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Melville
12-23-2009, 03:27 AM
Okay, I'm going to say a lot of junk in here, but there are some pretty pictures to compensate, so bear with me.

I watched this early Capra film earlier today. And I must say, based on what little I've seen, I think it is one of the finest films of the '30s. It revolves around the same themes that run through most of Capra's work (that I've seen, at least): the existential and ethical foundations of social structure. The plot consists of a love affair of sorts between a Chinese general and a missionary's soon-to-be-wife. They see one another as exotic and unfathomable, and they are attracted to one another because of that. They live their lives through two very different codes of ethics and general perspectives: in brief, the Chinese man views life through a lens of pragmatism and personal honor, while the American woman views it through one of "high ideals". Over the course of the film, the confrontation between the views leads both to crumble. Each of the lovers is overcome by the other. In trying to bridge the gap between them, they end up falling into it. Of course, the whole things is rather racist toward Chinese people, but I don't think that really affects the underlying ideas, and I find those ideas fascinating both on their own and in relation to the rest of Capra's oeuvre.

But instead of writing about that, I'm going to focus on visuals. A conversation I recently had with Qrazy made me focus on the film's formal approach more than I normally would have. And I found it to be superb. I've seen very few (maybe 60 or 70) films from the 1930s, so anything I say about the era is wildly speculative. But it seems to me that Capra was one of the most formally invigorating directors of the time. Hawks and Von Sternberg are the only others who come to mind as being on the same level as him. In a time when so many American films looked far too much like filmed plays, Capra was shooting for maximum involvement: getting objects right up in the camera's face; blocking and shooting to emphasize the depth and richness of the space of a scene, with the camera exploring multiple planes of people and objects; mixing things up by using more than one visual style; getting rid of dissolves and needless visual exposition; and letting dialogue breathe and overlap naturally. Capra's style strikes me as much more dynamic and engaging than that of most other films of the time.

I'm confident that many people will disagree with that assessment, and I really don't have the requisite knowledge to properly back it up. But given my closer-than-usual observation of this particular film's style, I thought I might as well go into some detail in my praise of it. So, here follows a description of at least some aspects that I thought worked like gangbusters.
Everything I say might be horribly obvious...but I'm going to say it anyway. First off, the film is filled with gorgeous shots, typically characterized by shimmering or glowing lighting. Here are some prime examples:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen12.png
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen13.png
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen14.png
But it's more specific techniques that interest me.

In the film's first two scenes, Capra uses two starkly differing visual schemes to immediately and viscerally convey two states: one associated with the well-understood, homely state of being in one's own cultural milieu; and the other associated with an unknown, exotic state of being in an alien milieu. The first scene begins with wide shots of the streets of Shanghai in chaos. It then cuts to a shot looking out through the doorway of a house, showing well-to-do Westerners coming in off the street:http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen1.png
Next, it cuts to a shot from the same angle but further back in the hallway:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen2.png
In this shot, the space of the hallway is divided by two well-defined planes. Combined with the previous shot, it gives us the sense of a very orderly, organized, well-understood space. The people enter in single file, folding their umbrellas as they do so, are greeted, and then proceed to the next segment of space, where they doff their coats. This sense of a well-organized space in which everybody moves in well-understood ways is emphasized throughout the scene, in shots such as the following:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen3.png
As the scene draws to a close, a missionary relates a tale of how he told a group of Mongolians the story of Christ's crucifixion. He was pleased to find them keenly interested. But the Mongolians did not take his intended message from the story: instead, the next day they crucified their own prisoners. As a segue into the next scene, rather than using a simple cut or dissolve, Capra rapidly whirls the camera 180 degrees, beginning on the missionary and ending on this:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen4.png
The man's face is inscrutable, and that inscrutability drives home the point of the missionary's tale.

