Godard, Bergman, Fassbinder and the Slow Agonizing Death of Match Cut

[megladon8]

Don't get me started on Godard again.

[balmakboor]

...along with Jean-Luc Godard, he's the last great montage filmmaker of the 20th century).

Now I know that there's a lot of Godard stuff I haven't seen, namely a lot of stuff post Week End. But I've never really thought of him as a "montage" filmmaker. I think of him as having a rather unique mastery of the long take. The fact that his films are brilliantly and innovatively edited isn't lost on me though.

[Derek]

Now I know that there's a lot of Godard stuff I haven't seen, namely a lot of stuff post Week End. But I've never really thought of him as a "montage" filmmaker. I think of him as having a rather unique mastery of the long take. The fact that his films are brilliantly and innovatively edited isn't lost on me though.

I don't think of him as a "montage" filmmaker per se, but coming off of Histoire(s) du Cinema, I can see where bd is coming from. The opening sequence of Notre Musique is one hell of a montage as well.

[Adam]

"Montage" translates to film editing in French, so that's probably what baby doll means

[Ivan Drago]

Don't get me started on Godard again.

Sorry man, but I gotta know. What don't you like about Godard?

[megladon8]

Sorry man, but I gotta know. What don't you like about Godard?


Haven't seen a single film by Godard that I'd put above about a 5.

Just find them to be meandering, uninspiring, and completely uninteresting.

Godard is like the textbook definition of a director who makes exactly the types of movies I don't care to watch.

[elixir]

Haven't seen a single film by Godard that I'd put above about a 5.

Just find them to be meandering, uninspiring, and completely uninteresting.

Godard is like the textbook definition of a director who makes exactly the types of movies I don't care to watch.

Which ones have you seen?

[baby doll]

Now I know that there's a lot of Godard stuff I haven't seen, namely a lot of stuff post Week End. But I've never really thought of him as a "montage" filmmaker. I think of him as having a rather unique mastery of the long take. The fact that his films are brilliantly and innovatively edited isn't lost on me though.Derek already got there first, but yeah, I was thinking more of his later stuff generally, and his found footage pieces--Histoire(s) du cinéma, The Old Place, Dans le noir du temps, Liberté et patrie, the opening of Notre musique, and the end of Film socialisme--in particular, which consist largely of the juxtaposition and/or superimposition of old film clips with documentary footage, production stills, shots of Godard smoking a cigar, onscreen text, spoken narration, and music.

[baby doll]

Haven't seen a single film by Godard that I'd put above about a 5.

Just find them to be meandering, uninspiring, and completely uninteresting.

Godard is like the textbook definition of a director who makes exactly the types of movies I don't care to watch.Well, I can refute "meandering"--which is to say, in his '60s films like À bout de souffle, Bande Ã* part, and Made in U.S.A., the narrative digressions are what make the movie to the point that the flimsy story lines exist largely to give Godard something to digress from, as a kind of jumping off point for irreverent asides and stylistic craziness.

[Boner M]

Godard is like the textbook definition of a director who makes exactly the types of movies I largely haven't watched.
Fixed.

[megladon8]

Fixed.


Seriously?

Come on. That's low.

[baby doll]

Seriously?

Come on. That's low.Maybe, but is it true? I mean, about this time last year, I had gotten so used to classical storytelling that I had to re-learn how to watch festival movies. And I find with Godard, just when I think I've got a handle on him, he does something totally unexpected, and I have to re-learn all over again.

[Boner M]

Come on. That's low.
Not really. Haven't you only seen 2 of his films?

[megladon8]

Not really. Haven't you only seen 2 of his films?


Um...no?

Which is why that's kind of insulting.

"You don't like his movies because you don't get them" is what it seems like you said.

[elixir]

meg, I'm curious as to which films you saw---but I am NOT NOT NOT saying "you don't get them." Just curious!!! :)

ETA: Because I feel like Godard has a diverse filmography that almost ensures that one of his films will work for everyone. Maybe I'm off-base with that theory though. I have that same thought about other filmmakers as well.

[megladon8]

meg, I'm curious as to which films you saw---but I am NOT NOT NOT saying "you don't get them." Just curious!!! :)

ETA: Because I feel like Godard has a diverse filmography that almost ensures that one of his films will work for everyone. Maybe I'm off-base with that theory though. I have that same thought about other filmmakers as well.


Going chronologically by IMDb I've seen...

A Woman is a Woman
My Life to Live
Contempt
Band of Outsiders
Pierrot le Fou
Masculin, Feminin


Most all of these (everything except for My Life to Live and Pierrot le Fou) I saw a few years back when I was in my "see anything I can that's been released by Criterion" phase.

Pierrot le Fou I saw on an old VHS tape from the library. My Life to Live I saw last summer.


Despite disliking all of these films, I'm still wanting to see Breathless at some point, since a lot of people say it's his best.

[elixir]

:(

Breathless is actually my least second favorite of his that I've seen so far, but it is pretty important for cinema in general--worth seeing for sure. Dang, maybe my theory is off. I can't imagine disliking My Life to Live, but different tastes I guess. I won't recommend Week End to you. :)

I'm trying to think of a popular filmmaker whose films I have completely disliked, but I can't at the moment. Usually I like at least one of them.

