PDA

View Full Version : Luck



ThePlashyBubbler
07-15-2010, 03:31 AM
This is probably a bit early, but HBO has ordered Luck to series after reportedly being blown away by the pilot. For those of you who don't know, the show is created/written by David Milch of Deadwood fame. As if that weren't enticement enough, Michael Mann directs the pilot, and it stars Dustin Hoffman, Nick Nolte, Dennis Farina, John Ortiz, Kevin Dunn, Richard Kind, Jason Gedrick, Ritchie Coster, Ian Hart, Tom Payne, Kerry Condon and Gary Stevens with Jill Hennessey to guest star in the pilot.

The show is described as "a provocative look at horse racing – the owners, gamblers, jockeys and diverse gaming industry players." Production begins this fall for a supposed January start date. Color me enthused.

ThePlashyBubbler
07-10-2011, 06:10 AM
First Promo. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yOQJ288GQ&feature=player_embedded)

Irish
07-10-2011, 06:44 AM
First Promo. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yOQJ288GQ&feature=player_embedded)

Private?

Milky Joe
07-10-2011, 06:56 AM
Gah. I need to see this!

ThePlashyBubbler
07-10-2011, 11:51 PM
Huh. Try this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD3ec9ADHbQ)

Marley
07-11-2011, 09:35 PM
Huh. Try this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD3ec9ADHbQ)

Yep, this link works. I'd certainly be interested in watching this show.

number8
07-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Damn, that looks awesome, but I fear that the subject matter is to esoteric that people will tune out and it gets cancelled, like John From Cincinnati. Sigh.

Raiders
12-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Don't forget: Sneak preview of the Michael Mann-directed pilot this Sunday night immediately following the finale of Boardwalk Empire.

ledfloyd
12-07-2011, 08:21 PM
i'm really looking forward to this. as there isn't a single drama on the air right now that is doing it for me.

Thirdmango
12-18-2011, 08:40 AM
Damn, that looks awesome, but I fear that the subject matter is to esoteric that people will tune out and it gets cancelled, like John From Cincinnati. Sigh.

I watched the pilot just now. I thought it was fairly good and I loved how many actors and actresses it has in it that I want to see. But I simply don't know anything about horses or horse racing and so a lot of the language they used simply went over my head.

ledfloyd
12-18-2011, 03:38 PM
I watched the pilot just now. I thought it was fairly good and I loved how many actors and actresses it has in it that I want to see. But I simply don't know anything about horses or horse racing and so a lot of the language they used simply went over my head.
same here, but i felt the same way when i started watching the wire, and game of thrones, and after about 4 episodes i had found my footing, so i'm hoping that will be the case here.

Thirdmango
12-18-2011, 04:16 PM
same here, but i felt the same way when i started watching the wire, and game of thrones, and after about 4 episodes i had found my footing, so i'm hoping that will be the case here.

Agreed.

Question for anyone who has watched the episode and can possibly help explain it:

Basically the last ten minutes completely went over my head. Did each of the four guys individually bet for one of the horses? Why was the sixth race so much more expensive of pay outs then the other ones? Why wouldn't the guys immediately turn in their ticket for the money? I may just have to watch the episode again but the story line of those four guys just baffled me.

Also I'm excited to see what Patrick Adams does in the show. He was the best part of Suits and I hope his career can do more then just a USA show.

ledfloyd
12-18-2011, 09:18 PM
i think they had to pick all six races correctly and when they got to the sixth race the payoff had built up that much? i'm not entirely sure, and i'm definitely not sure why they didn't want to claim the money right away.

sevenarts
12-18-2011, 10:33 PM
On the end of Luck:
They weren't betting individually, they had just chipped in on a single ticket using the young guy's picks. The payoff was so big because 1) they had picked the winner on each of the six races; and 2) they had picked the longshot as the winner on that one particular race with the Spanish trainer's horse running. The payoff wasn't for just one race, it was the cumulative payoff because they'd won each race. If they'd missed a pick on just one of the six races, they would've gotten nothing.

On the last race, they had bet on every horse just to be safe, but they were still rooting for one of the longshots to win because then their payoff would be bigger.

They ostensibly didn't turn in the ticket right away because they wanted to figure out if there was a way to handle it that would minimize their tax hit. But really that just felt like a plot device and wasn't handled very well, I thought.

The show was not bad, really threw you into this world. I liked everything with Dustin Hoffman and Dennis Farina a lot, and also the Pick Six guys. I'll definitely be sticking with it for now, even though I don't really like horse racing at all.

Henry Gale
12-19-2011, 12:26 AM
I saw this thread bumped and almost forgot that I actually watched it.

Despite the calibre of the people involved in it, I thought it was surprisingly unremarkable and almost felt like I was jumping into an episode other than the pilot. Whether it was the way it split up the screentime between the major characters, the look of the show (which included a sometimes nice, sometimes ugly mix of TV-digital and Michael Mann-digital cinematrography) and some of the music choices, it all didn't just didn't feel as exciting or tightly assembled as I feel it should have. For instance, I love "Me and the Devil" by Gil Scott-Heron, but the way it was used in that one scene just felt distracting and out of place. Come to think of it, it would probably make an amazing theme song for a show one day, since they didn't go with it here.

