Disney's "Tangled"

[megladon8]

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6594/tangled.jpg


Disney's new film is a re-telling of the famous fairy tale "Rapunzel", with Mandy Moore voicing the story's titular princess with long locks.

Other voices include Zachary Levi, Ron Perlman, Brad Garrett, Donna Murphy and Jeffrey Tambor.


A bunch of new photos appeared on IMDb's front page today, and I was kind of surprised to find that this is a CG-animated film. From the initial stills I saw several months back I thought it was going to be a traditional 2D-animated feature. I guess they were just pieces of concept art.

[Spinal]

I've seen the trailer a couple of times now before other stuff. I was not encouraged. But who knows?

wCxuxrLNrsw

[megladon8]

I really feel "behind" for not knowing this was a CG-animated feature. I didn't even know there was a trailer out already.

These (and the one I posted to start the thread) were the only shots I'd seen up until this evening, and so I thought it was a traditionally animated film...


Spoiler'd to save peoples' load times...


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/631/tangled4.jpg
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3463/tangled2.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9364/tangled3.jpg

[Raiders]

Yeah, this was before Toy Story 3 and it looked positively atrocious.

[Mara]

Wow... that looks just... awful.

[Spinal]

I'm not sure why you would approach the Rapunzel story from the point of view of her male suitor, but that's just me.

[Mara]

I'm not sure why you would approach the Rapunzel story from the point of view of her male suitor, but that's just me.

Entainment Weekly (so it's not scripture) said that the film doesn't focus on the prince at all-- but that no boys came out to see the frog princess movie, so they're trying to market it more to males.

[Dukefrukem]

Zachary Levi? who?

[Sycophant]

A Google search tells me he is Chuck from TV's Chuck! So he is actually yeah kinda famous yeah!

[[ETM]]

Zachary Levi? who?

Leave your geek credentials at the door before you leave.

[Spinal]

Entainment Weekly (so it's not scripture) said that the film doesn't focus on the prince at all-- but that no boys came out to see the frog princess movie, so they're trying to market it more to males.

I now feel guilty for not taking my boy to the frog princess movie.

[Grouchy]

That was embarassing.

[MadMan]

No. Just no. Next!

[Mara]

Zachary Levi? who?

Aww, he's a cutie patootie. He's been picking some stupid projects, though.

[Wryan]

How the fuck can she control her hair like that?

Anyway, looks bad, but I had a dream about a darker telling in which Rapunzel is a witch and traps a prince in her tall tower out of jealousy and lust and general insanity. He eventually has to kill her in a way that enables him to climb down to safety and get back to his kingdom in one piece.

[D_Davis]

That concept art looks about a millions times better than the final CG in the trailer.

[Dukefrukem]

I don't know why people think this looks so bad. So she can control her hair... so what? it's fairytale... you know like... Beauty and the Beast?

[Sycophant]

At the time of its announcement, Glen Keane was talking about how this movie would use some new processes to make it look like to Rococo painting instead of a CG-animated feature. I think it was supposed to be a slightly more classic take on the fairy tale, too. This, however, looks exactly like every other Shrek-era CG animation since 2001.

Wikipedia leads me to believe the emphasis on the thief character may have more impact on the story than the above suggests. They also changed the title from Rapunzel to Tangled, apparenlty as a marketing decision to get more boys.


Floyd Norman, a retired Disney and Pixar animator, said, "I'm convinced they'll gain nothing from this except the public seeing Disney as desperately trying to find an audience."

He's probably right. This is probably not going to be very good. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it seems very unlikely. This was in development since before the integration of Pixar management, but I thought they were there to keep things like this from happening.

Walt Disney Feature Animation is a mess. They're thinking entirely with their marketing dicks.

Speaking of which, this is a questionable idea, but if they want to get young boys slightly more interested in their princess movies, put Rapunzel in a glorified bra a la Ariel and Jasmine. Unless the boys of 2010 aren't the same as the boys of 1990.

Oh, and maybe market the movies as if they might be tolerable to adults.

Or instead of focusing on WACKY IRREVERENCE, maybe show us the dark forces opposing our heroes? Ursula, Jafar, Scar, and company were compelling designs and presences. Maybe. I dunno.

Disney Feature Animation probably needs to lose this committee approach. It just hasn't worked as well since they lost Walt. They probably need to suffer a decimation like they had in the seventies so they can be reborn with fresh creative personnel backed by brilliant technicians later like a couple decades later like they were in the eighties.

[Sycophant]

A blog full of Glen Keane's art (http://theartofglenkeane.blogspot.com/), which I think is a good argument for why Keane shouldn't be animation director for something that's probably mandated to look as bland as this.

[[ETM]]

Unless the boys of 2010 aren't the same as Watashi.

Fixed.

[megladon8]

I don't know why people think this looks so bad. So she can control her hair... so what? it's fairytale... you know like... Beauty and the Beast?


It's nothing to do with that.

It's the terribly written humor and seemingly poor (by Disney/Pixar standards) voicework.

[Grouchy]

Maybe she's an Inhuman like Medusa:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/MedusaFF99.jpg

Being a comic book nerd means that your suspension of disbelief very very rarely fails you.

[Fezzik]

This was surprisingly awesome.

The marketing department, or whomever put together the trailer for this movie, needs to be soundly flogged.

They totally misrepresented it. It's funny, charming and does indeed harken back a bit to the 1990s run that Disney had.

The songs were a welcome touch, especially Murphy's number, 'Mother Knows Best,' which stands apart as a master class in passive-aggressiveness.

The voice work is good, too, and Menken's score is excellent.

