The Killing

[Mara]

I figure we're probably going to be discussing enough spoilery stuff that we should keep it out of the television discussion thread.



i'm glad he's not a superhero TV detective but his attitude and disregard for what's considered the norm seems unrealistic to me for someone who is on their first case and, i imagine, wouldn't want to fuck it up.


I've noticed a trend towards realism when dealing with police in television by making them much more blue-collar and lower-middle-class. That's true-- most people who join the police force aren't very well educated. I feel like his character takes that trend to a somewhat alarming extreme. (I've never seen a cop, who is essentially one of the good guys, deliberately get school girls high to pump them for information. That was new.)

However, I feel like it might be pushing the bounds of realism. This isn't Harlan County-- the show takes place in Seattle, a major metropolis with a large police force. If someone was going to be promoted to homicide, there would be a wide pool of applicants to choose from, and I can't imagine Detective Scawny being at the top of the list. (I can't remember his name.)

I thought the main detective was more realistic, and I thought her actress was extremely talented.

[Morris Schæffer]

This is the Danish show? Supposed to be great! I've been meaning to buy season 1 to try it out.

[number8]

This is the Danish show? Supposed to be great! I've been meaning to buy season 1 to try it out.

No, they're talking about the remake.

[Mara]

This is the Danish show? Supposed to be great! I've been meaning to buy season 1 to try it out.

If you watch the original Danish, let us know if it's good.

[DavidSeven]

However, I feel like it might be pushing the bounds of realism. This isn't Harlan County-- the show takes place in Seattle, a major metropolis with a large police force. If someone was going to be promoted to homicide, there would be a wide pool of applicants to choose from, and I can't imagine Detective Scawny being at the top of the list. (I can't remember his name.)

But what if he was actually a really good detective? Would it matter if he had a "stoner" personality, especially if he was coming from working undercover in narcotics? I feel like part of this show is going to be focused on legitimizing this character in the eyes of the viewer. If you look on the Seattle PD page for the Homicide Unit, the only stat they give you is the solve rate (80%). I don't see a stat for the number of clean cut detectives.

[Acapelli]

he's a narco-vice guy, so of course he's gonna be a little rough around the edges, and the stuff they've shown him doing is nothing compared to what i've seen the LA strike team do in 4 seasons on the shield (which i've watched in the last month or so)

and why are you guys so convinced he actually got those teenagers high? i mean it's most likely what actually happened, but i wouldn't be so surprised to find out he tricked those kids into thinking they were high

[DavidSeven]

i wouldn't be so surprised to find out he tricked those kids into thinking they were high

This was my intuition as I was watching it. Not sure if it will ever be confirmed for us.

[Mara]

and why are you guys so convinced he actually got those teenagers high? i mean it's most likely what actually happened, but i wouldn't be so surprised to find out he tricked those kids into thinking they were high

That would be a pretty seat-of-the-pants gambit, since he has no idea if they are experienced with drugs or not. I think it was pot, but I don't necessarily think he's a stoner. He may just keep it around to get what he wants (which would also be useful as a narcotics officer.)

I'm really hoping they don't play with a romantic relationship between the two leads. They dropped a couple leads, like how he empathized with her child, and her fascination with the tattoo on his neck, but I don't think the show needs a romance there.

[Acapelli]

yeah it's a gambit, but those girls did not look like the type to be into any types of drugs. he's a cop, he should be able identify people who can be easily manipulated for information

[Raiders]

What does him having some weed and/or giving a couple puffs to high school girls have to do with him being an effective detective? It was a good gamble and he got what he needed; he found the murder site.

I'm not sure if it is any more "realistic" than the L&O detectives with the high moral codes, but it certainly felt more sincere.

[number8]

Psch. Big deal. 80% of the cops on The Wire are drunk on the job.

[ledfloyd]

he's a narco-vice guy, so of course he's gonna be a little rough around the edges, and the stuff they've shown him doing is nothing compared to what i've seen the LA strike team do in 4 seasons on the shield (which i've watched in the last month or so)
because the shield is obviously going for unaffected realism. :P

i think mara's point makes sense, unless this guy was unnaturally efficient on the vice squad i can't see why they would've tapped him for homicide over someone else. he seems a bit more like a caricature than a character. this is really a minor complaint though and otherwise i'm loving the show.

has anyone seen forbrydelsen? i'm wondering how his character compares.

[[ETM]]

If you watch the original Danish, let us know if it's good.

Have you read the comments on icine?

[Mara]

;336797']Have you read the comments on icine?

I stopped because some people were making me crazy.

[[ETM]]

I stopped because some people were making me crazy.

Indeed. I should have stopped too. I haven't been as frustrated in a long time.

[ledfloyd]

i just went and lurked and i'm with you two.

[DavidSeven]

I took a look at the thread, and the complaints are whirling over my head, too. I actually lived in Seattle for the first 25 years of my life. I could tell it wasn't actually shot there, but I thought they captured the ambiance of the city quite nicely without "exotifying" it (whatever that even means). The other complaints seem to be about formal execution, writing, and the casting. I say it's too soon to tell about the latter two variables, but as far as execution, I thought this was at the top tier as far as pilots go. No telling how the casting will pan out, but it seems pretty damn evident that they were focused on things beyond name recognition and objective attractiveness. That alone gives me hope for these actors.

[amberlita]

Yeah, the girls weren't high. You don't get high off of one puff and 30 seconds of effect. "This is great weed, I'm so stoned right now" is just what lame non-pot smokers say to try and look cool to someone they are trying to impress, like a tall-mysterious-pot-smoking-danger-cop. The scene was great though. It seemed befitting of his character already to do his detective work in a rather unorthodox fashion but nonetheless effective.

Anyway, I thought the pilot was great. I get a little tired of the constant presence of rain. Reminds me of Se7en, but hey, I don't live in Seattle so maybe it's really like that. I'm also hoping they find a quick way for the main character to stay and finish the case so we don't have a season full of excuses as to why she can't leave for another day and then another day and then...you get the point.

[ledfloyd]

i got curious last night and watched the first few episodes of forbrydelsen. the first two episodes of the amc series roughly correspond with the first three of the danish one (though i think i had the mole in the mayoral candidate's office spoiled for me). it's a remarkably faithful remake, the first hour is almost scene for scene. they streamlined a subplot in the second two episodes where it looked like one of the candidate's volunteers was responsible but then it turned out the car was stolen. also, her son hasn't been seen as of yet.

the one big difference is the portrayal of rookie detective. he's portrayed as impulsive and tempermental in the danish series but he's not constantly making sleazy sexual comments nor does the pot scene exist. hard to say which i prefer at this point, but i'll probably wait until the killing is finished to continue so as not to reveal any more substantial spoilers.

[Benny Profane]

What does him having some weed and/or giving a couple puffs to high school girls have to do with him being an effective detective? It was a good gamble and he got what he needed; he found the murder site.



It likely wasn't the murder site since in the first scene she's being chased in the woods where the body was found.

Strange that the bloody bed and walls were completely untouched by whoever did that. You'd think that they would try to cover up the evidence. Though there's a chance it was unrelated to Rosie's death, we don't know.

Be interesting to see how the political angle plays out. I got hints that the councilman's mistress is involved in the murder but can't really explain why.

[ledfloyd]

Be interesting to see how the political angle plays out. I got hints that the councilman's mistress is involved in the murder but can't really explain why.
i have an inkling that with the mole in his organization the whole thing might have been set up by someone to sabotage his campaign, but i imagine it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Lucky]

i have an inkling that with the mole in his organization the whole thing might have been set up by someone to sabotage his campaign, but i imagine it's a bit more complicated than that.

