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View Full Version : Match Cut Directors Consensus - Alejandro Jodorowsky


dreamdead
12-20-2009, 01:40 PM
Welcome to a world of mysterious happenings and iconic imagery subverted, where '70s expressionism ruled. Let's see them ratings of Alejandro Jodorowsky's filmic vision.

http://www.nndb.com/people/290/000118933/JODOROWSKY.jpg

Jodorowsky will keep playing peek-a-boo until you do.
Melville
12-20-2009, 01:51 PM
El Topo - 1
Santa Sangre - 2
B-side
12-20-2009, 01:52 PM
One of my favorites.

La Cravate- 8
Fando y Lis- 9.5
El Topo- 8.5
The Holy Mountain- 9
Santa Sangre- 9.5
B-side
12-20-2009, 01:52 PM
El Topo - 1
Santa Sangre - 2

what is this I don't even
Mysterious Dude
12-20-2009, 02:15 PM
El Topo - 2
Boner M
12-20-2009, 02:27 PM
Fando y Lis - 3
El Topo - 7
The Holy Mountain - 9
Ezee E
12-20-2009, 03:04 PM
El Topo - 9.5
The Holy Mountain - 4
Santa Sangre - 9
Yxklyx
12-20-2009, 03:20 PM
Fando y Lis - 7
El Topo - 7
The Holy Mountain - 9
Spinal
12-20-2009, 05:28 PM
La cravate - 7
Fando and Lis - 7.5
El topo - 8.5
The Holy Mountain - 10
Santa sangre - 10
BuffaloWilder
12-20-2009, 06:13 PM
Anybody who gives El Topo below at least a seven is going to get - payne.
Spaceman Spiff
12-20-2009, 06:16 PM
El Topo - 1
Santa Sangre - 2

Whaaaaaat...

El Topo - 7.5
The Holy Mountain - 9.0
Santa Sangre - 8.5
Kurious Jorge v3.1
12-20-2009, 06:24 PM
La Cravate - 5
Fando y Lis - 7.5
El Topo - 10
Holy Mountain - 10
Santa Sangre - 4
Melville
12-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Whaaaaaat...
To quote myself,

I find his brand of surrealism obnoxiously glib and filled with superficial symbolism. The psychology in Santa Sangre struck me as inane. Pretty much everything about El Topo irritated me.
I really hated those two movies.
Spaceman Spiff
12-20-2009, 06:40 PM
Jodorowsky isn't nearly as serious as you're making him out to be. I gather from the man that he's really mucking about more than having a clear symbolic purpose. His brand of surrealism comes across as clear and vivid to me, especially in the Holy Mountain which is much more focused than El Topo, for instance.
Melville
12-20-2009, 07:06 PM
Jodorowsky isn't nearly as serious as you're making him out to be. I gather from the man that he's really mucking about more than having a clear symbolic purpose. His brand of surrealism comes across as clear and vivid to me, especially in the Holy Mountain which is much more focused than El Topo, for instance.
I didn't mean to make him out to be serious—that's why I called him glib. The lack of seriousness is one of my problems with El Topo. Much of it felt like it was just mucking around with symbols to make very lame jokes. The clearness of his symbolism is another problem that I have with it: I want surrealism to probe deep recesses of irrationality and nightmare logic. I want it to invoke a primal response to something ineffable. Everything in El Topo felt contrived and as I said, superficial: it was just working on the surface of symbols, putting them together in purposely incongruous and silly ways, and in doing so, accomplishing nothing that I had any interest in.
Raiders
12-20-2009, 07:16 PM
Fando and Lis (1968) 7.5
El Topo (1970) 8.0
The Holy Mountain (1973) 9.5
Santa Sangre (1989) 9.0
Qrazy
12-20-2009, 07:42 PM
La Cravate - 6.5
Fando y Lis - 7.5
El Topo - 8.5
The Holy Mountain - 8
Santa Sangre - 6
The Rainbow Thief - 4.5
Derek
12-20-2009, 07:58 PM
El Topo - 6.5
The Holy Mountain - 5.0
Qrazy
12-20-2009, 08:15 PM
I didn't mean to make him out to be serious—that's why I called him glib. The lack of seriousness is one of my problems with El Topo. Much of it felt like it was just mucking around with symbols to make very lame jokes. The clearnesse w of his symbolism is another problem that I have with it: I want surrealism to probe deep recesses of irrationality and nightmare logic. I want it to invoke a primal response to something ineffable. Everything in El Topo felt contrived and as I said, superficial: it was just working on the surface of symbols, putting them together in purposely incongruous and silly ways, and in doing so, accomplishing nothing that I had any interest in.

