineticism in this comic.

sevenarts
10-02-2011, 01:13 PM
"Justice League Dark" was a delight. Some of DC's most exciting characters in a book together? Yes please!

How great was that Shade/Kathy scene? This whole book is so obviously Milligan's callback to his 80s/early 90s prime.

megladon8
10-03-2011, 12:38 AM
"OMAC" may be one of the greatest surprises of the new 52 comics I've read. I went into it knowing nothing about it at all - I honestly thought it had to do with Batman's OMAC project from a few years back.

But no, what I got was a great, loving throwback to Jack Kirby's One Man Army Corps.

Awesome stuff. Cannot wait for issue 2.

ledfloyd
10-03-2011, 04:44 AM
How great was that Shade/Kathy scene?
that was definitely the highlight for me. though i hope it didn't spoil anything, as i'm currently about 30 issues into shade.

number8
10-03-2011, 02:08 PM
DiDio got into hot water when he mentioned on Facebook that none of the Crises ever happened in the relaunch. He clarified himself the next day with this:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsg0zaLd3s1qbujox.png

Ezee E
10-03-2011, 02:11 PM
I don't even know what that means.

sevenarts
10-03-2011, 04:17 PM
I love that the New 52 was supposed to simplify continuity for the sake of new readers but really it's just confusing as hell when they start talking about how some previous stories happened and some didn't and some maybe kinda sorta happened. Stuff like that is exactly why mainstream superhero comics so often drive me nuts.

Sven
10-03-2011, 04:35 PM
I just ignore it. I've never been able to bring myself to care about universe dynamics. A good book will be a good book, regardless of its fidelity to a different book's history.

Ezee E
10-03-2011, 05:14 PM
I just ignore it. I've never been able to bring myself to care about universe dynamics. A good book will be a good book, regardless of its fidelity to a different book's history.
That's how I see it. Someone mentioned they wouldn't continue with All-Star Western because it was separate from the rest of the DC timeline. Well, one, duh... Two, does it really matter? I guess to some... But just seems weird unless there's an intentional crossover.

number8
10-03-2011, 05:37 PM
Huh? What did they mean by separate timeline? Just in another time period?

Sven
10-03-2011, 05:45 PM
The bad news I heard was that future All Star Westerns are going to be colored in a more conventional, colorful fashion.

Ezee E
10-03-2011, 06:06 PM
The bad news I heard was that future All Star Westerns are going to be colored in a more conventional, colorful fashion.
Ew. If the story goes in a bad direction, I'll be done.

ledfloyd
10-04-2011, 12:52 AM
I love that the New 52 was supposed to simplify continuity for the sake of new readers but really it's just confusing as hell when they start talking about how some previous stories happened and some didn't and some maybe kinda sorta happened. Stuff like that is exactly why mainstream superhero comics so often drive me nuts.
yeah, i've always found this to be a stumbling block in the past. it's why i got really annoyed when morrison's batman run got folded into final crisis. batman and son > batman RIP stand on their own pretty well. but when you get to the end of return of bruce wayne (which i was loving up until then) and it folds back into all this final crisis stuff i have no idea about i found it kind of diminishing. maybe it's my fault for not being well versed in dc mythology but i'm not sure it's too much to ask that a piece of work at least be parsable on it's own.

Grouchy
10-04-2011, 05:57 AM
Yeah, I loved "Batman and Son" but when I realized Batman's death and resurrection was going to be very related to Final Crisis... I just lost interest and stopped reading, even though I'm sure Morrison writes the hell out of it.

Sven
10-04-2011, 06:21 AM
But since Morrison wrote Final Crisis, at least there is a strong sense of unified interconnectivity. Plus, it's some of the best stuff I've ever read. Worse would've been trying to tie his Batman into a Johns crisis.

sevenarts
10-04-2011, 12:40 PM
I've read Morrison's Batman epic so far twice, once without Final Crisis and once with it. It was pretty frustrating the first time, where after "RIP" a lot of what happens is woven together with the aftermath of Final Crisis. Reading it with Final Crisis in its proper place after "RIP" makes a lot of sense of stuff like the cloned Batman that Dick resurrects, everything that happens in Batman #701-702, and especially The Return of Bruce Wayne. It's annoying to me that Morrison's Batman saga can't stand on its own, but I do understand it because, as Sven says, Morrison himself wrote Final Crisis (which isn't bad on its own merits) so it makes sense that he'd tie it all together in that way. It's much worse when a creator's great run on a title is derailed by other people's crossovers.

Also, Morrison's Batman story isn't really intended to stand on its own in other ways, too. The second time I read the whole thing, I also prepared for it by reading stuff like The Black Casebook, Dark Knight, Dark City and Gothic, and those also lay a lot of groundwork for "RIP" and everything else. Morrison references a lot of stuff from those books without explanation, and it all made much more sense to me the second time through with all that background to draw on.

number8
10-04-2011, 02:03 PM
It's much worse when a creator's great run on a title is derailed by other people's crossovers.

This is why the Final Crisis stuff bothered me less than when the title was interrupted by "The Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul" crossover.


Also, Morrison's Batman story isn't really intended to stand on its own in other ways, too. The second time I read the whole thing, I also prepared for it by reading stuff like The Black Casebook, Dark Knight, Dark City and Gothic, and those also lay a lot of groundwork for "RIP" and everything else. Morrison references a lot of stuff from those books without explanation, and it all made much more sense to me the second time through with all that background to draw on.

Don't forget Silver Age. I mean, if you're familiar with "Robin Dies at Dawn" and "Batman, the Superman of Planet X," there's more to draw from even more. Weirdly enough, I sort of regret the fact that I never got to read Morrison's Batman without that stuff, as I've come across those two stories prior. Knowing what all the "Zurr-En-Arrh" hints were building up to, I'm sure reading it not knowing what the fuck it means would be another experience entirely.

sevenarts
10-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Don't forget Silver Age. I mean, if you're familiar with "Robin Dies at Dawn" and "Batman, the Superman of Planet X," there's more to draw from even more. Weirdly enough, I sort of regret the fact that I never got to read Morrison's Batman without that stuff, as I've come across those two stories prior. Knowing what all the "Zurr-En-Arrh" hints were building up to, I'm sure reading it not knowing what the fuck it means would be another experience entirely.

Yeah, "Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul" was pretty boring, and it was frustrating that it broke up Morrison's story. On re-read I skimmed over all that and didn't feel like I missed much of anything.

The Silver Age stories you're talking about are in The Black Casebook. It's pretty goofy stuff, but very much essential to Morrison's Batman. Frankly, when I read the Morrison stuff the first time without having read all those stories, I was pretty confused by a lot of what Morrison was doing. I could tell he was referencing earlier stories, but when I reread it after reading all those old stories, I realized just how much I was missing by not having that background. Everything falls into place with that added context. Reading the Morrison issues without knowing about all that earlier stuff just isn't nearly as good of an experience.

ledfloyd
10-04-2011, 07:44 PM
i read morrison's batman twice before reading any of the stuff that he's referencing. the first time i was a bit at sea. the second time i through it was the best batman story i've ever read (still do). i think it's just so dense it takes a reading or two to fully comprehend. having that background knowledge certainly helps, but i think it works fine on it's own (up til the end of RIP anyway, which is kind of an ending point in and of itself). perhaps i should read final crisis and see how that adds to the experience.

megladon8
10-04-2011, 07:47 PM
So of the titles I have read so far (I have a few titles on my pull list that I didn't get to read the #1's of yet as they were over-sold), I would rank them as such...