I hope so. I'm really hoping this show can deliver a satisfying mystery web. The chessboard is set, for sure. I hope the game is worth watching. I'm going to be disappointed if this show pulls a wild card out of the hat during the season finale a la Veronica Mars. Now in VM's defense, unraveling the mysteries wasn't the main reason I watched the show, but it kind of irked me how there wasn't a hope the viewer could figure it out before the final episode.

[ledfloyd]

another strong hour. i'm warming up to holder (that's his name right?) a bit.

[Mara]

That bathtub drowning scene was brutal.

A strong hour. The crime is getting pretty gruesome. I hope we focus more on the mystery and less on the sordid details.

[DavidSeven]

Still solid, but I hope they find a way to tie the campaign closer to the mystery soon. It seems like such an aside at this point compared to what's happening with the detectives and the family. I'm sure everything is closely knit together, but hopefully it won't take an entire season to get there.

[ledfloyd]

A strong hour. The crime is getting pretty gruesome. I hope we focus more on the mystery and less on the sordid details.
it's almost relentlessly bleak. nearly every character has ulterior motives and/or a capability to do awful things. it manages to do this without relying too heavily on shock or over-the-top awfulness (though that last scene is definitely in that territory), which is laudable. but even cynical me is looking for a life affirming gooey human center to this whole mess.

[[ETM]]

That bathtub drowning scene was brutal.

She's been fantastic from the first second.

I think the phone video is a false lead.
I don't think that's Rosie, but her friend.

[ledfloyd]

;337691']I think the phone video is a false lead.
I don't think that's Rosie, but her friend.
i could be wrong but didn't the drug dealer say to her ex "they know we were with rosie"?

[Mara]

Even if it is Rosie, they didn't kill her. That would be too easy. I'm compiling my list of unusual suspects, including the current mayor and Jasper's father.

[ledfloyd]

Even if it is Rosie, they didn't kill her. That would be too easy. I'm compiling my list of unusual suspects, including the current mayor and Jasper's father.
yeah, there's no way.

i like betty draper's brother, but that also might be too easy.

[Benny Profane]

"Housewives and cheerleaders" doing meth, as per Holder. Anyone notice when Linden asked about Kris Nichols, that's when Rosie's mom dropped the wine glass? Might be a connection, the mom might be a methhead.

[Thirdmango]

I'm only halfway into the first episode so I haven't read anything you folks have written, but I will say, it's weird seeing Ensign Ro in something.

[[ETM]]

I'm only halfway into the first episode so I haven't read anything you folks have written, but I will say, it's weird seeing Ensign Ro in something.

You haven't watched any of her numerous recent TV roles? BSG, True Blood, In Treatment, 24... hell, even Homicide. It's actually been hard for me to see Michelle Forbes as Ro Laren for quite some time now.

[Hugh_Grant]

I realize I'm probably the only Match Cutter who watched Cold Case, so I can't help but see the comparisons. (Both shows were executive produced by Veena Sud.)

I'm enjoying it so far.

Whenever I see Billy Campbell, I reminded how good Once and Again was.

[[ETM]]

I realize I'm probably the only Match Cutter who watched Cold Case

I watched "Waking the Dead". Enjoyed it immensely, way more than what I saw of "Cold Case".

[Thirdmango]

Once I looked her up on wikipedia I remembered she was in BSG. I've watched all of 24 and I can't remember where she was in that. I hated True Blood after four episodes and haven't seen the other shows. She's just so ingrained in my mind as Ensign Ro.

Also talk about weird, the main actress went to BYU and is now married to Alan Ruck.

[Mara]

Also talk about weird, the main actress went to BYU and is now married to Alan Ruck.

Rumor is she's active. I'm fascinated and she might be my new hero.

[Lucky]

That bathtub drowning scene was brutal.

Perhaps I've been forever spoiled by the realism in the Buffy ep "The Body", but all of the grief scenes with the family rang false and cliche to me during this most current episode. Bathtub scene not as much as the scenes with the children. To no fault of Michelle Forbes or the other actors, I blame whoever penned this ep.

Child: "How did Rosie die?"
*Dad stops. Speechless and stunned.*
Child: "It's ok, daddy. We don't have to talk about it."

Then, minutes later.

*Child sets an extra plate at the table.*
*Dad stops. Speechless and stunned.*
Child: "Sorry, I forgot."
Dad: "It's ok, why don't you leave it out."

It's probably too early in the series to start justly criticizing, but the writing is definitely the weak link overall. Aside from successfully sketching a handful of lead character portraits, I'm starting to see signs of slips into more formulaic police drama. After a quick scan through imdb, I happened to notice the executive producer on this series also produces Cold Case. ...that doesn't quite surprise me with how it's going so far. It's not a subpar show by any means and I'm committed for the whole season, but I have yet to see that spark of greatness anywhere outside of the casting.

I love to be surprised, though.

[Mara]

Perhaps I've been forever spoiled by the realism in the Buffy ep "The Body"

Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to see anything like that again. That episode comes from the unique background of dealing with characters that have been developed over five years, so you really, really care about them, and then combines them with some of the most brutally honest writing I've ever seen about death and grief. It's the best of the best.

But with that said, I think the depiction of grief on this show is better than most just because it's not glossing over it and moving on, which seems to be the television way of handling it.

[ledfloyd]

if this show keeps teasing us with suspects at the end of every episode and dismissing them in the first 5 minutes of the next i'm going to get tired of it rather quickly.

[Mara]

if this show keeps teasing us with suspects at the end of every episode and dismissing them in the first 5 minutes of the next i'm going to get tired of it rather quickly.

It's not nice to be jerked around. If instead of having and then dismissing suspects, I'd like it if each suspect was a piece in the puzzle to figuring out what happened.

Pretty good episode, though.

[DavidSeven]

I felt like the last episode had a better rhythm than the third, but it definitely feels like they're skirting pretty close to formula. Hoping they don't slip too far into this standard procedural structure they seem to be setting up for themselves. Next few episodes are going to be key in determining the breakout potential of this show, I think.

[Raiders]

I like that the show is keeping true to being a TV police procedural but actually making it compelling and interesting by focusing more on the characters, interactions and the overall personal effect on each of them Rosie Larsen's death has had. The grand plot mechanics will likely be pretty formulaic, but I embrace that given how the show uses it to fit in with its overall milieu.

[DavidSeven]

Gotta say, that moment with Rosie's mom and Sterling was powerful stuff.

[Benny Profane]

This show reminds me a lot of The Sweet Hereafter.

Even Gwen kinda looks like Sarah Polley.

I think Linden has an interesting look about her, and I'm liking her performance for the most part, but there's too many times when I notice that she's putting on her "acting face".

Didn't they say in the second episode that that was Rosie's blood on the walls of The Cage? I thought I heard that. Also, Chris seemed pretty worried up until the point when they showed the "rape" video. I don't think his involvement in this is finished.

Good ending to this episode. I also liked the bonding scene between Jack and the stepfather.

[Mara]

Didn't they say in the second episode that that was Rosie's blood on the walls of The Cage? I thought I heard that. Also, Chris seemed pretty worried up until the point when they showed the "rape" video. I don't think his involvement in this is finished.

I think they said "blood type." There's no way all that was from a bloody nose, although I suspect that Sterling was hurt much worse than she implied and is covering.

Yeah, Chris was on the phone saying something like, "They know." So, there's something to know.

[Benny Profane]

WRT to an above post about the occasional weaknesses of the writing, a gem from the creepy funeral director:

"You would like her in a nice dress, wouldn't you?"

"No, a potato sack is just fine, thanks anyway."

[ledfloyd]

weakest episode yet? i'm glad they didn't discard bennet as a suspect in the first 5 or 10 minutes, but tonight was the first time during the series that i've felt... well... bored. to be fair, i felt similarly at this point in rubicon's run. and it really got it together after the halfway point.

also, i am sick of holder.

