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Acapelli
12-13-2007, 12:11 AM
Blankets
Astro City (Confession arc)
Seaguy
Dark Knight Returns
Wanted
We3
Spider-Man: Blue

Definitely a few more I can't recall at the moment.

number8
12-13-2007, 12:34 AM
Arkham Asylum, Blankets, Watchmen (obvious)...

And a bunch of Alan Moore. Any Alan Moore. I can never answer this question properly because of Alan Moore. F'n Alan F'n Moore.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 12:36 AM
Are we talking actual graphic novels, or trade paperback collections of individual issues?

As far as actual graphic novels go, I have to give it up to the work of Chester Brown, and more specifically The Playboy. It is a masterpiece of the comic book medium.

Melville
12-13-2007, 01:42 AM
1. Jimmy Corrigan, Chris Ware
2. Quimby the Mouse, Chris Ware
3. From Hell, Alan Moore & Eddie Campbell
4. Amphigorey, Edward Gorey
5. Peanuts Treasury, Charles Schulz
6. Watchmen, Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
7. Cerebus, Dave Sim
8. Hellboy, Mike Mignola
9. V for Vendetta, Alan Moore & David Lloyd
10. Frank, Jim Woodring
11. Louis Riel, Chester Brown
12. The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller
13. Ghost World, Dan Clowes
14. Maus, Art Spiegelman
15. Hey, Wait, Jason
16. City of Glass, P. Karasik & David Mazzucchelli
17. Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, Mattotti & Kramsky
18. Ice Haven, Dan Clowes
19. Year One, Miller & Mazzucchelli
20. Born Again, Miller & Mazzucchelli

Sycophant
12-13-2007, 01:48 AM
I'm trying to increase my intake of graphic novels. There's a few sitting at home I have yet to crack.

Meanwhile, here's a top five:

1. Maus
2. Watchmen
3. Same Difference and Other Stories (maybe not precisely a "novel")
4. American Born Chinese
5. Pyongyang

Melville
12-13-2007, 01:56 AM
As far as actual graphic novels go, I have to give it up to the work of Chester Brown, and more specifically The Playboy. It is a masterpiece of the comic book medium.
Yeah, The Playboy is great. Although I prefer I Never Liked You—maybe just because it had a more identifiable story arc.



3. Same Difference and Other Stories (maybe not precisely a "novel")
4. American Born Chinese
5. Pyongyang
I've never heard of these. Hopefully this thread can turn into a good source of recommendations.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 01:57 AM
7. Cerebus, Dave Sim


Now here is comicdom's crowing achievement of literature.

Yes sir.

Anyone read any Eisner?

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:00 AM
Yeah, The Playboy is great. Although I prefer I Never Liked You—maybe just because it had a more identifiable story arc.


I also like I Never Liked You, but the soul-laid-bare story of The Playboy is so gripping. It is such a personal story, so full of humiliation, struggle, racism and sexism, all punctuated with a conflict of morals and a battle with self-control. It's almost embarrassing to read, know what I mean?

Just imagine drawing pictures of yourself masturbating and then selling them to the public! That's f'n brave.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:02 AM
Now here is comicdom's crowing achievement of literature.
Well, it might have been if it hadn't gone off the rails towards the end (although I think I would still prefer Jimmy Corrigan).


Any read any Eisner?
Yeah, but none of his really famous stuff (e.g. The Spirit, Contract with God, etc.). The books that I read (The Building and Last Day in Vietnam) were a bit too hokey for my liking, although the fluidity of Eisner's art made them worth reading.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:02 AM
Astro City (Confession arc)


As far as super hero stuff goes, this is a remarkable addition. One of the few super hero stories I still pick up.

Miyazaki's Nausicaa comic is also pretty damn amazing and boy is it ever epic.

Also, Tekkonkinkreet is pretty damn good.

number8
12-13-2007, 02:02 AM
A Contract with God. Read it.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:04 AM
I also like I Never Liked You, but the soul-laid-bare story of The Playboy is so gripping. It is such a personal story, so full of humiliation, struggle, racism and sexism, all punctuated with a conflict of morals and a battle with self-control. It's almost embarrassing to read, know what I mean?

Just imagine drawing pictures of yourself masturbating and then selling them to the public! That's f'n brave.
Have you read anything by Joe Matt? He takes "embarrassing to read" to a whole new level.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:04 AM
Well, it might have been if it hadn't gone off the rails towards the end (although I think I would still prefer Jimmy Corrigan).