[baby doll]

When people say that À bout de souffle is Godard's best film, I find they mean that it's one of his more accessible (though still fairly digressive) and it was one of his biggest hits. I prefer his niche-ier movies, which I find hold up better on multiple viewings. Then again, with Le Gai savoir he seemed to enter a kind of cinematic no man's land where even I couldn't follow him. (Of course, I've only seen it once and I remember that Manny Farber liked it, so I'll probably have to give it another shot one of these days, as Godard's films invariably improve on multiple viewings, just because you have a better idea of what to expect, and what not to expect.)

[baby doll]

I'm trying to think of a popular filmmaker whose films I have completely disliked, but I can't at the moment. Usually I like at least one of them.Yeah, even Bergman has Persona.

[megladon8]

I find Bergman a much, much more satisfying director.

The Seventh Seal was like, a turning point in my life as a film fan.

Fanny & Alexander cut me to the core, and awed me with its beauty.

[baby doll]

I find Bergman a much, much more satisfying director.

The Seventh Seal was like, a turning point in my life as a film fan.

Fanny & Alexander cut me to the core, and awed me with its beauty.Well, he's a much more traditional filmmaker, in that he tells stories about psychologically convincing characters, but I just don't have any use for his brand of antiseptic Scandinavian angst.

[Boner M]

I find Bergman a much, much more completely different director.
Fixed again.

[megladon8]

...

Seriously?

Because Bergman and Godard are different, I'm not allowed to prefer one to the other?

Did I unknowingly piss in your cornflakes at some point, Boner?

[baby doll]

Incidentally, I think Godard is a Bergman fan. Anyway, I wasn't trying to compare them (the two are so different that any comparison between them is pretty meaningless); he was just the first example that came to mind of a widely respected director who's work I'm generally unsympathetic to.

[megladon8]

I was comparing them in terms of "I like Bergman's films more than I like Godard's films".

Which I do not see a problem with, regardless of how different they are.

[elixir]

I love Bergman and Godard. :)

[baby doll]

I was comparing them in terms of "I like Bergman's films more than I like Godard's films".

Which I do not see a problem with, regardless of how different they are.But it's not like they're attempting to do the same things. If I like Persona, it's not because it's more Godardian than his other films, but because it's more successful as a Bergman film than some of his other movies, which I find too dry.

[elixir]

So he can't say he prefers one because they aren't out to do the same thing? That seems fairly ridiculous. He didn't say Bergman was better than Godard at doing [insert specific thing here].

[megladon8]

I still don't see why it's wrong to say "I like Bergman more than Godard".

There is absolutely nothing in that sentence that says I'm saying they're anything alike. I just like Bergman's films more than Godard's.

The end.

[Ivan Drago]

Maaaybe I shouldn't have asked.

[Boner M]

...

Seriously?

Because Bergman and Godard are different, I'm not allowed to prefer one to the other?

Did I unknowingly piss in your cornflakes at some point, Boner?
There's nothing I can flippantly quote/fix in this post, so I won't dignify it with a response.

[Boner M]

Incidentally, I think Godard is a Bergman fan.
Godard was openly inspired by how Bergman filmed women in the latter's early films, and honestly what's Godard's filmography without hot babes? Respekt to Ingmar.

[Bosco B Thug]

Godard was openly inspired by how Bergman filmed women in the latter's early films, and honestly what's Godard's filmography without hot babes? Respekt to Ingmar.
Too bad Bergman's the jerk in their relationship.

[balmakboor]

This thread seems to have strayed pretty far off topic, so I'll help it along. Has anyone seen Sympathy for the Devil and One Plus One? How different are they? I've been meaning to check out the former because I suspect I'll like it quite a bit.

[baby doll]

This thread seems to have strayed pretty far off topic, so I'll help it along. Has anyone seen Sympathy for the Devil and One Plus One? How different are they? I've been meaning to check out the former because I suspect I'll like it quite a bit.I haven't seen One Plus One, but from what I've read, the only difference is that we don't hear the finished song over a freeze frame at the end.

[balmakboor]

I haven't seen One Plus One, but from what I've read, the only difference is that we don't hear the finished song over a freeze frame at the end.

Thanks. It's now at the top of my queue.

You responded to me before about Godard's later "found footage" work and I'm very intrigued. I love the idea of filmmakers investing such shots with often surprising new connotations and I enjoyed the opening of Notre musique very much (not so sure about the rest of the film though).

Mods: Is there an easy way to lift the Godard talk over the past few pages and create a new Godard thread of some kind?

[baby doll]

Thanks. It's now at the top of my queue.

You responded to me before about Godard's later "found footage" work and I'm very intrigued. I love the idea of filmmakers investing such shots with often surprising new connotations and I enjoyed the opening of Notre musique very much (not so sure about the rest of the film though).

Mods: Is there an easy way to lift the Godard talk over the past few pages and create a new Godard thread of some kind?One thing that's interesting about his video work is that he seems to have a few favorite clips that he uses over and over in different contexts. In Histoire(s) du cinéma alone, we must see John Wayne lifting Natalie Wood over his shoulder like three times.

[balmakboor]

One thing that's interesting about his video work is that he seems to have a few favorite clips that he uses over and over in different contexts. In Histoire(s) du cinéma alone, we must see John Wayne lifting Natalie Wood over his shoulder like three times.

I just started watching Histoire(s) du cinéma on youtube and even without subs it's pretty intoxicating and fascinating stuff. I'm sure I'll love it when I get a chance to see it properly.