Excellent

OMAC
Swamp Thing
Batwoman
Batman
Justice League Dark
Superman

Good

Action Comics
Batgirl
Detective Comics
Frankenstein: Agent of S.H.A.D.E.
Captain Atom
Wonder Woman

So-So

Justice League

Bad

Catwoman


Biggest surprises: OMAC, Batgirl and Justice League Dark

Biggest disappointments: Action Comics (good, but was expecting brilliance), Justice League, Catwoman

megladon8
10-04-2011, 10:40 PM
I thought "Captain Atom" was gorgeous, but I think it was the colours that did it for me.

Looking at the penciling, it's not particularly impressive.

But man is the colour work divine.

Sven
10-05-2011, 08:45 PM
I'm exceptionally pleased with all my selections today minus one.

OMAC continues its deluge of dunderheaded Kirby chaos, which is wholly satisfying, even if part of me wishes that the writing was punchier. Really I'm just wishing for more Godland.

Stormwatch was a bit obtuse, but the coloring and production combined with Cornell's whimsy on an apocalyptic scale makes it very fun to read regardless.

Action Comics, I'm sorry for contributing to the fanboy wad, read perfectly. So far the structure is impressive and Luthor's characterization is hilarious.

Red Lanterns is still probably my favorite title of the bunch. Milligan has a nebulous approach to focal point which is working excellently here, shifting between divergent emotional fluxes and character perspectives to explore the genesis of rage.

As for Swamp Thing, I can't say it's bad, really, because the art is easily among the best of the reboot, and the script is moody. But for as much time as they've taken explaining the past, I still have no idea what's happening in the present. The poor exposition is killing it.

Sven
10-05-2011, 08:50 PM
Plus, re: Swamp Thing, last minute rescue by woman with shotgun on a motorcycle is almost a guaranteed way to get me to stop reading.

sevenarts
10-05-2011, 10:35 PM
I was a little disappointed in this issue of Swamp Thing, too, but I still have faith that this will be a good series overall. Snyder just needs to get over all this infodump storytelling. The first issue was much better at balancing the necessary information with more visual storytelling.

I predictably loved, loved, loved Animal Man again. This issue was even better than the first, every page was just one amazing image/event after another. This is so clearly the best New 52 series it's not even close.

Action Comics was tons of fun too, also even better than the already great first issue. I love this badass Superman's attitude, seeing him storm around fucking shit up and laughing about it was just a blast.

number8
10-06-2011, 03:43 AM
I feel like Snyder was trying to ape Alan Moore with the big splash-page infodump conversation. It's totally a Moore trope.

ledfloyd
10-06-2011, 03:54 AM
i was disappointed by swamp thing as well. but i liked yanick paquette's use of branches in place of gutters and the organic feel of the panel divisions that disappeared when alec returned to the hotel only to return when insanity began creeping back in. formalism!

animal man continues to intrigue me even if i'm having trouble adapting to travel foreman's art. action comics is the most unassuming thing morrison has done in years but it's just so damn good and really takes the title of the book to heart. loving it.

Sven
10-06-2011, 05:26 AM
I feel like Snyder was trying to ape Alan Moore with the big splash-page infodump conversation. It's totally a Moore trope.

Fortunately, Moore wasn't trying to reconcile years of continuity gaffes so was able to use the space to a greater expressive effect. Thank goodness Paquette's the artist, because it could've been quite a chore.

number8
10-06-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm liking the mini-crossovers, by the way.

It's become more obvious now that Animal Man and Swamp Thing are basically the exact same plot told from two different perspectives, which is such a great idea.

Nightwing and Batman appears to be directly related with the "Dick Grayson is a murderer" thing.

I've heard that OMAC and Frankenstein are directly linked, and that they're going to bump into each other soon.

Basically what they're doing is setting up the typical superhero encounter/fights, but streamlining by using each book to tell a point of view that you don't have to necessarily follow. Neat idea.

Are there any other books that are like this?

sevenarts
10-06-2011, 05:35 PM
Scott Snyder and Jeff Lemire have said that they're going to collaborate and link Swamp Thing and Animal Man. I like that idea a lot, especially since they're both among the best writers involved in the New 52.

Superboy and Teen Titans are directly linked (and both written by Scott Lobdell) but neither is especially exciting. Superboy #1 wasn't bad, I didn't like Teen Titans much though.

number8
10-06-2011, 06:05 PM
Given Xanadu and Etrigan's presence in both books, I'm guessing JLD and Demon Knights will be marginally related, too.

Acapelli
10-06-2011, 07:01 PM
and demon knights and stormwatch

this month's stormwatch says the organization goes back centuries

Sven
10-06-2011, 07:09 PM
There's that brief weirdness connecting Stormwatch and Superman too.

number8
10-06-2011, 07:13 PM
To be fair, Cornell said that Stormwatch will be "ground zero" of DCnU. It will follow all the big events in all the DC books and detail to what degree was Stormwatch involved. I believe he said that if you want to buy only one book of the 52 and still keep up with current DC continuity, it should be Stormwatch.

megladon8
10-06-2011, 10:52 PM
OK, I'm officially completely on board with "Action Comics".

Awesome issue.

megladon8
10-06-2011, 11:17 PM
I imagine I'll drop "Justice League". Issue 1 didn't impress me much, so if issue 2 doesn't do much either, I'll officially drop it.

I've already paid up to issue 4, so no use getting any more if it's no good.

Ezee E
10-06-2011, 11:22 PM
Yup. A whole lot going on in Action Comics #2. Don't understand why it's $1 more then the others.

number8
10-06-2011, 11:48 PM
There are more pages.

ledfloyd
10-07-2011, 01:51 AM
There are more pages.
yet only 20 pages of story.

Acapelli
10-07-2011, 02:29 AM
http://i52.tinypic.com/24o9068.png

lois looks like she smelled a fart

megladon8
10-07-2011, 03:11 AM
I don't see what everyone's so disappointed about with "Swamp Thing" #2. I thought it was great, and I loved the art and page layouts.

Beautiful colour work.

number8
10-07-2011, 12:57 PM
http://i52.tinypic.com/24o9068.png

lois looks like she smelled a fart

Rightfully. Metallo's a shit.

Ezee E
10-07-2011, 03:06 PM
She seemed skinnier in the first book.

number8
10-07-2011, 03:20 PM
So is Detective Comics just going to

have a character's face cut up as a cliffhanger at the end of every issue?

sevenarts
10-07-2011, 03:55 PM
I was willing to give Detective Comics a shot after the so-so first issue, but the second one was painfully bad. Like, one of the villains is a blonde in a "sexy nurse" costume? Did the bad guys raid a Halloween costume shop?

ledfloyd
10-07-2011, 05:22 PM
So is Detective Comics just going to

have a character's face cut up as a cliffhanger at the end of every issue?
they did that again? glad i didn't bother.

