Blue Valentine

[DavidSeven]

There really isn't a young American thespian on Ryan Gosling's level right now. He delivers a staggering performance in Blue Valentine -- equal in its charm and tragedy. He cements himself as generational leader opposite Michelle Williams, who unsurprisingly makes a convincing argument of her own for leading thesp powerhouse.

Blue Valentine rarely strays from the expected, but the details are conveyed with such unfaltering honesty as to make this a wholly unique experience. In retrospect, this is a pretty obvious film, but as an in-the-moment experience, it's captivating and a film that draws you into the details of human action and inaction. I forgive Derek Cianfrance for his Dardenne aping because Blue Valentine is a rare film that actually earns its verite style. In some combination of direction, writing, and performance, the film manages to convey dramatically engrossing honesty, and it would only be a shame to distract from that with the artificiality of stylized filmmaking. Yet this is clearly more than point-and-shoot direction. The opening shot and closing shot/credits are particularly mesmerizing cinematic moments. I do wish a few scenes portraying men, such as Cindy's ex-boyfriend and her father, as rather absolute brutes were either handled with more nuance or excised altogether. The depth of Gosling and Williams' portrayals, however, compensates for those few moments of lazy characterization and really justify the existence of this film on their own. One of the year's best.

[number8]

This just happened last night, actually:

"So Arya, what's the best movie you recently saw?"
"Last movie I saw in theaters that I really like was Blue Valentine. Have you seen it?"
"No. That's a good one to go see, then?"
"Yeah. Don't take a date to it, though."
"Really? Why?"
"Uh, you'll understand when you see it."
"It's not going to help me with her, huh?"
"It's... going to do the exact opposite."
"What if the relationship isn't going so well...?"
"Oh, if you're trying to break up with your girlfriend, then yes, the movie can be helpful."

[DavidSeven]

Yeah, this isn't a first date movie. That'd be like showing someone interested in trying drugs for the first time the last half hour of Requiem for a Dream and then handing her a needle.

[number8]

I contest your excising of the dad, though, because that particular background provided a nice added parallel in Williams' mom. The movie actually portrays three broken marriages: the main couple's and each of their parents'.

I like how subtle the movie was in suggesting Williams' mom left her dad, inspired by Gosling's mom.

[DavidSeven]

But I do think it's fair to read ambiguity in the ending. The closing credits interpreted as reminiscence of good times by the leads leaves room for optimism, and the closing events in the narrative are fresh enough to rule out solid conclusions one way or the other. But yeah, this isn't exactly "rah! rah! love!" here.

[number8]

But I do think it's fair to read ambiguity in the ending. The closing credits interpreted as reminiscence of good times by the leads leaves room for optimism, and the closing events in the narrative are fresh enough to rule out solid conclusions one way or the other. But yeah, this isn't exactly "rah! rah! love!" here.

In regard to it being a date movie, I don't think the ending matters at all. The point is that even the happiest of relationships, regardless of whether or not they end up together again afterward, will go through the dark patch as they get older and the responsibilities of life catch up. I think that's what could potentially scare people in dating mode.

[DavidSeven]

I contest your excising of the dad, though, because that particular background provided a nice added parallel in Williams' mom. The movie actually portrays three broken marriages: the main couple's and each of their parents'.

I like how subtle the movie was in suggesting Williams' mom left her dad, inspired by Gosling's mom.

Generally, I didn't have a problem with the dad, but I thought that meatloaf scene was a bit overdone and on-the-nose. Would have preferred that scene to be done with a little more nuance or to be excised in favor of a better short scene that also conveyed the lack of love between her mother and father.

[DavidSeven]

In regard to it being a date movie, I don't think the ending matters at all. The point is that even the happiest of relationships, regardless of whether or not they end up together again afterward, will go through the dark patch as they get older and the responsibilities of life catch up. I think that's what could potentially scare people in dating mode.

True. But the ending just might throw a wrench into a plan of using this film as a perfect break-up movie for a relationship that's already seen its ups and downs. Assuming the mate views film endings optimistically.

[NickGlass]

Hm, I thought pretty much all the supporting characters strained the raw, hard-earned realism. The two central characters are so commanding that it seems everyone forgot to develop the ridiculous supporting characters (Williams' ex-boyfriend, the doctor, etc.).