[Mara]

weakest episode yet?

I didn't think it was particularly weak, and I wasn't bored. I'm starting to have a feel for the characters, and I thought Bennett's story is really kind of creepy. I don't know if he's the killer, but there's something really wrong with him.

By the way, the candidate just struck me as a slick politician so far, but that moment in the grocery store seemed genuinely kind. He might be a real person after all.

[amberlita]

There is still something that I'm digging about the pace of the show, but I agree they are mishandling Holder. I like the actor and I like what the character could be, but I prefer the way they treated him in the first copule episodes, sketchy but skilled and working outside the box. Now he's suspicious and worthless. All he seems to want is for Linden to leave and to arrest the first person they suspect and bitch when neither happens. What's worse is that now we are getting scenes of him in dodging conversations. I'll be supremely disappointed if he turns into a suspect or worse, the killer.

[Raiders]

What's worse is that now we are getting scenes of him in dodging conversations. I'll be supremely disappointed if he turns into a suspect or worse, the killer.

I can't say with any certainty of course, but I feel confident it isn't going in that direction.

[DavidSeven]

I actually really liked this episode. It feels like they're finally starting to tie some of these threads together and developing some intriguing plot lines that look like they can sustain interest for the rest of the season. I want to see where they take things with Rosie's father, and I thought the stuff with Holder was actually pretty interesting. Whose mailbox was that? I look forward to finding out.

[Thirdmango]

Well I'm caught up, I'm not as invested as everyone else seems to be. It's fun but I'm not convinced at this point. The actor who plays Bennet is in Being Erica which is one of my guilty pleasures so I'm glad to see him upgrade to american television.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I just finished the two-hour premiere. Not very impressed. Sure, the mystery is intriguing, but the show is really corny and riddled with cliche moments. The reactions to the deaths, the background and stories of the characters, etc. Does it get any better, or is the premiere pretty indicative of the general style of the show? If so, I'm not going to continue.

[ledfloyd]

weakest episode yet?
best episode yet?

[DavidSeven]

I just finished the two-hour premiere. Not very impressed. Sure, the mystery is intriguing, but the show is really corny and riddled with cliche moments. The reactions to the deaths, the background and stories of the characters, etc. Does it get any better, or is the premiere pretty indicative of the general style of the show? If so, I'm not going to continue.

It's hard to say at this point because the story is still developing. The pilot is definitely indicative of the pacing and tone of subsequent episodes. The reactions to the death continue to be heavily focused on. If you didn't like those elements, then I'm not sure the next few episodes will sell you. I really liked the first two episodes though, so I can't really put myself in your mindset.

[DavidSeven]

best episode yet?

Most promising, for sure. Can't wait for next week. I really like how they've developed Richmond's character over the last two episodes.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I just find the intense melodrama eye-roll worthy, and so many moments (Captain and Linden's son "boxing" in hallway, Dad seeing "Happy Daddy's Day" picture, mom rolled up on daughter's bed, dad crying in the rain, etc.) feel like they were taken from the "Intense Family Drama Handbook." Otherwise, the show is intriguing. I'm interested in the mystery, the performances are adequate, and the slow-burn pace of the show is nice. I will say that it feels a bit Twin Peaks Lite. I'll probably give it another episode or so, but I don't think I'm sticking around unless things improve.

[Mara]

I'll probably give it another episode or so, but I don't think I'm sticking around unless things improve.

I'm very interested in the mystery, but I still feel like this is a show that could go either way in terms of quality. It's still playing out.

I agree that the show doesn't change tonally from the first couple episodes. (Or, at least, not yet.)

[ledfloyd]

I'll probably give it another episode or so, but I don't think I'm sticking around unless things improve.
for me they dipped a bit then picked up this week.

i'm with mara in that i'm still very undecided on whether or not the show is good, but i'm in for the long haul at this point.

[amberlita]

Other than the beat the Councilman had purposefully running into Rosie's mom at the grocery store, this was the first time I found him and his storyline sympathetic. Something terribly sad to me about how he looked standing there in that empty studio. It's the same sympathy I feel every time I see a lonely person realizing their defeat.

Or maybe it was just Neko Case's doing.

[Benny Profane]

Or maybe it was just Neko Case's doing.

"That echo chorus lied to me."

Love that song, and it was great placement. I agree with led, strongest episode so far. Though the downstairs neighbor calling Linden about the telescope guy seemed a little too convenient.

[Mara]

I'm really annoyed by the television myth that nobody will tell you anything about a murder unless you ask them. "I saw people carrying around a dead body! I hope someone asks me about them."

[Benny Profane]

I'm really annoyed by the television myth that nobody will tell you anything about a murder unless you ask them. "I saw people carrying around a dead body! I hope someone asks me about them."

Possible he's a little too wack to be trusted. His story probably ends up getting debunked in a future ep.

My theory is that Sterling was the girl in the blanket. She went to Bennet's after the incident in the Cage and they took her to a doctor or something.

[Mara]

Possible he's a little too wack to be trusted. His story probably ends up getting debunked in a future ep.

There's certainly something fishy about it. For one thing, in the very first scene we saw Rosie being chased through the woods. She wouldn't have been well enough to do that if she'd been injured/unconscious just before hand.

Also, dumb preggo wife was very candid when the detectives first visited her. If she'd been complicit in a murder, she wouldn't have been opening up and letting them wander her house.

[Mara]

I am beginning to doubt the ability of this show to hold my attention long-term. I'll finish the season, though.

[ledfloyd]

I am beginning to doubt the ability of this show to hold my attention long-term. I'll finish the season, though.
agreed. the characters just aren't there, and i'm getting tired of the quickly debunked cliffhangers.

i thought this was one of the more solid hours of the show, but overall? eh.

[[ETM]]

Yeah. Michelle Forbes is killing it out there, but I'm just not feeling it from the rest of the cast, even though no one is bad. Also, I'm still not certain this single murder plot required more than the usual episode of Castle.

[Raiders]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks the atmsophere and craft are pretty impeccable. I think the way it slowly unfolds the mystery between the personal drama is pretty compelling and well done; certainly something more than a single episode could convey.

[Mara]

I like the atmosphere.

I guess I don't feel like there is real forward momentum to the story. Everything goes in circles and ends up almost where it began (both the main murder plot and the subplots, like the will-she-won't-she-leave plot, and the campaign plot.) I don't really feel like we're solving a puzzle, more that we're just being teased with false leads and false hope. Perhaps that's true to life, but it doesn't make for compelling storytelling.

[Benny Profane]

I like the atmosphere.

I guess I don't feel like there is real forward momentum to the story. Everything goes in circles and ends up almost where it began (both the main murder plot and the subplots, like the will-she-won't-she-leave plot, and the campaign plot.) I don't really feel like we're solving a puzzle, more that we're just being teased with false leads and false hope. Perhaps that's true to life, but it doesn't make for compelling storytelling.

The show has an identity crisis. Now it's veering towards American-Muslim relations.

Perhaps the show's biggest problem is that Linden is turning out to be a pretty weak character.

I was feeling pretty good about the show after the second to last episode. I'm feeling equally as skeptical after the last one.

For whatever reason, I think the killer is the mouse-y guy who works with Stan. What's his name?

[Mara]

For whatever reason, I think the killer is the mouse-y guy who works with Stan. What's his name?

The part where he cleaned and changed the little boy's sheets was odd. I felt like it was supposed to be heartwarming, but it was very creepy.

[[ETM]]

I've been thinking it's him for a while now. It makes too much sense.

[Irish]

Caught up. Thought the first three episodes were absolutely amazing. Shot like a European crime thriller, so not surprised to find this based on a Danish original.