The following scene takes place back in the streets. Out there, the clearly defined space is gone. Instead, there is only a hazy mass of motion:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen6.png
The visuals take on an extremely gauzy texture, contrasting with the relatively sharp focus of the preceding scene. In addition, everything seems to be aglow and sparkling:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen5.png
There is a sense of the unknown in the gauze, of the uncanny in the sparkles. They evoke a feeling of uncertainty and the exoticity: anything can happen here, and everything is deeply strange.

We then cut back to the house, where again, the space is clearly organized:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen7.png
In this case, the space is divide between Chinese people in the foreground and Westerners in the background, with the hostess navigating the space in between. The next shot proceeds with the same strong slicing of space, and it's very striking regardless of its role in that overall visual scheme:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen8.png

Despite their sense of definite spatial organization, the scenes inside the house never feel cold or rigid. In the above shot, the bodies are constantly moving, and people frequently pass immediately in front of the camera, ensuring that the space feels alive despite its organization; the organization is organic rather than mechanical, in a way.

In a later scene, the gauzy, shimmering textures of the streets are again contrasted with the interior of a house. This time it's an orphanage barely weathering the external chaos. Now the visual scheme changes again, to high contrasts and foreboding physical obstructions, providing a sense of desolate desperation:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen8b.png
Outside on the streets, in a beautiful shot, the gauze renders hurled torches as amorphous glowing balls:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen8c.png
(It looks better in motion.)

These aspects of the film's style are the most striking, but there are plenty of details to admire. Frequently, Capra (or his DP) frames his shots with diegetic materials:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen9.png
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen10.png
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen10b.png
These shots create a sense of a full, rich space, and I find them quite appealing. The storytelling in each shot is also very strong. Consider the following shot, for example:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff317/FaulknerFan/Yen11.png
The woman's figure is mostly visible, and her face is central, such that the viewer focuses on her actions and on trying to read her thoughts on her face. But the figure at the left is imposing, hovering over the woman, providing a constant sense of unease, always lingering, almost lurking there as we focus on the woman's face. The shot comes shortly after the woman as a dream that reveals both her xenophobic distrust and her erotic fixation on the man. And the shot works off our knowledge of that dream, ensuring that we view the woman's pensive face in terms of it, and loading the man's
hovering presence with its meanings.

So, anyway, I really liked this movie.

Philosophe_rouge
12-23-2009, 03:41 AM
I approve

Melville
12-23-2009, 04:12 AM
I approve
Do you have thoughts on the film written down anywhere? Despite spending all my time talking about the visuals, I find the thematics and characters quite interesting (though the themes have been dealt with more deeply in things like A Passage to India and Season of Migration to the North). Even the white guy's phony Chinese accent is oddly compelling.

Philosophe_rouge
12-23-2009, 05:33 AM
Do you have thoughts on the film written down anywhere? Despite spending all my time talking about the visuals, I find the thematics and characters quite interesting (though the themes have been dealt with more deeply in things like A Passage to India and Season of Migration to the North). Even the white guy's phony Chinese accent is oddly compelling.

I actually don't, but I've read about it, because I was doing a project on the star system and was discussing Stanwyck. The film's production and reception is fairly interesting, it was quite obviously controversial, and the only way they could even get the film made was to cast the white actor in the Chinese role because audiences were already so dead-set agaist inter-racial romance. If you put a white man in make-up, the audience will know deep down it is a relationship between two white characters and therefore acceptable. The film was still boycotted because of it's content, and performed rather poorly at the box-office.

As for the film itself, what I find most interesting is the "romance" between Stanwyck and General Yen. First, her dream sequence, which is the only moment their "affair" is consummated. It seems to hang on what proceeds it, and though at once disgusted, it quite obviously turns her on as well. Is she attracted to his exoticism? His power? It seems to be something more, though perhaps on a level of pure lust, those play a rather significant role. It seems she is able to form a bond with him through common imperfections, and though I think his moral actions are far more dubious, there is a kind of beauty in their respective weaknesses. Her appreciation for him works on a deeper level of someone who is convicted and passionate in spite of their faults, is able to see a human commonality that transcends weakness. The idea of the transformative effects an individual can have on society, as well as on other individuals becomes crucial to their relationship and the eventual outcome of their encounter.