The movie is good to very good until Rapunzel and Flynn get to the Kingdom's capital city. From that point on it leaps into great to classic territory.

And I want a chameleon.

[megladon8]

That's great to hear, Fezzik.

I gotta admit I was/am caught off guard by how positive the reviews are.

The commercials and trailers really did make it look terrible. But I LOVE Disney, and I want to love going to see Disney movies again.

Maybe I'll check this one out.

[KK2.0]

I always say this but it's worth repeating: nearly every trailer for animated movies are horrible, they cram lots of jokes trying to get the kids' attention and they fall flat out of context for adults.

The film's looks were not as ground-breaking as they promised, but Glen Keane is a master animator and i expected at least a quality film.

[number8]

What the hell, I had no idea until today that this was apparently the most expensive CG animated film ever made. $260 million? Jesus.

[Henry Gale]

What the hell, I had no idea until today that this was apparently the most expensive CG animated film ever made. $260 million? Jesus.

There's a point where I really can't fathom where all of that money went. It's been in development for ages, so ok, that's a chunk that may have stacked up to whoever may have been paid as they came and went from the project over time. But then there's only so much else I can actually see being spread across for animators, processing power, merchandising and the creative crew and stars (and even there, Mandy Moore and the guy from Chuck don't scream $$$). Unless that also includes advertising, which I will say there's been a ton of.

Still though, even Toy Story 3 didn't cost that much.

[TGM]

I was pleasantly surprised by it. I went in expecting some kind of Dreamworks crap (the trailer does this movie absolutely no justice at all), but it's a total throwback to classic Disney movies. It's a great film, with some really catchy songs, and a satisfyingly charming story.

It's definitely one of the better animated films of recent times, and it's a shame that it appears to have gone largely ignored (at least online I don't ever see anyone talking about it). I think I actually might have even enjoyed it more than Toy Story 3.

[Barty]

This was really great. Like, holy shit this is a classic.

And Rapunzel is hot. Watashi better definitely back me up on this.

[Watashi]

This was really great. Like, holy shit this is a classic.

And Rapunzel is hot. Watashi better definitely back me up on this.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/521/tang123a.gif

I have taught you wisely.

[Mara]

Charming, with universally likeable characters (even the villians are charismatic.) The music won't change the world, but the songs are digestible and well-sung.

Also, this was one of the most unabashedly romantic animated films I've seen in some time. (I want to say the most romantic since The Incredibles.) The story felt more honest than I expected (the cut scenes between "I'm free! I'm free!" and "I'm a horrible daughter!" rang very true.)

The story managed to surpise me a few times, and the visuals were lovely. The faces looked cool without being creepy, and I only felt strange about them when they were wet, because the skin looked like wet plastic instead of wet flesh. That's a minor point, though.

Even the now-ubiquitious action sequences were kept within reason and managed to be visually interesting, and heaven knows I have little patience for that sort of thing.

Thank you guys for convincing me to give this a shot. I would have never seen it based on the trailer.

Whoever marketed this should be kicked in the shins repeatedly.

[Fezzik]

Whoever marketed this should be kicked in the shins repeatedly.

QFT.

I am beginning to think that the marketing department at Disney is misrepresenting their films on purpose in retaliation for Lasseter basically dressing them down when he came aboard.

[Watashi]

More people need to see this movie.

The lantern scene is the most beautiful scene I've seen all year.

[Mara]

The lantern scene is the most beautiful scene I've seen all year.

So, so pretty. I didn't see it in 3D, but at that moment I wished I had. I was strongly reminded of the "Kiss the Girl" scene in The Little Mermaid, but in a good way, not a rip-off way.

RE: the trailer. That whole scene where she beats him up with her hair DOESN'T EVEN HAPPEN. Because she can't control her hair. BECAUSE THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

[Mara]

Go see, go see. I know a number of you gentlemen have sons, and I think they'd like it. (It's not "girly," and neither the boy nor the girl play the part of the idiot. Why do they do that in animated couples?)

[Mara]

And let's talk about Jeffrey Tambor and Brad Garrett in "I've Got a Dream." Because that voice casting was just inspired.

[Watashi]

You forgot to mention the horse, Mara. It's all about the horse. What could have been easily drawn as a two-dimensional comic relief is actually one of the more well-developed characters in the entire film.

[Mara]

You forgot to mention the horse, Mara. It's all about the horse. What could have been easily drawn as a two-dimensional comic relief is actually one of the more well-developed characters in the entire film.

Both non-verbal animals (Max and Pascal) and well-rounded and funny. Especially the running gag where Max acts like a puppy (sniffing, being obedient, etc.) And the frying pan gag could have been a one-off joke, but they kept bringing it back, and back, and it just kept getting funnier. ("Frying pans! Who knew?")

And Gothel. Talk about manipulative, passive-aggressive and mean. The line where she insinuates that Rapunzel is getting fat, the three little girls in the row in front of me actually hissed through their teeth. It's tempting to make a "bad guy" in an kids' flick be obviously, openly bad, but kids aren't stupid. They know destructive when they see it.

[Mara]

Dude. DUDE. The scene where Eugene fights Max, and Eugene has a frying pan, and Max is clutching a sword in his teeth? "I think you should know this is the strangest thing I've ever done!"

[TGM]

Wow, someone really loved this movie! :D

[Spinal]

RE: the trailer. That whole scene where she beats him up with her hair DOESN'T EVEN HAPPEN. Because she can't control her hair. BECAUSE THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

Wow. This, more than anything, has convinced me to give it a shot.