Amazed that a cast most famous for supporting and walk on roles are hitting it out of the park as much as they are, especially Mierelle Enos and Joel Kinnaman.

After the first three, I find the series frustrating. For every step it takes forward, it takes two steps back.

Step forward: The female lead isn't tall, skinny, busty blonde walking around in fuck me pumps and a push up, looking like she just walked off the cover of Vogue. The two partners genuinely dislike each other. The junior partner is a scumbag, but not TV-movie-Serpico-style "dirty." His background in Vice actually informs on his character, so it doesn't feel like this guy came into existence 5 minutes before the writer typed the first line of dialogue.

Step back: Lead detective is obsessed with a past case! Grieving father isn't just some workaday joe, but has mob ties! Young, good looking politico has principles, dammit, and is fighting the corporate machine! Snotty rich white kid has an authoritarian father! Black guy is a Muslim! Gimme a break.

First big mistake: Advertising this as a police procedural, a puzzle ("Who Killed Rosie Larsen?") when the tone isn't about that at all. It's not structured nor delivered like a procedural, so why sell it that way? This is the kind of show that, when the season ends, the name of the killer should feel almost inconsequential to the audience.

Second big mistake: Including so much of that boring political story in every episode when it's tenuously connected to the rest of the show. We're 7 episodes in, for godsakes and the only thing on the line for three of these characters is ... they lose the job they're applying for.

Third big mistake: Making Rosie's brothers so young. You can't write a helluva lot of subplots around 8 year olds. The family needs to be in the thing more. Giving Rosie teenage brothers would have allowed that. I feel for the parents, but there's only so many times you can show Ro Laren crying over the kitchen sink.

I could care less about who is going to be the next fake mayor of Seattle. Give me more of the cops and more of the family. Especially the two cops.

[ledfloyd]

i read something this week about how nobody seems terribly interested in who rosie was and it leaves a big gaping hole at the show's center that sucks the life out of it. it's a fair point, one i mostly agree with. to draw a comparison to twin peaks (i know, i know) who laura palmer was was a crucial part of the show's genetic makeup. which i think points to the larger problem with the series, the show doesn't seem to care who any of these people are. they hint at shady areas in their pasts that leave them open to suspicions of guilt, but beyond that i'm not sure i know who any of these people really are. i don't know what motivates them, i can't make heads or tails of their actions and whether or not they're in character. this week they finally pulled the curtain back on linden and holder and lent them some humanity, but i'm afraid it might be too late at this point.

[Benny Profane]

That cage match, and the dialogue at said cage match, was the most absurd thing this show has offered.

[Raiders]

Some great moments in the episode, but the political angle is getting too far from the central drama. I loved it when his success/failure in the election seemed hinged on the outcome of the murder investigation; it gave a great overall social perspective to the way Rosie's death has created a butterfly effect for the entire city. But, now with cliche after cliche in the political discourse, I'm quickly losing interest in that aspect.

Still, the personal moments are pretty great. The push-pull Stan has been feeling is palpably agonizing and I love the defeat of Forbes' character when she can't reach him, realizing what she has wrought. And that ending, with a certain character pummeling a rock in a fit of anger as Stan beats up another man... yeah, suspect number one right there.

[ledfloyd]

i'm watching til the end of the season, because for some reason, unbeknownst to me, i feel like i need to know who killed her. but this week just proved how much this show likes to jerk you around. not only is bennet innocent, he was doing a wonderful thing for this girl, and now his life's been completely ruined by it. way to waste several weeks on a story about muslim american issues that had nothing to do with rosie larsen at all really.

also, richmond is spending 5 million dollars to court the somali vote? am i completely uninformed or is there actually a substantial somali population in seattle?

[Mara]

not only is bennet innocent, he was doing a wonderful thing for this girl, and now his life's been completely ruined by it.

Which makes it ridiculous that he would have lied about it to the police this entire time.

I'm finishing the season, but I'm annoyed.

[Benny Profane]

Which makes it ridiculous that he would have lied about it to the police this entire time.



And to his wife. That could have saved us a few episodes right there. I'd rather watch more of Sterling's self-loathing or Jasper with his punchable face.

The "KILLER" being written on the blackboard, and him not even erasing it when he walks in, is insulting to any thinking person's intelligence. Moments like that are piling up, it seems.

And did anyone care if Richmond made that shot or not?

[Raiders]

I liked him not even acknowledging the writing on the board. I actually think it is more believable than otherwise, especially considering his own behavior of not acknowledging the elephant in the room (he showed up to work knowing he wasn't welcome and waited until the last possible second to deny and bring up Rosie when Stan took him the first time).

Him not telling his wife about the girl is strange, but of course he wouldn't tell the police. They "kidnapped" her and are sending her away without her mother's consent based on a supposed ritual. That's illegal, humanity and nobility be damned. I'm sure he still believed he would perservere and not be arrested or convicted for the murder since he didn't do it and until that time he is arrested or brought in for intense grilling, he doesn't have to provide an alibi like Mohammed did.

[Mara]

Him not telling his wife about the girl is strange, but of course he wouldn't tell the police. They "kidnapped" her and are sending her away without her mother's consent based on a supposed ritual. That's illegal, humanity and nobility be damned.

Yes, but female genital mutilation is illegal in the United States, as is underage marriage or forcible marriage. If they had gotten social services involved, they would not have had to kidnap her. I would believe that for whatever reason they would prefer the kidnapping scenario, but I wouldn't believe they would protect the scheme at the expense of being wanted for murder.

[Acapelli]

kidnapping is kidnapping, no matter how good your intentions are. i'm with spinal

who else thinks that what happened to bennett is going to reflect badly on the mayor after the revelation that he seemingly didn't have anything to do with rosie's murder?

[Irish]

The Bennet subplot is fine.

What kills the momentum of the show is the political stuff that isn't connected to anything else.

[Raiders]

Yes, but female genital mutilation is illegal in the United States, as is underage marriage or forcible marriage. If they had gotten social services involved, they would not have had to kidnap her. I would believe that for whatever reason they would prefer the kidnapping scenario, but I wouldn't believe they would protect the scheme at the expense of being wanted for murder.

Bennet didn't really know he was "wanted." He knew he was being investigated and was a "person of interest" but he has displayed all along a rather stubborn refusal to acknowledge how guilty he looks, and he didn't know they were about to get the warrant and arrest him.

I don't know, I believe it perfectly fine. I'm not sure that they had any proof of the mother's intentions other than what was relayed to them and the customs and traditions they know about. They were acting impulsively to protect the girl and for her and their own benefit Bennet was willing to risk being publicly shamed over Rosie's murder to protect what he was doing.

Seems fine to me.

[Mara]

Bennet didn't really know he was "wanted." He knew he was being investigated and was a "person of interest" but he has displayed all along a rather stubborn refusal to acknowledge how guilty he looks, and he didn't know they were about to get the warrant and arrest him.

Yeah, that's true.

[ledfloyd]

it's not the plausibility that bothered me so much as the clear audience baiting that was going on. a guy named mohammed? they had a girl locked up somewhere? they're clearly child raping terrorists. hey guess what? they were saints! don't you feel guilty now! and now he's getting killed because some of the characters made the same xenophobic assumptions you did!

[[ETM]]

And did anyone care if Richmond made that shot or not?

Richmond said he'd take the ball if he made the shot. Him putting the ball on his desk was surely hint enough.

[Benny Profane]

;347571']Richmond said he'd take the ball if he made the shot. Him putting the ball on his desk was surely hint enough.

Oh I know he made the shot. I just didn't care if he did or didn't.

[[ETM]]

Oh I know he made the shot. I just didn't care if he did or didn't.

Ah, okay. Well, I guess resigning from the race would have made the storyline even more pointless. I'm still hoping it connects somehow.