As I've mentioned before, I was predictably mesmerized by Gosling and Williams (prefer Williams, though, since Gosling skirts the risible occasionally and she's given a shallower, moderately misogynistic character to work with), and I liked the film fine, but the only aspect of the film I found surprising--yes, the juxtaposition is totally on-the-nose, if occasionally effective--was the complete lack of support these brilliantly committed lead performances were given.

[megladon8]

Ryan Gosling is Canadian.

[DavidSeven]

Ryan Gosling is Canadian.

Oops. North American then. Though, shit, we could make an argument for worldwide, couldn't we? He tore the house down in this and Half-Nelson and is pretty great in Lars and the Real Girl.

[megladon8]

So what was the reason for all the "should this be NC-17???" controversy before its release?

Is it like, super-sexually-explicit or something?

Some articles made it sound like Ken Park.

[number8]

Is it like, super-sexually-explicit or something?

No.


So what was the reason for all the "should this be NC-17???" controversy before its release?

Retardery.

[NickGlass]

Is it like, super-sexually-explicit or something?

No, not at all.


Some articles made it sound like Ken Park.

Those articles must have been written by people who (a) have not seen Blue Valentine, (b) have not seen Ken Park, or (c) are stupid.

[DavidSeven]

So what was the reason for all the "should this be NC-17???" controversy before its release?

I think it boils down to this: portraying sex with stylized sensuality is OK, even if you show everything short of penetration, but portraying sex realistically is a total no-no, even if it's not sensual at all and you show significantly less.

Basically, retardery.

[TripZone]

Not one person or critic has noted the Gare du Nord connection.

[Ezee E]

I really want to see this, but I'm also very afraid to see this. I'm sure the performances are great, but I'm sure it's just painful to watch.

[Boner M]

Yeah, I was gonna start a thread about this but I didn't have much to say beyond "aww shucks, it's just really honest, y'know?". Good review, although I don't know where your Dardenne bros comparison comes from.

[Boner M]

I thought the film could've done w/o the Grizzly Bear score, though. It's nice on its own, but it just felt like unnecessary ornamentation.

[Winston*]

Oops. North American then. Though, shit, we could make an argument for worldwide, couldn't we? He tore the house down in this and Half-Nelson and is pretty great in Lars and the Real Girl.

Really good in The Believer also.

[Ivan Drago]

I thought the film could've done w/o the Grizzly Bear score, though. It's nice on its own, but it just felt like unnecessary ornamentation.

Grizzly Bear did the score for this? Sweet.

[DavidSeven]

Yeah, I was gonna start a thread about this but I didn't have much to say beyond "aww shucks, it's just really honest, y'know?". Good review, although I don't know where your Dardenne bros comparison comes from.

I'm just using Dardenne bros as a shorthand for indie, European cinema verite aesthetic, which I'm truthfully not the biggest fan of in most instances. I've only seen one of their films (L'Enfant), so I'm sure taking a lot of nuances for granted. Just wanted to highlight the point that the film's "honesty" warrants its use of that aesthetic more than other films that feel more dramatically stylized.

[Ezee E]

Going to see this tomorrow. I plan on coming back a mess.

[origami_mustache]

Really, loved this. Easily the best American film of the year for me.

[Ezee E]

The acting is raw, and the emotion is legit, but I have to wonder, why bother? The story is basically obvious in how it's going to end, and I have to question if they were ever really in love anyways. The scene with the grandma is probably the best representative of the movie in which she's asked if she knows what love is. The main victime out of all this is the child, although maybe she has a chance since the parents look like they'll actually separate, but probably not because both parents are pretty miserable in their own right.

[Pop Trash]

I'm just using Dardenne bros as a shorthand for indie, European cinema verite aesthetic, which I'm truthfully not the biggest fan of in most instances. I've only seen one of their films (L'Enfant), so I'm sure taking a lot of nuances for granted. Just wanted to highlight the point that the film's "honesty" warrants its use of that aesthetic more than other films that feel more dramatically stylized.

You have seen Cassavetes' films right? This is Cassavetes through and through. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I found it brutal, honest, well done in it's shallow focus, tight claustrophobic way. Film Comment's review seemed to dismiss it based on "the characters are uninteresting," but that is what I loved about it. Neither person is compelling, just regular working-class Americans.