Yeah, but none of his really famous stuff (e.g. The Spirit, Contract with God, etc.). The books that I read (The Building and Last Day in Vietnam) were a bit too hokey for my liking, although the fluidity of Eisner's art made them worth reading.

I still haven't finished Cerebus, so I'll have to hold off on judging the end.

I've owned Jimmy Corrigan for a few years, but I just can't get into it. I don't know what it is, but something about the story just doesn't engage me.

Contract With God is excellent. I haven't read enough Eisner, but I do swear by his artwork.

number8
12-13-2007, 02:04 AM
And anyone who likes Astro City should read Top 10. Awesome, awesome stuff.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:04 AM
A Contract with God. Read it.
I've been meaning to.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:04 AM
Have you read anything by Joe Matt? He takes "embarrassing to read" to a whole new level.

No, I haven't. What do you suggest?

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:05 AM
A Contract with God. Read it.

Yeah - it's damn good.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:09 AM
I still haven't finished Cerebus, so I'll have to hold off on judging the end.
How far are you into it?


I've owned Jimmy Corrigan for a few years, but I just can't get into it. I don't know what it is, but something about the story just doesn't engage me.
To be honest, based on your taste in movies, I don't think you'd like it. Its relentlessly formal and slow-moving, and its humor is decidedly bleak. You seem to prefer more free-wheeling stuff.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:13 AM
No, I haven't. What do you suggest?
His comic is called Peepshow. I don't know if he has any stand-alone collections. But I actually wouldn't recommend reading his comic at all: it really is entirely about him obsessively masturbating, acting lazy and selfish, and mistreating his girlfriend. It's interesting for its confessional nature, but I don't really care for it. His art doesn't particularly appeal to me either.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:15 AM
His comic is called Peepshow. I don't know if he has any stand-alone collections. But I actually wouldn't recommend reading his comic at all: it really is entirely about him obsessively masturbating, acting lazy and selfish, and mistreating his girlfriend. It's interesting for its confessional nature, but I don't really care for it. His art doesn't particularly appeal to me either.


Ah. Sounds like it lacks the humanity of Chester Brown's work. Would this be a correct assumption?

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:18 AM
How far are you into it?


To be honest, based on your taste in movies, I don't think you'd like it. Its relentlessly formal and slow-moving, and its humor is decidedly bleak. You seem to prefer more free-wheeling stuff.

I finished Minds last year, so just a little over half way, no? I think that Jaka's Story may be the most "literary" comic book I've read. That story is so dense and wonderful, and the prose is sublime.

Yeah, with JC, I just can't get into it. I do love the art, and the page layouts are excellent, but I just don't care about the story enough.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:19 AM
And anyone who likes Astro City should read Top 10. Awesome, awesome stuff.

I want to check this out. Also, We3.

megladon8
12-13-2007, 02:25 AM
I need to re-read "Watchmen" one of these days, as I really didn't think it was as mind-bogglingly amazing as others do.

As for my all-time favorite comics...

"Batman: Year One" by Frank Miller
"Saga of the Swamp Thing" by Alan Moore
the 2002+ run of "Captain Marvel"
"Superman: Secret Identity" by Kurt Busiek
"Astro City: Confession" by Kurt Busiek
"Superman: Birthright" by Mark Waid

Pretty much anything by Kurt Busiek is worth reading.

number8
12-13-2007, 02:29 AM
His comic is called Peepshow. I don't know if he has any stand-alone collections. But I actually wouldn't recommend reading his comic at all: it really is entirely about him obsessively masturbating, acting lazy and selfish, and mistreating his girlfriend. It's interesting for its confessional nature, but I don't really care for it. His art doesn't particularly appeal to me either.

He has a graphic novel called Poor Bastard that was pretty popular. HBO almost made it into an animated series produced by Futurama's David X. Cohen.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:35 AM
Ah. Sounds like it lacks the humanity of Chester Brown's work. Would this be a correct assumption?
As far as I can tell. I haven't read a whole lot of it.


I finished Minds last year, so just a little over half way, no?
That's two-thirds way through. If you didn't mind Reads, you might not have such a problem with the last third. I find Sim's nonsensical arguments and overbearing condescension very irritating, and those traits eventually come to dominate the whole book. The art (especially its use of lettering, which just gets better and better) remains spectacular, but the story becomes a meandering chore in the last two books (Latter Days and The Last Day), dominated largely by an interminable line-by-line interpretation of the Torah (which sounds more interesting than it is). And even before that, Sim's philosophy completely overwhelms the characters, making the whole thing painfully pedantic.