Ezee E
10-07-2011, 05:47 PM
I was willing to give Detective Comics a shot after the so-so first issue, but the second one was painfully bad. Like, one of the villains is a blonde in a "sexy nurse" costume? Did the bad guys raid a Halloween costume shop?
This, and the reveal of the whole group has me thinking that I'll pass on it as well.

I just hate it where a villain reveals his name, and it's in large caps and stuff.

If "The Dollmaker" were more of a John Doe/Kevin Spacey killer, I'd be in it, but this is just over the top silly. One more issue...

megladon8
10-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Something I've always found frustrating is how I always seem to drop titles at the worst time.

A title will be having a horrid run for like 8 months, so I finally decide to stop wasting my money and drop it, then it's almost guaranteed that within the next few issues there'll be some incredible, character-defining run that I'll miss the first issues of, and so I'll have to either buy the trade later, or put the issues on backorder and hope they arrive, which, if they do at all, will be around the time the trade comes out anyways.

It's always such a gamble what to pick up, keep or drop. I don't know how anyone could possibly keep on top of what all is good and bad on the shelves without resorting to downloading them illegally.

For example I feel like an arse for not putting "Animal Man" on my pull list, but at this point it would be futile to try backordering issues 1 and 2. I could buy them from the DC site, but I'm one of those people who likes to actually have the issue on my shelf.

number8
10-07-2011, 07:55 PM
Uhh, DC just shipped their reprint versions of all the titles' #1s this week (with new covers, too). Most comic book stores should have Animal Man #1 in stock last Wednesday.

Ezee E
10-07-2011, 09:13 PM
If it's an issue or two behind, I've always seem those at comic book stores.

I'm liking the online catalog though. They're always there, and I refuse to have boxes of comics or waste that much paper.

megladon8
10-08-2011, 04:30 AM
Uhh, DC just shipped their reprint versions of all the titles' #1s this week (with new covers, too). Most comic book stores should have Animal Man #1 in stock last Wednesday.


Mine doesn't. I asked.

They said it was a shot in the dark to order one, too.

Ezee E
10-11-2011, 04:26 AM
Jesus, Swamp Thing #2 was wordy, as you all have said. Skipped your comments until now.

And that final scene... Yeah, I think I'm done with that one. Fantastic art though.

Ezee E
10-11-2011, 05:26 AM
But Animal Man, while very weird, keeps me interested. Good stuff there.

Sven
10-11-2011, 06:19 AM
But Animal Man, while very weird, keeps me interested. Good stuff there.

I just don't see it. Lemire doesn't appear to think about juxtaposition or organic storytelling. I mentioned the gunshots from the first issue, and with this one he does similar things. When Buddy sternly admonishes his son for wanting to get a camera, the next panel shows a placid Cliff, next page is Cliff with a camera free from objection. What's the dynamic there? It's a forced surge of exclamation that resets at the end of the page. The book is full of this kind of lurching pace.

It could be that I'm so mired in older, weirder comic books that everything Lemire does appears derivative or forced. Nothing is natural. Where's the gravity that the presence of the Red suggests? A lazy critique, but it comes down to a rushed oddness for oddness's sake, which is a damn shame for a title with such a historied strangeness born of a lucid awareness of primitive states and the potential for horrific mundanity. It's definitely a weird beast, which sets it apart a bit, but I'm mostly surprised that so many people love it. It's limp.

Worse is trying to tell people how much I admired Suicide Squad and Red Lanterns, imperfect as they are. "Because you like shitty comics" is what my coworker says. Maybe he's right.

sevenarts
10-11-2011, 12:34 PM
Not that this is the meat of your objection, but Cliff with the camera just shows that at that point no one was really paying attention to him. Buddy does distractedly tell Cliff to "put that away" but he's not even looking at Cliff, he's looking at Max. That kitchen scene was done so well, with so much going on, and Cliff, as the "normal" kid of the family, just kind of drifts through the background while everyone's attention is on Max and her new animal friends. That scene isn't confusing or inconsistent, it's actually evidence of Lemire and Foreman's rather good sense of staging. It really feels to me like a chaotic family scene invaded by all this weirdness.

I just love this comic, and don't see it as oddness for its own sake at all. It is, crucially, oddness happening to a family - a somewhat unusual family, true, but still a family, and it's the family's reactions to these events that form the real drama here. Plus, as horror, it's just amazingly creepy and full of great images.

I continue to be baffled by anyone who doesn't like this book - let alone while praising Suicide Squad or Red Lanterns! Heh. :crazy:

megladon8
10-11-2011, 02:23 PM
Worse is trying to tell people how much I admired Suicide Squad and Red Lanterns, imperfect as they are. "Because you like shitty comics" is what my coworker says. Maybe he's right.


Nah. "Red Lanterns" was one of the best of the bunch.

Ezee E
10-11-2011, 04:11 PM
I just don't see it. Lemire doesn't appear to think about juxtaposition or organic storytelling. I mentioned the gunshots from the first issue, and with this one he does similar things. When Buddy sternly admonishes his son for wanting to get a camera, the next panel shows a placid Cliff, next page is Cliff with a camera free from objection. What's the dynamic there? It's a forced surge of exclamation that resets at the end of the page. The book is full of this kind of lurching pace.

It could be that I'm so mired in older, weirder comic books that everything Lemire does appears derivative or forced. Nothing is natural. Where's the gravity that the presence of the Red suggests? A lazy critique, but it comes down to a rushed oddness for oddness's sake, which is a damn shame for a title with such a historied strangeness born of a lucid awareness of primitive states and the potential for horrific mundanity. It's definitely a weird beast, which sets it apart a bit, but I'm mostly surprised that so many people love it. It's limp.

Worse is trying to tell people how much I admired Suicide Squad and Red Lanterns, imperfect as they are. "Because you like shitty comics" is what my coworker says. Maybe he's right.
I really have no idea how to respond to it, but "The Red" is a strange thing to all, and it'll certainly be addressed in future issues. Works for me.

ledfloyd
10-11-2011, 07:49 PM
i feel like i should read red lanterns just to see where i fall in this debate.

Sven
10-11-2011, 07:58 PM
it's actually evidence of Lemire and Foreman's rather good sense of staging.

Earlier in the second issue, there is a big dramatic upward angle tableau in front of looming clouds taking up a third of the page. But the preceding pages show nothing but clear skies. A forced perspective demonstrating their mutual lack of concern for organic continuum. And the family dynamic you mention I am definitely not seeing: in the first issue, the kids only have three very small cliche-peppered sentences each (Cliff calls Max "squirt" and Max's stuffed animal is "Mr. Woofers", giving these kids a strongly artificial feel). Granted we were talking about issue two, which I don't have, in which they have more lines. But it's still not a strong start for establishing any kind of dimensional portrayal of the family's interrelationships.

Really, I should sit down with the issues and annotate my issues. I'm sure I could mount a solid case.

Ezee E
10-11-2011, 10:33 PM
Looking forward to the Batladies comics tomorrow.

ledfloyd
10-13-2011, 02:30 AM
demon knights was a ton of fun again. it seems to have more than the usual amount of female protagonists. which is nice. i decided to give frankenstein another shot and i'm not hooked yet but think i'll stick it out at least through issue 3.

batwoman continues to be stunning. not only is williams turning in the best art of his career but his writing is proving to be a match for it. the scene with maggie and kate on the doorstep was wonderful.

dreamdead
10-13-2011, 12:32 PM
The narrative handling of Batwoman has indeed been a gift; the artwork in this second issue was less self-consciously showy, yet Williams consistently finds new ways to play with the double-spread page, such as Maggie's theorizing about the attack, and to play with different art styles within the pages (love his use of his original art style with Chase here).