I don't think there's anything incongruous about his use of symbols. It feels rather pointed to me. I think it's more so his entire project (a symbological deconstruction of genre and archetypes) and approach which you dislike, but you do state this, so yeah. I find the music in the opening credit sequence moving (after the objects are buried) as well as the scene with the kid in the church. The latter scene says something about religious fervor in a unique and direct way, such that Jodorowsky is able to employ his symbolic manipulations in a probing manner. I also think he's an innovative formalist who can compose some memorable imagery. Elements of the ending of Matewan are pretty much ripped from El Topo.
megladon8
12-20-2009, 08:17 PM
El Topo - 7.5
The Holy Mountain - 2
Adam
12-20-2009, 08:23 PM
El Topo 6.5
Melville
12-20-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't think there's anything incongruous about his use of symbols.
It's not his use of them that's incongruous, it's his purposely incongruous combinations of them that are (e.g. a gun-slinging Christ figure).
Stay Puft
12-20-2009, 08:34 PM
La Cravate - 8
El Topo - 7.5
The Holy Mountain - 10
Santa Sangre - 7.5
Qrazy
12-20-2009, 08:38 PM
It's not his use of them that's incongruous, it's his purposely incongruous combinations of them that are (e.g. a gun-slinging Christ figure).

Incongruous to me implies an unsuitability to their combination which is where I disagree. In the context in which they are presented they are suitable. I would not disagree with the term discordant.
Melville
12-20-2009, 08:55 PM
Incongruous to me implies an unsuitability to their combination which is where I disagree. In the context in which they are presented they are suitable. I would not disagree with the term discordant.
I'm saying the elements in the combination of symbols are incongruous with one another; you're saying that the combination of symbols is congruous with the film's intent. There's no contradiction there. Replacing "incongruous" and "congruous" with "discordant" and "concordant" in that sentence wouldn't make any difference.
origami_mustache
12-20-2009, 09:15 PM
La Cravate - 4
Fando y Lis - 7
El Topo - 8
The Holy Mountain - 9.5
Qrazy
12-20-2009, 09:19 PM
I'm saying the elements in the combination of symbols are incongruous with one another; you're saying that the combination of symbols is congruous with the film's intent. There's no contradiction there. Replacing "incongruous" and "congruous" with "discordant" and "concordant" in that sentence wouldn't make any difference.

That depends on the definition of incongruous you're using. This is the definition (that if you were using) I would be disagreeing with... "out of keeping or place; inappropriate; unbecoming"... Alternatively this is the definition of discordant I'm using... "Not being in accord; conflicting." So if you say that there is no difference than clearly you are not using the definition I disagree with.

:pritch:
Winston*
12-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Anyone ever read his comic book The Incal? Pretty cool, even though it seems like he's just making it up as he goes along.
Pop Trash
12-20-2009, 09:22 PM
El Topo -7
The Holy Mountain -9

The Holy Mountain is a singular filmic experience. Especially if you see it on the big screen. The images and music did for me what all these peeps seem to be saying Avatar did for them. El Topo I'm not as fond of. It just seems to be a goofier, hippie-dippie version of a Leone flick, but it still has some rad moments.
soitgoes...
12-20-2009, 10:01 PM
El Topo (1970) - 6.0
The Holy Mountain (1973) - 7.0
Melville
12-20-2009, 10:08 PM
That depends on the definition of incongruous you're using. This is the definition (that if you were using) I would be disagreeing with... "out of keeping or place; inappropriate; unbecoming"...
You're killing me, man. Even if you use that definition, if you think that the elements of the gunslinger archetype are in keeping with the meaning of the Christ archetype, then you truly are mad. And of course it would be inappropriate for Christ to start blasting with his six-shooters. Unbecoming, too. Now let us never speak of this again.
Winston*
12-20-2009, 10:15 PM
Six-shooter Christ > Regular Christ
Boner M
12-21-2009, 12:01 AM
Hmm, somehow forgot that I'd seen Santa Sangre too, ages ago...

