Match-Cut Directors Consensus - Park Chan-wook

[dreamdead]

Sh. Don't remember that people kinda sorta did this consensus in the Thirst anticipation thread. It's Park Chan-wook week. Let them ratings fly, before Park loses his contemplative pose.

http://lecriducagou.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/park_chan_wook_web.jpg

Filmography:

The Moon Is... the Sun's Dream (1992)
Trio (1997)
Judgment (1999) (short film)
Joint Security Area (2000)
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002)
If You Were Me (2003) (segment "Never Ending Peace And Love")
Oldboy (2003)
Three... Extremes (2004) (segment "Cut")
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (2005)
I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK (2006)
Thirst (2009)

[soitgoes...]

Joint Security Area (2000) - 6.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002) - 7.5
Oldboy (2003) - 10
Lady Vengeance (2005) - 7.0
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK (2006) - 9.0
Thirst (2009) - 6.5

[kopello]

Oldboy - 8.5
Thirst - 7.5

[Ezee E]

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 5
Oldboy - 9
Cut - 7
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance -6
Thirst - 8.5

[Raiders]

Oldboy (2003) 6.0

[transmogrifier]

Joint Security Area (2000) - 5.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002) - 7.5
Oldboy (2003) - 9.5
Lady Vengeance (2005) - 6.5
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK (2006) - 3.5
Thirst (2009) - 7.5

[EyesWideOpen]

Joint Security Area - 8
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 10
Oldboy - 10
Cut - 8.5
Lady Vengeance - 9
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK - 8
Thirst - 9

[Mysterious Dude]

Oldboy - 6

[Grouchy]

Joint Security Area - 8
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 9
Oldboy - 10
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 6
I'm a Cyborg but That's OK - 9

[Derek]

Oldboy - 7.5
Lady Vengeance - 7.0
Thirst - 6.5

[Cherish]

Lady Vengeance - 10
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK - 9
Thirst - 5.5

[Rowland]

I need to see Oldboy again.

JSA - 7.0
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 8.5
Oldboy - 8.0
Cut - 4.5
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 6.0
Thirst - 6.0

[Spinal]

Oldboy - 7

[baby doll]

Old Boy (2003) [6]
Three... Extremes [segment "Cut"] (2004) [6]
Lady Vengence (2005) [5]

There's still a couple I want to see, but so far he's no Bong Joon-ho.

[D_Davis]

Joint Security Area - 7
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 8
Oldboy - 10
Cut - 9
Lady Vengeance - 8
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK - 6

[Winston*]

Dug his first 3 films, didn't understand Sympathy for Lady Vengeance, got Thirst sitting at home waiting to be watched.

[Boner M]

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 7.5
Oldboy - 7
Cut - 3.5
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 4
Thirst - 5

[Melville]

Oldboy - 7.5
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 5

[dreamdead]

Joint Security Area - 6.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 8
Oldboy - 7
Lady Vengeance - 4.5
Thirst - 6.5

Barring the first film, Park doesn't seem to engage with the sociological aspects of South Korean culture as much as other of his countrymen. He's a good, versatile showman, but he's not especially challenging.

[BuffaloWilder]

What a silly thing to fault a filmmaker for.

[Grouchy]

Barring the first film, Park doesn't seem to engage with the sociological aspects of South Korean culture as much as other of his countrymen. He's a good, versatile showman, but he's not especially challenging.
Bah, I hate that line of thinking. So because he's not interested in what you want him to be interested in you simply assume he's not deep or not challenging enough.

[dreamdead]

Bah, I hate that line of thinking. So because he's not interested in what you want him to be interested in you simply assume he's not deep or not challenging enough.

I do lean toward dramas more in my appreciation, yes, but tonally and dramatically I haven't found much of value in Park's recent ventures, which have become bloated without saying nearly as much as his first films. There's nothing wrong with a "well-made" genre film--hell, South Korea film criticism has instituted a whole practice of criticism based on this notion where the film style elevates the material--but after the first in the revenge trilogy his interest in Korean culture has become dulled by nonuse or glib use. Thirst is elevated by the portrayal of its leading lady, not because of its script.

Though baby doll is similarly glib in dismissing Park in favor of Bong, I simply wish to see Park return to the restraint and intrigue that elevated his first films.