[baby doll]

I just started watching Histoire(s) du cinéma on youtube and even without subs it's pretty intoxicating and fascinating stuff. I'm sure I'll love it when I get a chance to see it properly.Yeah, the subtitles on the torrent I downloaded tend to be as selective as the "Navaho English" subs in Film Socialisme, and I was glad to have them. It's one of those movies that seems to grow in stature the more I think about it.

[elixir]

Bergman is great.

Godard is great.

Bickering has the potential to be great, but often ends up shitty.

I prefer Bergman to Godard, though I still have many films to see from each.

[baby doll]

Godard is the greatest.

Bergman had his moments.Fixed.

[elixir]

Fixed.

I do not understand the Rosenbaum school of thought when it comes to Bergman. A bit baffling to me. Especially how he is accused of being stagey...when his cinematographer Sven Nykvist is so respected (and rightly so).

Few directors have had films that have meant more to me.

[Qrazy]

Bergman is pretty good. Godard is mediocre. Fixed.

[elixir]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who likes both of them.

[baby doll]

I do not understand the Rosenbaum school of thought when it comes to Bergman. A bit baffling to me. Especially how he is accused of being stagey...when his cinematographer Sven Nykvist is so respected (and rightly so).

Few directors have had films that have meant more to me.Well, I think Rosenbaum has certain polemical reasons for going after Bergman--namely, that because of his commercial success, he's tended to eclipse Carl Theodor Dreyer, an even stagier (and greater) Scandinavian director, who never had the same sort of popular success (i.e., none of his movies were nominated for Oscars).

My beef with Bergman is that I find most of his movies pretty dull. I have no sympathy for his subject (spiritual and/or emotional constipation, or some combination of both depending on the film), the ponderous tone with which he tackles it and which seldom permits humor, the corny symbolic dream sequences (clocks without hands, etc.), and the often slow, episodic storytelling. It's like he's afraid that if we have too much fun, we won't know that his films are supposed to be art.

Sure, Sven Nykvist can light a shot like a motherfucker, but lighting only takes you so far.

[Derek]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who likes both of them.

No, I'm with you, but you'll have to get used to the Godard apathy around these parts.

[Sven]

My beef with Bergman is that I find most of his movies pretty dull. I have no sympathy for his subject (spiritual and/or emotional constipation, or some combination of both depending on the film), the ponderous tone with which he tackles it and which seldom permits humor, the corny symbolic dream sequences (clocks without hands, etc.), and the often slow, episodic storytelling. It's like he's afraid that if we have too much fun, we won't know his films are supposed to be art.

I believe you are referring to Danish director Lars Bergman, while elixir is referring to the Swedish Ingmar Bergman.

[baby doll]

I believe you are referring to Danish director Lars Bergman, while elixir is referring to the Swedish Ingmar Bergman.Personally, I'm much more in line with Trier's Fassbinder-ian sense of humor (namely, that rape is hilarious, especially when it happens over and over which just makes it funnier and funnier) than Bergman's attempts at frivolity in Smiles of a Summer Night and the childhood flashbacks in Wild Strawberries, which seem steeped in the sensibility of 19th century bourgeois theatre.

[elixir]

Um, do the directors really do that? Because I haven't seen their films, but I've wanted to, but that makes me nervous...because I don't really ever find rape funny in any way. I just can't. Call me prude, fine.

Unless you are being glib. Honestly can't tell.

The Seventh Seal has humor. So does Fanny and Alexander. Does a movie NEED humor though? I don't think it'd make sense in, say, The Virgin Spring (at least more towards the end).

[baby doll]

Um, do the directors really do that? Because I haven't seen their films, but I've wanted to, but that makes me nervous...because I don't really ever find rape funny in any way. I just can't. Call me prude, fine.

Unless you are being glib. Honestly can't tell.

The Seventh Seal has humor. So does Fanny and Alexander. Does a movie NEED humor though? I don't think it'd make sense in, say, The Virgin Spring (at least more towards the end).I can't think of any rape in Fassbinder's movies, but both take a pretty detached view of suffering and human misery. But yeah, the rape in Dogville is totally played for laughs, as is the suicide in Fox and His Friends.

A movie doesn't necessarily need humor (although it's a good sign of intelligence on the part of the filmmakers). I'm just saying that I tend to be more sympathetic to the sensibilities of a modernist like Godard, or a post-modernist like Fassbinder (along with Godard, my other favorite filmmaker), than the pre-modernist sensibility of a Bergman.

[Sven]

than the pre-modernist sensibility of a Bergman.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

[Watashi]

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.
That quote could be said for any babydoll post.

I still love you babydoll

[baby doll]

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.Does anybody ever know what I'm talking about? Rightly or wrongly, I tend to associate a modernist sensibility with any film that foregrounds the conditions of its own production.

[Derek]

I can't think of any rape in Fassbinder's movies, but both take a pretty detached view of suffering and human misery. But yeah, the rape in Dogville is totally played for laughs

The rape is played for irony, not laughs - the brutality of the rape itself framed amidst the townspeople's willful ignorance of it (and their own raping of sorts of Grace). The rape in In a Year With 13 Moons is also horrifying, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[baby doll]

The rape is played for irony, not laughs - the brutality of the rape itself framed amidst the townspeople's willful ignorance of it (and their own raping of sorts of Grace). The rape in In a Year With 13 Moons is also horrifying, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.Was there a rape in In a Year of Thirteen Moons? I remember s/he gets beat up a lot, but I don't recall a rape.

[Sven]

Does anybody know what I'm talking about, ever?