[Fezzik]

And Gothel. Talk about manipulative, passive-aggressive and mean. The line where she insinuates that Rapunzel is getting fat, the three little girls in the row in front of me actually hissed through their teeth. It's tempting to make a "bad guy" in an kids' flick be obviously, openly bad, but kids aren't stupid. They know destructive when they see it.

My favorite Disney villains have always been the ones who don't have their own powers, but manipulate others - Gaston, Frollo and now Gothel.

And Murphy's performance helped. She knocked it out of the park.

[TGM]

Wow. This, more than anything, has convinced me to give it a shot.

As if it was ever needed, here is proof that their advertising campaign completely buried what could have otherwise been a tremendously successful movie.

Hell, I didn't want to see it at first due to that very trailer. Thank god my crazy group of friends convinced me otherwise, because it's one of the very best I've seen all year.

I was shocked when I went home and rewatched the trailer. Like the poster above said, half those scenes aren't even in the movie. It's as if they wanted the movie to fail miserably...

[Sycophant]

I am for the first time in a year or more actually interested in seeing this thing. May try to get to it this week.

[Mara]

Wow, someone really loved this movie! :D

It wasn't perfect, but I can't pretend I wasn't enjoying myself the entire time.

[Spinal]

The stages of me watching this movie ...

1. Yeah, this is pretty good, but let's not go crazy.

2. Hey, I'm really getting into this.

3. Wow, this is a lot better than it should be.

4. OMG, LANTERNS!!!!!


Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.

[Barty]

The stages of me watching this movie ...

1. Yeah, this is pretty good, but let's not go crazy.

2. Hey, I'm really getting into this.

3. Wow, this is a lot better than it should be.

4. OMG, LANTERNS!!!!!


Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.

:pritch:

[Sycophant]

Reactions similar to Spinal's. This was smart and delightful. I'm genuinely surprised and happy to report that this is one of the best movies I saw in the theaters this year.

One minor technical note: does 3D water still have to look like that?

[Watashi]

The stages of me watching this movie ...

1. Yeah, this is pretty good, but let's not go crazy.

2. Hey, I'm really getting into this.

3. Wow, this is a lot better than it should be.

4. OMG, LANTERNS!!!!!


Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.
Indeed!

You'll be happy to note that I actually prefer this movie to Toy Story 3.

I never saw that coming.

[Fezzik]

The stages of me watching this movie ...

1. Yeah, this is pretty good, but let's not go crazy.

2. Hey, I'm really getting into this.

3. Wow, this is a lot better than it should be.

4. OMG, LANTERNS!!!!!


Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.

:lol::pritch:

So glad you liked it as much as I did, guys :)

[Fezzik]

Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.

This CANNOT be overstated. She was freaking amazing.

[Mara]

Donna Murphy, man. Donna freaking Murphy.

She was really amazing. A note:

Her death was really a cop-out, though. You don't just stop loving someone because you find out she is a liar, and you don't disregard her plummeting death. It was entirely too tidy, like the writers didn't know what to do with her once her villainy was revealed.

For the record, I also enjoyed this more than Toy Story 3. TS3 was good, but not as strong as the first two entries in the series.

[Spinal]

She was really amazing. A note:

Her death was really a cop-out, though. You don't just stop loving someone because you find out she is a liar, and you don't disregard her plummeting death. It was entirely too tidy, like the writers didn't know what to do with her once her villainy was revealed.



A little more time here might have been welcome. But I did appreciate the quick shot of Rapunzel reaching out to her. They didn't have to do that, but they did.

[Watashi]

I loved it before Spinal did. :sad:

[Barty]

I love it before Watashi did.

And Rapunzel is hot - yay or nay Spinal?

[Ivan Drago]

For the record, I also enjoyed this more than Toy Story 3.

I might as well but TS3 needs a rewatch. The more I think about this film, though, the more I like it.

[Mara]

Oh, NOW IT'S A RACE. I see how this goes.

Well, I LOVED IT, like, FIFTH.

[Spinal]

And Rapunzel is hot - yay or nay Spinal?

Before she turned 18 ... oh, I don't know, I didn't really notice.

After she turned 18 ... totally hot.

[Henry Gale]

Alright, I'm definitely going to try and see this on a cheap ticket Tuesday in the one theatre that's still showing this near me (in 3D, at least). This recent surge of glowing positivity towards it definitely has me excited for it, possibly for the first time since the earlier of concept art was released way back.

Even just hearing that some of the sillier bits in that first trailer aren't in the actual movie (in addition to them generally mis-marketing it, which I had sort of assumed), was enough to have me somewhat interested.

[TGM]

I might as well but TS3 needs a rewatch. The more I think about this film, though, the more I like it.

Yeah, it took me a rewatch as well before I ultimately decided that Tangled was the better movie.

[Mara]

Hi!

People should see this.

[Raiders]

Hi!

People should see this.

It's happening Saturday.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, I think I'm going to take my kids on Sunday.

[Spinal]

Hope we haven't hyped it up too much for you.

[Raiders]

I'm going to go positive on this one, though I find that for the most part I was not as thrilled by it as I would have liked. I've seen a lot of comparisons to the "Big Four" that rejuvenated the Disney studio back from 1989 - 1994, and I would say that is accurate though also not necessarily a compliment. Menken's songs were nowhere near the tunefulness of his best work, though the awesomeness and stupendous range of Donna Murphy should not be discounted (omg that reprise of "Mother Knows Best" in the forest). A lot of the schematic Disney stuff bored me, and in particular I was disappointed in the way they ultimately treated and resolved Murphy's mother character. There seemed to be real tenderness in the "love you more, love you most" exchange and I thought there was a lot of room for a more complex villain, perhaps shading into the area of her pathetic and sycophantic love of Rapunzel's hair, but she ultimately resolved in the same way every Disney villain does.

