Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[number8]

So this is happening at Comic-Con. Which means I've got less than 2 weeks to finish up so I know what people will be talking about.


Buffy Turns 20: Celebrating 20 Years of Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Sunday July 15, 2012 2:15pm - 3:15pm @ Indigo Ballroom, Hilton San Diego Bayfront

Once upon a time, Buffy Summers became the Slayer, the Chosen One who proved a young heroine could battle the forces of darkness instead of playing damsel in distress. Stars from the hit TV series Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Nicholas Brendon, Clare Kramer) join forces with Dark Horse editor Scott Allie, writer/producer Jane Espenson, illustrator Georges Jentry, and the original Buffy herself (Kristy Swanson, star of the 1992 motion picture), not to mention a surprise guest or two, to celebrate 20 years of slayage.

[number8]

:lol: Leave it to Shawn Ryan to write an episode about trying to find a stolen car in the hood and running afoul of a demon who runs a chop shop.

Apparently Ryan only joined the writing staff for this season before bouncing to create The Shield at the end of it.

[Lucky]

The second episode of the second season of Angel is actually really good. It really impressed me until the end.

[number8]

"Fool for Love"... Wow.

Okay, I thought I could do this whole back and forth thing, but Buffy season 5 is on a goddamn roll and Angel is boring me. I'm just gonna go ahead and finish season 5 by itself.

[Fezzik]

"Fool for Love"... Wow.



That's the episode where Spike became my favorite character on the show.

[Mara]

"Fool for Love"... Wow.

Okay, I thought I could do this whole back and forth thing, but Buffy season 5 is on a goddamn roll and Angel is boring me. I'm just gonna go ahead and finish season 5 by itself.

Buffy season 5 is pretty close to perfect. I don't blame you a bit.

[number8]

"Civilians? But we're talking about children."
"We're talking about two very powerful witches and a thousand year old ex-demon."
"WILLOW'S A DEMON? OH MAN!"
"What about the boy? He's nothing."
"The boy has clocked more field time than all of you combined. He's part of the unit."

This whole scene is yes.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLsmYse0MCw/SSjzVwnV9HI/AAAAAAAAAVA/ksXftq0Pd04/s400/obama+cry.jpg

[Mara]

"I'M FAIRLY CERTAIN I SAID NO INTERRUPTIONS."

I absolutely love the cross-cutting interview scenes from that one, too.

[number8]

Well, I was gonna be snarky about The Bronze suddenly doubling in size, but then a Sunnydale train station suddenly appeared.

[Mara]

Well, I was gonna be snarky about The Bronze suddenly doubling in size, but then a Sunnydale train station suddenly appeared.

Just wait until they get an airport.

[number8]

Yes, I got through The Body. Give me time before you ask me to post a response, Mara, GEEZ. I NEED TIME.

[Mara]

Yes, I got through The Body. Give me time before you ask me to post a response, Mara, GEEZ. I NEED TIME.

We're here for you.

I'm serious. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone watching "The Body."

[number8]

I'm not surprised that this didn't get any Emmy's, it being smack dab in the fifth season of a show that never warranted mainstream attention before, but it doesn't seem fair, does it? How is it that people weren't giving Whedon feature film offers after that episode? I really can't give Marvel Studios enough credit for gambling in his corner with The Avengers the way they did.

Watching the episodes that Whedon write and direct, you get the sense that he could've had the film career of someone like Alan Ball if he wasn't so dedicated to genre and geek tropes, and it just shows you what terrible bias there is towards sci-fi/fantasy in Hollywood. Even when they're big moneymakers, they rarely get the analysis they deserve just because people can't look past campy premises.

On that note, Much Ado About Nothing is going to be grrrrrreeeat.

[Raiders]

The Body is a remarkable episode, but being the son of a part-time paramedic, I have always been frustrated that they leave her with "the body" at the beginning. That would never happen, partly for humanitarian reasons, partly because it is not their job to call a death and lastly because the coroner and police (who would have come also) need to verify no foul play suspected and Buffy would not have been left at the scene like that.

[amberlita]

I'm not surprised that this didn't get any Emmy's, it being smack dab in the fifth season of a show that never warranted mainstream attention before, but it doesn't seem fair, does it? How is it that people weren't giving Whedon feature film offers after that episode? I really can't give Marvel Studios enough credit for gambling in his corner with The Avengers the way they did.

Watching the episodes that Whedon write and direct, you get the sense that he could've had the film career of someone like Alan Ball if he wasn't so dedicated to genre and geek tropes, and it just shows you what terrible bias there is towards sci-fi/fantasy in Hollywood. Even when they're big moneymakers, they rarely get the analysis they deserve just because people can't look past campy premises.

On that note, Much Ado About Nothing is going to be grrrrrreeeat.

Alan Ball has a film career?

[Lucky]

I had to watch this again tonight. I still think that muting the scene with Buffy and Dawn at the school was the right move, but I've always wondered what the dialogue was there. Also, Xander's Avengers reference made me chuckle. If Joss only knew. The shot where Buffy opens the backdoor is my favorite shot in the whole ep, speaks volumes.