But most of all I think there just has to be something genuinely great and uniquely interesting for a show set firmly in this sort of world with this premise to allow for a big way in for the audience. I just don't think the first episode did that, at least taken on its own, but I'll still watch it when the season starts since there's still enough promising ingredients here.

ledfloyd
01-31-2012, 07:42 PM
it's already been picked up for a second season. i guess the pilot drew 3.3 million viewers.

i gave it another look last night to refresh my memory for next week and found it a lot easier to parse than i did the first time through. mann's cinematography is stunning and i really like the final scene between hoffman and farina. there are little bits of milch's dialogue that aren't particularly showy but really catch my ear. "those screws in victorville, they could buy cadillacs what i paid to let his race tapes through the mailroom."

really looking forward to seeing where this is going. i've read it really starts to congeal in the fourth episode, which seems to be standard for HBO dramas. and if his recap of the pilot (http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2012/01/luck-season-premiere-recap-pilot.html) is any indication matt zoller seitz's recaps will be required weekly reading.

Winston*
01-31-2012, 07:59 PM
I found the pilot considerably more difficult to follow than Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

ThePlashyBubbler
02-02-2012, 12:05 AM
Also rewatched the pilot (and second episode on HBO Go) -- found it significantly easier to follow. I'm hooked.

Winston*
02-10-2012, 08:01 PM
More on the show's wavelength after the second episode, though the combination of racing jargon and the mumbliest cast in the world means I still missed a fair few things.

Milky Joe
02-10-2012, 10:54 PM
I still wonder whether the decision to let Mann direct was a sound one. I'm not at all convinced that Milch wouldn't have done a better job filming his own dialogue, not to mention directing the actors to speak it (although I hope he still had a hand in that part, it would be insane if he didn't). There's this ineffable disconnect through the first two episodes between the words and the direction that I can't quite put my finger on, but I hope it gets better as the storylines develop. Some of the actors (Kevin Dunn, Dennis Farina, Richard Kind) "get" the dialogue better than others it seems.

ledfloyd
02-20-2012, 03:09 PM
that horse race was transcendent.

Raiders
02-20-2012, 04:24 PM
Wow, nobody is watching this. HBO has to be concerned after its immediate renewal. Playing against The Walking Dead certainly doesn't help, but even combining the re-airing(s) it is doing miserably.

Not too surprised. I dig its caliber, but it is really failing to deliver clarity or drama in almost every way. I like its rhythms and unapologetic love of the insular horse-racing/gambling community on display, but I can't see this ever being a successful show if they don't start acting a little bit more like a regular series and throw a bone to normal viewers. In fact, it may be too damn late already.

ThePlashyBubbler
02-21-2012, 12:31 AM
I loved the first three episodes, an many parts of the fourth, but for some reason the highly lauded race in ep. 4 fell a little flat for me. I somehow get more resonance from the dialogue than the overbearing string music-accompanied bombast. Nolte definitely deserves awards recognition though.

Lucky
02-21-2012, 12:34 AM
I have all of these sitting on my DVR. Tried to make it through the pilot three different times. One day..

Adam
02-21-2012, 01:04 AM
Wow, nobody is watching this. HBO has to be concerned after its immediate renewal. Playing against The Walking Dead certainly doesn't help, but even combining the re-airing(s) it is doing miserably.

Not too surprised. I dig its caliber, but it is really failing to deliver clarity or drama in almost every way. I like its rhythms and unapologetic love of the insular horse-racing/gambling community on display, but I can't see this ever being a successful show if they don't start acting a little bit more like a regular series and throw a bone to normal viewers. In fact, it may be too damn late already.

Yeah, I have the same problem with Boardwalk Empire - I don't find the horse racing community a milieu all that fun to get lost in

And not that it's an incredibly pioneering thing to say that the other cable networks have caught up to HBO, but I thought Bill Simmons made a good point on a recent podcast of his where he talked about Luck and some other recent hour-long dramas on the network adhering to the template of a prototypical "HBO Original Series" way too closely. It's just gotten boring

ledfloyd
02-21-2012, 01:58 AM
i didn't care at all for boardwalk empire but i am completely engaged in the world of luck. i think the difference is that these characters are fantastic and feel wholly realized right off the bat. i can't fathom being bored by this show, but then i think treme is the best show on the air right now, and i don't think either of them adhere to an 'hbo original series' template. certainly not as much as game of thrones does. and i quite enjoy that one as well.

Ezee E
02-21-2012, 04:58 AM
Haven't heard a thing about this show. I pretty much forgot that it was even happening. I'll have to check out the pilot.

Milky Joe
02-21-2012, 05:11 AM
Went to the track today (Portland Meadows). It was an edifying experience (I made back the $15 I bet and won four Blazers tickets in a raffle). Can't wait to watch eps 3 and 4 of this.

Ezee E
02-24-2012, 05:29 AM
Watched the pilot. It was tough to understand some of the stuff, but my gambling knowledge really made me enjoy the Pick Six guys.

Is the rest of the show shot this consistently, or is it just a Mann thing? Very well crafted.

Raiders
02-24-2012, 08:13 PM
Watched the pilot. It was tough to understand some of the stuff, but my gambling knowledge really made me enjoy the Pick Six guys.

Is the rest of the show shot this consistently, or is it just a Mann thing? Very well crafted.

Haven't noticed much of a step down quality-wise. The angles are a little different. But, the three subsequent episodes have been directed by Terry George, Allen Coulter and Phillip Noyce respectively, so it has been working with a fairly high pedigree so far.

Ezee E
02-24-2012, 09:17 PM
Yeah, watched Episode 2. Don't understand the tax stuff, but it's still compelling to watch with the wonderful talent attached. Just not something that I'm immediately raving about.

I think the downfall so far is that Milch hasn't made a character that comes close to the level that he had in Deadwood. Heck, the top three Deadwood characters are far more watchable then anything he's done in John From Cincinnati or this. This is a higher criticism then necessary as it's basically trying to compare Luck to one of my favorite shows period.

ledfloyd
02-27-2012, 10:17 PM
more of you need to be watching this.