[Grouchy]

I do lean toward dramas more in my appreciation, yes, but tonally and dramatically I haven't found much of value in Park's recent ventures, which have become bloated without saying nearly as much as his first films. There's nothing wrong with a "well-made" genre film--hell, South Korea film criticism has instituted a whole practice of criticism based on this notion where the film style elevates the material--but after the first in the revenge trilogy his interest in Korean culture has become dulled by nonuse or glib use. Thirst is elevated by the portrayal of its leading lady, not because of its script.

Though baby doll is similarly glib in dismissing Park in favor of Bong, I simply wish to see Park return to the restraint and intrigue that elevated his first films.
I understand what you're saying. I disagree because I like "universal" movies like I'm a Cyborg but That's OK and I don't think it suffers because it has little to say about Korean culture, but I do.

[B-side]

Oldboy (2003) - 8
I’m a Cyborg, But That’s OK (2006) - 8

[StanleyK]

Oldboy - 9.5

[baby doll]

I'm going to side with dreamdead on this one, at least in principle, since I don't know Park's films very well. As some one who finds the real world interesting, I generally can't get that excited about films whose principal aim is to serve as an escape from it, no matter how well made. Oldboy is certainly entertaining, but it has zero resonance. I not only find Bong superior as a genre stylist (both Memories of Murder and The Host held my attention until the end, while Oldboy gets progressively less interesting with each reel, and Lady Vengence shoots itself in the foot pretty badly near the end), but I find that his films have more social resonance as well. (The best South Korean film I've seen overall is still Lee Chang-dong's Peppermint Candy by a wide margin.)

[transmogrifier]

You are so insanely wrong about Oldboy. It's a film that gets better and better, deeper and deeper as it progresses. And better and better, deeper and deeper everytime you watch it. Sometimes, I want to call it the best fil of the 2000s, but then I think about Mulholland Dr and Eternal Sunshine and Battle Royale and Spirited Away and I think, damn, movies have sucked the past five years or so.

Wait, what was my point again?

[Adam]

I think there are technical things in Oldboy, like neat tricks in the sound editing, that reward repeat viewings. Outside of that, though, it's terminally shallow and its most dizzying highs were only effective for me the first time around. I feel more or less exactly the same way about Oldboy as I do both Kill Bill movies. Based off your signature, you think those movies are really worlds apart in terms of thematic depth, transmogrifier?

[transmogrifier]

Based off your signature, you think those movies are really worlds apart in terms of thematic depth, transmogrifier?

Miles apart. Absolute miles.

[D_Davis]

Even though I like most of his movies a great deal, I totally understand the criticisms raised in this thread.

Park's films are pop through and through - very little substance, not much to really say about culture, and very slick and stylish. I just happen to like them more than those who don't. I like the style, and find the stories - while somewhat empty in terms of "importance" - are compelling.

[transmogrifier]

I disagree with the lack of depth thing; it seems to me that a lot of people see the flashiness and assume that it denotes style over substance. I'm not talking about all his movies - JSA is totally all about plot - but there are definitely moral uncertainties being wrestled with in many of them.

It seems strange to me that something as basic and straightforward in its themes as No Country for Old Man gets feted as a masterpiece, when it is really a plain as a piece of toast in terms of the intellectual weight of it. It is atmospheric and well-paced, but that's about it. Oldboy has so much more going on, but because it happens to have giant ants on subways (and the director has said that it didn't have any special meaning apart he was fascinated by ants - a comment jumped on by anti-Parkists as if one decision was an accurate barometer of all his decisions on that movie)

But still, at least I can pop in Oldboy at any time and be totally enthralled and jazzed by it. It beats being the opposite :)

[baby doll]

It seems strange to me that something as basic and straightforward in its themes as No Country for Old Man gets feted as a masterpiece, when it is really a plain as a piece of toast in terms of the intellectual weight of it. It is atmospheric and well-paced, but that's about it.While I don't consider it a masterpiece, I think No Country for Old Men is vastly superior in terms of craftsmanship (particularly the sound mix) and storytelling (the elliptical handling of several major plot points). Part of the reason I don't think it's a masterpiece--and why I prefer Burn After Reading, apart it from being much funnier--is its dubious claims to having intellectual weight.