[Benny Profane]

So Belko doesn't tell his best friend/mentor Stan that Rosie was at the house that night because he was worried about getting in trouble with Mopey Mitch? His daughter was killed and he has info that could lead to the murderer but he holds onto it. OK.

And Linden doesn't check the house's phone records to see who Rosie was talking to, she just stumbles past the Adela Ferry on her jogging route. OK.

They also haven't checked the history of Stan's ATM card that was found on her at the crime scene. OK.

Never thought to question all the people who had access to the house until day 10. OK.

Didn't check cab companies to see how she left the house to go meet Adela, and where she went. OK.

Linden tells Mitch in the last episode that they're about to arrest Bennett. In every other episode she's been beyond tight-lipped about the case. Telling would be a fire-able offense. But wasn't she already told to leave anyway?

Salon had a piece the other day about how season 2 should focus on the complete and utter ineptitude of these police officers.

[Raiders]

So Belko doesn't tell his best friend/mentor Stan that Rosie was at the house that night because he was worried about getting in trouble with Mopey Mitch? His daughter was killed and he has info that could lead to the murderer but he holds onto it. OK.

I thought about this, but he doesn't seem overly bright, not to mention he might have weighed how helpful his information would be against the suspicion that would be cast on him and his likely banishment from being "part of the family" he seems to cherish so much. I bought it.


And Linden doesn't check the house's phone records to see who Rosie was talking to, she just stumbles past the Adela Ferry on her jogging route. OK.

I wondered about this. There still is a chance they can get the record for who she was talking to. She was jogging the very next morning. Phone companies aren't open 24 hours a day.


They also haven't checked the history of Stan's ATM card that was found on her at the crime scene. OK.

I thought they did this immediately. If not, then that is definitely silly.


Never thought to question all the people who had access to the house until day 10. OK.

They didn't know Rosie went home until this episode, so it would seem rather immaterial.


Didn't check cab companies to see how she left the house to go meet Adela, and where she went. OK.

Again, it is only the next morning at the end. There is no reason to think they won't be doing this next episode.


Linden tells Mitch in the last episode that they're about to arrest Bennett. In every other episode she's been beyond tight-lipped about the case. Telling would be a fire-able offense.

And every time she has had to be tight-lipped and be berated by the grieving mother, she has looked distraught. She broke down in her conviction Bennet was guilty and it was a mistake she ackowledges.


But wasn't she already told to leave anyway?

Well, yes. That's the whole conflict for her this season.


Salon had a piece the other day about how season 2 should focus on the complete and utter ineptitude of these police officers.

I'm not certain they are inept. We are so used to TV officers thinking of the best posible route and all possible ideas immediately, not to mention jumps in time. I agree there are a couple things that don't add up (especially if they didn't check the ATM card) but to me it has felt like a pretty honest look at being a police detective.

[Benny Profane]

Man, I hate doing all those quote boxes, so I will do this instead:

- I am pretty sure phone companies are open 24 hours. Not to the public, but definitely to police. Even if they do contact the phone company next episode, there is still a lack of investigative work done by the police on this show. Almost everything they unturn is by pure coincidence, other than finding out about The Cage.

- They didn't know she went home, but people with access to the house is not immaterial. After all, they didn't even do a timeline until this last episode.

- There is definitely reason to believe they won't follow up because these detectives rarely follow up on anything. Nose bleed causing a river of blood on a wall, why Rosie left a dance early and returned a book to Bennett who she knew was at the same dance, etc.

- I don't think Linden was distraught about keeping things from Mitch. I remember a couple times she rolls her eyes, after Mitch tracks her down to say one sentence to her and then walks away. Can she be an accessory to attempted murder for leaking such sensitive, illegal information?

- I know her conflict is staying on the job versus leaving for a new life, but I thought she was clearly told by her CO to leave. She gets all upset in the car, and then she shows up the next day like nothing happened.

- I think they are definitely inept.

[Raiders]

-They didn't know she went home, but people with access to the house is not immaterial. After all, they didn't even do a timeline until this last episode.

For clarification, they had made a timeline before (not sure if it was shown), but this episode had them filling in the gap they hadn't been able to determine. I feel like they even said as much ("we can make a more complete timeline" or something like that).

Whatever. I don't want to revert to anecdotal stories by my uncle, a detective who hates detective shows, so I'll just say that I think there are a lot more coincidences and overlooked material in real investigations that most people would be lead to believe. I dunno. I don't really see them being inept, just average. Perhaps that is why I seem to be the only one here who still really likes the show.

I'm not even saying this is all anything more than poor writing, but for me, it works in the show's favor.

[ledfloyd]

i think it was a card for a video rental store, not an atm card.

i agree with spinal that they probably aren't terribly inept by average police standards. however, i think the show wants us to believe linden is some kind of supercop, which is problematic. really though, that's not why i'm not enjoying the show, it's being baited with all these red herrings who obviously did it, only to be provided with some key piece of evidence the next week. that and the show's nearly complete disregard of character.

[ledfloyd]

so, they needed to do this episode as episode 4 or 5. because it was great and had a lot of character development that almost feels like it's too little too late at this point. another thing? not a single scene with the politician.

[Raiders]

Probably the best episode of the season from a stand-alone perspective, but yeah, way too late.

Enos and Kinnaman are fantastic though.

[Acapelli]

didn't think i would like the episode based on the description, but it was excellent

what i've read is that they've been pretty much following the timeline of the original danish series, which had a 20-episode first season instead of a 13-episode one, which i think has really hurt the show so far

[ledfloyd]

i'm curious if the danish series can really be as good as people say. i should probably watch through it.

[Mara]

The placement of this episode is, I agree, baffling. This should have been the third or fourth episode.

Instead, in the pen-penultimate episode of a murder mystery, we completely drop the freaking murder mystery. Plus, the campaign side-plot, but who cares.

It was a good episode, but it feels like a good episode of a completely different show. Anyone else reminded of "The Suitcase," where we take away all but the two main characters and let them fight and bond and reveal?

P.S.-- how un-P.C. to have the Native American ladies be such bitches.

[Mara]

By the way, what are the chances that Rosie used her dad's debit card, which was the first clue found? Which means that they never checked the most recent charges on it. Which means they are beyond stupid.

[ledfloyd]

yeah, it was suitcase-esque.

[amberlita]

By the way, what are the chances that Rosie used her dad's debit card, which was the first clue found? Which means that they never checked the most recent charges on it. Which means they are beyond stupid.

No, my bet is that she is making deposits into someone else's account. Perhaps this is how it will tie into the campaign?

And yes, I immediately thought of The Suitcase as well. Did this show get renewed for a second season?

[Benny Profane]

Per The Killing, casinos in the rainiest part of the country have unsheltered ATMs outdoors. OK.

[Mara]

No, my bet is that she is making deposits into someone else's account. Perhaps this is how it will tie into the campaign?


Well, the savings account is empty (missing $16K) but I thought that was because Stan bought a secret house.

[Irish]

Probably the best episode of the season from a stand-alone perspective, but yeah, way too late.

Enos and Kinnaman are fantastic though.

Agreed on both counts.

Really thought they should have taken the approach in this episode and applied it to the rest of the season.

[[ETM]]

Per The Killing, casinos in the rainiest part of the country have unsheltered ATMs outdoors. OK.

People already never carry umbrellas anyway. Either the rain is different, or everything is much more resistant over there.

[Mara]

;351455']People already never carry umbrellas anyway. Either the rain is different, or everything is much more resistant over there.

Umbrellas are for the weak.

[Raiders]

;351455']People already never carry umbrellas anyway. Either the rain is different, or everything is much more resistant over there.

In truth, I don't actually know anyone who uses an umbrella.

[[ETM]]

In truth, I don't actually know anyone who uses an umbrella.