ThePlashyBubbler
02-28-2012, 01:05 AM
Richard Kind is killing it.

Also, is the woman who sat next to the four degenerates at the track (that Marcus gives a shirt to) the same actress that played Jewel in Deadwood?

Milky Joe
02-29-2012, 07:47 AM
That scene in episode 4 between Gambon and Hoffman was pure acting sex. I'd like to get a transcript of that shit.

Qrazy
03-01-2012, 05:28 AM
This is probably a bit early, but HBO has ordered Luck to series after reportedly being blown away by the pilot. For those of you who don't know, the show is created/written by David Milch of Deadwood fame. As if that weren't enticement enough, Michael Mann directs the pilot, and it stars Dustin Hoffman, Nick Nolte, Dennis Farina, John Ortiz, Kevin Dunn, Richard Kind, Jason Gedrick, Ritchie Coster, Ian Hart, Tom Payne, Kerry Condon and Gary Stevens with Jill Hennessey to guest star in the pilot.


I was just coming to complain about how shitty the sound mixing in the pilot was. It all makes sense now.

Qrazy
03-01-2012, 07:13 PM
I kind of like the show but holy jesus Milch loves his neo-melodrama. Every single thing that happens is the most important thing that has ever happened in the universe. There's no sense of dramatic pacing. You can't ramp up the drama if it's constantly at 11.

Raiders
03-01-2012, 08:03 PM
I kind of like the show but holy jesus Milch loves his neo-melodrama. Every single thing that happens is the most important thing that has ever happened in the universe. There's no sense of dramatic pacing. You can't ramp up the drama if it's constantly at 11.

You lost me. I don't feel that way about the show at all. I think it has a ton of intense characters, and Nolte is certainly viewing this horse as his last real go-round complete with all the deep thoughts and stares, but I don't think the show is pitching high melodrama at all really.

Qrazy
03-01-2012, 08:19 PM
You lost me. I don't feel that way about the show at all. I think it has a ton of intense characters, and Nolte is certainly viewing this horse as his last real go-round complete with all the deep thoughts and stares, but I don't think the show is pitching high melodrama at all really.

It's not Sirkian melodrama, that's why I added neo, but it's definitely overemotional as hell. I mean, are you kidding me?

'I don't get to ride that horse today? My life is ruined!'
'You gained some weight? My life is ruined!'
'You're playing poker again? My life is ruined!'
'That horse hasn't taken a shit yet? My life is ruined!'

Milky Joe
03-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Richard Kind is killing it.

Also, is the woman who sat next to the four degenerates at the track (that Marcus gives a shirt to) the same actress that played Jewel in Deadwood?

Agreed, and yes!

Lucky
03-03-2012, 08:10 PM
It's not Sirkian melodrama, that's why I added neo, but it's definitely overemotional as hell. I mean, are you kidding me?

'I don't get to ride that horse today? My life is ruined!'
'You gained some weight? My life is ruined!'
'You're playing poker again? My life is ruined!'
'That horse hasn't taken a shit yet? My life is ruined!'

I know you're exaggerating for humor's sake, but I think you're undervaluing the characters' motivations behind most of these scenarios...

1) That girl wants a break. She's put all the work toward that horse and isn't being given a shot. Yeah, that's a big deal for that character.

2) This young guy wants to dedicate his life to this and he's on the verge of hitting it big. Again, I don't find it overplayed. His career (and for a young person, that's essentially their life) is riding on this.

3) I'm only 3 eps in and this storyline hasn't been given much weight yet. Can't comment.

4) That horse = $2 million.

Basically, I don't see it as melodramatic. I find the dramatic elements appropriately weighted and in line with the themes of the series.

I'm on board with this show now. Pilot's pretty inaccessible which might be hurting the ratings, but I bet it holds up well on a revisit once you're familiar with how everything plays out. Looking forward to this pivotal Ep 4...should be all caught up by the new ep tomorrow night.

Winston*
03-04-2012, 02:56 AM
The show definitely could use a bit more humour. Deadwood was hilarious.

Qrazy
03-04-2012, 05:12 AM
I know you're exaggerating for humor's sake, but I think you're undervaluing the characters' motivations behind most of these scenarios...

1) That girl wants a break. She's put all the work toward that horse and isn't being given a shot. Yeah, that's a big deal for that character.

2) This young guy wants to dedicate his life to this and he's on the verge of hitting it big. Again, I don't find it overplayed. His career (and for a young person, that's essentially their life) is riding on this.

3) I'm only 3 eps in and this storyline hasn't been given much weight yet. Can't comment.

4) That horse = $2 million.

Basically, I don't see it as melodramatic. I find the dramatic elements appropriately weighted and in line with the themes of the series.

I'm on board with this show now. Pilot's pretty inaccessible which might be hurting the ratings, but I bet it holds up well on a revisit once you're familiar with how everything plays out. Looking forward to this pivotal Ep 4...should be all caught up by the new ep tomorrow night.

The point is not the importance of these things in the respective lives of these characters. The point is that the show is fixated on stringing together a series of such instances and we bounce from scene to scene as if every single event is the most significant event that has ever happened in the history of these characters lives. The camera jams right up close in one character's face and they look anxious or intense while another character moves around in the background. Dramatic music plays, frequently we'll also have a slo-mo shot. The style, the acting and the entire structure of the show is overly dramatic. Nearly every episode features a race where something goes wrong. What's going to happen next? A suicide bomber is going to hit the track? One of the horses heads is going to explode mid-race?