[Irish]

I'm not surprised that this didn't get any Emmy's, it being smack dab in the fifth season of a show that never warranted mainstream attention before, but it doesn't seem fair, does it? How is it that people weren't giving Whedon feature film offers after that episode? I really can't give Marvel Studios enough credit for gambling in his corner with The Avengers the way they did.

Whedon was on a 5th rate network that lost upwards of $50 million every year it was in existence. And even there, Buffy and Angel were both outdone by Charmed, which pulled consistently better ratings and lasted longer.

The Avengers wasn't much of a gamble. With Serenity, Whedon already demonstrated that he could mount an ensemble cast in an F/X laden story. His Wonder Woman script and comic book following at Marvel demonstrated he understood these kind of charcters and already knew the universe.

Given his repeated trouble to find professional footing, they could probably get him cheap and he'd have no problem with half a dozen producers riding his ass on a daily basis (as they undoubtedly would, given the movie's scope and budget).

Constrast that to Iron Man, where Faveau was hired despite his two widest movies being Elf and Made. Whedon was much less a gamble on the Avengers than Favreau was there, even though arguably Iron Man was just as important, if not more important, to evolution of the Marvel movie universe.


It just shows you what terrible bias there is towards sci-fi/fantasy in Hollywood.

While I understand you're a superfan, you can't be this delusional. Hollywood has bent over backwards in the last ten years to pander to the geek audience. There were close to a dozen comic book related movies in 2010 or 2011 alone. That's not counting big movies with fantasy elements like Pirates of the Carribean and all the sequels.

While I agree a bias exists when it comes to awards (sci fi, fantasy, and comedies tend to be taken less seriously than straight drama), producers don't throw $250 million budgets towards something they're biased against, as they did with John Carter.

[Lucky]

I don't know where you're pulling your ratings info, but Buffy and Charmed were always neck and neck in ratings while on the WB together. They tied for second place behind 7th Heaven overall, except for Charmed S3/Buffy S5 when Charmed got 2nd place to itself. Year following that Buffy had stronger ratings than Charmed when in moved to the UPN. It wouldn't be very accurate to say that either show performed better than the other in ratings, unless you discuss specific years.

Also, you speak as if Buffy was canceled. Buffy ending was a creative decision lead by Whedon and Gellar. Charmed's one year longer lifespan shouldn't be considered a victory over that.

[Irish]

I don't know where you're pulling your ratings info, but Buffy and Charmed were always neck and neck in ratings while on the WB together. They tied for second place behind 7th Heaven overall, except for Charmed S3/Buffy S5 when Charmed got 2nd place to itself. Year following that Buffy had stronger ratings than Charmed when in moved to the UPN. It wouldn't be very accurate to say that either show performed better than the other in ratings, unless you discuss specific years.

I didn't look it up, just remembered from way back when. But given your post, I looked it up.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_(TV_s eries)#U.S._ratings

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charmed#American_ratings

Charmed outperformed Buffy every year they were on the air at the same time, save one (when Buffy moved to UPN).

I'm not saying Charmed was the better show (it was horrid, and it's popularity continues to mystify me to this day), but 8 wondering why Whedon didn't get feature jobs off of Buffy doesn't make much sense when you consider the network and his closest competition.


Also, you speak as if Buffy was canceled. Buffy ending was a creative decision lead by Whedon and Gellar. Charmed's one year longer lifespan shouldn't be considered a victory over that.

Buffy was cancelled. Twice. I don't think that's really the show's fault. Whedon was elsewhere, Gellar was getting long in the tooth, and everybody probably wanted more money. I'm a bit cynical about it, because there are no creative differences in LA. There's getting your quote or not, and everything else is secondary.

[Raiders]

Buffy was cancelled. Twice. I don't think that's really the show's fault. Whedon was elsewhere, Gellar was getting long in the tooth, and everybody probably wanted more money. I'm a bit cynical about it, because there are no creative differences in LA. There's getting your quote or not, and everything else is secondary.

It was no secret, since she said it publicly, that Gellar didn't want to do an eighth season and Whedon and co. decided to end the series rather than spin it off or some such. Obviously, if it was #1 rated on all of TV and the money was there to be thrown at Gellar, it would have likely stayed around. But it was not simply UPN pulling the plug, unless you just want to make up theories, then fine.

Also, "technically" speaking, it wasn't cancelled after S5 either, it had already been dealt to UPN before any such announcement. It was assumed that the WB wouldn't have kept it for a sixth season if the move had not happened however.

[number8]

Boy, you tend to take a lot of the things I say way too literally than I ever intend them to, and I have to remind myself that you're sincere to not take offense at the condescension. I meant it in a "the meticulous direction in the episode was so exceptionally good and artful that I think people who see that episode should be throwing money at Whedon to make a feature film" way. I know perfectly well why Joss "Moderate Success" Whedon is not a big go-to guy all these years. Everyone does. It's weird how discussions of quality consistently veer into discussions of business when you jump into the fray.