The only scene that bothered me, and I fully admit it's for my own personal, political reasons was the:

abortion scene. I realize that after the first couple of months of pregnancy, an abortion isn't going to be a walk in the park, but I felt that scene could have been handled better. It's the only scene that threw me out of the film. Greenberg had a better abortion scene, but the gold standard is still Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

[elixir]

You have seen Cassavetes' films right? This is Cassavetes through and through. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I found it brutal, honest, well done in it's shallow focus, tight claustrophobic way. Film Comment's review seemed to dismiss it based on "the characters are uninteresting," but that is what I loved about it. Neither person is compelling, just regular working-class Americans.

The only scene that bothered me, and I fully admit it's for my own personal, political reasons was the:

abortion scene. I realize that after the first couple of months of pregnancy, an abortion isn't going to be a walk in the park, but I felt that scene could have been handled better. Greenberg had a better abortion scene, but the gold standard is still Fast Times at Ridgemont High.


Did you have a problem with the decision itself...or how it was handled? If the latter, what specifically rang false to you? I do like the Fast Times scene quite a bit.

Just as an overall comment, I thought the film was very good, although the ex-boyfriend storyline/character perhaps should have been fleshed out more (and maybe the father as well), and some juxtapositions were perhaps a bit too on-the-nose. Nonetheless, it was (as been noted) very well-acted and raw, and I did genuinely believed what I saw on screen. I think it was one of the better movies this past year, and certainly one of the best American movies from 2010.

[Pop Trash]

Did you have a problem with the decision itself...or how it was handled? If the latter, what specifically rang false to you? I do like the Fast Times scene quite a bit.


I'm not sure if it rang false exactly. And I especially liked that the answers to the nurse's questions told us a lot about William's character without being didactic about it. I just feel like (and again I fully admit this is my personal beef with how Americans and American films handle abortion) if I was reading the screenplay for that filmmaker, an alarm bell would go off during that scene and I would bring up a re-write, unless the filmmaker had a clear reason for her stopping the abortion midway. Plus it did make an abortion look like some terrible process you would never want to go through, and I question what ideas that would put in the minds of impressionable young women that see this flick (my audience was probably 80% women BTW).

[number8]

It's because the movie made it seem like...

Abortion would've been a mistake and it's a big relief that she changed her mind at the last second, even though in her situation, abortion would and should have been a perfectly acceptable course of action...

..isn't it? The thought crossed my mind, too, but it's only another one of many decisions in the film that I wouldn't personally agree with, either. After further thought, I think the emotion and decision are fitting for those characters.

[number8]

Oops, too late. Guess you answered it.

[TripZone]

It's because the movie made it seem like...

Abortion would've been a mistake and it's a big relief that she changed her mind at the last second, even though in her situation, abortion would and should have been a perfectly acceptable course of action...

The film doesn't express an opinion on her decision.

[Ezee E]

I don't know. If she had gotten an abortion, surely she'd not have continued a relationship with Dean much longer. I don't think it would've made her any happier in life as she seemed to be the type of person that almost sought drama in her life, even if she doesn't know it, but at least she wouldn't have that relationship to deal with.

[Ezee E]

Regardless, I didn't think the movie took a stance on abortion though.

[Ezee E]

BTW, I don't know if it was intended for laughs, but I laughed out loud in the "Future Room" where the phone started to ring, Dean yelled for his wife to pick it up, only for the phone to be within arm's reach of him. Basically sums up Dean as a whole right there, but with a comedic touch.

[Pop Trash]

The film doesn't express an opinion on her decision.

No, but it did present having an abortion as being the most uncomfortable thing in the world. And the whole -stopping the abortion midway- thing seemed a tad contrived in a movie that clearly was going for -and often succeded at- a natural honesty.

[TripZone]

An abortion would be pretty awful. But even then, I don't agree the film makes a horror sequence out of it. I see a completely even account of a young woman who thinks it's awful, and decides to, ahem, abort the abortion. As for contrivance...what? Is having an abortion more in line with "natural honesty"? Strange.

[Philosophe_rouge]

I don't think the film makes the abortion particularly horrific either. As terrible, uncomfortable and clinical as it is -- the doctor's and nurse seem as considerate as they possibly could be. They are very reassuring, calm and understanding. It's a difficult scene no doubt, but I wouldn't say it's depiction sides against it.

[TripZone]

Whereas the abortion scene in Enter the Void has them hacking into her body. I don't think that was horrifically presented either, but more so than in BV!