I also HATED the "golden tear" cop-out at the end. Yes, I knew he would not be able to be killed off, but it's the kind of deus ex machina that just rubs me the wrong way.

Still, there are two sequences as beautiful, elegant and with as much real emotion and pathos as any Disney film as ever managed. The lantern scene is obvious (gold star for you, Mr. Keane). The textures in that scene are simply amazing (and severely overshadow the sometimes weak and plasticky animation). The other is my favorite scene in the film: the first moments after Rapunzel has escaped and she is overwhelmed with the freedom and the "camera" swoops around her, highlighting her unchained spirit; then the scene suddenly shifts to her being torn, alternating between the love of freedom and wracked with guilt over betraying her mother. The pathos and neurosis in this scene rang very, very true.

So yeah, it's good for the most part. I didn't find any of the characters as charming or amusing as I was hoping for with the likely exception of Rapunzel herself--she is easily the most neurotic and colorful Disney princess--and the comedy fell flat for me a good portion of the film. But it is also the most well-produced and accomplished film Disney has produced since Beauty and the Beast and even eclipses that film in truer emotion and great set-pieces (I didn't mention the courtyard dancing sequence--very kinetic). Enjoyable.

[Ezee E]

Holy crap, this had a budget of $260 mill?

[Ivan Drago]

Holy crap, this had a budget of $260 mill?

Having to animate a ridiculous amount of hair will do that to an animated film.

[Sycophant]

Being in development for 7 years doesn't hurt either.

I must agree with Raiders (and Mara) that a bit more could've been done with the mother character's fate and Rapunzel's handling of it. But I also appreciated the shot Spinal noted.

[Ezee E]

Being in development for 7 years doesn't hurt either.

I must agree with Raiders (and Mara) that a bit more could've been done with the mother character's fate and Rapunzel's handling of it. But I also appreciated the shot Spinal noted.
Yeah, looks like it started production, and got scrapped completely twice. Different animation styles and everything. Started out with a far darker tone, then went completely girly, and then to what it is now. Weird.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This was pretty great. Both of my kids seemed to really enjoy it as well. I agree with the criticisms about the handling of the mother, and I'd go further and say that I felt, outside of Rapunzel herself, a lot of the outside material wasn't developed and/or handled as well as it should have been, certainly not as well as the "big four" did, but I'd say that's really all that separates this from the best that Disney has to offer. The film was funny, emotionally resonant, and the animation was gorgeous.

[Mara]

I'm glad you (and your boys) liked it. This one settled well for me: just a pleasure.

[Spinal]

A shame it didn't get a nomination for Best Animated Film.

[Kurosawa Fan]

A shame it didn't get a nomination for Best Animated Film.

Totally agree. In fact, I checked after watching it, because I was hoping screeners were distributed so that my wife could watch it (she missed out on the theater because she was home sick), and was shocked to find out that it wasn't. It definitely should have taken TS3's place, though we knew that wasn't happening. I'm a big fan of Dragon, so I can't say I'd have Tangled take it's place, and I saw how much you liked The Illusionist, so I know you wouldn't want that to get the boot. Stupid Pixar.

[Spinal]

Stupid Pixar.

Yeah, my opinion has been expressed, so I don't want to belabor it. But there were three really excellent animated films this year.

[Watashi]

Yeah, my opinion has been expressed, so I don't want to belabor it. But there were three really excellent animated films this year.
Yeah, and Toy Story 3 was one of them.

The ONLY good thing about HTTYD was the score.

God, I hate the acclaim that film gets.

[Bosco B Thug]

HTTYD is done in by getting off to a terrible start, and Tangled really drops the ball in the end.

Belaboring my position now, but all three American animated films were terribly flawed, getting on Toy Story 3's case seems really disproportionate.

[soitgoes...]

Second best animated film of the year after The Illusionist. Much better than I expected. Eugene is one of Disney's better creations.

[lovejuice]

And I thought I was the only one disappointed by the fate of the mother. :P

But really, they tried so hard to keep her "realistic" -- no magic, no superpower, just manipulation -- but her character just comes out one-dimensional.

I give it a borderline yay. It's fun, but the third act is extremely messy. One plot-hole comes after the other, so many so that I don't really care about the magic tear at all. Just get it over with!

[EyesWideOpen]

Yeah, and Toy Story 3 was one of them.

The ONLY good thing about HTTYD was the score.

God, I hate the acclaim that film gets.

I hate the acclaim that Kung Fu Panda gets.

[Watashi]

I hate the acclaim that Kung Fu Panda gets.
It doesn't get anywhere near the acclaim that HTTYD gets.

[transmogrifier]

This was...okay, I guess. Horse was fun, and the chase through the quarry was great, but otherwise...eh. Passable, but not the wonderful surprise I was lead to expect.

[Sycophant]

This was...okay, I guess. Horse was fun, and the chase through the quarry was great, but otherwise...eh. Passable, but not the wonderful surprise I was lead to expect.

Welcome back, by the way!

[transmogrifier]

Cheers. I missed the constant inferences that I am subintelligent for liking or disliking various movies. At work, we just talk about education. BORING.

[Raiders]

At work, we just talk about education.

Clearly the fodder of sub-intellectuals.

[Ivan Drago]

A MOVIE (1958) ***½

The Bruce Conner film?

[transmogrifier]

Clearly the fodder of sub-intellectuals.

Some days, I would agree with you. But ever since we got darts going during the lunchbreak, I don't got time to think about that namby-pamby stuff.