Same goes with the Hollywood bias. I know there've been a surge of sci-fi/fantasy/superhero blockbusters over the past 10 years. Who the hell wouldn't notice that? I mentioned that they're considered moneymakers, but as you said, they're taken less seriously than straight dramas, and that's the only thing I'm lamenting. Plenty of genre output offer just as much filmmaking accomplishment and dramatic satisfaction, but they're very rarely seen as equally important, unless the film hammers in an annoyingly obvious allegory (coughdistrict9cough).

[Irish]

Also, "technically" speaking, it wasn't cancelled after S5 either, it had already been dealt to UPN before any such announcement. It was assumed that the WB wouldn't have kept it for a sixth season if the move had not happened however.

Essentially, it was. They just sold it to UPN after WB passed.

WB was flushing gobs of cash down the toilet, and they didn't want to pay for salary increases on a 5 year old show. This is what happens on every show, not just Buffy. The cast and crew salaries get incredibly expensive after a couple of years, so you've got to have superstar ratings to justify that. (To put this in perspective, by the end of the show's run, Hannigan alone was pulling down $250,000 an episode).

Not saying (and didn't say) that Gellar and Whedon weren't also looking for an out, but the bottom line was, well, the bottom line.


In the 2001–2002 season, the show had moved to UPN after a negotiation dispute with The WB. While it was still one of their highest rated shows on their network, The WB felt that the show had already peaked and was not worth giving a salary increase to the cast and crew.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_(TV_s eries)#U.S._ratings

They got a small bump after UPN picked up, but lost a million viewers in the seventh season, coming in for the lowest total of the show's entire run.

[Irish]

Who the hell wouldn't notice that?

I don't know!? That's why I was so incredulous in my post. I read what you wrote and it sounded like pure crazy talk.

Thanks for the clarification, makes much more sense now.

[Lucky]

I didn't look it up, just remembered from way back when. But given your post, I looked it up.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_(TV_s eries)#U.S._ratings

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charmed#American_ratings

Charmed outperformed Buffy every year they were on the air at the same time, save one (when Buffy moved to UPN).

Those are the same sources I was using, too. If you look at the network rankings column, they are tied for #2 2/3 of the years. If you're arguing that Charmed's avg ratings of 5.5 and 4.8 are outdoing Buffy's at 5.3 and 4.7, respectively, so be it. I think that's splitting hairs and even the network deemed them ties. Neither of the shows consistently won second place, it was a flopping battle week-to-week. Hence the reason for the tie, I'm sure. Yeah, Buffy lost one year to Charmed when they were both on the WB, I said that above, but then it beat Charmed the next year after the network switch. When you compare the average viewership over the entire span of both shows, Buffy actually pulls ahead with a better avg/season. All I'm saying is I don't think it's fair to say Charmed "outdid" Buffy. I think they were on pretty even ground.


Buffy was cancelled. Twice. I don't think that's really the show's fault. Whedon was elsewhere, Gellar was getting long in the tooth, and everybody probably wanted more money. I'm a bit cynical about it, because there are no creative differences in LA. There's getting your quote or not, and everything else is secondary.

Yeah, I give you that the WB would have canceled it. I wasn't considering that aspect since UPN picked it up right away, but I know the WB wasn't going to foot the bill for the escalating budget. However, UPN did not cancel the show. Gellar broke the news of Buffy ending in a high profile EW interview titled "Buffy Quits." It allegedly angered cast/crew (Hannigan included) because they found out about the show ending the same time the public did through that interview.

http://www.smgfan.com/images2003/smgewquitcoversmgfan.jpg?w=300&h=300

[DavidSeven]

Watching the episodes that Whedon write and direct, you get the sense that he could've had the film career of someone like Alan Ball if he wasn't so dedicated to genre and geek tropes, and it just shows you what terrible bias there is towards sci-fi/fantasy in Hollywood. Even when they're big moneymakers, they rarely get the analysis they deserve just because people can't look past campy premises.

Pretty much. The Body and Restless are two of the best produced episodes of television anywhere. The craft and writing of both are near flawless. I also put Innocence and Passion right there with those episodes on my list of favorites, because they're so damn well-written and moving, but Whedon's true promise as a legit filmmaker doesn't become obvious until the season 4 finale. He then outdoes himself with The Body. His reputation in television would be well-earned on the basis of those two episodes alone.

[number8]

Hooooly pissballs, I just watched the last three episodes of Season 5 in a row after getting blitzed out of my gourd.

I could not fucking take it. Why did I do that? Jesus Christ. My heart is pinata.

[MadMan]

We'll see how I feel after I finally finish Season 6 and view all of Season 7, but I can't shake this belief I have currently that the show should have ended after Season 5.

[Mara]

Hooooly pissballs, I just watched the last three episodes of Season 5 in a row after getting blitzed out of my gourd.

I could not fucking take it. Why did I do that? Jesus Christ. My heart is pinata.

I find this whole post ridiculously charming.

[Mara]

We'll see how I feel after I finally finish Season 6 and view all of Season 7, but I can't shake this belief I have currently that the show should have ended after Season 5.