It would help if you didn't bite off more intellectual fodder than you can chew. Defining "modernism" in film as the awareness of the film as a film is way too limiting, but also is inaccurate in your application because many of Bergman's films are markedly reflexive, aesthetically and otherwise.

[baby doll]

It would help if you didn't bite off more intellectual fodder than you can chew. Defining "modernism" in film as the awareness of the film as a film is way too limiting, but also is inaccurate in your application because many of Bergman's films are markedly reflexive, aesthetically and otherwise.Bergman is reflexive at times in certain of his films (the fake interviews in The Passion of Anna come to mind), but not in as sustained a way as, for instance, 2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle. Even in Autumn Sonata and Sarabande, where he has characters speak to the camera, it's more of a theatrical device than an attempt to demystify the cinema in a Marxist sense.

[Derek]

Was there a rape in In a Year of Thirteen Moons? I remember s/he gets beat up a lot, but I don't recall a rape.

Ah, I think you're right. Ok, then how about Martha. I see what you mean about a sort of detached humor there (framing her in the same way as the dead cat, etc), but the post-sunburn rape itself was definitely not funny, at least not in any way that I or most human beings would be comfortable using the word.

[baby doll]

Ah, I think you're right. Ok, then how about Martha. I see what you mean about a sort of detached humor there (framing her in the same way as the dead cat, etc), but the post-sunburn rape itself was definitely not funny, at least not in any way that I or most human beings would be comfortable using the word.I haven't seen Martha yet.

[megladon8]

Hey, I didn't make this thread.

[Derek]

I haven't seen Martha yet.

You should. Top-notch Fassbinder, that one.

[megladon8]

I like Michael Fassbender.

[Raiders]

You should. Top-notch Fassbinder, that one.

Yeah, my absolute favorite one. I would nominate Carstensen's performance as one of the best of all-time.

[elixir]

What's a good entryway into Fassbinder? I was thinking of starting with the BRD trilogy, but I'm not sure if that's a good starting point.

[Derek]

Yeah, my absolute favorite one. I would nominate Carstensen's performance as one of the best of all-time.

I wouldn't argue that, though I prefer her performance in Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant.

[Raiders]

I wouldn't argue that, though I prefer her performance in Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant.

I haven't seen that one. I actually haven't watched a new Fassbinder in a couple years.

[Derek]

What's a good entryway into Fassbinder? I was thinking of starting with the BRD trilogy, but I'm not sure if that's a good starting point.

I rarely find that starting with a director's later films is a good idea. With Fassbinder, I'd go with Ali: Fear Eats the Soul since it's probably his most direct homage to Sirk and gives you a pretty good idea of what he's all about.

[Derek]

I haven't seen that one. I actually haven't watched a new Fassbinder in a couple years.

It had probably been that long for me before I watched Martha last year. His intensity comes through in his films, so they're really something you have to be ready to take on.

EDIT: But yeah, see Petra von Kant. I'm pretty sure you'll love it.

[elixir]

I rarely find that starting with a director's later films is a good idea. With Fassbinder, I'd go with Ali: Fear Eats the Soul since it's probably his most direct homage to Sirk and gives you a pretty good idea of what he's all about.

Yikes, haven't seen a Sirk film either, though I've been meaning to. Though I watched Far From Heaven without having seen one. I'll get to these eventually.

[baby doll]

I rarely find that starting with a director's later films is a good idea.I think in this case though, The Marriage of Maria Braun might be a good place to start, as it's one of his most naturalistic and it was his first big-budget commercial success, essentially launching Hanna Schygulla as an international star.

[megladon8]

I need to see some Fassbinder. I've not seen any of this films, I don't think.

[megladon8]

And, wow, my library has like, none of his work available.

A single copy of The Marriage of Maria Braun on VHS.

[balmakboor]

What's a good entryway into Fassbinder? I was thinking of starting with the BRD trilogy, but I'm not sure if that's a good starting point.

Ali for sure. Btw, I'm seeing it on the big screen this week. Lucky me. Saw All That Heaven Allows last week.

[balmakboor]

There's that one shot in Martha where Fassbinder kinda ties the screen into a knot. It's usually not a good thing when one shot stands out so much in a movie, but that one says so much about the twisted nature of the relationship to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZbGOrvi_t0

[endingcredits]

I need to see more Fassbinder. The only things I've seen by him are the first two parts of Berlin Alexanderplatz, which were great. Unfortunately, the second disk from netflix wouldn't play and I can't take the ratio hit downloading it off KG.

[Watashi]

I've seen Ali: Fear Eats the Soul.

It's the shit.

[Idioteque Stalker]

There's that one shot in Martha where Fassbinder kinda ties the screen into a knot. It's usually not a good thing when one shot stands out so much in a movie, but that one says so much about the twisted nature of the relationship to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZbGOrvi_t0

I've liked the Fassbinder I've seen, but Martha better have some damn strong themes to support a shot that stringent. Wow.

[balmakboor]

I need to see more Fassbinder. The only things I've seen by him are the first two parts of Berlin Alexanderplatz, which were great. Unfortunately, the second disk from netflix wouldn't play and I can't take the ratio hit downloading it off KG.

Try to see it all. It really kicks into high gear when Reinhold and Mieze enter the picture starting with episode 5, I believe.

[Grouchy]

I, too, prefer Bergman as a filmmaker. And obviously as a person.

But if you didn't find anything to enjoy in My Life to Live and Band of Outsiders, then perhaps you did miss something.