[B-side]

Part of the reason I don't think it's a masterpiece--and why I prefer Burn After Reading, apart it from being much funnier--is its dubious claims to having intellectual weight.

How can a film claim to have intellectual weight?

[Grouchy]

How can a film claim to have intellectual weight?
Agreed, it's a weird thing to say.

[baby doll]

How can a film claim to have intellectual weight?In this particular case, the film positions itself as being more grownup in relation to other westerns, where the good guys always win. In this film, the bad guy (who can appear and disappear at will) is always the winner, which I don't think is any more grownup.

[Derek]

In this particular case, the film positions itself as being more grownup in relation to other westerns, where the good guys always win.

Except the good guy doesn't always win in westerns, unless you discount westerns made after, say, 1960. So in this particular case, that's a silly thing to say.

[Grouchy]

In this particular case, the film positions itself as being more grownup in relation to other westerns, where the good guys always win. In this film, the bad guy (who can appear and disappear at will) is always the winner, which I don't think is any more grownup.
Wow, you really have a very narrow way of looking at movies.

[baby doll]

Except the good guy doesn't always win in westerns, unless you discount westerns made after, say, 1960. So in this particular case, that's a silly thing to say.Well yeah, I was thinking more of old school westerns by Howard Hawks and John Ford.

[baby doll]

Wow, you really have a very narrow way of looking at movies.How open should I be?

[Derek]

Well yeah, I was thinking more of old school westerns by Howard Hawks and John Ford.

The point being, is every revisionist western positioning itself as more grown up than previous westerns? Does The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence position itself as more grown up than Stagecoach? I just think it's unnecessary judge a film like No Country for Old Men differently simply because the protagonist isn't a typical hero and the good guys don't always win. And the antagonist clearly operates on an allegorical level, so his near-supernatural ability to "disappear" is not simply a childish antic thrown in there thoughtlessly.

[transmogrifier]

I think the use of Chigurh (?) as an allegory is one of the worst parts of the film. I found his character deathly dull, and thematically, a total waste of time. Is he supposed to represent evil, popping up here, there and everywhere? If so, it's a hollow representation, the idea of it as some unstoppable force.

[Chac Mool]

-9-
Oldboy (2003)

-7-
Joint Security Area (2000)
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002)
Three... Extremes (2004) (segment "Cut")
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (2005)

-6-
Thirst (2009)

He's a good storyteller with a knack for set-pieces -- individual scenes in movies like Oldboy, the two Symathies and even Thirst are terrific. His best film is Oldboy because it's his most coherent: every aspect of his direction is in service of the story. His other movies combine drama, humour and social themes to interesting effect, but they're too messy and scattershot to really work.

[baby doll]

I think the use of Chigurh (?) as an allegory is one of the worst parts of the film. I found his character deathly dull, and thematically, a total waste of time. Is he supposed to represent evil, popping up here, there and everywhere? If so, it's a hollow representation, the idea of it as some unstoppable force.I'll agree that Chigurh was one of the weakest aspects of the movie, but maybe for a different reason. I mean, he's basically a walking, disappearin' idea more than a nuanced character. And to clarify my earlier statements, what I was trying to say is that, even though here the good guys are the losers, that doesn't make it more grownup than a John Wayne picture where the good guys are the winners as it still upholds the rather childish worldview that you can make a clear distinction between the good guys (Tommy Lee Jones, Kelly MacDonald) and the bad guys (Javier Bardem). I suppose you might point to Josh Brolin as a more rounded character (he has good and bad attributes), but he still falls into the film noir category of good men who are tempted by evil, and pay the price for it.

[Raiders]

Just because Tommy Lee Jones is easily recognized on the "good" side of the equation doesn't make him a simple or static character.

[Grouchy]

I'll agree that Chigurh was one of the weakest aspects of the movie, but maybe for a different reason. I mean, he's basically a walking, disappearin' idea more than a nuanced character. And to clarify my earlier statements, what I was trying to say is that, even though here the good guys are the losers, that doesn't make it more grownup than a John Wayne picture where the good guys are the winners as it still upholds the rather childish worldview that you can make a clear distinction between the good guys (Tommy Lee Jones, Kelly MacDonald) and the bad guys (Javier Bardem). I suppose you might point to Josh Brolin as a more rounded character (he has good and bad attributes), but he still falls into the film noir category of good men who are tempted by evil, and pay the price for it.
None of the things you said make any sense nor have anything to do with "grown-up" writing.