You're from Seattle?

[[ETM]]

Umbrellas are for the weak.

Said the wet and/or sick. :D

[Raiders]

;351462']You're from Seattle?

No, I was just pointing out that in thinking about it, most people I know choose to just get wet.

[[ETM]]

You are a weird country after all.

[Mara]

I love the scene in Sports Night when Jeremy and his girlfriend argue about the logic of an umbrella.


JENNY: I don't believe it.

JEREMY: What?

JENNY: You really can't stand in the rain without an umbrella.

JEREMY: Yes, Jenny, I learned when I was young that if I do that I'll get wet.

JENNY: And I learned when I was young if I get wet I'll dry off. I learned not to be troubled by water falling from the sky. I learned when I was young that things that frightened me might not be frightening after all. That possibly the only reason I was frightened was because I was young.

JEREMY: It was raining when you left your apartment. You don't have an umbrella 'cause you don't have an umbrella. Only you won't admit it 'cause you are Miss I-Meant-to-Do-That. "I'm free and open and unafraid of rain. I'm wet 'cause this is how I meant it to be. I have a degree in dance from Juilliard. I make X-rated movies now but that's how I meant it to be." You think I'm timid? God forbid you should admit you're not a tough guy. You know I don't think my concern about how do I explain you to my parents is all that hard to understand. But I do know it'd be a much easier job if I didn't also have to explain why I was with a 27 year old woman who didn't own an umbrella.

[[ETM]]

I was walking back from school some fourteen years ago. A huge storm started, and wind and hale broke my umbrella. I decided to get home as quickly as I could, but that involved getting across a large open space. I was in bed with high fever for weeks.

[Mara]

One of my fondest memories from high school was once when I (in a very out-of-character moment) cut class and went and lay out on the lawn to watch a storm come on. I got soaked, but it was beautiful.

[ledfloyd]

i have never owned an umbrella.

[Lazlo]

Apparently this is getting a second season. According to some rumblings from people who have seen the finale, there's going to be some sort of twist that sets up season two.

I dunno... this has been such a disappointment, a thirteen hour long version of the first half of an episode of SVU. But something tells me, against my better judgment, that I'll be back next year. There's been some glimpses of light with the characters but there's been so much unoriginality and wheel-spinning.

[ledfloyd]

you know if they had played this like episodes 1 and 2, an intermediate episode, then 10, 11, 12, 13. it would've probably been a pretty good miniseries. now that the bennett fiasco is gone the show is actually somewhat decent. last week was great, and then this week the cops have finally decided to focus on who rosie was. i just hope this week's cliffhanger isn't another red herring.

another thing, this lady on vice tipped them on beau soliel, a few hours later holder and linden are talking to the guy that runs the server. if vice was aware of it, and it was that easy to find, why the hell was the site still in operation?

edit: and did they completely abandon jasper and kris? those guys were definitely up to something.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, if this was condensed into a British-size series, it might have worked really well. As for the ending - at least they're finally tying that plot thread into the main mystery.

[Lazlo]

;352478']Yeah, if this was condensed into a British-size series, it might have worked really well. As for the ending - at least they're finally tying that plot thread into the main mystery.

But it's such a bullshit tie-in. I mean, really, the we have to stomach weeks of his character being irrelevant and then just accept that he's been kept around because he's the killer?

Y'all are absolutely right, they had too much time on their hands with this. I have no clue how the Danish version was 20 episodes.

[Irish]

you know if they had played this like episodes 1 and 2, an intermediate episode, then 10, 11, 12, 13. it would've probably been a pretty good miniseries.

Agreed 100%. Great opening episodes and pretty good closers ... but the middle was just junk.


another thing, this lady on vice tipped them on beau soliel, a few hours later holder and linden are talking to the guy that runs the server. if vice was aware of it, and it was that easy to find, why the hell was the site still in operation?

The way I understood it, it was a "social" or "dating" site. Rich men meet goldbrickers who get "gifts" while on "dates." Not technically illegal on the face of it.

[Benny Profane]

They still haven't checked the phone records!

[Mara]

You guys, don't let me watch the next season of this show. Intervene.

[ledfloyd]

You guys, don't let me watch the next season of this show. Intervene.
want to set up a buddy system? because i'm pretty sure i'm going to watch the first two or three episodes to see if it's any better, conclude that it isn't, and get stuck watching an entire other season just to see how the case ends.

[Mara]

want to set up a buddy system? because i'm pretty sure i'm going to watch the first two or three episodes to see if it's any better, conclude that it isn't, and get stuck watching an entire other season just to see how the case ends.

This is my fear.

[[ETM]]

I think there's talent and there's room for this kind of show done well. I'm definitely gonna check out the beginning of S2 to see if they took the hints and did it right this time.

[Mara]

;352630']I think there's talent and there's room for this kind of show done well. I'm definitely gonna check out the beginning of S2 to see if they took the hints and did it right this time.

I'm trusting you to keep me informed. If it seems more solid in season 2, I'll give it a shot.

[Lucky]

So is this over yet? If so, spoil me. ;)

[[ETM]]

Best comment on Twitter: "So is Linden gonna dump Sam Anders next week?"

Also, (BSG spoilers) someone pointed out that Helo again had to stop the Cylon from taking his child away.

[Mara]

;352856']Best comment on Twitter: "So is Linden gonna dump Sam Anders next week?"

Also, (BSG spoilers) someone pointed out that Helo again had to stop the Cylon from taking his child away.

I thought he was a weird choice for a walk-on part. Maybe they promised him a bigger role next season.

Also, the brunette hooker was Meg from Veronica Mars.

[Acapelli]

I thought he was a weird choice for a walk-on part. Maybe they promised him a bigger role next season.

Also, the brunette hooker was Meg from Veronica Mars.
i was trying to place her. she looked familiar

[Winston*]

So if I liked the pilot of this I should just stop there? Maybe I'll watch the Danish original.

[Mara]

So if I liked the pilot of this I should just stop there? Maybe I'll watch the Danish original.

I don't know. It's never bad, but it's very frustrating.

[[ETM]]

The middle episodes are just sort of pointless. We don't learn much besides the plot threads surrounding the case, some of which are red herrings, so they could have easily cut several entire episodes, worked some of the personal stuff into others, and ended up with a better show.

[ledfloyd]

i don't know, i think it is bad. the bennett plot in particular is just so fraught with tenuous even gratuitous links to current events that it never deals with in any substantial way. they just serve as a way to make the plot seem profound when it's just a big waste of time. and the sheer quantity of red herrings and blank characters that can be turned into suspects at a moments notice is overwhelming.

[ledfloyd]

FUCK THIS SHOW.

[[ETM]]

:lol:

Sepinwall had the same reaction, whereas I read some "Holy shit, what a finale!" comments as well. I think I'm gonna hate it, too.

EDIT: I decided to read the spoilers, and you know what? I'm not watching that, and I'm deleting the entire season. FUCK THIS SHOW.

[ledfloyd]

you know, i thought i gave up caring about this show awhile back, but the level of anger i felt when the credits rolled would seem to imply otherwise. the answer to who killed rosie larsen ends up being 'shut up!' i think this is the end of me assuming the amc label implies a quality product. somebody owes me 13 hours.

[[ETM]]

I don't think I'd watch that finale even out of morbid curiosity now.
Someone on Twitter said it best:
"I hope The Killing's renewal ends up being a red herring."

[[ETM]]

i think this is the end of me assuming the amc label implies a quality product.

Wait until the "They canceled Rubicon for this?!" nonsense creeps in on you.

[Winston*]

I don't think I would have watched a second season of Rubicon if they picked it up.

[amberlita]

Yeah, just have one thing to say: FUCK THIS SHOW! Fuck it right in the eye!