Santa Sangre - 7
Grouchy
12-21-2009, 12:03 AM
You're killing me, man. Even if you use that definition, if you think that the elements of the gunslinger archetype are in keeping with the meaning of the Christ archetype, then you truly are mad. And of course it would be inappropriate for Christ to start blasting with his six-shooters. Unbecoming, too. Now let us never speak of this again.
You don't understand what he's saying. He's saying that just because something is conflicting (Christ with guns) doesn't mean it's incongrous on the context of the movie.

El Topo - 8
balmakboor
12-21-2009, 01:20 AM
El Topo - 4
The Holy Mountain - 9
Santa Sangre - 6
Melville
12-21-2009, 01:41 AM
You don't understand what he's saying. He's saying that just because something is conflicting (Christ with guns) doesn't mean it's incongrous on the context of the movie.
http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17420.gif
ContinentalOp
12-21-2009, 01:55 AM
El Topo- 5

Not my bag, baby.
BuffaloWilder
12-21-2009, 02:17 AM
Obviously you have never seen Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter, Melville.
Melville
12-21-2009, 02:31 AM
Obviously you have never seen Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter, Melville.
Actually, I have. I thought it was hilarious.
Ivan Drago
12-21-2009, 03:02 AM
El Topo - 8.5

Santa Sangre isn't on Netflix. :frustrated:
BuffaloWilder
12-21-2009, 03:04 AM
Actually, I have. I thought it was hilarious.


I don't see how the Christ-figure concept and the vampire-hunter concept are any less incongruous than what's found in El Topo. So, what's the deal?
B-side
12-21-2009, 03:15 AM
El Topo - 8.5

Santa Sangre isn't on Netflix. :frustrated:

Download it. I can see you being a big fan of it.:)
B-side
12-21-2009, 03:18 AM
Surprised nobody else is nearly as enthusiastic about Fando y Lis as I am.
Melville
12-21-2009, 03:25 AM
I don't see how the Christ-figure concept and the vampire-hunter concept are any less incongruous than what's found in El Topo. So, what's the deal?
Of course they're incongruous. I never said that the incongruity was a problem: I said that Jodorowsky's use of symbols was superficial, relying solely on incongruous and silly mixes of them, thus failing to accomplish anything that I find interesting about surrealism. Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter, on the other hand, uses the incongruous symbols as part of its schlocky, ridiculous charm and hilarious B-movie humor.
B-side
12-21-2009, 03:35 AM
Of course they're incongruous. I never said that the incongruity was a problem: I said that Jodorowsky's use of symbols was superficial, relying solely on incongruous and silly mixes of them, thus failing to accomplish anything that I find interesting about surrealism.

His symbols are a lot more meaningful than slapping a gun in Jesus' hand.
Qrazy
12-21-2009, 04:13 AM
You're killing me, man. Even if you use that definition, if you think that the elements of the gunslinger archetype are in keeping with the meaning of the Christ archetype, then you truly are mad. And of course it would be inappropriate for Christ to start blasting with his six-shooters. Unbecoming, too. Now let us never speak of this again.

I don't feel it to be inappropriate or unbecoming for the character in the film to do the things he does. He is not Christ. Elements of his story are taken from Christ's story. But you're right, this conversation is silly, so I'll let you have the last word.
Melville
12-21-2009, 04:33 AM
I don't feel it to be inappropriate or unbecoming for the character in the film to do the things he does. He is not Christ. Elements of his story are taken from Christ's story. But you're right, this conversation is silly, so I'll let you have the last word.
But didn't you just write the last word? Or are you saying that I should now write the last word? I don't want to write anymore words, but if you're letting me have the last one, then I feel obligated to take it: all I ever said was the the two archetypes that are being combined are incongruous. That should not be a controversial statement; you and Grouchy both agreed with it when you said that the two symbols were discordant/conflicting. The result of the combination is not incongruous with itself or with the world of the film. It was just formed from a combination of incongruous symbols.
BuffaloWilder
12-21-2009, 04:45 AM
...so, what's the problem?
Llopin
12-21-2009, 12:09 PM
What a guy. The other day I saw an interview of him on spanish TV rambling about his literature. Of which I'm not too fond, I might add. Psychomagics meh, Arrabal kicks his ass back and forth.