Nope nope nope. I have a big issue with this idea-- and you're not alone in it by a long shot. Although season 5 is my favorite, there is a level of moral complexity and maturity to the last two seasons that are absolutely essential to appreciating the show as a whole. Season six is phenomenal, and my appreciation for it has grown over time... mostly because the first time I watched it I found it so painful.

Season seven is more problematic, but still has some really great stuff. I'd compare it to season 4, where great character development and fantastic episodes get mixed in with some really questionable narrative decisions.

[number8]

Supernatural, on the other hand...

[Mara]

Supernatural, on the other hand...

No kidding. There is a serious virtue in knowing when to end a show.

[number8]

Found out that in Season 3, WB moved Angel to Monday night, a night before Buffy Season 6's Tuesday timeslot. That must have been disorienting for people who were used to watching new episodes of Angel after Buffy.

[Mara]

Found out that in Season 3, WB moved Angel to Monday night, a night before Buffy Season 6's Tuesday timeslot. That must have been disorienting for people who were used to watching new episodes of Angel after Buffy.

I'm following a blog where the writer is watching the two shows in order (and following along, being my first time watching the two shows chronologically.) I had no idea there was that shift until he mentioned it.

You know that the show also changed networks, right? There are some noticeable changes. For one thing, Willow and Tara are allowed to kiss in non-world-ending situations.

[number8]

Yeah, I'd known about that before. That was when WB bitterly forbade Angel from appearing on UPN.

I also knew that Whedon basically stopped being showrunner to develop Firefly and gave the role to Noxon. I remember reading a few "oh well" comments from the writers saying that Joss didn't abandon them, but he had obviously fallen in love with a new baby and gave all his attention to it instead, so the mood was a little weird on set.

[number8]

"You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me!"

Fuck, I love Spike.

[MadMan]

"You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me!"

Fuck, I love Spike.Yep. Spike goes from being a two bit villain to being one of the best characters on the show in a matter of one season or less.

[number8]

Damn, Willow, what the fuck.

[Mara]

Damn, Willow, what the fuck.

"You rank, arrogant amateur!"

I assume that's the scene you're referring to... it's kind of brutal. I think Joss spent five seasons building characters we love just so he could torture them all through season 6. He feasts on our tears.

[romantisaurusrex]

**subscribes to this thread now that 8's on 6

[Lucky]

More thoughts on S5, 8? Favorite episodes? Did you see the finale coming?

[number8]

I took a huge bong rip right before starting "Tabula Rasa" and when the mafia shark-man showed up with his shark Italian accent I fucking lost my shit completely. Like, clutching at the couch shouting laughter at the floor lost my shit.

I will answer y'all questions momentarily as soon as I regain my bearings.

[Qrazy]

Minor Angel Season 3 Spoilers

Gunn starts acting like a moron as soon as he starts dating Fred.

[number8]

20 minutes into the episode I realized that he's a LOAN SHARK. Started the whole fit again.

[Winston*]

Minor Angel Season 3 Spoilers

Gunn starts acting like a moron as soon as he starts dating Fred.

On the show for a certain number of seasons and never develops a personality.

[Lucky]

Spoilers, Winston.

[Winston*]

Fixed

[Lucky]

Apparently my joke wasn't very good. I was referring to the never developing a personality.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Gunn. He's a person. Of that much we can be sure.

[Mara]

Gunn's not that bad. He's just a little dull.


20 minutes into the episode I realized that he's a LOAN SHARK. Started the whole fit again.


Xander Harris: You gotta have something. Gotta be with movin' forward.

Buffy Summers: Like a shark.

Xander Harris: Like a shark with feet and... much less fins.

Spike: And on land.

Rupert Giles: Very good!

[number8]

"You rank, arrogant amateur!"

I assume that's the scene you're referring to... it's kind of brutal. I think Joss spent five seasons building characters we love just so he could torture them all through season 6. He feasts on our tears.

Actually, no. That got a whoa out of me, but I was reacting to what she did to Tara.

I think what I love about it is that all this darkness is absolutely earned. I hate when cheery shows go dark for no reason other than to up the stakes. Here, it's a very natural character progression where the characters have all taken their "goodness" for granted for so long and now it's time to address the moral implications of the same actions they've been doing (reminds me of Korra as a response to Avatar Book 3).

I feel like this is sort of Faith done right, actually. I liked the set-up and the payoff of Faith in Season 2, but her transition felt way too sudden and convenient (Oh look, a new Watcher shows up and disrupts her trust in people!). It should've been done more organically like this.

That brings me to something I forgot to mention about Season 4: Willow's coming out subplot is one of the most well-executed gradual development of sexuality I've ever seen on TV. Maybe it was helped by The WB being super prudes about gay characters so the show had to be coy about Willow and Tara's relationship (I read that the network didn't even notice all the magic-sex jabs until they spelled it out on the show, at which point they protested), but in any case, that was incredibly well-done the way they had the two become so intimate over a dozen or so episodes and not even address it directly. And even in their coming out episode, it's less about that and more about her lingering feelings towards Oz. Such a smart way to handle that.