[Henry Gale]

I thought this was soooo good. It all looks beautiful, with every character — through both the performances and the animation — creating an incredible liveliness and fluidity to everything beyond what things like motion capture and rotoscoping seem to ever be able to, with the sort of music and great world-building that took me back to the great Disney movies from my childhood, but particularly those that Tangled seems to borrow the most from like Beauty & The Beast (which was always my favourite from the age I could communicate so), Aladdin and The Little Mermaid.

I also finally saw The Illusionist right before this, and I may have liked that one even more, but either way I think that the two of them may have been the two best animated films from 2010. And I do really like Toy Story 3 and How To Train Your Dragon, and even found more enjoyment in Despicable Me and Megamind than I expected to, but Tangled and The Illusionist just had me in complete awe in a way that none of those other films did, the sort of amazement where I don't even consider that I'm watching animation and where I just get sucked into these sort of films like I did when I was a kid, which is maybe as much as I can ask for with any type of movie.

[[ETM]]

So beautiful. So, so beautiful. Wonderful characters, even the chameleon, and it's worth seeing for the city sequence, followed by the release of the lanterns, alone.

[Henry Gale]

Oh yeah, the entire lanterns sequence, in its own self-contained way, is everything that's great about the movie. Even from the very beginning where we see the King and Queen now, looking completely defeated and with all hope lost, having accepted that the reason for the lanterns has almost shifted from their original purpose now into a memorial of sorts. And then we see them light up.

I forget if we had a 2010 thread for Best Scenes like we have in past years, but there's no reason it wouldn't have made my list. I definitely wish I had seen it in 3D, as it's one of the few times I could see the form improving something that's already great beyond its two dimensions.

[[ETM]]

Agreed in full. I'm a cynical bastard, and I know it's by-the-book Disney stuff, but I choked up.

[Mara]

Watched this again last night, with my sister. I've solidified my opinion that it is a fun film with likeable leads and enjoyable music. I think, though, that the ending is comparatively weak.

My sister liked it, but thought there was a sort of anti-adoption sentiment in the film-- the idea that biology is stronger than proximity in terms of family. Gothel says that she loves Rapunzel, but seems incapable of having any real feelings towards her. Meanwhile, being reunited with her parents Rapunzel seems to have built-in love and trust for people who are, essentially, strangers.

I pointed out that Gothel wasn't an adoptive mother, she was a kidnapper.

My sister said that if she was an adoptive mother watching the film, she would have felt uncomfortable.

[Raiders]

Yeah, you're right in this instance. Gothel did not in any way "adopt" Rapunzel. She blatantly kidnapped her, solely out of love for her hair and lied to her that she was her real mother. The weakness for me is that the film almost hints at real mother-daughter tenderness between the two and then in the end simply and cruelly villifies Gothel without any thought whatsoever.

[Mara]

I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe that Gothel has real affection for Rapunzel (she's pretty cutting, even when she's playing nice) but Rapunzel certainly loves Gothel. The comparatively easy way that relationship is tossed aside doesn't sit well.

I still like the film.

Disney has almost always jumped at any chance for a simplistic ending.

[Raiders]

I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe that Gothel has real affection for Rapunzel (she's pretty cutting, even when she's playing nice)

Nonetheless, she has taken care of her (though imprisoned more or less) and as I said earlier in the thread, the "love you more, love you most" exchange is delivered relatively heartfelt. Heck, she also traipses for three days for special paint. I think the character still should have been reduced to loving Rapunzel's hair and not her, but there is so much potential nuance to the way they could have resolved her character--I imagine a great evil-character-monologue where she defends herself, her care and consideration for Rapunzel and showcases her reduction to a sycophant to Rapunzel's hair--but instead, in typical Disney fashion, it becomes terribly black and white and cruelly simplistic.

[Mara]

Now I'm trying to figure out if any Disney animated film has had a really strong ending.

I think The Jungle Book has an interesting ending. Mulan appeals to the sappy part of me.

And that may be it.

[Mara]

Have you seen Into the Woods? I'm a huge fan. The witch is a major character in that play, and Rapunzel is fairly minor. Still, the relationship between them is played out very subtly and with nuance, even though the witch is by no means a "good" character.

[Mara]

Actually, it's playing in Columbia right now, by Red Branch Theater Company. I've been thinking about going if it's a good production.

[Raiders]

Now I'm trying to figure out if any Disney animated film has had a really strong ending.

I think The Jungle Book has an interesting ending. Mulan appeals to the sappy part of me.

And that may be it.

Well, they are always going to end on just about the happiest note. Within that realm, there is some good stuff in Maleficent's villany in Sleeping Beauty. She's got fairly simplistic motives--actually, I would say her motives are so basic as to be nonexistent--but there is a more charismatic and interesting cruelty to her; she's meaner and wittier and even sarcastically cruel. I also think that the very complete lack of any sympathy or any revelation or any impetus is pretty intriguing; she is simply and utterly evil. Disney essentially created the ultimate black-and-white fairy tale, pitting complete good against ultimate evil (the film also feels the most fairytale-like of any Disney film). Under those motives, they succeeded pretty brilliantly and owned up to their own lack of ability to be anything other than "pretty princess" and/or "handsome prince" defeats evil.

[megladon8]

I loved the ending to Beauty and the Beast.

There's nothing wrong with a happy ending if it's deserved and fits the story.

[Mara]

I loved the ending to Beauty and the Beast.

I have... problems with Beauty and the Beast. I think the film is great, but a carryover from the source material that freaks me out is this:

I don't think he should turn from a beast to a handsome man at the end. She fell in love with him as a beast, why does he need to change? What, exactly, is the message here? If you love someone ugly, they will become beautiful? If you love someone cruel, they will become kind?