That cover is gorgeous, and seeing Desolation Jones at the party was fun.

sevenarts
10-13-2011, 12:40 PM
Yeah I love that Chase seems almost like a character from a different comic - which of course she is. And though it's super-obvious, I continue to be blown away by how Williams switches styles for the in-costume scenes versus the civilian life scenes. It's a simple gimmick but it's done so stylishly and it works so well. This issue ended kind of abruptly, but otherwise I feel like this is going to be my favorite book every week it comes out.

It's not actually part of the New 52, but this week I also really enjoyed the first issue of James Robinson's The Shade miniseries. Very fun and smart, it seems like it's going to be a fine addition to his Starman legacy.

number8
10-13-2011, 02:31 PM
Remember when he totally aped Mazzuchelli's Batman: Year One style for Kate's origin story? That was tits.

Sven
10-13-2011, 03:16 PM
The only three I got were Batwoman, which was good though the ending was weak and I'm not sure how to process the, what, five artistic styles employed (sometimes in the same panel) beyond good-looking gimmick (excellent-looking, really), Demon Knights, which had that great entendre following Shining Knight's comment about Exoristos top (and Neves continuing his terrific rendering), and Suicide Squad, where the stylistic back-and-forth is less fluid than in Batwoman, but as a nasty piece of violent, from-the-gut comics action, is impressively composed.

number8
10-13-2011, 03:57 PM
You know what I'm tired of waiting for, but will keep waiting with saliva-dripping anyway? Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman, which he's been talking for fucking two years now.

So it looks like this is not going to be part of the DCnU after all and instead going to be a separate miniseries in its own continuity like All-Star Superman (maybe they'll call it All-Star Wonder Woman), but here's Grant talking about it at the Edinburgh Book Festival:


Ooh I'm sweating the minute you said fetish! [laughs] Well yeah, interestingly the thing about Wonder Woman, I don't know if people know this, you probably all know this, but I'm gonna tell you it again just to bore you, but Wonder Woman was created by William Moulton Marston, who was a pop-psychologist and a little bit more than that in the 30s and 40s, and basically he was a kind of proponent of free love and that kind of you know, 1950s post-Kinsey stuff. So him and his wife had a lover called Olive Byrne, a younger, an 18 year old, and they were both sort of professors, and Olive was the original physical model for Wonder Woman. And Elizabeth Marston and Charles [William's pen name] basically created this character, because they felt that Superman represented a kind of blood-curdling masculinity as they said, so they wanted to introduce somebody who was a bit more feminine, but now at the same time Marston also had all these amazing kinks, because he had this idea that basically the world would be better if men would just submit to women's complete instruction. And I'm sure many of you may agree! [laughs] But he took it all the way, not just submit to instruction but get collars on, and get down on all fours, and just admit that's where you belong guys!

So a lot of the Wonder Woman stories had this thread through them, this idea of bondage but it was "loving submission" Marston called it. And it was this notion that, as I said in the book, there's a story where Wonder Woman rescues the slave girls of an evil Nazi villain, and the slave girls don't know what to do, even though they've been rescued they're kind of, they like being slaves. So Wonder Woman just says "Oh, don't worry, you can be slaves on Paradise Island and one of our girls will take over but she'll be really nice to you unlike the Nazi!", and that was seen as, that was the resolution to the story! You've got a nice mistress instead of a crop-cracking Paula Von Gunther.

So Marston had all these ideas and it was very deep, there was a book by him which was hidden in the DC Comics vaults because they didn't really want anyone to see it, and a friend of mine at DC sneaked it out for me one time. And it's this thing, and honestly you can't read it, it's deranged, it's like the guys just done mescaline or something, talking about his sexual theories. And it reads like William Burroughs, it's all this stuff about the luminous women from Venus and how they'll tie something round you and you'll be sorted out! So there was that, the Wonder Woman strip had this weird libidinous kind of element and obviously on Paradise Island, it was this amazing Second Wave, separatist, feminist idea of an entire island where women had ruled for 3000 years and what they did for fun was chase one another! So the girls would dress up like stags and run through the forest and another girl would chase them and then they'd capture the girl, tie her up and put her on a table and pretend to eat her at a mock banquet. This is a typical Wonder Woman adventure! [laughs] In 1941.

But then Marston died, and that energy left the strip, it just disappeared. They were really worried about what he was doing, the bondage elements were becoming more and more overt, but the sales were good! [laughs] This was working! Unlike Superman, as you say, I started looking at trying to do a Wonder Woman that brought back some of these elements but without it being prurient or exploitative.

Superman when he began was, he could throw people out of windows, you used to see him drop kicking guys into the ocean, and obviously that would kill you. You know Batman had a gun and sometimes he would shoot people. But those things weren't intrinsic to the strips, you know, you could take out those elements, you could take out the murder element of Superman and Batman and the strips still worked. But when you took the sex out of Wonder Woman, the thing went flat. And the sales died immediately after Marston himself died and never ever recovered.

So it seemed that there was something about those libidinous elements that were actually fundamental to the concept of Wonder Woman, and trying to find a way to put those back without being William Moulton Marston and not being into what he was into, was quite a difficult thing. But yeah, I think I've found a way, but I'm not gonna tell you what I've done because hopefully the Wonder Woman series will be out next year sometime or thereabouts. But I think I've found a way to get all that back in again but it took a lot of reading. This has been the hardest project I've ever done. I had to read feminist theory all the way through, from Simone De Beauvoir to Andrea Dworkin and apply it to this character. And to try and do something that incorporated those ideas but completely took them in a different direction. So I mean beyond that I'll say, Wonder Woman needs sex definitely because you know, again as I said in the book, they kind of transformed her into a cross between the Virgin Mary and Mary Tyler Moore. This girl scout who had no sexuality at all and the character's never quite worked since then.

In the way that Superman's supposed to stand for men but at least he's allowed to have some kind of element of sexuality, Wonder Woman is expected to stand for women without any element of sexuality, and that seems wrong. I don't know if that answers the question but it shows I've been thinking about it! [laughs]

Grouchy
10-13-2011, 04:20 PM
Wow, I can't wait to read that either.

I remember telling my ex who knows shit about comics that Wonder Woman was created by a feminist thinker and having to watch her rolling her eyes and going all "she's just a character created to show flesh for the men blah blah blah" without even listening to me. Fucking idiot.

I swear I'll eventually shut up about my ex.

Fezzik
10-13-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm not really a comics reader, but I have friends who are. They team up every week and split the releases between them, then meet on Wednesdays to read and share.

I have read a couple of them, and I'm intrigued by them, but since I really don't know comics, I don't know what my tastes are yet.

I really liked Aquaman. I thought the beginning was hilarious ("you want a glass of water?" "...no...") and him alone in the restaurant was very moving. Overall, the book was pretty damn funny, and Aquaman has some great facial expressions.