[number8]

I actually wasn't referring to the portrayal of the procedure at all, which was fine since it was so clinical and presumably accurate. You have to take perception into account. I was talking about how there was no on-screen argument given for the decision. She just comes to the realization that she wants to keep the baby rather arbitrarily, and yet everything works out because she has another guy adopting the baby as his own. That initially gave me pause in what message it's sending across, but like I said, ultimately I think the emotion and decision are fitting for those characters.

Honestly, this would be a non-issue if the real world would stop looking at abortions as some kind of terrible hot button topic. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in.

[Ezee E]

Also, I don't see why the supporting characters would need to be fleshed out anymore. We already know that the father is essentially what Dean would become down the line. The Doctor's story is already pretty obvious, and the Ex-Boyfriend's is as well. I'm not sure what else could've been added to the latter two.

Another part that interested me was when Williams was asked if she remained faithful to her husband. That's a loaded question right there, and Williams pulls it off perfectly. Was it alluding to her cheating on him? Is she feeling guilt for cheating on Dean (assuming she did at some point)? Both? Tough stuff right there.

I guess I should say there's a lot of stuff going on in the movie to talk about, but I just don't see a reason why I'd ever consider watching it again.

[TripZone]

I agree that there's not much to hold onto, despite the brazen emotionality and superb acting it's not a great film.

[B-side]

Blue Valentine deserves the comparisons to Cassavetes. I mean, damn. Raw, undiluted emotion. I suppose I'll be toeing the line on this one. It's sort of an anti-Hollywood romance in that there's no grand reconciliation at the end, and Dean is the hapless, spontaneous romantic and Cindy is the rational, embittered worker. In that sense it's purely of the now, with the ever-increasing number of women choosing to opt out of settling down early and instead choosing to pursue a career, placing their love lives on the back burner, and possibly their own happiness. I don't know that this in particular applies here as perhaps these two simply were never going to work out. What's best here is that neither character is made out to be the sole culprit in the relationship going sour. Hints of jealousy weigh on Dean and Cindy seems to have long given up. It's odd because it never really seemed to have been made particularly clear why Cindy had given up. Dean was certainly flawed, but his issues in particular were never shown as incredibly intrusive or overwhelming. Perhaps it was simply because she had just fallen out of love. The conversation in the future room about potential could definitely be more pertinent than I initially thought as it definitely relates to her career-driven attitude expounded on earlier and later on. I think this ambiguity is a big part in why the film is so effective. No fingers are pointed; just flaws detailed, circumstances documented and convention defied. The elderly have the experience, but there's no romanticism for past love as if it were somehow littered with storybook romances sans the strife, pain and concessions of the present.

[Derek]

We already know that the father is essentially what Dean would become down the line.

Uh, no we don't. I completely disagree that Dean would become just like her father. I think she was afraid of being like her mother and forever stuck in a loveless marriage, but Dean, even at his worst, is not much like her father.


Dean was certainly flawed, but his issues in particular were never shown as incredibly intrusive or overwhelming. Perhaps it was simply because she had just fallen out of love. The conversation in the future room about potential could definitely be more pertinent than I initially thought as it definitely relates to her career-driven attitude expounded on earlier and later on.

I thought it was made fairly clear that he was suffocating her. She was independent and had her own dreams, outside of marrying him, and I got the sense that as she tried to claim her independence or make space for herself, he tried to hold onto her even closer. Their resulting downfall seemed to stem from sheer exhaustion from this constant push/pull. Not that that's the only cause (I agree the film did a great job of avoiding simple causalities or pointing fingers), but it did play a large part.

[Ezee E]

His increased intake of alcohol, his occasional scream at her (such as the pet dying), and the threats at the doctor certainly seemed like what the father was probably like in the similar marriage at that age. Add twenty more years of that, and he'd end up just like the father.

Agreed on him suffocating her though. They moved further away so it was harder for her to get to the job.

I'm up in the air about this. THere's lots to talk about, and it's certainly not an enjoyable experience, but it's not intended to be. Don't know.

[Raiders]

Yeah the film is obvious and yeah the supporting characters are varying degrees of corny and hyperbolic (the film especially seems to have thought up their dialogue as an afterthought it is so silly much of the time), but I haven't seen an American film this brutal in a long time. What makes it so is not the intensity of the present-day scenes, but the sheer beauty of the flashbacks. Cianfrance shows a very delicate and graceful handling of those flashback sequences (the dancing/singing moment outside the store is among the finest scenes of the year) that it makes the verite emotionality so utterly heartbreaking. Not to mention that the praise for Gosling and Williams is extremely deserving.