There's nothing wrong with a happy ending if it's deserved and fits the story.

Agreed, however, I feel that Disney films reach for the happy ending. They almost always feel artificial and contrived to a point.

[megladon8]

Kind of with regards to what Mara said about Beauty and the Beast...

You know how you hear of people in relationships "letting themselves go"? You get married, so you stop caring about how you look because you aren't trying to impress anyone anymore. You gain some weight, stop trying to hide hair loss, etc.

I think it should be the other way around.

A person should be in a relationship with you because of how you are not how you look. You should be impressed by an intriguing personality and sense of humor, intelligence and wit, not abs and perfectly coiffed hair.

People should not care about how they look (to an extent) when they're dating, then in a relationship, should better themselves and make themselves look sexy and desirable for the person they're with.

[Qrazy]

Kind of with regards to what Mara said about Beauty and the Beast...

You know how you hear of people in relationships "letting themselves go"? You get married, so you stop caring about how you look because you aren't trying to impress anyone anymore. You gain some weight, stop trying to hide hair loss, etc.

I think it should be the other way around.

A person should be in a relationship with you because of how you are not how you look. You should be impressed by an intriguing personality and sense of humor, intelligence and wit, not abs and perfectly coiffed hair.

People should not care about how they look (to an extent) when they're dating, then in a relationship, should better themselves and make themselves look sexy and desirable for the person they're with.

Okay? But letting oneself go isn't exactly something that people consciously choose to do, it's just something that frequently happens.

And in terms of getting with someone initially... One catches a fish with alluring bait and then keeps the fish because it's already on the hook, then in the boat and then smacked over the head with a paddle. I mean for sure people should try to better themselves whether they're in a relationship or not, but it's like, hardwork bettering oneself.

[megladon8]

Not if you weighed 500 pounds but were 8'7"


...and tall, too!

BA-DUM-TISH!

[Qrazy]

ANH is more film while GFP2 is more cinema.

[megladon8]

ANH is more film while GFP2 is more cinema.


You're more flick.

[lovejuice]

Have you seen Into the Woods? I'm a huge fan. The witch is a major character in that play, and Rapunzel is fairly minor. Still, the relationship between them is played out very subtly and with nuance, even though the witch is by no means a "good" character.

Last Midnight is among my favorite numbers in a musical ever. what a perfect way to "sum up" fairy tales.

[TGM]

Damn, it's amazing how much better this movie gets with each new viewing. :D

[Dead & Messed Up]

Why didn't you guys tell me how great this movie is?

Because it's great. The horse was my favorite.

[Mara]

Why didn't you guys tell me how great this movie is?

Because it's great. The horse was my favorite.

WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN?

[Dukefrukem]

Remember when everyone thought it looked terrible based on the first teaser?

I enjoyed this too.

[Dead & Messed Up]

WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN?

http://blacksnob.com/storage/we%20didn't%20listen.jpg

[Mara]

Glad you guys liked it. I would have never seen it if MC hadn't given it good press, and I really ended up enjoying it.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Lot of things to love about the movie.

[Irish]

This is on InstantWatch, btw.

[Fezzik]

Lot of things to love about the movie.

I'm not ashamed to say its my favorite movie that came out last year,.

[[ETM]]

Just watched it again with my niece again. We both loved it, again.

[number8]

I still agree with Mara, though, that the ending is problematic to me. But it's a common trope. Family reunions are always treated like this in movies, especially kids movies, when it shouldn't make sense and often sends an uncomfortable message. They are complete strangers. There should be some difficulty there.

[Irish]

I thought this was bad, but bad in an interesting way.

The biggest stumbling block is that the premise is far too dark. They can add all the comedy and songs they want, Disney it up, but they can't get around the fact that the story centers on a young woman who's had her life stolen and her family destroyed.

I think there's something deeply sad at the core of this movie, and I think that's why the ending felt so weird for a lot of people, myself included. It doesn't help that the "mother" character is damned near schizophrenic; narcissistic, cruel and manipulative in one scene and then doting and affectionate the next. Disney has essentially made a movie about child abuse. As a cartoon. In the realm of colossally bad ideas, this one stands alone.

The runtime and structure are off too. It's a bit too easy for this princess to reach her immediate goals and it takes far too long for her to do it (nearly 90 minutes of care-free adventure before the third act).

My other beef is that this is another movie which sends weird gender messages to young girls. I won't go into details, because I doubt anyone here wants to read it, but there's several gender based subtexts in this movie that are disturbing, insulting, or both.

The horse and the "frog" almost made it worth it. The comedy hit home for me, and was the only redeeming feature.

I wish I hadn't seen this. Not because it's poorly produced or silly or trivial or whatever. But because it would ugly and depressing subject matter in a movie aimed at adults. The fact that it's aimed at kids makes it all the worse.

[number8]

I don't really see disturbing subject matters and children's cartoons as mutually exclusive, but all right.

[Irish]

I don't really see disturbing subject matters and children's cartoons as mutually exclusive, but all right.

They're not, and I didn't say they were. But tone is tricky to balance. This one doesn't have a way to come back from its premise, because light hearted songs about Mommie Dearest messing with the heroine's head just don't play right.

[Fezzik]

They're not, and I didn't say they were. But tone is tricky to balance. This one doesn't have a way to come back from its premise, because light hearted songs about Mommie Dearest messing with the heroine's head just don't play right.

I actually think the fact that "Mother Knows Best" being arranged as light-hearted made it ultimately more disturbing and IMO, at least, more effective.