Fando y Lis - 7
El Topo - 7
The Holy Mountain - 5
Santa Sangre - 6
balmakboor
12-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Dune (as I've imagined it for many years) - 11
B-side
12-21-2009, 12:50 PM
Dune (as I've imagined it for many years) - 11

:D
balmakboor
12-21-2009, 01:02 PM
El Topo - 4

Btw, I should qualify this. I've only seen it once on a pretty crappy VHS dub I got off of Ebay, oh god, over 10 years ago. I've been meaning to give it another chance. But what I saw then actually kinda bored me.
B-side
12-21-2009, 01:04 PM
Btw, I should qualify this. I've only seen it once on a pretty crappy VHS dub I got off of Ebay, oh god, over 10 years ago. I've been meaning to give it another chance. But what I saw then actually kinda bored me.

Dude, you need to see that on DVD. If nothing else, Jodorowsky knew how to compose a shot.
balmakboor
12-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Dude, you need to see that on DVD. If nothing else, Jodorowsky knew how to compose a shot.

I'll get on it.
Qrazy
12-21-2009, 02:23 PM
But didn't you just write the last word? Or are you saying that I should now write the last word? I don't want to write anymore words, but if you're letting me have the last one, then I feel obligated to take it: all I ever said was the the two archetypes that are being combined are incongruous. That should not be a controversial statement; you and Grouchy both agreed with it when you said that the two symbols were discordant/conflicting. The result of the combination is not incongruous with itself or with the world of the film. It was just formed from a combination of incongruous symbols.

This is what I meant.
KK2.0
12-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Fando Y Lis - 7
El Topo - 8.5

I need to watch more from him.




Just for fun:

The Incal (graphic novel with art by Moebius) - 10
I've read that Luc Besson tryed to film this for years, but the project would cost too much and ended up becoming The Fifth Element.
dreamdead
12-22-2009, 02:33 AM
El Topo - 4
The Holy Mountain - 7

I'm with Melville on Jodorowsky's brand of cinema. It feels far too monotonous in its symbolism for me to take it very seriously. I like some of the cartoony imagery, but the overextension of grotesque ideas seems far too reactionary and lacking of meaning. Not my style of cinema.
Ivan Drago
12-22-2009, 02:46 AM
Download it. I can see you being a big fan of it.:)

I would but I don't want to risk getting arrested.
Derek
12-22-2009, 03:08 AM
I would but I don't want to risk getting arrested.

Lord knows the studios are on the lookout for people trying to get their hands on obscure, unreleased Mexican art films about an armless woman and a serial killer. But hey, some of us like living on the edge.
B-side
12-22-2009, 05:35 AM
Lord knows the studios are on the lookout for people trying to get their hands on obscure, unreleased Mexican art films about an armless woman and a serial killer. But hey, some of us like living on the edge.

:lol:

Hell, I'm sure Jodorowsky wouldn't mind either.
dreamdead
12-28-2009, 02:22 AM
RESULTS:
Holy Mountain - 7.7647 (17)
Fando y Lis - 7.0556 (9)
Santa Sangre - 7.0417 (12)
El Topo - 6.8541 (24)
La Cravate - 6.4167 (6)
= 7.0266

Did not Qualify:
Rainbow Thief - 4.5 (1)

People who do not especially respond to his cinema: Melville, Antoine,
People who respond well to Jodorowsky but have only seen one film: Grouchy
Meaningless Hater Award: Melville
Meaningless Completist Award: Qrazy
Qrazy
12-28-2009, 06:05 AM
Aww why are some awards just completist but this one's meaningless? *tear*
Grouchy
12-28-2009, 06:30 AM
People who respond well to Jodorowsky but have only seen one film: Grouchy
True, and this situation should change.

For what it's worth, though, The Meta-Barons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabarons) is excellent comics. Everyone should read that insanity.

http://www.sci-fi-o-rama.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/metabarons_01.jpg
Spinal
12-28-2009, 03:51 PM
I think you should have to see Tusk to get a completist award.
Qrazy
12-28-2009, 04:33 PM
I think you should have to see Tusk to get a completist award.

I'm working on it.
Spinal
12-28-2009, 04:52 PM
I'm working on it.

There's a video store in Portland that has a copy, but it has no English subtitles.
Qrazy
12-28-2009, 04:56 PM
There's a video store in Portland that has a copy, but it has no English subtitles.

The interwebs has subtitles I think.
B-side
12-28-2009, 05:23 PM
The interwebs has subtitles I think.

Yeah, the copy on KG has subs. Terrible video quality on it, though.
Qrazy
12-28-2009, 06:28 PM
Yeah, the copy on KG has subs. Terrible video quality on it, though.

Yeah that and the notion that it's probably his worst film have deterred me from wasting precious ratio on it.