Just as an example think about all the scenes you've seen with the young jockey from your point two.

a) He says something that pisses off the trainer.
b) Then his agent gets on his case about that.
c) Then nearly every scene after that he's stressing about trying to lose weight or about potentially getting taken off a horse or about actually getting taken off a horse, etc.
d) Pretty much the only semi-casual scene we see him in is the love scene and even there the girl is ranting about how fast the horse is and dramatic music is playing.

Milky Joe
03-04-2012, 09:48 AM
Have you considered the possibility that every moment is the most important?

As an aside, I hope Kevin Dunn gets some kind of recognition for how awesome he's been. That scene in the last ep between Marcus and Jerry was incredible.

And by way of criticism, the storyline between Escalante and the horse doctor seems pretty worthless. Could easily have filled that with Nolte time (was he even in ep 5 at all?).

Qrazy
03-04-2012, 05:59 PM
Have you considered the possibility that every moment is the most important?


No, that's ridiculous.

Milky Joe
03-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Oh, Qrazy.

Qrazy
03-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Oh, Qrazy.

Oh, Milky Joe?

Derek
03-05-2012, 03:15 AM
Oh, Milky Joe?

Anything you like about the show? Can't remember the last time you've posted anything positive about all these shows you watch.

Qrazy
03-05-2012, 04:16 AM
Anything you like about the show? Can't remember the last time you've posted anything positive about all these shows you watch.


I kind of like the show but holy jesus Milch loves his neo-melodrama. Every single thing that happens is the most important thing that has ever happened in the universe. There's no sense of dramatic pacing. You can't ramp up the drama if it's constantly at 11.

Learn to read.

Milky Joe
03-05-2012, 07:30 AM
Oh, qrazy

Derek
03-05-2012, 07:37 AM
Learn to read.

I meant actually talking about what you liked instead of focusing on all the things wrong with the shows you like to watch.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Joey reading the Tommy Bahama t-shirt label like scripture = moment of the episode.

Qrazy
03-05-2012, 07:54 AM
I meant actually talking about what you liked instead of focusing on all the things wrong with the shows you like to watch.

How about you focus on the content of your own posts first and I will write what I feel like when I feel like it. ;)

*kisses*

Derek
03-05-2012, 08:03 AM
How about you focus on the content of your own posts first and I will write what I feel like when I feel like it. ;)

*kisses*

K, sourpuss!

Qrazy
03-05-2012, 08:31 AM
K, sourpuss!

I have written positive things in the Sherlock and Community threads though. The Walking Dead is just an awful show. Portlandia was good but it's lost it's edge. Luck is solid but has the problems I mentioned above.

I guess what I like most about Luck is what I like about many HBO shows, it shows me a window into a world I knew little about prior. Definitely feel like I've learned a fair amount about the world of horse racing now. The acting is also good I just find the script pushes the actors into melodramatic situations too often.

Derek
03-05-2012, 09:04 AM
Portlandia was good but it's lost it's edge. Luck is solid but has the problems I mentioned above.

I only watched the first episode of Portlandia and it was alright, but the only sketch I really laughed at was the couple at dinner that gets sucked into the cult at the organic farm. Should give it another shot.

Luck and Sherlock are up next after Downton Abbey.

Qrazy
03-05-2012, 09:28 AM
I only watched the first episode of Portlandia and it was alright, but the only sketch I really laughed at was the couple at dinner that gets sucked into the cult at the organic farm. Should give it another shot.

Luck and Sherlock are up next after Downton Abbey.

I should watch this, then? Someone described it to me as an extended version of Gosford Park (which I like).

Derek
03-05-2012, 06:47 PM
I should watch this, then? Someone described it to me as an extended version of Gosford Park (which I like).

Yeah, it's similar with the whole upstairs/downstairs dynamic. It's not all that original, but it's well written and crafted. It takes a couple episodes to settle in, but once it picks up momentum, it's very interesting.

Irish
03-07-2012, 01:04 PM
Eh. Strange pilot. Lotsa talent involved, and I love the look, but this isn't a TV series. It'd barely work as a movie.

The problem with the setting is that it's too binary. Either the horse wins or it loses, either the people in the stands have money in their pockets at the end of the day or they don't. That doesn't leave a lot of room for subtext, subtlety or interesting gray areas that can produce good drama.

I don't believe in this kind of slice of life story storytelling, at least not on television, and chunks of the pilot seem like bad copies of Elmore Leonard meets Charles Bukowski.

The producers won't be able to successfully emulate the juice that comes from gambling every week, and th audience is only gonna get fooled so many times.

As an aside, I found it odd that the cast seems packed with septaganarians and is almost all male.

Raiders
03-07-2012, 01:17 PM
The problem with the setting is that it's too binary. Either the horse wins or it loses, either the people in the stands have money in their pockets at the end of the day or they don't. That doesn't leave a lot of room for subtext, subtlety or interesting gray areas that can produce good drama.

That's not really true. Granted, each episode so far has had as its centerpiece one or two races, but as we have already seen many times there's a lot of gray area involving the money aspect; whether the trainer can impact the horse's value, the tug between ownership and training and keeping the public from knowing too early the full potential of the horse (this plays into gambling odds and the return on the horse as well as dealing with expectations--the most recent episode had a sequence for this exact thing).

You also haven't seen it yet, but Hoffman's character is only loosely connected to the main racing thread and is involved in a revenge scenario, so they are adding elements only tangent to the horse racing.

I agree the show isn't very intensely dramatic, it is more sullen, wistful and kind of cluttered. I think most of that is intentional, but it is certainly not going to win over viewers looking for typical TV drama.