[megladon8]

This was all right. The movie itself is quite good, strikingly beautiful at times.

But god, the songs are just awful.

I so wish and hope that Disney will one day be able to recapture the utter magic they had from the late 80s to the mid 90s. It really was magic they created for a while there, and it's oh-so-depressing to rewatch something like Beauty and the Beast or The Lion King, and then hear that this film Tangled is supposedly "recapturing the Disney magic", but there's no comparison at all.

[Mara]

Oh, hey, remember several pages back when we discussed if this film was anti-adoption? I'm not going to look it up, but it happened.

Last month I visited friends and ended up at a dinner with three sets of adoptive parents, and this film came up. They HATE HATE HATE HATE HATED it. They felt the "only your biological parents will ever truly love you message" was really disturbing.

[megladon8]

Oh, hey, remember several pages back when we discussed if this film was anti-adoption? I'm not going to look it up, but it happened.

Last month I visited friends and ended up at a dinner with three sets of adoptive parents, and this film came up. They HATE HATE HATE HATE HATED it. They felt the "only your biological parents will ever truly love you message" was really disturbing.


I don't think that message was ever given by the film. The evil stepmother said that, because she was...you know...evil.

I'm pretty sure the film wasn't on her side.

EDIT: As for the overly happy ending where she's reunited with her parents and feels instant love for them, I thought that was just typical Disney-fying, not some back-handed message about adoption being bad.

Besides, as you pointed out in the previous page, she wasn't adopted in the first place.

[Watashi]

I like Tangled's songs a lot.

[number8]

I like Tangled's songs a lot.

Same here. "Mother Knows Best" is superb.

[Mara]

I don't think that message was ever given by the film. The evil stepmother said that, because she was...you know...evil.

I think so too. But for people that are sensitive on the topic, I imagine it would be harder. I didn't mentioned the super-anti-adoption messages on the tv show Once Upon a Time, which is also about fairy tales... but I wonder what they think about that.

Oh, and I pretty much liked the songs.

[Watashi]

I'd take Tangled's song over The Lion King's songs any day.

[number8]

I think so too. But for people that are sensitive on the topic, I imagine it would be harder. I didn't mentioned the super-anti-adoption messages on the tv show Once Upon a Time, which is also about fairy tales... but I wonder what they think about that.

Oh, by the way, I'm still watching the show and I'm getting into the groove of it (Jane Espenson's episodes are particularly very good). But yeah, the anti-adoption thing still has not let up.

[megladon8]

I'd take Tangled's song over The Lion King's songs any day.


Wait, what?

I thought The Lion King was your all-time favorite movie?

[Mara]

I'd take Tangled's song over The Lion King's songs any day.

I was never wild about Elton John as a composer for Disney. (Though better than Phil Collins: blech.) Most of the songs in The Lion King are serviceable but forgettable.

But not Hakuna Matata. Cannot even be suggested. As great a Disney character piece as has ever been done.

[number8]

Other than Hakuna Matata and I Just Can't Wait to be King, I don't really find The Lion King songs to be very good. Tangled's is definitely better overall.

[Watashi]

Wait, what?

I thought The Lion King was your all-time favorite movie?
No. That's Alex Weitzman. When I revisited the film when it came back to theaters, I wasn't a huge fan of the songs (Be Prepared is the best song). Jeremy Irons as Scar is amazing, but any scene with Timon and Pumbaa is cringe-worthy. Hakuna Matata is the work of Satan's symphony.

[Mara]

No. That's Alex Weitzman. When I revisited the film when it came back to theaters, I wasn't a huge fan of the songs (Be Prepared is the best song). Jeremy Irons as Scar is amazing, but any scene with Timon and Pumbaa is cringe-worthy. Hakuna Matata is the work of Satan's symphony.

Naaaaw.

Agreed that Jeremy Irons is awesome, though. I have an actual, biological reaction to his speaking voice. He was narrating an audio book I was listening to and I suddenly don't think I'm going to compete this thought for you.

[Watashi]

The best Disney songs belong to The Little Mermaid, Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Mulan.

I also like Robin Hood's songs a lot.

[megladon8]

I feel like I'm in Upside Down World.

The Lion King's songs are freaking timeless.

Tangled's songs felt like throwaway pop tunes. That first song with Rapunzel doing all the crap in her house was just bad.

Generic, poorly produced guitar riff? Check.
Melody I couldn't remember 5 minutes after the song finished? Check.


I see no comparison at all between the songs in this film, and the songs in, say, Beauty and the Beast or even Aladdin. That stuff I could (and do) listen to on its own. The songs in Tangled I wanted to skip while watching the movie.

[number8]

The best Disney songs belong to The Little Mermaid, Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Mulan.

I also like Robin Hood's songs a lot.

I agree with all four. Definitely my favorite soundtracks. Mulan's "Make a Man Out of You" might be my favorite Disney song ever, actually. Especially the version sung by Jackie Chan.

[Mara]

The best Disney songs belong to The Little Mermaid, Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Mulan.

I also like Robin Hood's songs a lot.

I'd say Beauty and the Beast, The Jungle Book (The Bare Necessities! I Wanna Be Like You! That's What Friends are For!) and maybe Sleeping Beauty.

Your picks are all on my good list, though.

[number8]

Of course, Goofy Movie has them all beat. That goes without saying.

[Watashi]

Of course, Goofy Movie has them all beat. That goes without saying.
Yep.

And The Brave Little Toaster.

[Mara]

I was putting my little niece to bed one night and for a bedtime song she asked for "I'll Make a Man Out of You."

It turns out I know all the words.