[ledfloyd]

i like that i seem to have started a thing.

[Kurosawa Fan]

So glad I chose to delete the series rather than continue watching after seeing the reactions last night.

[Mara]

FUCK THIS SHOW.


;353956']FUCK THIS SHOW.


FUCK THIS SHOW!

This.

Holy crap, I am so frustrated right now.

[Hugh_Grant]

<little voice>Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I kind of liked the episode.</little voice>

[Mara]

<little voice>Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I kind of liked the episode.</little voice>

The writing has been getting worse all season, but this last episode took the cake. It was complete nonsense, with people doing random things with zero realistic motivation, just to make a plot point. Also, these might be the single worse detectives I've ever seen in fiction. They are comically inept.

SHAME on this show for wasting such talented actors.

[Mara]

Two good reviews on the show finale. I'm not going to waste any more of my time detailing my own complaints:

http://www.aoltv.com/2011/06/19/the-killing-season-1-season-finale-recap/

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/the-killing-orpheus-descending-reviewing-the-season-finale

[Hugh_Grant]

The writing has been getting worse all season, but this last episode took the cake. It was complete nonsense, with people doing random things with zero realistic motivation, just to make a plot point. Also, these might be the single worse detectives I've ever seen in fiction. They are comically inept.

SHAME on this show for wasting such talented actors.

Well, everyone has their own opinion, as my students are fond of telling me. :)

Maureen Ryan's review is even more vitriolic than Sepinwall's.

[Raiders]

Alright, I admit it, that was awful.

[Mara]

Well, everyone has their own opinion, as my students are fond of telling me. :)

That's true, and my violent thoughts are completely aimed at the show, and not at your opinion of it. Would you share your thoughts on the episode? And what did you think of the rest of the season?

[[ETM]]

There's something weird going on with Ginia Bellafante of NYT... remember her "review" of Game of Thrones (http://tv.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/arts/television/game-of-thrones-begins-sunday-on-hbo-review.html?ref=giniabellafant e)? Well, according to her "review" of The Killing (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/arts/television/the-killing-on-amc-solves-murder-in-season-finale.html?_r=1) finale makes it painfully obvious that she hadn't seen it at all. :lol:

As Dan Feinberg tweeted: "Re the NYTimes "Killing" review, I can only speculate how much more I could write about TV if I didn't have to watch TV."

And her explanation (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/the-killing-finale-clearer-than-you-thought/?src=tptw) doesn't improve things, either.

[Raiders]

I don't know, her explanation seems fine. She clearly bought that the show was only giving us stuff for next season (not that Richmond is framed but that he won't actually be proven guilty with credible evidence) and that the show is indeed going to close the book on Rosie Larsen. I'm not so hopeful, but whatever. I've read far more damning stuff than either of her reviews. She just isn't a very good writer from what I can tell.

[Mara]

My guess: she wrote 80% of the article prior to Sunday's episode, and then didn't follow what was happening very well. Also, as Raiders pointed out, she isn't a great writer. Oh, and she works for the New York Times as a television writer. I hate my life.

[Mara]

I hate my life.

This is a lie. I don't hate my life. I actually rather enjoy my life.

I hate HER life.

[ledfloyd]

This.

Holy crap, I am so frustrated right now.
at least we don't have to be worried about being tempted to watch season 2 anymore?

[[ETM]]

This is a lie. I don't hate my life. I actually rather enjoy my life.

I hate HER life.

I'd buy whatever newspaper you wrote for, though.

[Henry Gale]

So... as someone who only watched the first three episodes and has intended on continuing ever since, the polarizing reactions to this show over the course of the season has been pretty disheartening and confusing (especially with this finale).

Should I even bother watching the rest? Even to participate in any sort of interesting conversation about the show?

[[ETM]]

I don't think there'll be much conversation going forward. After the few promising episodes (which you've seen) there's a noticeable lull of some five or six episodes of pretty much no real consequence. I advise you to check out the next few and see for yourself.

[Henry Gale]

;354260']I don't think there'll be much conversation going forward. After the few promising episodes (which you've seen) there's a noticeable lull of some five or six episodes of pretty much no real consequence. I advise you to check out the next few and see for yourself.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Whether it was friends of mine, online articles or people on podcasts talking about it week to week, I just couldn't narrow down much consistency of opinion, except that there was a certain point in the middle where it seemed as if nothing compelling was really going on anymore.

I'll likely check it out a short while before Season 2 starts up, just to force some sort of deadline for myself to decide how much I care to movie forward, but there's so many other shows I'd rather move forward on first (especially the ones I highlighted in the Cutties thread as stuff people here nominated that I've missed out on).

[[ETM]]

there was a certain point in the middle where it seemed as if nothing compelling was really going on anymore.

Yeah, the backlash is so strong precisely because the show was coasting on early good faith, and the promise of a resolution by the end of the season... Literally everyone was expecting them to catch a killer, and do a different second season, taking the criticisms into account. The finale was like a slap in the face right out of left field.

[Irish]

The reactions to the finale are curious to me. That episode had the exact same tone (and pseudo-cliffhanger) as all the others, but boy people really hated it.

This show would have been more successful if:


The marketing had been different.
They had more stand alone "personal story" episodes like the one 2 weeks ago.
The entire Bennet subplot was minimized or eliminated.


I think the show failed to go where it wanted to go (they didn't successfully pull of a more in-depth mystery than the standard police procedural), but it was an interesting failure.

[Irish]

;354280']Literally everyone was expecting them to catch a killer, and do a different second season, taking the criticisms into account. The finale was like a slap in the face right out of left field.

Given the tendency of American remakes to bloat the hell out of European source material (eg: Insomnia), once I learned the Danish original was 20 episodes in its first season, I knew AMC wouldn't resolve their version in 13.

[[ETM]]

it was an interesting failure.

It sure was, people wouldn't have been this pissed if it wasn't interesting.

[DavidSeven]

I put the series aside after episode seven. I was definitely intending to return to it later. That seems less likely now. Shame that they apparently let such an excellent pilot and second episode go to waste like that.

[Benny Profane]

I don't even know where to begin.

[Acapelli]

the show definitely could have benefited from a shorter season

all in all, i still liked it, and will most likely watch season 2. i know i'm in the minority with that reaction

[Thirdmango]

I'm in the same boat as DavidSeven, I had finished up to episode 7 right along side all you guys but it was getting a little tedious so I thought I'd wait to marathon the rest of the series. So as per usual I stopped reading this thread but someone posted I think in Game of Thrones about after the killing watching that and reaffirming life. That got me interested and finally today I decided to check out the thread. I have so many things to watch right now I think I might just skip the last 6 episodes.

[DavidSeven]

I thought they were actually building up to something around Episode Six, but they scrapped most of that in the first ten minutes of Episode Seven and then introduced the Muslim subplot. Right then, I came to terms with the fact that this might be little more than "Red Herring: The Series". I planned to marathon the last six episodes over an evening or two, but I've barely even thought about the show since stopping.

The annoying thing is that this concept could have worked. It could have worked with this cast. It could have worked with the same production values. It definitely could have worked with the same pacing. The writing after Episode Two just wasn't up to snuff. Not even close. It doesn't look like much changed over the next six episodes (with the exception of possibly one standout episode). A total shame.

[[ETM]]

The annoying thing is that this concept could have worked. It could have worked with this cast. It could have worked with the same production values. It definitely could have worked with the same pacing.

This.

I keep seeing questions like "Why are people so upset?"
And... this. Just this.

[Irish]

The annoying thing is that this concept could have worked.

Absolutely. I wonder if this is a kind of chicken and egg problem though. Did the show fail because it fumbled or because people are so used to Law & Order, CSI, or even 24 style plotlines where things are neatly wrapped up for them at the end of an episode or season? Or was it a combination of the two?