The producers won't be able to successfully emulate the juice that comes from gambling every week, and th audience is only gonna get fooled so many times.

The show isn't really just about the act of gambling; it is more about the world of horse racing and the arena of gambling in general and all the different aspects from each part of the process (from the start of the horse training to the gamblers looking to hit it big).


As an aside, I found it odd that the cast seems packed with septaganarians and is almost all male.

They are certainly trying to portray this as a male-dominated arena and one with a lot of age and history behind it. It mostly works with the vibe they are giving off, at least through the first five episodes.

Irish
03-07-2012, 06:53 PM
That's not really true. Granted, each episode so far has had as its centerpiece one or two races, but as we have already seen many times there's a lot of gray area involving the money aspect; whether the trainer can impact the horse's value, the tug between ownership and training and keeping the public from knowing too early the full potential of the horse (this plays into gambling odds and the return on the horse as well as dealing with expectations--the most recent episode had a sequence for this exact thing).

You also haven't seen it yet, but Hoffman's character is only loosely connected to the main racing thread and is involved in a revenge scenario, so they are adding elements only tangent to the horse racing.

I agree the show isn't very intensely dramatic, it is more sullen, wistful and kind of cluttered. I think most of that is intentional, but it is certainly not going to win over viewers looking for typical TV drama.

The show isn't really just about the act of gambling; it is more about the world of horse racing and the arena of gambling in general and all the different aspects from each part of the process (from the start of the horse training to the gamblers looking to hit it big).

They are certainly trying to portray this as a male-dominated arena and one with a lot of age and history behind it. It mostly works with the vibe they are giving off, at least through the first five episodes.

I see what you're saying, but there's a couple of ways I think your interpretation is off.

Wall of text inc!

You can set a show in a specific universe and not have the show be about that universe at all (Big Bang Theory, Sports Night). You can go more technical, and wrap the jargon and details directly into character drama (The West Wing). Or, to can say to hell with all that, have actors spew jargon nonstop for entire scenes and then hard switch to deep character moments (House).

The problem with Luck is that it tries to go heavy with the technical stuff about horse racing and gambling, but doesn't give us any characters to lean on. The show throws you into the middle of the action, and outside the moments of Big Gambling, there's no drama to it. We don't know the characters and we don't know what, if anything, is at stake for them.

So the only way to rachet up the tension is to make the audience think, "Holy shit that's a lot of money on single bet." It works in the short term because everyone can relate to anxieties about money, even if they've never gambled in their life. In the long term, this is going to backfire because once the audience realizes they're being played, not only will the attempt at drama failed to land, but they'll be pissed. This what I was trying to say when I said it wasn't a TV show, because TV shows need to last 4 or 5 years. There's no way to make the current setup play over an extended period of time.

What's worse, and to me points to bad writing, is that every once and awhile the show remembers that the audience doesn't know jack about anything, and resorts to hard exposition to fill in the blanks. So you've got people who ostensibly have been hanging around racetracks for years asking really dumb, noobish questions. Or you have characters that have known each other for years telling each other stories they both should already know well (like Dustin Hoffman telling Dennis Farina, in silly detail, why he went to prison).

Granted, at this point I'm only 3 episodes in, but I think that is more than enough time to not only know what a character wants, but why. So maybe when the Irish jockey finally loses her shot, I'll feel more than the general sense of empathy I'd feel anybody misses out on a job.

PS: And they should subtitle Nick Nolte and the Peruvian guy. Holy shite, I can't understand half of what they're mumbling. :P

Raiders
03-07-2012, 07:10 PM
I don't actually disagree with much of that at all. You didn't really say that the first time. I was mainly responding to racing drama being binary, which it isn't if you extend much of the plotlines away from the specific events on the track.

Irish
03-07-2012, 07:21 PM
I don't actually disagree with much of that at all. You didn't really say that the first time. I was mainly responding to racing drama being binary, which it isn't if you extend much of the plotlines away from the specific events on the track.

Sure, I just meant you're only allowed two emotional reactions on these early gambling scenes. Without knowing anything else, it sucks to see a guy lose $25,000 at poker. If he wins, hey that's cool.

And it pretty much ends there, because the show doesn't go deeper. It never explores a moment where losing might turn out to be the best thing that ever happened, or a situation where winning the might turn around cost him everything he actually cares about.

That's what I was trying to communicate about the binary drama, lack of subtlety, etc & no grey areas.

Qrazy
03-07-2012, 08:28 PM
What's worse, and to me points to bad writing, is that every once and awhile the show remembers that the audience doesn't know jack about anything, and resorts to hard exposition to fill in the blanks. So you've got people who ostensibly have been hanging around racetracks for years asking really dumb, noobish questions. Or you have characters that have known each other for years telling each other stories they both should already know well (like Dustin Hoffman telling Dennis Farina, in silly detail, why he went to prison).

PS: And they should subtitle Nick Nolte and the Peruvian guy. Holy shite, I can't understand half of what they're mumbling. :P

Yep.

Milky Joe
03-07-2012, 08:37 PM
"You have not yet reached the age, Dan, have you, where you’re moved to utterance of thoughts properly kept silent?"
"Been known to mutter."
"Not the odd mutter. Habitual fuckin' vocalizing of thoughts best kept to yourself."