[megladon8]

Maybe I'm just outta whack with what's consider to be "great Disney stuff".

The Emperor's New Groove is probably in my top 5 favorite Disney animated films.

[number8]

It's simple, really. "Circle of Life" and "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" make me want to slit my wrists. And Aladdin songs are booooooorrrrriiiing. No joy in them whatsoever.

[Watashi]

We're only talking about songs, not actual films.

[megladon8]

It's simple, really. "Circle of Life" and "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" make me want to slit my wrists. And Aladdin songs are booooooorrrrriiiing. No joy in them whatsoever.


I couldn't disagree any more. "Circle of Life" is sublime. The version sung by the female vocalist (don't know her name, I mean the one that isn't Elton John) gives me freaking chills.

[Watashi]

It's simple, really. "Circle of Life" and "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" make me want to slit my wrists. And Aladdin songs are booooooorrrrriiiing. No joy in them whatsoever.
I like One Jump Ahead. Mainly because it doesn't feature Robin Williams.

[number8]

Woah, I've never seen this before. Cover of "Part of Your World" by a pre-Glee Darren Criss. AGH, WHAT'S WITH HIS HAIR.

C77jdPBjzM4

[Melville]

It's interesting that in the original versions of evil-female-parent fairy tales, the evil female parent was the biological mother. The Grimm brothers decided that was too unpleasant and made them stepmothers. Because it's to be expected that children from broken homes will be led into the woods to be eaten by witches.

Disney songs are generically annoying. Except those in Robin Hood. At least that's how I remember them from when I was eight.

[number8]

It's interesting that in the original versions of evil-female-parent fairy tales, the evil female parent was the biological mother. The Grimm brothers decided that was too unpleasant and made them stepmothers. Because it's to be expected that children from broken homes will be led into the woods to be eaten by witches.

That's true, but it's also worth mentioning that there's a difference between a stepmother and an adopted mother. One can see the stepmother archetype as being evil because in the medieval settings of the fairy tales, one generally become a king or nobleman's bride primarily because you want to be with the man, not his previous children, so it's easy to extrapolate the resentment for another woman's children. The evil adopted mother archetype like the one portrayed in Once Upon A Time doesn't really have that basis, and seems to come just from the belief that biological parents are best and anything else can't compare.

[Watashi]

That's true, but it's also worth mentioning that there's a difference between a stepmother and an adopted mother. One can see the stepmother archetype as being evil because in the medieval settings of the fairy tales, one generally become a king or nobleman's bride primarily because you want to be with the man, not his previous children, so it's easy to extrapolate the resentment for another woman's children. The evil adopted mother archetype like the one portrayed in Once Upon A Time doesn't really have that basis, and seems to come just from the belief that biological parents are best and anything else can't compare.
Which is why I like the message of the Kung Fu Panda movies a lot, because it says that blood doesn't define family.

[number8]

Fucking adorable. I was already in love with him to begin with, this video is not helping.

w8_jSqtv2ZI

[Melville]

That's true, but it's also worth mentioning that there's a difference between a stepmother and an adopted mother. One can see the stepmother archetype as being evil because in the medieval settings of the fairy tales, one generally become a king or nobleman's bride primarily because you want to be with the man, not his previous children, so it's easy to extrapolate the resentment for another woman's children. The evil adopted mother archetype like the one portrayed in Once Upon A Time doesn't really have that basis, and seems to come just from the belief that biological parents are best and anything else can't compare.
The fathers were often poor men, not kings or noblemen. In the story I was specifically referring to, Hansel and Gretel, the father was a poor woodcutter. You're right that the stepmother is a more obviously explicable villain than the adoptive mother, but there's the same underlying idea at play. The Grimm brothers changed the biological mothers to stepmothers in order to avoid depictions of biological mothers who mistreated or didn't care about their children; the presupposition is that the biological mother is the 'proper' mother and making her throw her children to the witches is too disturbing or makes the story too amoral.

I think that by upholding some kind of sanctity of motherhood, the Grimms lessened the stories. The more removed from conventional order a fairy tale is, the better.

[Fezzik]

It's simple, really. "Circle of Life" and "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" make me want to slit my wrists. And Aladdin songs are booooooorrrrriiiing. No joy in them whatsoever.

The best songs from Aladdin weren't even in the finished film.

[Sycophant]

The best songs from Aladdin weren't even in the finished film.

You refer to "Proud of Your Boy"? Anything else?

I like the music in the songs in Mulan, but with the exception of "Reflection," the lyrics feel just so damned clunky and literal. "Make a Man Out of You" especially seems to suffer from this.

[Fezzik]

You refer to "Proud of Your Boy"? Anything else?

I like the music in the songs in Mulan, but with the exception of "Reflection," the lyrics feel just so damned clunky and literal. "Make a Man Out of You" especially seems to suffer from this.

"Proud of your Boy" for sure, but I'm also a fan of "High Adventure" and to a lesser degree, "Why Me?"

[StanleyK]

This was pretty bad. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading all the praise here. To me this was on the level of a below-average Dreamworks movie.

[Dukefrukem]

This was pretty bad. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading all the praise here. To me this was on the level of a below-average Dreamworks movie.

It hasn't aged well and ended up being one of my least favorite Disney movies after rewatches.

It's no Moana or Frozen (which I personally dislike but at least I understand the appeal).

[Peng]

Eh, I would argue that this is the rare modern Disney animated film that feels like a true throwback to their 90s ones, mostly in a charming way with some very good updates, and not afflicted with some obvious and self-conscious drama writing in many of their recent ones (that’s sometimes pandering to the point of vaguely insulting).