[Mara]

Actually, no. That got a whoa out of me, but I was reacting to what she did to Tara.

You're a little further than I expected. But, yes, they've been teasing for a long time (at least since early season 4) that Willow uses magic as a crutch to avoid emotional pain, and by season 6 she's using it to avoid even inconveniences. Willow's actions make sense to a certain point, but it's so gradual it's hard to tell where and when she starts crossing a really serious moral line.

And Tara-- sweet, gentle Tara, who is the most sincere, least violent, and more moral person in the cast-- gets hurt by it. Willow, I love you, but we have a serious problem here.

[number8]

More thoughts on S5, 8? Favorite episodes? Did you see the finale coming?

So far, the only season that has consistently good episodes. The one with Anya's troll ex-boyfriend is probably the only episode I didn't like (weird, since it's Jane Espenson).

Hard to pick favorite episodes. Certainly, "The Body" is the obvious #1. The last three episodes are really satisfying. "Spiral" is a fantastic action episode, very Rio Bravo. Really made things super intense, which really sets up "Weight of the World" as the dramatic peak. That pillow scene. Man. The other two strong ones from the season are "Fool for Love" (fun crossover), "Forever" and "Intervention." If it wasn't already obvious, I'm really smitten by Spike.

Did not see the ending coming. Ridiculously emotional. That sense of gravitas is probably the only Whedonesque thing missing from The Avengers.

My favorite detail: while the others are still looking in shock and horror, Spike is the first one to drop to his knees and cry.

[number8]

You're a little further than I expected. But, yes, they've been teasing for a long time (at least since early season 4) that Willow uses magic as a crutch to avoid emotional pain, and by season 6 she's using it to avoid even inconveniences. Willow's actions make sense to a certain point, but it's so gradual it's hard to tell where and when she starts crossing a really serious moral line.

Exactly. I'm trying to think back on it to find the line, but it is hard. She just starts using magic more and more until we just associate her with it, and then the show suddenly nudges us with the elbow like, "Hey, you realize this is not good, right?" And that's when we go, "Oh damn, you're right." it's actually like a pretty good portrayal of alcoholism.

The most obvious hint I think is in Season 5, when she secretly pointed out the book with the resurrection spell to Dawn.

[Mara]

it's actually like a pretty good portrayal of alcoholism.

...I'm not going to lie, this season hits that note with a sledgehammer.


The most obvious hint I think is in Season 5, when she secretly pointed out the book with the resurrection spell to Dawn.

That's a good example, although we can trace it back even further, like to "Something Blue" when she tries to magick her heartbreak away. But Dawn and the book thing have some hints that become really interesting in retrospect. Willow's argument against it is "It's hard to do; it can go very wrong," etc. while Tara looks at her with concern and says, "And it's WRONG."

[number8]

...I'm not going to lie, this season hits that note with a sledgehammer.

That doesn't surprise me, considering my noting earlier in this thread about their use of sex metaphors in Season 4.

[Fezzik]

Gaaaah..

So here I am, home sick from work and reading through this thread made me want to watch some Buffy.

I see that Chill is having a mini marathon so I turn it on, just in time for Buffy to come home at the end of "I Was Made to Love You" and was like "no,no,no, nooo...are you serious?"


And then BAM, gut punch AAAAAALL over again.

[Biff Justice]

I've often wondered how much of what Joss (and his writers) does is planned out and how much is doing a great job of recognizing potential themes that come out of his storylines organically.

What you've said about Willow's growing addiction to magic arising from a very natural place is one, and I've also read somewhere that Joss always wanted to have a gay character on the show since the very start, but that he'd originally intended for that character to be Xander and he changed his mind when Seth Green left the show and Xander and Anya made such a great couple.

Either way it doesn't really matter since the end result is so well done, but I'm always fascinated by the craft of writers I respect.

[number8]

Well, I've known for years that Willow comes out as a lesbian, so I tried looking for clues of that in the first three seasons, and I don't think there were any. That one did develop out of Seth Green leaving, but they did roll it out slowly after deciding on it. The earliest clues to it, I think, was the "UC Sunnydale Lesbian Alliance" banner that Riley's hanging, which is before Tara's introduction but after Oz leaves.

Some of them are obviously meticulously planned. Dawn's arrival, for example, was hinted at in Season 3, when Faith and Buffy met in a dream in Dawn's bedroom. That's like 2 years in advance that Whedon started the build up.

[Mara]

Actually, I think the first indication of Willow's sexuality was when Vampire Willow from the alternate reality was, at the very least, bi-sexual. They have a conversation where Buffy assures Willow that the vampire personality has nothing to do with the person they were, and Angel tries to correct her. Thus, if Vampire Willow is bisexual, that is somewhere inside Willow, too.

Amusingly, the exact line Willow uses to note this: "And I think I'm kinda gay" is repeated verbatim in "Tabula Rasa."

[romantisaurusrex]

I've often wondered how much of what Joss (and his writers) does is planned out and how much is doing a great job of recognizing potential themes that come out of his storylines organically.