I'd argue that scenes like the one between Chester and Gus in the car are a Milchean trope of sorts. Obviously, they both know what happened, but given that he'd just gotten out of prison, maybe he wants to fuckin' talk about it, ya know? I have no fuckin' idea how you get a sense of bad writing out of anything in this show. The writing is the last fuckin' thing wrong with it. My problems with it (despite liking it a lot) come mostly from direction. Musical choices in particular kinda suck a lot of the time, and there was a particularly awful sound design moment in the latest episode where Gambon clearly was moving his mouth but a looped piece of dialogue played. Horribly distracting. Qrazy was right on when he criticized the sound design.

Still, the ending of the last episode had me grinning with Milchean glee. "What the fuck is wrong with me?"

Qrazy
03-07-2012, 08:57 PM
"You have not yet reached the age, Dan, have you, where you’re moved to utterance of thoughts properly kept silent?"
"Been known to mutter."
"Not the odd mutter. Habitual fuckin' vocalizing of thoughts best kept to yourself."

I'd argue that scenes like the one between Chester and Gus in the car are a Milchean trope of sorts. Obviously, they both know what happened, but given that he'd just gotten out of prison, maybe he wants to fuckin' talk about it, ya know? I have no fuckin' idea how you get a sense of bad writing out of anything in this show. The writing is the last fuckin' thing wrong with it. My problems with it (despite liking it a lot) come mostly from direction. Musical choices in particular kinda suck a lot of the time, and there was a particularly awful sound design moment in the latest episode where Gambon clearly was moving his mouth but a looped piece of dialogue played. Horribly distracting. Qrazy was right on when he criticized the sound design.

Still, the ending of the last episode had me grinning with Milchean glee. "What the fuck is wrong with me?"

It just seems like they could have saved that conversation and had it with someone who didn't know like the woman or the number crunching guy.

Irish
03-07-2012, 08:58 PM
Jeez, Joe, that's a lot of fuckin'.

Milky Joe
03-07-2012, 09:00 PM
It just seems like they could have saved that conversation and had it with someone who didn't know like the woman or the number crunching guy.

For some reason I don't think Ace is the type to vocalize his innermost thoughts to people he barely knows.

Qrazy
03-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Jeez, Joe, that's a lot of fuckin'.

He's a big fan of Milch, what did you expect? :lol:

Qrazy
03-07-2012, 09:04 PM
For some reason I don't think Ace is the type to vocalize his innermost thoughts to people he barely knows.

It could have been two conversations then. One saying why he went to jail vis-a-vis the drugs to an outsider and then afterward telling his close confidante how he's going to fuck those bastards for not owning up.

Milky Joe
03-07-2012, 09:06 PM
Or it could have been one! People do weird things! The idea that nobody in real life ever talks to people about things they already know is a fallacy, first off, but even so the "unwritten rule" that characters shall not do such things in film is silly.

Qrazy
03-07-2012, 09:11 PM
Or it could have been one! People do weird things! The idea that nobody in real life ever talks to people about things they already know is a fallacy, first off, but even so the "unwritten rule" that characters shall not do such things in film is silly.

True, but the way that particular conversation came across in the episode did feel like forced info dumping to me personally.

Irish
03-07-2012, 09:18 PM
For some reason I don't think Ace is the type to vocalize his innermost thoughts to people he barely knows.

That's the point though. He's not vocalizing his innermost anything. He's relating a series of events from his past to a person who already knows all of the details.

The only reason he's doing this is because the audience needs that backstory, and the writer was too artless to hide it in any kind of drama.

I disagree about your disagreement. :P

Nobody just sits around monologuing shared histories to their friends, especially without editorializing them at all.

Milky Joe
03-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Nobody just sits around monologuing shared histories to their friends, especially without editorializing them at all.

This is Milch we're talking about. :) All that's missing is the blowjob.

For what it's worth, I felt that scene seemed sort of awkward and forced too, but thought that it had more to do with the direction and editing than the writing. I'll go back and rewatch it sometime. Now that I'm more on board with the characters, I'd like to see how it plays in hindsight.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-07-2012, 09:28 PM
The problem with the setting is that it's too binary. Either the horse wins or it loses, either the people in the stands have money in their pockets at the end of the day or they don't. That doesn't leave a lot of room for subtext, subtlety or interesting gray areas that can produce good drama.

The producers won't be able to successfully emulate the juice that comes from gambling every week, and th audience is only gonna get fooled so many times.


Strongly disagree with your take on this, and I think you're being a bit reductive. While the track as a binary setting makes a logical sense when you place it in those terms, watching the show proves it to be merely a foreground for Milch's usual community-building/fluctuating explorations. I'm finding the characters' inner/outer struggles to be compelling on a moment-by-moment basis.

Milch's series tend to build as these moments accumulate -- the most thrilling thing about Deadwood (even John From Cincinnati to an extent) and now Luck, to me, is their embrace of narrative messiness and clutter. Like the characters, the show is a slow but constant work in progress, slowly revealing its complexities and depths.

To paraphrase a line from the most recent episode:
"Don't be afraid of that, Irish."
"Of what?"
"Everything that can be."

ledfloyd
03-07-2012, 11:19 PM
We don't know the characters and we don't know what, if anything, is at stake for them.
are we watching the same show?

that expository scene between farina and hoffman talking about why he went to prison was pretty bad, but there hasn't been much like that since (at least not until the vets final line this last episode). and i am understanding walter and escalante pretty well at this point.

i also think, and forgive me if this is too obvious, that he is using life surrounding the track as a microcosm for the current state of american capitalism. this is highlighted by the inclusion of the nathan israel character and also explains the overbearing presence of old white men.

but i'm mostly liking the show for the characters, the ambience and the milch dialogue. the fully realized milieu. but i tend to love "slice of life" type shows, as you put it.