[baby doll]

I, too, prefer Bergman as a filmmaker. And obviously as a person.I would be very weary about trying to judge the character of a film director based on what's reported about them in the press. (In response to the accusations of douchery against Godard, Jonathan Rosenbaum has pretty gone on the offensive by writing an article (http://www.jonathanrosenbaum.com/?p=23353) about how nice Godard was to him personally when they met in 1996.) I think the main reason people in the press cast aspersions on Godard's character, apart from not liking his movies, is that he's reluctant to talk to them. (Much the same thing happened to Stanley Kubrick.)

[baby doll]

By the way, while we're on the subject of Fassbinder and bickering, according to the lady who did the DVD commentary for The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, he used to beat women in public, so as far as acting like an ass-hole, I think he's got Bergman and Godard topped.

[megladon8]

I, too, prefer Bergman as a filmmaker. And obviously as a person.


You can't say that.

They're different filmmakers with different goals, so you can't like one more than the other, even though you're not making any direct comparisons and simply stating preference.

Come on, we've been through this already in this thread, dude.

[baby doll]

You can't say that.

They're different filmmakers with different goals, so you can't like one more than the other, even though you're not making any direct comparisons and simply stating preference.

Come on, we've been through this already in this thread, dude.Obviously you can state a preference, but it seems like a fairly meaningless one, like saying you prefer hot dogs to Switzerland (especially if all you've only been to one part of the country).

[megladon8]

Obviously you can state a preference, but it seems like a fairly meaningless one, like saying you prefer hot dogs to Switzerland (especially if all you've only been to one part of the country).


There's nothing meaningless about it.

Regardless of how different their philosophies are, they both make movies.

I prefer Bergman's movies to Godard's movies.

That is not "meaningless".

[baby doll]

There's nothing meaningless about it.

Regardless of how different their philosophies are, they both make movies.

I prefer Bergman's movies to Godard's movies.

That is not "meaningless".Not to get into a whole thing about it, my feeling is simply that there's a categorical difference between the sort of films Godard makes and the kind Bergman made. In fact, neither director's work is very uniform. The Bergman of Smiles of a Summer Night is a totally different filmmaker than the Bergman of Cries and Whispers, and Godard is even more all of the place. Even in his most commercial phase in the early '60s, when he went from a jazzy, digressive crime picture (À bout de souffle) to a banned film about the Algerian war (Le Petit soldat) to a self-conscious musical (Une femme est une femme) to a quasi-documentary art film about prostitution (Vivre sa vie) to another low-budget war film (Les Carabiniers) to a big budget Italian co-production in 'Scope starring Brigit Bardot (Le Mépris)--all in a space of about four years.

[Derek]

By the way, while we're on the subject of Fassbinder and bickering, according to the lady who did the DVD commentary for The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, he used to beat women in public

Maybe he found it funny.

[Boner M]

I think we can all agree that all 3 filmmakers were assholes.

[megladon8]

Not to get into a whole thing about it, my feeling is simply that there's a categorical difference between the sort of films Godard makes and the kind Bergman made. In fact, neither director's work is very uniform. The Bergman of Smiles of a Summer Night is a totally different filmmaker than the Bergman of Cries and Whispers, and Godard is even more all of the place. Even in his most commercial phase in the early '60s, when he went from a jazzy, digressive crime picture (À bout de souffle) to a banned film about the Algerian war (Le Petit soldat) to a self-conscious musical (Une femme est une femme) to a quasi-documentary art film about prostitution (Vivre sa vie) to another low-budget war film (Les Carabiniers) to a big budget Italian co-production in 'Scope starring Brigit Bardot (Le Mépris)--all in a space of about four years.


This still has no bearing on preferring one's body of work to the other's.

[Ezee E]

Maybe he found it funny.
Quote of the year.

[megladon8]

Beating women in public is cinema.

[baby doll]

I think we can all agree that all 3 filmmakers were assholes.I'm so glad you quoted me completely out of context in your signature.

[Qrazy]

Not to get into a whole thing about it, my feeling is simply that there's a categorical difference between the sort of films Godard makes and the kind Bergman made. In fact, neither director's work is very uniform. The Bergman of Smiles of a Summer Night is a totally different filmmaker than the Bergman of Cries and Whispers, and Godard is even more all of the place. Even in his most commercial phase in the early '60s, when he went from a jazzy, digressive crime picture (À bout de souffle) to a banned film about the Algerian war (Le Petit soldat) to a self-conscious musical (Une femme est une femme) to a quasi-documentary art film about prostitution (Vivre sa vie) to another low-budget war film (Les Carabiniers) to a big budget Italian co-production in 'Scope starring Brigit Bardot (Le Mépris)--all in a space of about four years.

I know, right? It's like comparing apples to a different type of apples! wtffff!!!

[megladon8]

Requested a couple of Godard's films from the library.

Two to revisit and see if I warm up to them, and Breathless which I have not seen.

[baby doll]

So The Virgin Spring was actually pretty awesome.

[Ezee E]

So The Virgin Spring was actually pretty awesome.
Duh.

[elixir]

So The Virgin Spring was actually pretty awesome.

Yup! :)

Glad you liked it.

[Ivan Drago]

Considering this thread's title, is this a sub-thread for the FDT?

[Mysterious Dude]

Considering this thread's title, is this a sub-thread for the FDT?
It started in the Black Swan thread, actually, with baby doll's post where he called Godard the last great montage filmmaker of the something something.