The sad thing is that the takeaway here for producers might be that this kind of format, an attempt to do a slightly different kind of mystery show, just doesn't work with US audiences and should be avoided.

[[ETM]]

The CSIs etc. all follow the same pattern - most of the time the "perp" is introduced some time during the episode, they go through suspect after suspect until they get to the perp in the final moments, most often in an exciting action scene. The Killing followed most of the recipe, only - the murder mystery never became interesting, the police work was sloppier and slow, and they didn't shed any significant light on the case in ten episodes. Instead of using the extra time to deepen things, most of the characters got about the same development as in a single episode of CSI.

[DavidSeven]

Absolutely. I wonder if this is a kind of chicken and egg problem though. Did the show fail because it fumbled or because people are so used to Law & Order, CSI, or even 24 style plotlines where things are neatly wrapped up for them at the end of an episode or season? Or was it a combination of the two?

The sad thing is that the takeaway here for producers might be that this kind of format, an attempt to do a slightly different kind of mystery show, just doesn't work with US audiences and should be avoided.

The show failed because the writing wasn't good. I'd put up with cliff hangers and red herrings if the characters were compelling. I'd put up with thin characters if the plotting was intricate and clearly planned ahead. I think the reason why people were pissed about the finale (from my impression of stuff I've read) is that the vast majority of people only stuck around to for all 13 episodes for a resolution and a resolution only. The show utterly failed to engage them on any other level. Not giving them that one thing was probably like a final slap in the face. If the show had actually crafted compelling characters and a rich storyline up to that point, my guess is people might be slightly annoyed, but we wouldn't see the same vitriol that's occurred here.

And I agree with your last point. The most tragic consequence of this might be that a showrunner with actual writing chops would be barred from doing a show like this in the future. I guess it'll depend on how the ratings turn out for AMC next year.

[[ETM]]

Also, re:intensity - this is similar to my own experience with the final season of LOST. I suck with it and liked everything up to the final five minutes... and when that turned out the way it did, the entire season was soured for me. The reaction was/is too harsh, but that conclusion is all-powerful: it can cut you slack in the run up to it, but if it doesn't work - it can bury you.

[amberlita]

Ha! I didn't realize Bill Simmons watched The Killing. (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6680958/hackery-first-degree)

[Irish]

Curious if anyone is watching the second season. :P

[Hugh_Grant]

Curious if anyone is watching the second season. :P
Yep, and I'm wondering why the hell I am. Joel Kinnaman is too good for this show.

[Thirdmango]

I didn't finish the first season but have been thinking about watching the second anyway.

[Irish]

Yep, and I'm wondering why the hell I am. Joel Kinnaman is too good for this show.

Does it continue to be a mix of intriguing potential and pure suck? I have the first 3 episodes of the second season dvr'd and was wondering if I should bother.

And I agree about Kinneman. He was pretty much the biggest reason I kept watching the first season.

[amberlita]

Yep, and I'm wondering why the hell I am. Joel Kinnaman is too good for this show.

This pretty much echoes my own thoughts exactly.

[slqrick]

I wanna see Kinnaman's Robocop.

[DavidSeven]

Come on, you guys are better than this.

[Irish]

Come on, you guys are better than this.

I'm really not. I watch an embarrassing amount of cop shows and procedurals, which I won't name. :lol:

The second season is much stronger than the first. No more red herrings and bait and switch stuff.

I keep getting pulled in because I love the look and tone of this show. There isn't anything else on TV right now with such a heavy noir slant.

[ledfloyd]

well guys, the ridiculous arguments irish is always pursuing finally make sense. he's a masochist!

[Morris Schæffer]

If you watch the original Danish, let us know if it's good.

Just saw episode 1. It's promising. :)

[Morris Schæffer]

Just saw episode 1. It's promising. :)

That was the most addictive mystery I've ever seen. My god I was craving the outcome. The great thing was that the plot of these 20 episodes felt very organic rather than going for lots of improbable twists and turns. And another great thing was that the protagonists actually did some real police work, some really hardcore investigations and sure enough that involved some luck, but I think they earned it. I was reminded of The Wire in how a single murder impacts several sections of society. The schools, the politicians and obviously the family. Amazingly suspenseful, sinister, unsettling and colossally addictive.
For the record, I'm talking about the Danish show here. :)

[slqrick]

Against better judgement, I'm thinking about checking out the new season. I hear it's been much better, although I guess that's not much of a ringing endorsement.

[Irish]

Against better judgement, I'm thinking about checking out the new season. I hear it's been much better, although I guess that's not much of a ringing endorsement.

I think this season is one of the best shows on TV, and I was a middlin' fan of the first two seasons. The show has gotten progressively better every year, and it's a shame it's been cancelled.

Be forewarned though that this season is heavy on the noir and almost unrelentingly grim.

[amberlita]

I think this season is one of the best shows on TV, and I was a middlin' fan of the first two seasons. The show has gotten progressively better every year, and it's a shame it's been cancelled.

Be forewarned though that this season is heavy on the noir and almost unrelentingly grim.

Where did you learn this? I've looked around and haven't read anything about its renewal or cancellation for a Season 4. Plus last week AMC was advertising "only X episodes left until the season finale of The Killing".

[ThePlashyBubbler]

It was technically cancelled after season two before being revived when AMC was short of other programming. Don't believe it's been said this is the last season.

[Irish]

Read it somewhere? IIRC, this will be a truncated season too.

I could dig up a link but I imagine it's just as easily Googleable for all.

[amberlita]

OK. Well Google is what I did and didn't find anything except as relating to Season 2's cancellation (and subsequent uncancellation).

I don't know if I'd call this season truncated. It's twelve episodes long, which is just one shy of the other seasons.

You don't have to dig up a link. I was just curious. I suspect nothing is official at this point.

[slqrick]

Just watched the season 3 premiere. I'm glad they dropped the politics stuff (I left the show around the end of season one), and Kinnaman is awesome and still the best thing about this show. The Girl with Dragon Tattoo knock off character made my eye roll though.

[Irish]

@amber Could have sworn I saw something on Wikipedia, but it's not there now. Also entirely possible I misread.

[slqrick]

Hm. This season is really, really good. It kind of blows my mind to admit that, because it really feels like a completely different show. Excising all the political fat was the best thing they could have done, and they've finally managed to use the grisly atmosphere (which was it's best feature even in the shitty first season) to really immerse viewers into the investigation. Bullet is a really great character, and I definitely wasn't expecting that either. Kinnaman is great, and revelatory in spots...hope he gets nominated for an Emmy.

[amberlita]

Penultimate episode. Jesus that was harrowing. I feel ill.

[slqrick]

Cancelled.

[EyesWideOpen]

Cancelled.

And now revived! Season 4 is being done by Netflix. Six episodes to wrap up the series.

[Henry Gale]

And now revived! Season 4 is being done by Netflix. Six episodes to wrap up the series.

Before being enough of a success for them that they bring it back for another season!

Alas, that fifth season isn't the home run Netflix hoped, and they decide not to continue with it.

AMC then becomes jealous of its revived popularity and grants it a sixth season... Its ratings falter and it is cancelled... But not before......

[Hugh_Grant]

oh my god let this show die

[Lucky]

oh my god let this show die

Haha these were my thoughts as well.

How much would I lose by jumping into the third season having only watched the first?

[Acapelli]

absolutely nothing. i gave up on the second season partway through and picked it back up for the 3rd

[D_Davis]

Even on it's gloomiest days of the year, Seattle isn't as dark and the people aren't as serious as this show depicts.

Good lord - this show is just one sad, depressing scene after another.

I need more humor and wit in my cop shows, something that shows the balance in life of good and bad.

[Acapelli]

well you definitely won't find that here!