I'd never heard of Voodoo before and I think it's nicely drawn. Of course, I'm not an artist so I could be talking out of my ass and it could be shit for all I know, but I liked the vibe. It felt a little like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Red Hood and Outlaws was painful. The beginning with the jailbreak was good, but the depiction of Starfire is borderline offensive. I know "comics" Starfire is much different than "Cartoon" Starfire, but this is ridiculous.

Sven
10-13-2011, 05:19 PM
I really liked Aquaman. I thought the beginning was hilarious ("you want a glass of water?" "...no...") and him alone in the restaurant was very moving. Overall, the book was pretty damn funny, and Aquaman has some great facial expressions.

Gnarly. Yeah, this is one that I hope stays quality.


I'd never heard of Voodoo before and I think it's nicely drawn. Of course, I'm not an artist so I could be talking out of my ass and it could be shit for all I know, but I liked the vibe. It felt a little like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Red Hood and Outlaws was painful. The beginning with the jailbreak was good, but the depiction of Starfire is borderline offensive. I know "comics" Starfire is much different than "Cartoon" Starfire, but this is ridiculous.

I don't think you are being inconsistent, but how do you reconcile the offensive Starfire with the gratuitous T&A in Voodoo? I thought the latter was in poorer taste personally, as I think it was aiming for at least a minimal degree of relevance and ended up a vehicle for recycled stripper cliches. Whereas Red Hood was just boys fantasy.

Fezzik
10-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Gnarly. Yeah, this is one that I hope stays quality.



I don't think you are being inconsistent, but how do you reconcile the offensive Starfire with the gratuitous T&A in Voodoo? I thought the latter was in poorer taste personally, as I think it was aiming for at least a minimal degree of relevance and ended up a vehicle for recycled stripper cliches. Whereas Red Hood was just boys fantasy.

IMO, The T&A in Voodoo actually had relevance to the story:

She was a shapeshifter and being a stripper was a good way to catch her next prey. Yeah, perhaps it was a bit over the top in the sheer amount of it, but it fit in context

Starfire simply seemed to be there for people to gawk at her, and there was no base reason for it as far as I can see. Just people drooling, taking pictures of her and posting them on the net - and the two main characters both getting to have sex with her because she doesn't value human relationships so she doesn't think anything of it :rolleyes:

sevenarts
10-13-2011, 05:38 PM
Making Starfire a slut who will have meaningless sex with anyone was way more offensive to me than the rather harmless, cheesecakey, cliche-ridden stripper stuff in Voodoo, which was at least well drawn. Red Hood was just vile in every way. I didn't like Voodoo very much either but it was pretty to look at. Also, at least that character has always been a stripper, whereas the revamp of Starfire was something the creators had to go out of their way to do.

I'm looking forward to Morrison's Wonder Woman too but I'm glad it's not supplanting the Azzarello/Chiang series, the first issue of which was one of my definite New 52 favorites.

Sven
10-13-2011, 05:51 PM
The upfrontness of it, though. The fact that this Starfire has been constructed TO BE a cipherous bedhopper, shared by hunky bros with action guns, to me makes the pointed criticisms of her alleged offensiveness inert. Because the whole thing is purposefully stupid. It's a stupid boys fantasy, it tells you that, and people are still like "what's this super hot sex chick doing in a stupid boys fantasy?" What's offensive is not that boys want to look at naked girls, but that Lobdell doesn't know how to write a meaningful boys fantasy. And I agree that it is definitely sad for the reboot to be used to wipe away the dimensionality of a character, which is what I think is really at the heart of the complaints.

Ezee E
10-13-2011, 06:01 PM
How long is Morrison going to work on Action Comics?

Sven
10-13-2011, 06:13 PM
Making Starfire a slut
the revamp of Starfire

In the end, what I'm hearing is complaints about the cheapening of a publishing house property, not the greater problem of female objectification. The offense is the bastardization of the character, which I think is a minimal offense. And stupidly radical during an initiative that is being criticized for not being radical.

I guess where my sensibilities lie, Marz's poor stripper drama writing is a greater artistic offense, when you factor in the ambition the initiative encourages, than Lobdell's poor action fantasy writing.

Sven
10-13-2011, 06:13 PM
How long is Morrison going to work on Action Comics?

He said he's already got 16 issues prepped for development.

number8
10-13-2011, 07:01 PM
I have more of a problem with the namecalling of Starfire.

To take issue with the change of personality, and argue that the art is succumbing to the male gaze, are criticisms that are perfectly valid; but to see comic fans resort to calling her a whore and a skank just because she chooses to have sex with two people she is friendly with is a form of slut-shaming that I find disgusting.

If I didn't find the premise boring, I'd probably support it out of spite.

Sven
10-13-2011, 07:26 PM
To take issue with the change of personality, and argue that the art is succumbing to the male gaze, are criticisms that are perfectly valid; but to see comic fans resort to calling her a whore and a skank just because she chooses to have sex with two people she is friendly with is a form of slut-shaming that I find disgusting.

Good point, though I think the name-calling is incited just as much by Starfire's lack of a role beyond the loose sex as it is by the sex itself. Not having much of a character, it reads more like Lobdell's wish fulfillment than a well-defined choice.

sevenarts
10-13-2011, 07:53 PM
Sorry for calling a fictional character names. Anyway, I'm all for people having as much sex as they want with whoever they want, and more power to 'em. But Starfire in Red Hood is just transparent BS male wish fulfillment, a character conceived for no other purpose than to have sex with the male leads and serve as the butt of their jokes and frat boy high-fiving. It's not the fact that the character has sex with two guys that I find objectionable, it's how Lobdell presents it. The tone is not, "here's an empowered woman who can have sex with whoever she wants," it's "look at this sex toy." She's presented as an object, and her dialogue is designed to further that impression, to suggest that she's OK with being seen as an object.

Voodoo of course has the same wish fulfillment, male gaze stuff, and so does Catwoman, but neither of those seems as nasty about it as Red Hood, and neither is as completely dismissive of a female character's potential for something beyond pin-up posing and casual sex. The whole tone of Red Hood just really rubs me the wrong way.

number8
10-13-2011, 08:09 PM
Good point, though I think the name-calling is incited just as much by Starfire's lack of a role beyond the loose sex as it is by the sex itself. Not having much of a character, it reads more like Lobdell's wish fulfillment than a well-defined choice.

I'm not going to defend Lobdell's writing since it sucks, but personally, I don't see a grievous lack of a depth missing from her that's present in Jason and Roy, and as far as competence goes, she's the one who saves their ass during the action scene. She's drawn as a minimally clothed sexpot so there is an element of wish-fulfillment, yes, but leaving aside the fact that it's inherent to her very character and George Perez drew her that way in Titans since her very debut, an emotionally unavailable character is still a characterization.

I'd probably have a different opinion of the debacle if Starfire is not the one explicitly shown making the decisions and just as assertively rescinding the offer when Roy reacts to it clumsily. Or if Roy and Jason aren't portrayed as sexually attractive themselves, since it's not like there's a Weird Sciencey sex genie bones two losers situation going on. It's three highly attractive people who decide to engage in casual sex when they're not out slaughtering people.