Qrazy
12-23-2009, 08:19 AM
But instead of writing about that, I'm going to focus on visuals. A conversation I recently had with Qrazy made me focus on the film's formal approach more than I normally would have. And I found it to be superb. I've seen very few (maybe 60 or 70) films from the 1930s, so anything I say about the era is wildly speculative. But it seems to me that Capra was one of the most formally invigorating directors of the time. Hawks and Von Sternberg are the only others who come to mind as being on the same level as him. In a time when so many American films looked far too much like filmed plays, Capra was shooting for maximum involvement: getting objects right up in the camera's face; blocking and shooting to emphasize the depth and richness of the space of a scene, with the camera exploring multiple planes of people and objects; mixing things up by using more than one visual style; getting rid of dissolves and needless visual exposition; and letting dialogue breathe and overlap naturally. Capra's style strikes me as much more dynamic and engaging than that of most other films of the time.


Nice write up, but I'll see the film first before I read it through in depth. Based on those stills the lighting seems relatively compelling enough but I'm still not swayed by his use of composition (for the most part). Still I'd have to see them in motion to pass any judgment.

In relation to your bolded 30's directors comment here's a list (far from complete) of those I find more visually compelling (based on the Capra I've seen so far and leaving out Hawks and Sternberg).

Milestone
Dovzhenko
Eisenstein
Chaplin
Keaton
Lang
Murnau
Dreyer
Renoir
Lubitsch
Vigo
Hitchcock
Curtiz
Ford
Fleming
Cocteau

Raiders
12-23-2009, 01:40 PM
I'm very interested to see this one. I would never say Capra wasn't a rather expert director, at least inasmuch as his films often looked great and moved well, but he just chose a lot of corny, half-baked material that doesn't appeal to me.

Qrazy
12-23-2009, 01:42 PM
I'm very interested to see this one. I would never say Capra wasn't a rather expert director, at least inasmuch as his films often looked great and moved well, but he just chose a lot of corny, half-baked material that doesn't appeal to me.

Any plans to see The Defiant Ones anytime soon? I'm still interested to know if you'd end up liking it.

Melville
12-23-2009, 02:27 PM
Milestone
Dovzhenko
Eisenstein
Chaplin
Keaton
Lang
Murnau
Dreyer
Renoir
Lubitsch
Vigo
Hitchcock
Curtiz
Ford
Fleming
Cocteau
Hm. I disagree with most of those, especially Chaplin, Curtiz, Ford, and Milestone (though I've only seen All Quiet on the Western Front, and many years ago). I don't think Eisenstein or Hitchcock were doing their most visually interesting work in the 30s. I probably agree with you re. Dreyer and maybe Renoir. And I agree that striking compositions are not Capra's strength. It's his sense of engagement with, and creation of, the space of a scene that I most like, though he also makes excellent use of lighting and other techniques, and his editing is very strong (though his pioneering use of jump cuts occasionally just looks awkward).


I'm very interested to see this one. I would never say Capra wasn't a rather expert director, at least inasmuch as his films often looked great and moved well, but he just chose a lot of corny, half-baked material that doesn't appeal to me.
Which material do you consider half-baked? I guess I can agree with that regarding Mr. Deeds, since its presentation of relationship between the individual and the mass seemed like a test run for It's a Wonderful Life. But I really haven't seen that many of his films.

It's a Wonderful Life - 10
The Bitter Tea of General Yen - 9
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington - 9
Mr. Deeds goes to Town - 8
It Happened One Night - 6 (needs a rewatch)
Arsenic and Old Lace - 2

Raiders
12-23-2009, 02:48 PM
Which material do you consider half-baked? I guess I can agree with that regarding Mr. Deeds, since its presentation of relationship between the individual and the mass seemed like a test run for It's a Wonderful Life. But I really haven't seen that many of his films.