I wasn't surprised and didn't necessarily "learn" or take any great meaning from the film, but when it is so beautifully and thoughtfully constructed, and so inspiringly and gracefully tells its story, so what? Gorgeous, emotional and fierce filmmaking.

[Henry Gale]

I was really blown away by it. It's not perfect, but it builds an emotional core and dynamic between its characters/actors that's so much more effective and feels way more authentic than almost any film I can recall from the last year.

I don't think every film like this needs to have its actors prepare for 6 to 9 years with dozens of incarnations of a script, have them live together, then improvise every scene and have the director only allow one take. But under these circumstances, it clearly paid off because with or without that it has a feel to it so unlike anything that seems to be attempted with stories like this these days, especially in film.

It's scenes like the one where Gosling sings and plays the ukelele in front of the store as Williams dances goofily that I found to be one the most strangely moving moments of anything I've probably seen all year. It could have been its placement in the narrative, but I'd more attribute it so just how good the actors and the circumstances Cianfrance and the creative team (which even includes Gosling and Williams as producers) set up for this project. Because again, apparently that scene was improvised as the director just shot nonstop for a whole night, and yet it feels more thought out and then done to perfection more than so many slice of life relationship moments in so many other movies.

I compare that to the scene in The Kids Are All Right where Annette Bening sings the Joni Mitchell at the dinner table (for whatever reason), and how much that just sort of made me cringe and feel completely detached from the film, no matter how much it tried to show some of the characters look like they felt similarly uncomfortable, and is somewhat redeemed by Mark Ruffalo's awkward but hilarious response. Above all, something like that feels like it's trying to deliver a similar emotional catharsis of a character through an unprompted music moment, but it just feels so much more mechanical and falsely affected than the one in Blue Valentine scene, which I'm not sure I can even properly describe because the one in the latter film just conjures such unique feelings of it being just a much richer, smoother and more natural moment.

****

[DavidSeven]

Gosling was so robbed. Would anyone seriously contend that Eisenberg, who was perfectly fine in his movie, was even on the same tier of excellence as him?

[Henry Gale]

Gosling was so robbed. Would anyone seriously contend that Eisenberg, who was perfectly fine in his movie, was even on the same tier of excellence as him?

Oh there's no doubt he should have been nominated, but I think in this particular scenario, it has more to do with the fact that Eisenberg was in The Social Network and that Gosling was in this movie. One had a fairly big budget, highly publicized major release, $200 million worldwide box office, almost universally amazing reviews, 8 Oscar nominations overall, and the other had about 1/40th of Fincher's film's production and likely marketing budgets, very good but not across-the-board-great reviews, only one Oscar nomination, and was just a much more depressing film in general.

Also, it was just a pretty crowded field of hopefuls this year, with the only shift between this and the SAG awards (who has basically the exact same group voting) was that they favoured Bardem instead of Duvall for their Oscar ballots.

[Spinal]

This was brutal. Really good, but man. Kind of killed my weekend.

[Dukefrukem]

I was really blown away by it. It's not perfect, but it builds an emotional core and dynamic between its characters/actors that's so much more effective and feels way more authentic than almost any film I can recall from the last year.

****

I agree with this. (the 4th movie I watched over the weekend) This was pretty great and probably the best movie I've seen all year as well. The placement of the cuts between present time and flashbacks were perfect. In some instances the movie even tricks you and you feel like it's just a continuation of the previous scene, but it's really a flashback. I loved that. Was Gosling nominated for this??

[Ezee E]

I agree with this. (the 4th movie I watched over the weekend) This was pretty great and probably the best movie I've seen all year as well. The placement of the cuts between present time and flashbacks were perfect. In some instances the movie even tricks you and you feel like it's just a continuation of the previous scene, but it's really a flashback. I loved that. Was Gosling nominated for this??
He won where it mattered (http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=3423&highlight=matchies&page=8)

[Boner M]

KF, did you post any thoughts on this? The 2-stars in your sig are kinda surprising.

[Spinal]

KF, did you post any thoughts on this? The 2-stars in your sig are kinda surprising.

Netflix Instant Watch thread.

[Watashi]

I finally got around to watching this. One of the best films of the last 10 years in my opinion. How the fuck did Award circles ignore Gosling and Williams?

I can't wait for The Place Beyond the Pines.