Sven
10-13-2011, 08:23 PM
You've got great points. At least we can all agree we're not picking up the second issue.

number8
10-14-2011, 09:07 PM
Interesting bit from Snyder. (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/scott-snynder-batman-part-1-111013.html)


Nrama: Speaking of that "whole Bat-family" idea, as the first issue ended, Dick Grayson was implicated as the perpetrator of a crime. He's also implicated in his own title, Nightwing by Kyle Higgins. Was that on purpose?

Snyder: Yes. They're coordinated. It's not one big mystery that's going to be in both books, where it's solved in Batman and begun in Nightwing, or vice versa. It's just something that we wanted to play up concurrently. There is a mystery that's going to connect both Nightwing and Batman as we go forward.

In Batman, it's a story about a villain who has ties to Gotham historically and has manipulated events and has been a huge influence on the shape of Gotham, both physically in its architecture and in its politics and its social geography.

So in that way, we really wanted it to have revelations that had to do with all the families, from the Waynes to the Graysons to the Drakes to the Cobblepots. It's about all of them.

I don't want to give readers the sense that they have to read them both to understand what's going on, because that's not true. And they are separate mysteries. They're two strands of the same DNA.

But thematically, it will be similar in Nightwing and Batman, as we play up the tension that exists between Dick Grayson and Bruce. It's something that's going to come into play in a big way in Batman, and I think in Nightwing down the line.

They're extremely close, and Bruce obviously cares a lot about Dick. And Dick cares a lot about Bruce. But they also have a lot of tension between them, and Bruce isn't very good at showing how he cares for people a lot of the time, and he pushes them away. Part of him wants to be alone as Batman. And all that stuff ebbs and flows with them and becomes something that at times brings them close together, and sometimes brings them at odds.

This story will be about both those things, that they're really close, but it will also hint about things that can drive them apart as well.

Ezee E
10-15-2011, 05:32 AM
Batwoman might be the best drawn and best story... That and All-Star Western.

megladon8
10-16-2011, 11:36 PM
Fuck. "Batwoman" is all kinds of amazing.

It's so good, I'm going to buy the trades of it even though I'll have all the issues.

It will really piss me off if this title dies.

Ezee E
10-17-2011, 12:00 AM
Top selling comics for Sept:
1. Batman #1
2. Action Comics
3. Green Lantern
4. Flash
5. Superman
6. Detective Comics
7. Batman: Dark Knight
8. Fear Itself #6
9. Ultimate Spider-Man
10. Batman & Robin

Batwoman was #17

Can't account for all 52, but Omac was the worst that I saw.

Kurosawa Fan
10-17-2011, 12:08 AM
Can't account for all 52, but Omac was the worst that I saw.

OMAC is awesome. You're crazy.

Ezee E
10-17-2011, 12:16 AM
OMAC is awesome. You're crazy.

Didn't read it. Just was the worst in the top 100 sales.

sevenarts
10-17-2011, 12:46 AM
OMAC actually was pretty fun, one of the bigger surprises of the New 52. Just shameless Kirby homage but really enjoyable.

The ones I'll be really pissed if they get cancelled are Animal Man and Batwoman, hopefully they did well enough to continue with the same creative teams for quite a while.

Ezee E
10-17-2011, 12:53 AM
Link (http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=237&ai=113704&ssd=)

Not sure what's considered "successful."

Kurosawa Fan
10-17-2011, 01:52 AM
Didn't read it. Just was the worst in the top 100 sales.

Oh. My mistake. I actually added it to my son's pull list after reading the first issue. I think it's fun as hell. Here's to hoping it catches on.

megladon8
10-17-2011, 02:40 AM
OMAC is awesome. You're crazy.


Heck yeah! Glad you're diggin' it, too!

Love that it's a total throwback to Kirby's original.

megladon8
10-20-2011, 03:19 AM
Jim Lee is such a boring artist.

ledfloyd
10-20-2011, 06:11 AM
batman was solid. and now that i have a better idea of what azzarello is trying to accomplish with wonder woman i think i'll stick with it for the time being.

number8
10-20-2011, 06:26 PM
Yeah, Batman #2 was a great read. Great balance of mystery and action.

megladon8
10-20-2011, 08:14 PM
Yeah, Batman #2 was a great read. Great balance of mystery and action.


I loved the introductory history lesson on the tower.

Very cool. Not too hot on the artwork though.

Sven
10-20-2011, 09:39 PM
The only other one I've read so far (on account of being hundreds of miles from my pull list) is the second Mister Terrific, being an impromptu purchase at Midtown Comics). Utterly baffling, but not in a normal kinda way. The art is as frustrating as it is effective, and the science talk boggles in a more esoteric way than, say, what Ellis is doing on Secret Avengers (which I also picked up here and don't regret).

Anyway, can't wait to catch up when I get back.

number8
10-20-2011, 09:48 PM
Wait, are you back in NYC right now?

Kurosawa Fan
10-20-2011, 09:54 PM
Wait, are you back in NYC right now?

You'd know this if you hadn't given up on Facebook for no good reason. :P

number8
10-20-2011, 10:07 PM
You'd know this if you hadn't given up on Facebook for no good reason. :P

Pftt, Sven knew this and I'm assuming he still has my cellphone number. Clearly he was purposefully avoiding me because he owes me money.

Sven
10-21-2011, 05:37 AM
Haha. Nothing personal, 8. My visit was jam-packed, and my visit to Midtown was mostly one of convenience. Attempting to coordinate visits with even the closest of my friends was stressful and frequently a bust. Had I an extra day, I'd've said that at least drinks or something would be in order.

I am now back in Seattle, sadly.

Ezee E
10-25-2011, 05:15 AM
Batman #2 has a solid story going for it. But how did Wayne save himself from that fall? I understand the 13th gargoyle... but how? The art was confusing to look at.

The whole backstory was pretty awesome though.

number8
10-25-2011, 05:17 AM
What do you mean? He just landed on it.

Sven
10-25-2011, 06:29 AM
E, on the page where he's posing on the gargoyle (third from the end), the first panel features the same gargoyle, darkened in the lower right hand corner. The fourth panel is the image of Wayne grabbing onto the gargoyle reflected in the falling Owl guy's goggle lens. Not the clearest visual storytelling, particularly since the statue is not seen on any other page. Thankfully the rest of the issue is excellent. Spectacular new character in the politician.

bac0n
10-26-2011, 01:25 PM
So, based on positive postings about it here on The Cut, I picked up Batwoman #1 a week ago but didn't actually get around to it until last night. All I can say is that you guys are right; BW is one of the gems of the new 52. I would even say it's the best I've read of 'em. At any rate, the book is definitely going on the pull list. Such fabulous artwork and panel layouts.

On a related note, I think I'm gonna drop JLA. Just not doing it for me, and lee's drawing, it just seems so... Dated.

Ezee E
10-26-2011, 02:53 PM
I like that the prices drop to $1.99 after a month. I'll give a few issues a try.

number8
10-26-2011, 02:56 PM
I like that the prices drop to $1.99 after a month. I'll give a few issues a try.

Yeah, I was thinking of doing this with a few titles I'm not too excited for.

Ezee E
10-26-2011, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of doing this with a few titles I'm not too excited for.
Grifter
Nightwing
Mr. Terrific (or something like that)
and Batwing

$8 haul... Pretty awesome.