[Boner M]

Requested a couple of Godard's films from the library.

Two to revisit and see if I warm up to them, and Breathless which I have not seen.
??? (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=254012&postcount=41133)

[Ivan Drago]

It started in the Black Swan thread, actually, with baby doll's post where he called Godard the last great montage filmmaker of the something something.

I know; I even accidentally posted something about Black Swan in this thread today, thinking they were both the same thread. I'm just saying I consider this discussion to be FDT-lite. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[megladon8]

??? (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=254012&postcount=41133)


Hmmm...I think I'm getting some of his movies mixed up.

Like I said before, most all of the ones I've seen were several years back when I had just discovered that Criterions could be rented from the library.

The only two I have a really clear recollection of at this point are Contempt and My Life to Live.

[B-side]

Fassbinder, Bergman and Godard are all brilliant.

[Raiders]

So The Virgin Spring was actually pretty awesome.

Yeah, my second favorite of his. I think the fact that Bergman later denounced it speaks volumes about the fact that I do love it considering his philosophy on film-making and mine on film-viewing are rarely the same.

[elixir]

Yeah, my second favorite of his. I think the fact that Bergman later denounced it speaks volumes about the fact that I do love it considering his philosophy on film-making and mine on film-viewing are rarely the same.

Yeah, like others have said, I never put stock in how directors feel about their own work (I used the example earlier of Woody Allen).

It's probably my third favorite of his at the moment, but it's definitely one of those endings--cheesy as it sounds--I won't forget.

[baby doll]

It started in the Black Swan thread, actually, with baby doll's post where he called Godard the last great montage filmmaker of the something something.I think the real take-away here is that nobody tried to challenge my claim that Russ Meyer is a superior filmmaker to Darren Aronofsky. Given how much everybody around here seems to like Black Swan, I thought somebody might timidly venture that both have merit, even if there's no comparing Aronofsky's film with a supreme masterpiece like Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens (probably Meyer's craziest movie, and his most aggressively edited), but it passed completely unnoticed.

[Sycophant]

Don't read too much into that.

[megladon8]

Yeah I've decided I'm definitely getting at least a couple of his films mixed up, sometimes even with the films of other filmmakers.

In thinking about A Woman is a Woman I'm pretty sure I was thinking about Jules et Jim. I know I have seen Godard's film, but this shows how well I remember it.

Again, I'm looking forward to re-viewing a couple of them.

[Qrazy]

Yeah I've decided I'm definitely getting at least a couple of his films mixed up, sometimes even with the films of other filmmakers.

In thinking about A Woman is a Woman I'm pretty sure I was thinking about Jules et Jim. I know I have seen Godard's film, but this shows how well I remember it.

Again, I'm looking forward to re-viewing a couple of them.

Because you love him so dearly already?

[megladon8]

Because I want to give them another shot?

[Qrazy]

Because I want to give them another shot?

Still don't think looking forward to something you previously disliked really makes sense but fair enough.

[Ezee E]

Because I want to give them another shot?
You forgot his movies, but you know that you haven't liked any of his movies, but they might be mixed up with other directors.

:)

[megladon8]

Wow.

[Spinal]

Why can't we just take him at his word when he says he's looking forward to it? Must every utterance on this website be challenged? Oh, the humanity.

[megladon8]

First it was wrong in saying I dislike Godard.

Then I couldn't say that I prefer Bergman to Godard. Because, you know, just because they both make movies doesn't mean that you can prefer one to the other.

Then I admit to some confusion on my part with regards to his films, and that I am going to check some of them out again to refresh my memory and see how I feel about them now that I'm not 14.

That's wrong too.

[endingcredits]

This thread is confusing.

[baby doll]

Then I couldn't say that I prefer Bergman to Godard. Because, you know, just because they both make movies doesn't mean that you can prefer one to the other.Well, this all started because exilir said that he (she?) couldn't think of a well-respected director whose work he didn't care for, and I ventured that I'm pretty indifferent to Bergman (although after watching The Virgin Spring and re-watching Winter's Light, maybe I'm starting to come around).

Now, your specific phrasing was that you found Bergman's work more "satisfying," which I take to mean on a story level. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) However, unlike Bergman, Godard isn't really a storyteller; as I said earlier, even his more commercial films from the '60s tends to digress all over the place. And one could argue that such digressions function as a kind of authorial commentary on the action (the most obvious examples are the voice-overs in Bande Ã* part and 2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle, where Godard is literally commenting on the story), which adds another level to the film, the trade off being that we don't get as emotionally invested in the story as we would in a Bergman film.

[elixir]

I'm a he. And I meant, that there has always been at least one work I've liked from a prolific director, I think. I'm sure if I went through it enough, I could find one.

But not the point.

They are both directors who made films. You can compare them. (Though I also believe you can compare anything. But there are varying degrees on how apt those comparisons may be, of course.)

All meg said was one director was better or that one's films was better. Not that one was better at storytelling specifically. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sycophant]

That assumption about story is weirdsville.

[baby doll]

I guess the problem I have with compare Godard to Bergman is that they make such fundamentally different kinds of movies that to say one is better than the other is like saying that one kind of cinema is more valid than another.

[Sycophant]

Probs shouldn't even be using the same rating system for different kinds of movies then.

[baby doll]

Probs shouldn't even be using the same rating system for different kinds of movies then.As Ebert would say, ratings are relative.