What you've said about Willow's growing addiction to magic arising from a very natural place is one, and I've also read somewhere that Joss always wanted to have a gay character on the show since the very start, but that he'd originally intended for that character to be Xander and he changed his mind when Seth Green left the show and Xander and Anya made such a great couple.

Either way it doesn't really matter since the end result is so well done, but I'm always fascinated by the craft of writers I respect.

I'm pretty sure but for his popularity Spike was going to die in "Lie to Me" in S2 and Dru was going to be the lingering big bad.

[Raiders]

I'm pretty sure but for his popularity Spike was going to die in "Lie to Me" in S2 and Dru was going to be the lingering big bad.

Not sure about Dru, but it has been confirmed by Whedon that Spike was indeed going to be a brief villain. I believe when he is paralyzed in "What's My Line Part 2" is when he was to have died but just got severely injured instead.

[number8]

Ahhh, there it is, I was waiting for this whole Trio thing to take a really dark turn. I've known about Whedon's disgust for those 80s "nerds get the babes" movies, so I was expecting this hard moral decline.

[Lucky]

"Dead Things?"

[Glass Co.]

Ahhh, there it is, I was waiting for this whole Trio thing to take a really dark turn. I've known about Whedon's disgust for those 80s "nerds get the babes" movies, so I was expecting this hard moral decline.

I love it. Nerds being portrayed as awkward do-gooders is completely played out.

[number8]

"Dead Things?"

Correct.

[Qrazy]

End of Angel Season 4

I like Whedon's take that Oprah Winfrey is an ultimate evil.

[Raiders]

End of Angel Season 4

I like Whedon's take that Oprah Winfrey is an ultimate evil.

You know why this episode really rocks?

No more friggin' Connor.

Well, almost.

[Mara]

I find Angel S4 to be problematic, to say the least, but it goes out with a bang.

Everything from when it's Fred vs. the world to the end is really strong. Jasmine is a great villain.

[Qrazy]

I'm only on Episode 19 so I'm not going to read those spoilers yet.

[Irish]

I find Angel S4 to be problematic, to say the least, but it goes out with a bang.

Everything from when it's Fred vs. the world to the end is really strong. Jasmine is a great villain.

May I sort of gently disagree here?

I thought the idea behind these episodes were decent, if a bit worn (the whole benevolent-leader-with-an-agenda thing has been widely done in everything from Star Trek to Battlestar Galactica to Conan the Barbarian.)

IIRC, the Jasmine arc is three episodes. In one of them, literally nothing happens and nothing can happen, because the entire gang and the whole world are under Jasmine's influence.

That works as a story concept when we're talking about a chapter in a novel. But in a genre show as plot dependent as Angel, it was awful. Whedon & Co burned 43 minutes of time talking about nothing. He has a story here, sure, but he had no second act.

[Mara]

From a blog I'm following on Angel it turns out a lot of fans don't like Fred.

I... just... what?

[Dead & Messed Up]

From a blog I'm following on Angel it turns out a lot of fans don't like Fred.

I... just... what?

I is befuddle. Link?

[Lucky]

From what I've seen of Angel, I don't dislike Fred, but I'm definitely not enamored by her either.

Amy Acker, on the other hand, played one of my favorite parts on Dollhouse and was fun in her stint on Alias. I imagine I would grow to like the character more had I watched seasons 3-5 in their entirety.

[Mara]

I is befuddle. Link?

It's not one specific page, but numerous comments over numerous posts. People complain that she "babbles," that she acts like a child, that she's annoying.

I totally love Fred, and I think she has an important function within the group all the way to the end. She'd probably make my top ten Buffyverse characters.

[Lucky]

Drag queen and Co. singing OMWF. And really well at that.

klWCmD6zIVM

[Qrazy]

My feelings on Angel are mixed. It certainly has some really great stuff, and some of the original characters introduced on that show are some of Whedon's finest. At the same time, I don't find Angel to be a compelling main character, and sometimes the narrative choices are baffling. I'm going to be interested in hearing your reaction.

I just went through the whole thread searching for Angel comments. You've literally said these remarks roughly seven times haha. :)

[Qrazy]

Just barely finished the series and I think my seasons would go 53421.

I think around the end of season 2 was when I really hit a stride and then basically watched nothing but for about two weeks.

I think I'd agree with that ordering.

[Qrazy]

"Fool for Love"... Wow.

Okay, I thought I could do this whole back and forth thing, but Buffy season 5 is on a goddamn roll and Angel is boring me. I'm just gonna go ahead and finish season 5 by itself.

I hope you've gotten back on the Angel wagon because it gets a hell of a lot better.

[Mara]

I just went through the whole thread searching for Angel comments. You've literally said these remarks roughly seven times haha. :)

At least I'm consistent!

[Qrazy]

Decided to make a quick animated gif of the best scene in Angel. Very minor season 5 spoilers.

http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z439/Goldmundion/angel-smile-time.gif

[Thirdmango]

Decided to make a quick animated gif of the best scene in Angel. Very minor season 5 spoilers.