[Sven]

Haven't done one of these in a while. Thought I would come and spread the unimpressed:

Joint Security Area (2000) - 6.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002) - 6
Oldboy (2003) - 8.5
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (2005) - 5

I think that I like him as a director more than the ratings suggest. I just don't like the films much.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Oldboy - 7
"Cut" - 4
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 5

[thefourthwall]

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 8
Oldboy - 8.5
Thirst - 7

dd will get this calculated tomorrow.

[dreamdead]

Results:
Oldboy - 8.1591 (22)
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 7.6667 (12)
I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK - 7.5 (7)
Joint Security Area - 6.8889 (9)
Thirst - 6.875 (12)
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance - 6.3125 (13)
= 7.0664

Short film:
Cut - 6.0625 (8)

Those who haven't seen Oldboy: Cherish
Lowest rating for Oldboy was a 6, so still-positive: Raiders, baby doll, Antoine
The likelihood that we'll ever do a Bong Joon-ho week: nil

[soitgoes...]

The likelihood that we'll ever do a Bong Joon-ho week: nil

Hey, Hong Sang-soo has a week, and he's less popular around these parts than Bong.

[Sycophant]

Bong Joon-Ho week is such a good idea.

I should've participated in this. I think I'd thought it ended already, with all the grown-up western talk.

[transmogrifier]

Hey, Hong Sang-soo has a week, and he's less popular around these parts than Bong.


I'll do my scores for Hong Sang-Soo now:

Choose Any Film (1997-2009) - 5

[Derek]

I'll do my scores for Hong Sang-Soo now:

Choose Any Film (1997-2009) - 5

You haven't seen The Day a Pig Fell into the Well? It's his weakest film (though the laughably bad English subtitles don't help it much), but you should watch it to see if it breaks your streak of wrongness.

[dreamdead]

Hey, Hong Sang-soo has a week, and he's less popular around these parts than Bong.

True, but since I suggested that week, I take the blame for enacting what will undoubtedly be one of the lowest attended DC weeks.


Bong Joon-Ho week is such a good idea.


Hmm. Perhaps we should do both Hong and Bong that week together. Naturally, there's no logical reason, save for the fact that this year feels like the last of the consensus threads and I do like both directors. Ezee E, let's make it happen (and I'll run it, so no worries on that front)!

[Raiders]

this year feels like the last of the consensus threads and I do like both directors.

I hope not. Next year doesn't have to be a full year, but there are plenty of worthwhile directors we haven't done yet.

[Ezee E]

I hope not. Next year doesn't have to be a full year, but there are plenty of worthwhile directors we haven't done yet.
Indeed. Many may not actually provide results, but there's still plenty to do. John Waters for one.

[StanleyK]

JSA: Joint Security Area - 5.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 7
Oldboy - 8.5
Lady Vengeance - 5.5
I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK - 4
Thirst - 7
Stoker - 4
The Handmaiden - 7



Good director, but his movies tend to wind down during the third act and don't reach their full impact. Oldboy is the only one that really knocked it out of the Park.

[transmogrifier]

JSA: Joint Security Area - 5.5
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance - 7
Oldboy - 8.5
Lady Vengeance - 5.5
I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK - 4
Thirst - 7
Stoker - 4
The Handmaiden - 7



Good director, but his movies tend to wind down during the third act and don't reach their full impact. Oldboy is the only one that really knocked it out of the Park.

Based on your claim re: the third act, I have to disagree with Thirst. That last scene is maybe his best ever.

[Dukefrukem]

No Three... Extremes ??

[StanleyK]

Based on your claim re: the third act, I have to disagree with Thirst. That last scene is maybe his best ever.

Yeah it is quite a nice scene. It's not that Thirst or The Handmaiden or Lady Vengeance don't have good moments during their last stretch, but after such an intense beginning and middle the pace lags instead of ramping up like in Oldboy, which I think weakens them. Maybe rewatching them knowing that they slow down towards the end I'll have a different reaction, but on a first viewing I was underwhelmed.


No Three... Extremes ??

Haven't seen it; I'm usually not too interested in anthology movies.