Irish
03-08-2012, 04:39 PM
Strongly disagree with your take on this, and I think you're being a bit reductive. While the track as a binary setting makes a logical sense when you place it in those terms, watching the show proves it to be merely a foreground for Milch's usual community-building/fluctuating explorations. I'm finding the characters' inner/outer struggles to be compelling on a moment-by-moment basis.

I think to have a real, well defined struggle you've got to have stakes. And none of the characters in the first handful of episodes have any, outside of "wow, that's a lot of money." There isn't anything personal about it at all.


Milch's series tend to build as these moments accumulate -- the most thrilling thing about Deadwood (even John From Cincinnati to an extent) and now Luck, to me, is their embrace of narrative messiness and clutter. Like the characters, the show is a slow but constant work in progress, slowly revealing its complexities and depths.

Admittedly harsh, but I can't help thinking of "narrative messines" as anything but a clever euphemism (and excuse) for bad writing.

Irish
03-08-2012, 04:41 PM
are we watching the same show?

Maybe not. The one I'm watching isn't any good. :P


i also think, and forgive me if this is too obvious, that he is using life surrounding the track as a microcosm for the current state of american capitalism. this is highlighted by the inclusion of the nathan israel character and also explains the overbearing presence of old white men.

That's too big an academic reach for me. I can't buy into any meta thematic stuff when the foundation of the show is so underdone.

Milky Joe
03-14-2012, 09:32 PM
So, does anybody NOT think that Naomi is going to rob Jerry? They are going to have to do something different just to keep the viewer guessing. But maybe they won't. This show is (sadly) pretty average by Milch standards, but I am still enjoying it.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-15-2012, 12:01 AM
Well fuck.

After the third horse involved with the production of the show had to be put down (this after increased safety precautions following the first two horses' deaths), the show has been canceled.

Fuck.

[ETM]
03-15-2012, 12:02 AM
This is just... too bizarre.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-15-2012, 12:04 AM
Particularly as it had already been renewed for season two, I guess they were already filming the first episode when this occurred.

Raiders
03-15-2012, 12:07 AM
Basically, the people who oversee the treatment of animals wanted an immediate investigation and production had to be halted anyway; then Milch, Mann and company agreed to cancel the series (likely at some direction to do so) since they could not ensure the safety of the animals for future production.

Robby P
03-15-2012, 12:51 AM
This has to be the weirdest reason for canceling a TV show ever.

Henry Gale
03-15-2012, 01:10 AM
I was just about to correct this and say they've just suspended filming for the time being seeing as that's the statement they issued yesterday. But wow, they really did pull the plug.

Kurosawa Fan
03-15-2012, 01:22 AM
I'm sure the horse deaths played a significant role, but this thing got canned because ratings keep falling, and right now are even worse than Californication, a show that isn't very strong to begin with. If Luck was pulling in big ratings, they'd find a way to sort this out and continue production. HBO is being handed an excuse to cancel, and they're taking it.

Raiders
03-15-2012, 01:24 AM
I'm sure the horse deaths played a significant role, but this thing got canned because ratings keep falling, and right now are even worse than Californication, a show that isn't very strong to begin with. If Luck was pulling in big ratings, they'd find a way to sort this out and continue production. HBO is being handed an excuse to cancel, and they're taking it.

Sure, if The Walking Dead started having accidental zombie deaths, they'd find a way to continue while Luck isn't worth the hassle, but it is still an animal death that is the trigger, which is an odd situation.

Kurosawa Fan
03-15-2012, 02:15 AM
Sure, if The Walking Dead started having accidental zombie deaths, they'd find a way to continue while Luck isn't worth the hassle, but it is still an animal death that is the trigger, which is an odd situation.

Oh, no doubt. Certainly bizarre circumstances, but I'm sure HBO is breathing a sigh of relief after renewing so prematurely.

Derek
03-15-2012, 02:27 AM
I was planning on watching this soon, but not sure I'll bother now. As a Mann fan, is it worth watching the first season?

Milky Joe
03-15-2012, 02:54 AM
Yeah, this reeks of a manufactured excuse. I have a feeling that neither Mann, Milch, nor HBO have much interest in continuing.

Morris Schæffer
03-15-2012, 08:34 AM
Bizarre that these animals died. Was safety at an absolute low? No horses probably died while making War Horse, but here three!

ThePlashyBubbler
03-15-2012, 08:38 AM
Yeah, this reeks of a manufactured excuse. I have a feeling that neither Mann, Milch, nor HBO have much interest in continuing.

I don't think it's an excuse to cover up lack of creative/executive excitement or motivation, but more likely a quick way to avoid a PR nightmare or blemish on the HBO brand.

Irish
03-15-2012, 01:38 PM
Yeah, this reeks of a manufactured excuse. I have a feeling that neither Mann, Milch, nor HBO have much interest in continuing.

I don't think they'd need to manufacture an excuse as the numbers were pretty low.

Irish
03-15-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm sure the horse deaths played a significant role, but this thing got canned because ratings keep falling, and right now are even worse than Californication, a show that isn't very strong to begin with. If Luck was pulling in big ratings, they'd find a way to sort this out and continue production. HBO is being handed an excuse to cancel, and they're taking it.

I dunno. It's pretty freaky. Somehow they managed to kill a horse every 4 episodes or so.

Grouchy
03-15-2012, 06:10 PM
My family is somewhat involved with horses and sports such as polo. I'm no racing expert, but my first reaction to this is that it isn't all that easy to exhaust a horse to death.

I'd like to know exactly how they managed to kill three horses. I haven't seen the show, by the way.