I've been thinking about playing back that episode on my computer and taking screenshots so I can make it my avatar.

[Mara]

Yeah, that's my favorite episode of Angel. In some ways, it's so silly... but gloriously silly.

[number8]

I've stopped disliking Xander. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Dawn is a lightning rod for all my hatred. Selfish little shit.

Also Normal Again isn't bad, but I've seen this gimmick used better many times before.

[number8]

Whaaat the fuck kind of depression streak was Whedon on when he wrote this season?

[Lucky]

You picked an odd time to stop disliking Xander. Have you made it through "Seeing Red" yet?

[Mara]

Whaaat the fuck kind of depression streak was Whedon on when he wrote this season?

Season six is very, very grim. But great. But grim.

[number8]

You picked an odd time to stop disliking Xander. Have you made it through "Seeing Red" yet?

I'm on season 7, so yes.

[Mara]

When you were talking about depressing streak, were you talking about season 7? Because I think it's much less bleak than season 6.

[number8]

Oh no, I was talking about 6. I'm only on the first episode of 7.

[Qrazy]

It may be less bleak than 6, but it's also less good, and by less good I mean crap.

[Mara]

This has been discussed thoroughly on the thread, but I'll say it again: season 7 has problems, but I'm not as down on it as Qrazy and KF. There are some great moments and interesting arcs. Quality-wise, I'd equate it with season 4.

[number8]

Daaaamn, that scene between Angel and Wesley in the hospital.

[Qrazy]

Daaaamn, that scene between Angel and Wesley in the hospital.

Seriously.

[Biff Justice]

Daaaamn, that scene between Angel and Wesley in the hospital.

Great scene. I think that may be when I started realizing that Wesley had become one of my favorite Whedon characters.

[number8]

Finished season 3. I hear the fans hate Connor. Whassup with that? He's the most compelling storyline the show's had so far.

[Mara]

Finished season 3. I hear the fans hate Connor. Whassup with that? He's the most compelling storyline the show's had so far.

Well. It certainly had potential.

We should talk about it after you finish season 4.

I have a hard time listing a season as my favorite. Fred and Lorne are two of my favorite characters, and they barely figure in before the third season, so I tend not to list the first two. Season 3 has some great stuff, there are chunks of season 4 that I totally hate, and season 5 is great but feels like a reboot, or almost an entirely new show.

So... dunno.

[Raiders]

Finished season 3. I hear the fans hate Connor. Whassup with that? He's the most compelling storyline the show's had so far.

As Mara said, you haven't trekked Season 4 yet.

[number8]

This magical varsity jacket episode is awful.

[Qrazy]

This magical varsity jacket episode is awful.

Indeed.

[Lucky]

Bah, that episode is great fun. Buffy's take on 90210. Throwback to the lighter highschool era episodes like Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. Anya is hilarious in this, too.

[Mara]

This magical varsity jacket episode is awful.

I think it's hysterical, but I'm in the minority. The Charlie's-Angel's-esque four-part split screen cracks me up every time.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I think it's hysterical, but I'm in the minority. The Charlie's-Angel's-esque four-part split screen cracks me up every time.

I enjoyed the heck out of it. I think the tipping point is when Willow gets into him.

[number8]

Alexis Denisof doublefisting handguns in slow motion is strangely sexy.

[Irish]

Alexis Denisof doublefisting handguns in slow motion is strangely sexy.

Can I just interject and say this now? This guy was amazing. Probably the best actor on that series.

There's an immense difference between where he starts off in this universe and where he ends up. It's a huge, multi-year arc and, for my money, one of the best on tv.

What's more amazing is that Whedon probably had little to no idea about any of it when he originally cast Denisof for Buffy.

[Mara]

Alexis Denisof doublefisting handguns in slow motion is strangely sexy.

I think he's really attractive, particularly in season 4, when they let him get all scruffy.

[number8]

Yeah, Wesley's progression is pretty amazing. Subtle, too. In the episode where they lost their memories and he reverted back to Old Wesley, it's incredibly striking. I marathoned these shows and it was still surprising how different he was in Buffy.

[Qrazy]

Yep, it's a great character arc and you have some more epic Wesley to come in Season 5 number8. I'd say he's probably my favorite character on Angel.

I both loved and was bothered by the exchange between Wes and Willow...

When they are talking about how dark their lives got. Loved it because it's amazing and hilarious ('I kept a slave girl for a while') but it bothered me a bit because of how it undermined the severity of their immoral actions.

[number8]

Well, fuck, the soul ninja twist got me.

[number8]

Also, "Soulless" is terrific. Just absolutely riveting. A very different kind of terrorizing than in Buffy Season 2, but just as effective.

[number8]

This season of Angel is quite good. Quite good.

[Qrazy]

Well, fuck, the soul ninja twist got me.

Whedon is very good at making the plot go in a direction where the viewer feels cheated and like what the fuck is this and then completely pulling out the rug on those narrative threads and restoring one's faith.