[Qrazy]

First it was wrong in saying I dislike Godard.

Then I couldn't say that I prefer Bergman to Godard. Because, you know, just because they both make movies doesn't mean that you can prefer one to the other.

Then I admit to some confusion on my part with regards to his films, and that I am going to check some of them out again to refresh my memory and see how I feel about them now that I'm not 14.

That's wrong too.

I think you may also be confused about who told you what. I don't think you're wrong to dislike Godard. I actually think you're right on the money and that is why I encourage you not to rewatch films of his you've seen and disliked. :)

[endingcredits]

I encourage you to rewatch all the Godard films you disliked and to like them instead.

[Sycophant]

First it was wrong in saying I dislike Godard.

According to some. I don't really like him either. Of the five or so films of his I've seen, I've only liked A Band of Outsiders.


Then I couldn't say that I prefer Bergman to Godard. Because, you know, just because they both make movies doesn't mean that you can prefer one to the other.

That's baby doll (and I think only baby doll) at his most nonsensical.

I also prefer Bergman to Godard.


Then I admit to some confusion on my part with regards to his films, and that I am going to check some of them out again to refresh my memory and see how I feel about them now that I'm not 14.

That's wrong too.

I'm always in favor of not standing by opinions you had when you were 14. It is a little funny that you've gotten confused about who made what films at various points.

[megladon8]

I guess the problem I have with compare Godard to Bergman is that they make such fundamentally different kinds of movies that to say one is better than the other is like saying that one kind of cinema is more valid than another.


There was no comparison being made. I never stated "Bergman is better than Godard at __________" or "Godard really can't do ________ the way Bergman does"

I like the films of Bergman more than the films of Godard.

This is really not a difficult concept to comprehend.

[Spinal]

Fin de Thread

[megladon8]

This thread is cinema.

[elixir]

This thread is truth at 24 posts per hour.

[Sycophant]

This thread is Match Cut.

[Ezee E]

Poll?

[Milky Joe]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6796/babydollp.jpg


http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6720/megj.jpg


http://sucktheday.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/squinty-leo.jpg?w=302&h=263

[Mysterious Dude]

This thread is truth at 24 posts per hour.
But every page-break is a lie.

[Boner M]

This thread is the world in four and a half pages.

[megladon8]

The world is cinema.

[Spinal]

We are the world.

[Watashi]

This thread sucks.

[Mysterious Dude]

This thread is thread.

[Sycophant]

This thread sucks.

Actually came into the thread to make this very post.

[megladon8]

Sucky threads are cinema.

[Boner M]

I'm glad you've finally changed your av, meg.

EDIT: I mean, your av change is cinema.

[Sycophant]

For some reason, that av makes me feel gross.

[megladon8]

Feeling gross is cinema.

[Spinal]

Jack Nicholson is gross. That could explain it.

[megladon8]

Jack Nicholson is cin-...

Oh screw it.

[Watashi]

Please delete this thread.

[Winston*]

I think the FDT should be locked and discussion should resume from this thread. It feels right.

[Russ]

Ever cracked open an egg and found a locked thread?

[megladon8]

I don't like my name being so closely associated with the death of MatchCut :cry:

[Ezee E]

I don't like my name being so closely associated with the death of MatchCut :cry:
Megladon8 and babydoll are each responsible.

[balmakboor]

This thread would've been awesome if it had been what I suggested, a place to shift what started out to be and could've continued to be a worthwhile discussion of Godard. Yes, I'm responsible. I'm to blame.

[MadMan]

I'd just like to say that I saw Alphville, and even though I didn't completely grasp all of its themes its one of the best sci-fi movies I've ever seen. I also like Contempt a lot. I'll probably view most of his 60s and 70s work, plus Breathless, and just call it a day. Based on hearing that after those decades he completely went all crazy film socialist, and I'm not really interested in that.

I've only seen The Seventh Seal from Bergman, which is amazing and in my Top 10. Never viewed a Fassbinder.

Oh wait, this thread is now just full on jokes and the thread title signals the end of Match-Cut? Okay. I'll leave now.

[baby doll]

Based on hearing that after those decades he completely went all crazy film socialist, and I'm not really interested in that.His most political phase was between 1968 and by the mid '70s. By 1980, he had essentially returned to making commercial films (his comeback movie Sauve qui peut (la vie) was even distributed by Francis Ford Coppola), although neither it nor any of his subsequent films were as widely seen in the US as Le Mépris.

Here's how I'd break it down:

1960-65: His most commercial phase, and notwithstanding Le Petit soldat, maybe his least political.

1965-67: Beginning with Pierrot le fou, his films become increasingly concerned with politics and more formally radical (as evidenced by Masculin féminin, Made in USA, La Chinoise, 2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle, and Weekend) without splitting decisively from the commercial cinema.

1968-72: Following the events of May '68, he becomes a full blown Maoist and teams up with Jean-Pierre Gorrin to make a series of straight-faced Marxist tracts, the best known being Tout va bien.

1975-79: On the set of Tout va bien, he meets Anne-Marie Miéville, who becomes his partner and frequent collaborator on such works as Ici et ailleurs and France/tour/detour/deux/enfants, which are less political and more philosophical. During this time, he begins experimenting video.