I think that Jaka's Story may be the most "literary" comic book I've read. That story is so dense and wonderful, and the prose is sublime.
Really? I love Jaka's Story, but I thought the prose was its weak link. I don't think Sim really pulls off Wilde's aestheticist style.


Yeah, with JC, I just can't get into it. I do love the art, and the page layouts are excellent, but I just don't care about the story enough.
It was a pretty heartbreaking read for me, but, yeah, I don't see it being your kind of thing. Check out Quimby the Mouse for even more spectacular use of page layouts, though.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:37 AM
He has a graphic novel called Poor Bastard that was pretty popular. HBO almost made it into an animated series produced by Futurama's David X. Cohen.
Yeah, that collects the first six issues of Peepshow. I haven't read it, so I'm not sure how self-contained it is. I guess it would be a good place to start, regardless.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:38 AM
"Superman: Sexret Identity" by Kurt Busiek
That sounds kind of perverse for a Superman comic.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:39 AM
That's two-thirds way through. If you didn't mind Reads, you might not have such a problem with the last third. I find Sim's nonsensical arguments and overbearing condescension very irritating, and those traits eventually come to dominate the whole book. The art (especially its use of lettering, which just gets better and better) remains spectacular, but the story becomes a meandering chore in the last two books (Latter Days and The Last Day), dominated largely by an interminable line-by-line interpretation of the Torah (which sounds more interesting than it is). And even before that, Sim's philosophy completely overwhelms the characters, making the whole thing painfully pedantic.


Interesting criticism. I plan on picking up the rest of the books over the next year, so we'll have to pick up on this at a later date, perhaps, in another thread.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:43 AM
Interesting criticism. I plan on picking up the rest of the books over the next year, so we'll have to pick up on this at a later date, perhaps, in another thread.
It's the standard criticism, as far as I know. Not very many people liked the last third of Cerebus and its endless rants about the evils of the feminist-homosexualist axis.

D_Davis
12-13-2007, 02:45 AM
It's the standard criticism, as far as I know. Not very many people liked the last third of Cerebus and its endless rants about the evils of the feminist-homosexualist axis.

Yeah, Sim sure does have some strong convictions, that's for sure, to say the least.

As far as the "standard criticism" goes, I wouldn't know because I haven't actually read much about the series.

Melville
12-13-2007, 02:59 AM
Yeah, Sim sure does have some strong convictions, that's for sure, to say the least.
Heh. That really is saying the least. But the problem isn't with his strong convictions, it's that he's so damn pedantic about them—and that he constantly holds himself as some kind of paragon of rational thinking even while his arguments consist entirely of strings of logical fallacies. His martyr complex is also pretty irritating. Normally I don't care about an author's personality when judging his work, but in this case Sim really makes his work explicitly revolve around his personality.

Anyway, let me know what you think of the last third.


As far as the "standard criticism" goes, I wouldn't know because I haven't actually read much about the series.
Yeah, Sim going off the rails caused quite a brouhaha in the indie comics scene.

Acapelli
12-13-2007, 06:46 AM
And anyone who likes Astro City should read Top 10. Awesome, awesome stuff.
Just picked up the first trade of this.

And I can't believe I left Watchmen off my list.

ledfloyd
12-14-2007, 02:07 AM
Ah. Sounds like it lacks the humanity of Chester Brown's work. Would this be a correct assumption?
could be. though i think his portrayal of his porn addiction is rather human. his earlier stuff wasn't quite as porn centered. that's been emphasized with the last story he did in peepshow (collected as 'spent'). the earlier stuff still has self loathing and such, but the poor bastard his first collection i think is as good as chester brown and seth's best stuff. but then again you put chester brown on a pedestal so you might not agree with me.

i'll have to think over what my favorite graphic novels are a bit more before i put something down in ink.

Spinal
03-06-2009, 02:31 AM
Just finished Maus. It is not only one of the most extraordinary graphic novels I have ever read, but it also elevates my esteem for the medium. What a masterful, breathtaking use of the form.

Kurosawa Fan
03-06-2009, 02:35 AM
Just finished Maus. It is not only one of the most extraordinary graphic novels I have ever read, but it also elevates my esteem for the medium. What a masterful, breathtaking use of the form.

I need to read this. I almost bought it on one of my trips to B&N, but the Holocaust is something I just don't feel much like reading about. But everyone I know raves about it, so I should just get over it and give it a go.

Spinal
03-06-2009, 02:47 AM
I need to read this. I almost bought it on one of my trips to B&N, but the Holocaust is something I just don't feel much like reading about. But everyone I know raves about it, so I should just get over it and give it a go.