Sven
10-27-2011, 12:57 AM
While I am fairly interested in Batman Noel because of the preview pages, do they have to be in the back of every book?

Dropping Aquaman after this issue. It's still well illustrated, but the fun from the first issue has turned typical in the second. Maybe I'll look at the trade when it comes out.

JLD continues its excellence, however. Milligan is great with off-hand spookiness, and Janin's quasi-traced strangeness works for it.

number8
10-27-2011, 02:56 PM
I kinda love how Deadman is starring in, like, three books at once. Finally getting his due.

Sven
10-27-2011, 03:16 PM
I kinda love how Deadman is starring in, like, three books at once. Finally getting his due.

By any stretch of imaginary chance, did you read the second Hawk and Dove? I did not, but I'm still not over the weirdness of their romance. And this last JLD book didn't do much to assuage that weirdness.

And DCU Presents 2 was a terrific read. Made me wanna plunge off the Jenkins deep end. I've read Sentry and Inhumans. Anything else on the radar I should know about?

number8
10-27-2011, 03:21 PM
I stay far away from Hawk and Dove. The comic shop owner was telling me that the solicits for the next issue says "Hawk and Dove fight Condor inside the White House" and we both laughed pretty hard.

Ezee E
10-27-2011, 06:07 PM
I like that in Metropolis, Apple is "Pineapple"

ledfloyd
10-28-2011, 06:05 AM
a lot of the charm present in the first issue of all-star western seems to have wore off. or maybe that was just the novelty. i'll give it another issue. also not sold on justice league dark yet. it seems so decompressed it's hard to get a gauge on it at this point.

Ezee E
10-28-2011, 06:51 AM
a lot of the charm present in the first issue of all-star western seems to have wore off. or maybe that was just the novelty. i'll give it another issue. also not sold on justice league dark yet. it seems so decompressed it's hard to get a gauge on it at this point.
Yeah. You are very right about All-Star Western having an awful second issue. The art doesn't seem to match the first issue is the first problem. Second, just very corny. We'll see.

Superman #2 keeps it up in the top tier of these new comics though. I might even think it's better then Morrison's Action Comics.

number8
10-28-2011, 12:56 PM
I'll keep buying All-Star because I like the rotating backup stories.

Ezee E
10-28-2011, 01:26 PM
Checked out Nightwing.

Blah.

Sven
11-02-2011, 06:42 PM
Alright, Swamp Thing 3 has got me back.

dreamdead
11-02-2011, 07:00 PM
Kinda bored by Snyder's Batman, even though I appreciate the care that he's placed on building the universe. Part of it is a general apathy to Capullo's artwork, but despite its obvious care, I don't feel all that invested.

JL Dark is taking a little longer than necessary to bring things together, but I am intrigued by the characters and concept. Janin's art still seems a little too match-heavy, but there's a way in which I think it works in these stories.

Batwoman remains the only thing I'm thoroughly devoted to, though I'm considering extending a stay into Animal Man...

Sven
11-02-2011, 07:01 PM
Now, I don't know much about writing about comic books, but the reviews on CBR are consistently embarrassing. About Swamp Thing 3 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=4094):

"Paquette and Ibanez work in concert here like one is the left hand and the other the right. Their styles don’t lead to confusion or annoyance in the slightest; their pages even showcase their different strengths and make the book all the more for it."

"The concepts feel eternal and constant and yet their presentation is new while also paying homage to the delivery method we prefer for this book."

"Credit also needs to go to Nathan Fairbairn for delivering crisp pages that rely on color and receive them in such style."

Huh? This guy either doesn't speak English very well or is terribly high.

number8
11-02-2011, 07:18 PM
Didn't I tell you to start your own comics journal?

Sven
11-02-2011, 07:24 PM
Didn't I tell you to start your own comics journal?

Hmmm. I don't think I recall the suggestion, but it is a good one. An opportunity to refine my writing chops anyway.

ledfloyd
11-03-2011, 04:13 AM
swamp thing was great this month and this was by far my favorite issue of animal man to date. somehow action comics was the weakest of the three books i read this week.

sevenarts
11-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Best issue of Swamp Thing yet, easily. I knew this would go somewhere great.

Animal Man continues to blow away everything else. The Hunters Three are unbelievably terrifying.

number8
11-03-2011, 01:40 PM
People who love 80's monster movies need to be reading Animal Man.

sevenarts
11-03-2011, 02:06 PM
I'm really struck by how Cronenbergian it is in a lot of its imagery. Fitting since, like Jamie Delano's run on the title, so far it's largely about transformation and unlocking previously unsuspected potential.

bac0n
11-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Changed my pulls list:

Dropped:
* Avengers (couldn't stand JRJR's art, the new artist isn't much better)
* New Avengers (writing gets a big meh and the new HAMMER arc isn't doing it for me)
* JLA (not a fan of Lee's art, and douchebag Green Lantern is not my cup of tea)

Added:
* Batwoman - biggest surprise of the last few years.
* DC Universe Presents - love Deadman

And I'm gonna check out Animal Man next week cuz I love 80s Monster Flicks ;-)

Sven
11-03-2011, 04:27 PM
I'm surprised you compare it to Delano's run, as I see much more Tom Veitch in it than I do Delano. Haven't read issue 3 yet (prob this weekend), but the first two lack the urgent poesy of Delano, absent the caroming introspection and organic family dynamism.

OMAC this week was weak. I'm surprised that Action Comics continues to be rather straightforward. Not a complaint, but Morrison talking up his crazy fifth-dimensional angle lead me to expect a more ambitious narrative. We'll see. Loved Ha's opening pages though. Tremendous. I was apprehensive at last month's hint of more Bleez in Red Lanterns, but issue 3 defied my worries. Bleez's reasoned bearing and traumatic emotional resurgences are terrifically handled, defying Benes's dated curves and ass shots (which are, until hilariously on the last page, thankfully toned down). That said, the action and layouts are operatic. And Milligan's persistence with the shifting perspectives is both playful and painful, providing a whole spectrum of dramatic hooks. One of my favorite current titles, DC or otherwise.

number8
11-03-2011, 04:30 PM
#3 is the first time Morrison used his signature staccato style, though. So it's not really as straight-forward as the previous two. This issue raised more vague questions than the first two combined.

Sven
11-03-2011, 04:34 PM
This issue raised more vague questions than the first two combined.

Very true, and I imagine with the newly emerged threat echoing back to Krypton's destruction, the next issue will be a corker. But I think the first issue was quite staccato, addictingly so.

sevenarts
11-03-2011, 05:28 PM
I'm surprised you compare it to Delano's run, as I see much more Tom Veitch in it than I do Delano. Haven't read issue 3 yet (prob this weekend), but the first two lack the urgent poesy of Delano, absent the caroming introspection and organic family dynamism.

I never read the Tom Veitch issues, I've heard they're not very good. The Delano comparison is definitely not perfect: Lemire doesn't have Delano's political consciousness or his overblown prose style, he's a very different kind of writer.