1980-93: While continuing to make videos, he directs a number of feature films in 35mm with mainstream French stars, such as Isabelle Huppert (Passion), Johnny Halliday (Détective), and Gerard Depardieu (Hélas pour moi) among others. Although politics are still present in Passion and Allemagne Année 90 Neuf Zéro, on the other hand Détective, Je vous salue, Marie, King Lear, and Hèlas pour moi are largely apolitical. During this period, he makes the first two installments of Histoire(s) du cinéma.

1997-present: Godard stops casting stars in his films (presumably because he no longer needs them to get his work financed), and completes Histoire(s) du cinéma in 1998. Politics are largely replaced by history (the French resistance in Éloge de l'amour and the Bosnian war in Notre musique).

[balmakboor]

Godard really has had a fascinating career and even the films that I've found difficult to gain access have whispered in my ear that I should keep working at it, I won't be sorry.

He is also one of the few directors who truly rivals Fassbinder for output. That '65 to '67 period -- my favorite period -- had like six films that are pretty much masterpieces.

[MadMan]

His most political phase was between 1968 and by the mid '70s. By 1980, he had essentially returned to making commercial films (his comeback movie Sauve qui peut (la vie) was even distributed by Francis Ford Coppola), although neither it nor any of his subsequent films were as widely seen in the US as Le Mépris.

Here's how I'd break it down:

1960-65: His most commercial phase, and notwithstanding Le Petit soldat, maybe his least political.

1965-67: Beginning with Pierrot le fou, his films become increasingly concerned with politics and more formally radical (as evidenced by Masculin féminin, Made in USA, La Chinoise, 2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle, and Weekend) without splitting decisively from the commercial cinema.

1968-72: Following the events of May '68, he becomes a full blown Maoist and teams up with Jean-Pierre Gorrin to make a series of straight-faced Marxist tracts, the best known being Tout va bien.

1975-79: On the set of Tout va bien, he meets Anne-Marie Miéville, who becomes his partner and frequent collaborator on such works as Ici et ailleurs and France/tour/detour/deux/enfants, which are less political and more philosophical. During this time, he begins experimenting video.

1980-93: While continuing to make videos, he directs a number of feature films in 35mm with mainstream French stars, such as Isabelle Huppert (Passion), Johnny Halliday (Détective), and Gerard Depardieu (Hélas pour moi) among others. Although politics are still present in Passion and Allemagne Année 90 Neuf Zéro, on the other hand Détective, Je vous salue, Marie, King Lear, and Hèlas pour moi are largely apolitical. During this period, he makes the first two installments of Histoire(s) du cinéma.

1997-present: Godard stops casting stars in his films (presumably because he no longer needs them to get his work financed), and completes Histoire(s) du cinéma in 1998. Politics are largely replaced by history (the French resistance in Éloge de l'amour and the Bosnian war in Notre musique).Huh, I guess I didn't know that much about his work. Any further recommendations? I have Band of Outsiders in my queue, and I taped Breathless off of TCM a while back. Those are the only two I plan to view at the moment. I know that Criterion has a decent amount of his movies in their collection.

[elixir]

I haven't seen nearly as much as some people here (only some of his 60s work), but I'd strongly recommend the following...Vivre Sa Vie (My Life to Live), Masculin Feminin, and Pierrot Le Fou.

[baby doll]

Huh, I guess I didn't know that much about his work. Any further recommendations? I have Band of Outsiders in my queue, and I taped Breathless off of TCM a while back. Those are the only two I plan to view at the moment. I know that Criterion has a decent amount of his movies in their collection.Well, those two (and Alphaville and Le Mépris, which you've already seen) are a good start. From the same period, I'd say that Vivre sa vie is essential, and Le Petit soldat is quite strong as well. From phase 1A, Pierrot le fou and Weekend are obviously essential, and Masculin féminin is worth a glance (though not one of my personal favorites). If you're feeling adventurous, try out Made in USA, his short film Anticipation (which you can watch on YouTube), 2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle, La Chinoise, and Sympathy for the Devil (aka One Plus One).

Of his Maoist films, I've just seen La Gai savoir and Tout va bien, both of which I need to re-watch. Of his films from the late '70s, Ici et ailleurs is essential (and on YouTube), and I've just seen the first six episodes of France/tour/detour/deux/enfants, but what I've seen is pretty amazing (the first five are on UbuWeb).

From the 80s and early 90s, I'm partial to Passion, Détective, Je vous salue, Marie, Soft and Hard (a surprisingly accessible forty-minute video that's also on YouTube), King Lear (an English language feature starring Molly Ringwald that was produced by the same Israeli company that made most of Chuck Norris' movies), Allemagne année 90 neuf zéro (YouTube), and Hélas pour moi.

Of the later late period stuff, Histoire(s) du cinéma, Éloge de l'amour, Dans le noir du temps (a ten minute video that's on YouTube), Liberté et patrie, Notre musique, and Film socialisme are all more or less essential.

And there's still a ton of stuff I haven't seen.

[Mysterious Dude]

This is a bit off-topic, but what's the deal with Godard being a Maoist? Mao inflicted so much devastation and horror upon China. How could anyone be a Maoist after the Great Leap Forward?

On-topic: Tout va bien is the most unwatchable movie ever made.

[baby doll]

This is a bit off-topic, but what's the deal with Godard being a Maoist? Mao inflicted so much devastation and horror upon China. How could anyone be a Maoist after the Great Leap Forward?In France in the 1960s, Stalin had been totally discredited in left-wing circles, and Maoism was seen as a more vigorous alternative to the old French communist party, which sided with De Gaulle against the protests of May '68. I don't think they knew very much of what was happening in China.