Mr. Deeds yes, and also though I realize that the execution of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is superb, and I like the film a lot, but the material itself strikes me as very naive and simplistic tale that makes a grand moral argument, and its sincerity cannot be doubted, but 70-some years after the fact still strikes me as unconvincing in its understanding of political process. For a much more nuanced take on Congress and its ebb-and-flow, see Preminger's Advise and Consent.

You haven't yet seen You Can't Take it With You and I would recommend keeping it that way. I have read defenses of Capra's democratic ideals and his imbuing his films with his views on the American dream and the way our society manipulated this dream. It's evident in some of his work for sure, but I think much of his work stayed squarely in the middle, afraid of offending or really capturing what it is he felt and keeping much of his work in a kind of corny, simple state-of-mind, more eager to blankly entertain than to really engage.

Qrazy
12-23-2009, 03:07 PM
Hm. I disagree with most of those, especially Chaplin, Curtiz, Ford, and Milestone (though I've only seen All Quiet on the Western Front, and many years ago). I don't think Eisenstein or Hitchcock were doing their most visually interesting work in the 30s. I probably agree with you re. Dreyer and maybe Renoir. And I agree that striking compositions are not Capra's strength. It's his sense of engagement with, and creation of, the space of a scene that I most like, though he also makes excellent use of lighting and other techniques, and his editing is very strong (though his pioneering use of jump cuts occasionally just looks awkward).


In these comparisons I only have Deeds and It Happened One Night in mind really since it's been a long time for It's a Wonderful Life and You Can't Take it With You. Perhaps I'd reevaluate him after General Yen.

The best thing about Ford is his visuals and pacing. I'm not enthusiastic about much else about his work. You're severely underrating Curtiz's visual sensibilities, but most people seem to. As for Chaplin his blocking is impeccable. The movement of objects and characters in relation to the camera at the end of City Lights is still remarkable today.

Milestone I don't care that much about but at the very least I do think I preferred All Quiet on the Western Front to Deeds visually.

Melville
12-23-2009, 03:09 PM
Mr. Deeds yes, and also though I realize that the execution of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is superb, and I like the film a lot, but the material itself strikes me as very naive and simplistic tale that makes a grand moral argument, and its sincerity cannot be doubted, but 70-some years after the fact still strikes me as unconvincing in its understanding of political process. For a much more nuanced take on Congress and its ebb-and-flow, see Preminger's Advise and Consent.
As a depiction of the concrete goings-on in Congress, I agree that Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is simplistic. But I think as a forceful, metaphorical depiction of the potential disconnection between the ideals that form the metaphysical foundation of our social being and the practical workings of the head of that being, it is very interesting. I suppose that I approach Capra's films from a certain philosophical standpoint that makes them work for me.

Melville
12-23-2009, 03:13 PM
The best thing about Ford is his visuals and pacing.
I find the visuals and pacing fairly dull in most of his films (the lighting in The Grapes of Wrath being a major exception), but I realize now that I haven't seen a single film of his from the 30s, so I have no basis for judgment there.

Qrazy
12-23-2009, 03:23 PM
I find the visuals and pacing fairly dull in most of his films (the lighting in The Grapes of Wrath being a major exception), but I realize now that I haven't seen a single film of his from the 30s, so I have no basis for judgment there.

Here are some shots from Stagecoach.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/buttzilla/folder2/john%20ford/JohnFord-Stagecoach1939avi_00555529.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/buttzilla/folder2/john%20ford/JohnFord-Stagecoach1939avi_00044561.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/buttzilla/folder2/john%20ford/JohnFord-Stagecoach1939avi_00300850.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/buttzilla/folder2/john%20ford/JohnFord-Stagecoach1939avi_00284530.jpg

Melville
12-23-2009, 03:51 PM
The first shot looks like it could be good in motion, though it's unfortunately a visual cliche by now. The second shot has some really nice use of strong light and intersecting lines and planes. The third shot is great. Don't care for the fourth one. I'll probably get around to seeing that movie eventually.