Milky Joe
03-15-2012, 09:07 PM
The article I read said that the horse was "walking back to the barn" when it was injured and had to be euthanized. No more details than that. That doesn't make sense to me, but I don't know anything about horses, so.

Ezee E
03-15-2012, 09:19 PM
Makes total sense to me. Those horse racing scenes look pretty tough to shoot. Make those horses run take after take, and adding in camera movements, other equipment, it wouldn't surprise me that it's pretty easy for a horse to break its leg after several hours of shooting.

Once a leg is broken, most horses are put down, just like on the show's first (maybe second...) episode. It's brutal on the horse owner who invested thousands into raising and keeping the horse. For a show that lost three, it wouldn't surprise me that it was pretty emotional for the film crew and actors.

Milky Joe
03-15-2012, 09:41 PM
But the horse didn't break its leg during a race, it was just walking back to the barn. Whatever. Sad. :(

Ezee E
03-15-2012, 09:43 PM
But the horse didn't break its leg during a race, it was just walking back to the barn. Whatever. Sad. :(
Can't answer to that particular horse. I just imagine that 8-12 hours of filming is extremely rough on a horse. Maybe it was exhausted and tripped? No clue.

Thirdmango
03-15-2012, 11:25 PM
I, probably like most people, stopped watching after the first episode because I just didn't understand it. That may have been the biggest reason for the failing ratings.

amberlita
03-16-2012, 01:11 AM
But the horse didn't break its leg during a race, it was just walking back to the barn. Whatever. Sad. :(

I think sometimes significant injuries don't become apparent in racing horses until after the race. The adrenaline is pumping and they may not manifest the injury until they have started to cool down. If you notice the injury later and realize how significant it is, that might warrant euthanizing the horse.

I'm just guessing here. I know no idea what happened in that particular case.

[ETM]
03-16-2012, 01:44 AM
I read that the horse got agitated, fell over backwards and hit the head on the ground.

Henry Gale
03-16-2012, 05:56 PM
I heard the horses were assassinated by Showtime. They really want those Emmys for Homeland.

Ezee E
03-16-2012, 10:30 PM
Luck would have no chance at a Emmy, much less an Emmy nomination.

Henry Gale
03-16-2012, 10:40 PM
Do you think they'd really know that? We're talking about a network whose flagship show is Dexter here.

They got no time for high profile shows about lovable animals taking away from potential viewers of drunk William H. Macy.

Milky Joe
03-16-2012, 11:00 PM
Luck would have no chance at a Emmy, much less an Emmy nomination.

:-/ Irrespective of whether I agree, shouldn't it be the other way around? As in "Luck would have no chance at an Emmy nomination, much less an Emmy."

Ezee E
03-17-2012, 01:10 AM
:-/ Irrespective of whether I agree, shouldn't it be the other way around? As in "Luck would have no chance at an Emmy nomination, much less an Emmy."
Touche.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-26-2012, 07:17 AM
Loved the finale, really sad to see this go. For those interested, Sepinwall has an interview with Milch (http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/interview-luck-creator-david-milch-on-the-series-premature-end) up that clarifies the horse issues somewhat.

EDIT: For Deadwood fans, it's also interesting that Milch mentions offhand that he was aware of its cancellation when he wrote the final episode.

Thirdmango
03-26-2012, 10:11 PM
EDIT: For Deadwood fans, it's also interesting that Milch mentions offhand that he was aware of its cancellation when he wrote the final episode.

So then my question would be for you does it have a decent ending feel? I know you said you liked the finale but you know... I only watched the first episode but I don't know if I want to get into it if the ending is not really an ending.

Milky Joe
03-26-2012, 10:39 PM
Haven't watched the finale yet, but reading this post-cancellation interview with Mann and Milch (http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/michael-mann-david-milch-interview-luck-horses-cancellation.html?imw=Y) (linked in the interview TPB posted above) made me recant on all my previous suspicions and makes me deeply sad that this show won't be continuing. Its demise was only due to political posturing. Really depressing.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-27-2012, 01:48 AM
So then my question would be for you does it have a decent ending feel? I know you said you liked the finale but you know... I only watched the first episode but I don't know if I want to get into it if the ending is not really an ending.

Just to clarify, that comment was regarding the Deadwood finale, not Luck's (for which they had already begun the second season).

With that said, I thought the finale did a fair amount to give the characters some sort of closure. Certainly there's enough left unresolved that I would've loved a second season, but I'd still highly recommend people who are interested to watch what we got. It stands up pretty well as a complete piece, and doesn't have any crazy cliffhangers or anything like that.

Ezee E
03-27-2012, 04:00 AM
Deadwood's finale certainly has an "ending" feel, albeit rushed, and certainly not what I believe is intended. I believe he wanted to do two two-hour specials that never came to be.

Fairly sure he wanted to end on the city burning down.

ledfloyd
03-27-2012, 04:49 AM
well, luck was fantastic and i'm pretty bummed we won't get to see the next phase in ace's story.

ThePlashyBubbler
03-27-2012, 06:35 AM
Deadwood's finale certainly has an "ending" feel, albeit rushed, and certainly not what I believe is intended. I believe he wanted to do two two-hour specials that never came to be.

Fairly sure he wanted to end on the city burning down.

Yeah, before this interview I had heard they wanted to wrap up the series with a fourth season (ending with the city burning down), which was then assumedly renegotiated as the two-hour specials. I assumed those were scrapped after season three finished production, as many fans cite the ending as inconclusive. Milch still didn't want to end the entire show after that finale, but it's at least interesting he knew while writing it that there'd probably not be a follow up.

Milky Joe
03-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Tremendous finale. This was going places.