But I think Lemire has taken Delano's body horror and obsession with changing forms and magnified it through Travel Foreman's destabilizing artwork, and the result is one of the best comics I'm reading these days. Moreover, if anything I'd say that Lemire does the family stuff as well as Delano and in some respects even better - I never liked Delano's treatment of Ellen and the gaggle of lesbians he assembled around her, for example. Lemire and Foreman do a lot to define the family without words, just in body language and facial expressions, and little bits of dialogue that suggest how they're just a normal family caught up in a whole bunch of weirdness. Like the Ellen/Cliff scenes in #3.

Sven
11-03-2011, 06:09 PM
I'm hoping that after the arc is finished, I'll finally see what everyone else is apparently seeing in Animal Man. Could you offer up some examples? You mention that the creators do a lot to suggest things, but you haven't given specifics. What little bits of dialogue are you talking about? What is a "normal family" and how do Lemire and Foreman achieve that?

To me, the normalcy you refer to is a blank slate, which isn't very expressive or interesting. I wrote earlier in the thread that the family reads as artifice... there's not a lot of content offering direct information about them, and what little exists is rote. I seem to be missing all the alleged suggestiveness. But I'll report back after I read issue 3.

I think 8 has it right. The only reason I would have continued to purchase this one is for the oogly monsters.

number8
11-03-2011, 06:15 PM
Foreman's rendition of the family life is really lifeless, actually. Look at the interiors of the Bakers' house. It's very spare and doesn't look like it's lived in by a family. You can tell that Foreman gets bored with that kind of background stuff and just references without much personality put into them. #3 is the best issue simply because most of it takes place in The Red and allows surreal imagery, which I think Foreman excels at.

Sven
11-03-2011, 06:43 PM
Foreman's rendition of the family life is really lifeless, actually.

Lemire's writing of them is equally so, I'd say.

Sven
11-03-2011, 06:53 PM
Have you ever perused Foreman's livejournal? It's way awesome.

http://exiter.livejournal.com/

Sven
11-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Oh, forgot about Stormwatch. Still digging the mix of technologies used to create the images. The last few pages define bombastic. Love it.

sevenarts
11-03-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm hoping that after the arc is finished, I'll finally see what everyone else is apparently seeing in Animal Man. Could you offer up some examples? You mention that the creators do a lot to suggest things, but you haven't given specifics. What little bits of dialogue are you talking about? What is a "normal family" and how do Lemire and Foreman achieve that?

In #3 (which I guess you haven't read yet) there are a few moments with Ellen and Cliff that display a very recognizable, quirky mother/son dynamic that they maintain even in the face of all the weirdness that confronts them. She scolds him about his violent video games and then takes a controller and asks him how to play, stuff like that. I'm not sure how to describe it: to me it just feels like this is a very organic family dynamic and the ways in which they interact display a long history and familiarity that exists mostly off-page. The body language and facial expressions sell a lot of this too: in issue 2 there's this great 2-panel scene with Ellen where in the first panel, she's turned away from Buddy, arms crossed, her face shaded so her expression isn't visible, and then in the 2nd panel she turns to him with a snarl and lets out her anger and frustration. A few pages later Buddy affectionately kisses the back of her neck, a gesture he makes a few times which visually suggests some tension between intimacy and disconnection here, some reluctance on her part considering all the craziness her husband is unleashing on their family. Then there's the kitchen scene that opens the first issue, in which Lemire's dialogue between Buddy and Ellen does a very good job of suggesting a husband and wife casually treading over ground (economic difficulties, Buddy's superhero "career") they've been over many times before.

Basically, I think the domestic stuff is well done and establishes a decently fleshed-out family who I already care about so that as the horror/surreal elements become more pronounced, I have that grounding in the characters to want to watch them deal with all this horror.

I certainly don't think that Foreman's minimalist backgrounds suggest that he doesn't care about the domestic scenes. Instead, the plainness of the suburban domestic scenes provides a necessary visual contrast for the more unhinged scenes in the Red.

Sven
11-03-2011, 08:36 PM
Appreciated. I'm going to save any responses I have for later, after I've checked out the third issue.

number8
11-04-2011, 02:48 AM
Also, Delano was the one that introduced "The Red" concept, no? Lemire is obviously trying to tap into the ideas of his run, without really mimicking the narrative style.

number8
11-04-2011, 02:25 PM
Fuck fucking shit I knew it was a goddamn terrible idea. My comic shop had a sale yesterday, all recent issues for $1 each. I thought, hey, great opportunity to come in and give some titles I'm meh on a try for a buck, so I picked up all the back issues of Wonder Woman and Punisher and now I want to read the next issue but I can't fucking afford all this shit what the fuck.

dreamdead
11-09-2011, 06:21 PM
Picked up the latest issues of Batwoman (#3) and Wonder Woman (#2). The former benefits from a continued focus on innovative panel design, and is growing stronger as Bette becomes more of a character; I found Kate's dismissal of Bette to develop a beat too suddenly, as though Williams and Blackman needed to devote a bit more narrative attention to that transition. Liked some of the symmetry panels between Kate/Bette changing. The Flamebird costume, though, looks ridiculous in its small peak, so I'm interested in how Williams will detail it in the next issue.

Azzarello's script to WW feels less compressed with this issue, as narrative moments actually unfold and suggest new dimensions to character. Strife's character design is nicely juxtaposed against common feminine sexuality, which contrasts nicely with Diana's look. And the art is still such a nice treat to see, despite the cartoonish feel, which I typically don't vibe with.

Might check out Animal Man and Swamp Thing in the coming weeks...

Sven
11-09-2011, 09:41 PM
Demon Knights is getting thornier than expected. I like it.

Ezee E
11-09-2011, 11:10 PM
Time to catch up.

Read Grifter #1. Dumb.

number8
11-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Best cosplay ever.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6235/6324484147_4c3e4d93ee_z.jpg

Sven
11-11-2011, 03:29 PM
DCUP, after Deadman, is going to be a Challengers of the Unknown series written by DiDio and Ordway, illustrated by Ordway. Can't say I'm excited. I think complaints about DiDio being in charge despite his poor writing resume is sending him the wrong message. He corrals talent better than Marvel does, no doubt in my mind. But he's not a writer. At all.

Sven
11-15-2011, 11:43 PM
Looking over solicitations for the sixth cycle, I noticed a few interesting nuggs:

Sam Kieth doing something with THUNDER Agents.
An Arcudi/Corben backup in Men of War
Scott Kolins doing the art on OMAC (hmmm...)
J.P. Leon doing a flashback issue of Animal Man
Andy Kubert on Action

number8
11-15-2011, 11:51 PM
The Action solicit is awesome. The Morrison Superman teaming up with the Perez Superman. Amazing.

Sven
11-16-2011, 09:08 PM
Put a little growl behind the italics:

Batman is so good.

Sven
11-16-2011, 09:27 PM
Only other two I read this week are DCUP, which is still juggling nicely its introspection and zippy pace though I'm starting to doubt the story will ultimately be about much, and the continually intriguing Captain Atom. Flash's boots are awesome.

number8
11-18-2011, 02:59 PM
Put a little growl behind the italics:

Batman is so good.

Word. The mystery is delicious, and Capullo's art has improved dramatically. The compositions here are top notch.

Acapelli
11-21-2011, 04:59 PM
i'm not really feeling snyder's batman

all the stuff about owls being the bat's natural predator and bat's needing sunlight to survive seemed way too on the nose to me. capullo's style isn't that appealing to me either