Qrazy
12-23-2009, 04:14 PM
I find the visuals and pacing fairly dull in most of his films (the lighting in The Grapes of Wrath being a major exception), but I realize now that I haven't seen a single film of his from the 30s, so I have no basis for judgment there.

Although actually I kind of agree that his dramatic pacing can be rather dull at times. I only meant his editorial shot to shot pacing is compelling.

B-side
12-24-2009, 04:02 PM
The screenshots have me sold. I'll read your write-up after I've seen it.

Philosophe_rouge
12-24-2009, 05:28 PM
I love John Ford

B-side
07-05-2011, 11:14 AM
I find the visuals and pacing fairly dull in most of his films (the lighting in The Grapes of Wrath being a major exception), but I realize now that I haven't seen a single film of his from the 30s, so I have no basis for judgment there.

What all have you seen of his? Because Ford is typically very visually adept. And I don't mean in the simplistic "ooh, that looks pretty" sense. I mostly speak of his outdoor photography, though he's hardly poor when it comes to indoor shots (his melancholy use of doorways stick out immediately).

A few particularly striking shots that utilize the geometry of the landscape well:

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-13-23h25m09s200_800x450.png
The Searchers
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-19-05h00m35s52_400x300.jpg
The Grapes of Wrath
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-16-05h47m01s136_400x300.jpg
The Fugitive
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-09-22h58m08s149_400x300.jpg
Rio Grande (I believe)
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-01-09h52m01s219_400x300.png
Fort Apache

I could go on, but I'll switch to some of his photography of the natives which perfectly emphasizes their familiarity with the land and its usefulness in combat, as well as demonstrating a certain respect for that connection by elevating them in the space of the frame:

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-02-09h17m37s162_400x300.png
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-01-09h51m53s137_400x300.png

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-01-09h24m11s158_400x300.png
Fort Apache

Otherwise, here are a few strikingly expressionistic shots that use shadows well:

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-22-15h38m47s62_400x300.jpg
The Prisoner of Shark Island
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-16-05h33m26s213_400x300.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-16-05h37m21s7_400x300.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-16-06h20m31s28_400x300.jpg
The Fugitive
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-10-23h26m24s53_400x300.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-11-00h39m59s150_400x300.jpg
The Long Voyage Home
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-03-08h32m15s129_640x368.jpg
Sergeant Rutledge
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-03-02-08h25m50s89_400x300.png
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon

B-side
07-05-2011, 11:27 AM
I've also seen a few Curtiz films recently, and he seems to be pretty good on the visual front as well, evidenced partially here in some shots from Flamingo Road:

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-16h05m26s152_400x300.jpg
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-16h06m42s165_400x300.jpg
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-16h52m03s249_400x300.jpg
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-17h21m56s12_400x300.jpg
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-17h46m55s154_400x300.jpg
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-04-09-17h48m36s137_400x300.jpg

Melville
07-05-2011, 03:20 PM
What all have you seen of his?
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Searchers, My Darling Clementine, The Grapes of Wrath, and Stagecoach. Only seen Casablanca and Angels with Dirty Faces from Curtiz, but I like the ornateness of the first four shots you posted. (The other two are good too, but in a more standard expressionistic-lighting, forceful-geometry way.)

D_Davis
07-05-2011, 03:31 PM
I love the shots in the original post - looks amazing. Definitely want to check it out. I love great sound stages - one of the reasons why I love the Shaw Brothers films so much. A lot of those shots reminded me of many Shaw Brothers films, and I was especially reminded of Human Skin Lanterns.

B-side
07-06-2011, 03:15 AM
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Searchers, My Darling Clementine, The Grapes of Wrath, and Stagecoach. Only seen Casablanca and Angels with Dirty Faces from Curtiz, but I like the ornateness of the first four shots you posted. (The other two are good too, but in a more standard expressionistic-lighting, forceful-geometry way.)

Hm. I'd definitely recommend you give The Fugitive a go of Ford's work. Seems more like your type of thing. Plus, as you can see in the shots above, it's excellent on the visual front. Very melancholy and moody.