Yeah, I'm not sure why now was the right time to read it, but I saw it in the library and decided to give it a go. Really gripping tale once you get into it. No matter how many times you hear such tales, the cruelty of it doesn't get any easier to understand.

Think I'm going to finally give Shoah a shot.

Spinal
03-06-2009, 03:24 AM
In addition to Maus, I would say that my other favorites are The Sandman and Buddha.

number8
03-06-2009, 04:46 AM
In addition to Maus, I would say that my other favorites are The Sandman and Buddha.

You have excellent taste then.

Raiders
03-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Fax from Sarajevo

Spaceman Spiff
03-06-2009, 02:55 PM
1. Calvin and Hobbes (Watterson) [I would consider it a sort of very long novel, either way it is the finest achievement of the medium for me.]
2. Jimmy Corrigan (Ware)
3. From Hell (Moore)
4. Maus (Spiegelman)
5. Watchmen (Moore)
6. Louis Riel (Brown)
7. Black Hole (Burns)
8. Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron (Clowes)
9. A Contract with God (Eisner)
10. Quimby the Mouse (Ware)

megladon8
03-06-2009, 03:19 PM
Discovering the works of Guy Dellisle, Chester Brown, Daniel Clowes, Chris Ware, and other similarly non-superhero comics (though very much affected by superhero literature) has been one of the best things to happen to me over the past year.

Ezee E
03-06-2009, 03:27 PM
My library has an incredibly weak selection of graphic novels. But they have an entire section of manga. Blegh.

megladon8
03-06-2009, 03:35 PM
My library has an incredibly weak selection of graphic novels. But they have an entire section of manga. Blegh.


Pretty much every book store or library I go to, this is the situation.

I really don't get it...because I never see anyone in these sections. They must make sales, obviously, or else they wouldn't be there.

I still very heartily recommend Amazon for graphic novels.

Ezee E
03-06-2009, 03:37 PM
Pretty much every book store or library I go to, this is the situation.

I really don't get it...because I never see anyone in these sections. They must make sales, obviously, or else they wouldn't be there.

I still very heartily recommend Amazon for graphic novels.
I wonder if Manga is the new "porn" section. Nobody wants to be caught in it.
Yet, there's gotta be someone there.

D_Davis
03-06-2009, 03:38 PM
I wonder if Manga is the new "porn" section. Nobody wants to be caught in it.
Yet, there's gotta be someone there.

Every time I go to B&N or Borders there a ton of people in the Manga section, all sitting on the floor, cross legged, reading the comic books.

megladon8
03-06-2009, 03:39 PM
I wonder if Manga is the new "porn" section. Nobody wants to be caught in it.
Yet, there's gotta be someone there.


I've often wondered this about the "Erotica" section which - funny - is located right beside the "Manga" section at my local Chapters book store.

Does erotica qualify as porn? Is it as embarassing to be caught there as, say, looking at full-on titty mags?

Ezee E
03-06-2009, 03:41 PM
Every time I go to B&N or Borders there a ton of people in the Manga section, all sitting on the floor, cross legged, reading the comic books.
Bizarro. At my Borders, it's a wasteland.

Kurosawa Fan
03-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Yeah, I can't say there are many people in the manga section of my B&N either. And they also have a terrible selection when it comes to graphic novels. Nearly worthless, which always discourages me from buying them.

number8
03-06-2009, 06:07 PM
Every time I go to B&N or Borders there a ton of people in the Manga section, all sitting on the floor, cross legged, reading the comic books.

Same. It's the American comics section that's barren.

D_Davis
03-06-2009, 06:10 PM
Same. It's the American comics section that's barren.

I wonder if this has anything to do with us living in Seattle and San Fran?

D_Davis
03-06-2009, 06:11 PM
It makes me wish these stores had manga sections when I was in high school, because there are always cute girls in them now.

Raiders
03-06-2009, 06:29 PM
Fax from Sarajevo

Speaking of which, has anyone read Kubert's Yossel? It was the book I was going for when I decided to grab the one above.

Ezee E
03-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Same. It's the American comics section that's barren.
American comics are pushed off to a spinning fixture in the far corner of the store.

Acapelli
03-09-2009, 12:48 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with us living in Seattle and San Fran?
the borders i go to in northern new jersey is the same. bunch of kids reading manga, american comics section is nearly empty

number8
03-09-2009, 02:39 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with us living in Seattle and San Fran?

I dunno. We do have a large Asian population, although half of the kids I see reading manga at Borders are white.