[number8]

Whedon is very good at making the plot go in a direction where the viewer feels cheated and like what the fuck is this and then completely pulling out the rug on those narrative threads and restoring one's faith.

Yes. One of the most convincing fake-outs I've seen, I think. It really didn't even occur to me at all.

[number8]

This is my favorite Giles moment.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/211042_153172834750213_6260276 _n.jpg

"It's time to get serious. This is not a joke."

[Qrazy]

This is my favorite Giles moment.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/211042_153172834750213_6260276 _n.jpg

"It's time to get serious. This is not a joke."

So which eps are you on in both shows?

[number8]

Episode 15 on both.

[Mara]

I'm pretty much happy whenever Giles is drawing pictures of people being slaughtered.

Buffy 7.16 is a personal favorite of mine, but it's divisive. I'm curious to see what you think. I'm more fond of season 7 than some folks (Qrazy and KF both disliked it strongly) but I think it has many redeemable features to go along with the problematic elements.

[number8]

Well I'm more than halfway and so far this is nowhere near as bad as 4. It's just kinda season 1 cheesy and boring-y, with more angst.

[Qrazy]

Episode 15 on both.

Episode 15 Season 4 of Angel or Season 5?

[Qrazy]

Well I'm more than halfway and so far this is nowhere near as bad as 4. It's just kinda season 1 cheesy and boring-y, with more angst.

4 has so many good stand alone episodes though.

[number8]

Episode 15 Season 4 of Angel or Season 5?

4. I'm watching them concurrently because I care about the crossovers.

[Qrazy]

4. I'm watching them concurrently because I care about the crossovers.

Cool. Marathon! Go gogogogogogo.

[number8]

Nathan Fillion, why you so creepy?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Not his fault they're so dirty.

[number8]

Did Firefly get cancelled or something?

[Biff Justice]

Did Firefly get cancelled or something?

No, they're about to head into Season 11. I hope they finally explain why Book has all those Alliance contacts!

[Mara]

Did Firefly get cancelled or something?

Yet another alum shows up in Angel season 5.

[number8]

Hell of a finale.

[number8]

I can totally understand why that finale inspired scholars to write a gender studies thesis around it.

[Lucky]

yqiiP6NJkh4

So...ranking of the seasons now that you're done? Overall thoughts?

[Mara]

Hell of a finale.

I know not everyone loves it, but I do. I get breathless and teary every time.

[number8]

Why don't people love it? It's the perfect escalation of the series' basic philosophy.

[number8]

BTW, does anyone have any info on how UPN and WB allowed crossovers again after barring it in the previous season?

[Lucky]

BTW, does anyone have any info on how UPN and WB allowed crossovers again after barring it in the previous season?

I don't know. I'm still a little peeved that we never got to see Buffy and Angel's meetup in the beginning of Buffy S6.

[Mara]

BTW, does anyone have any info on how UPN and WB allowed crossovers again after barring it in the previous season?

I believe it involved significant money changing hands. They were willing to open the pocketbook for the finale.

Qrazy can give you his take, but I think he thought the whole thing was silly. For me, it was a great return to form for the season, which had wandered a little bit.

By the way, this is the obligatory post where I point you toward my BtVS writings:

Here is my top 35 list: http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=2548

And here is the massive pseudo-scholarly article I wrote about how BtVS takes on Campbell's monomyth: http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=757

[number8]

Yet another alum shows up in Angel season 5.

Are you referring to Private Tracey? He was in the S4 finale already.

[number8]

I believe it involved significant money changing hands. They were willing to open the pocketbook for the finale.

Must be a lot. The second ep of S5 actually used clips from the finale! That must have been unprecedented, to have a show flashback to a scene from a different show on a competing network. I'm kind of fascinated.

[Thirdmango]

Are you referring to Private Tracey? He was in the S4 finale already.

She is not, though I was thinking about saying, "There's also a smaller star that is also in Buffy that you'll see."

[Mara]

Are you referring to Private Tracey? He was in the S4 finale already.

I forgot about him! He was also in the Buffy episode "Conversations with Dead People" playing the vampire that Buffy bonds with before killing.

[number8]

Yeah to be honest that bothered me a little. I can usually get over it (like in Doctor Who, for example), but with a show with as strong a continuity as this, I just kept waiting for a twist that it's the same guy.

[Mr. McGibblets]

Why don't people love it? It's the perfect escalation of the series' basic philosophy.

I hate how devalued vampires have become by that point. It used to take a slayer driving a stake into their heart to kill them, but in the finale some of them die by being tapped with a sword.

[Mara]

They have a number of twofers. For instance, before Tom Lenk was Andrew he was one of Harmony's minions in the episode where Harmony had minions. Anya's demon friend Halfrek was Cecily, whom William The Not Bloody loved when he was human. There is a slight nod that she might be the same person, when Spike and Halfrek recognize each other (maybe) in "Older and Far Away." The guy who was running the religious-cult-actually-abducting-kids in "Anne" is Doyle's ex-wife's fiancee in Angel. The Judge from Buffy season 2 was also The Master's minion Luke in season 1. And the guy who was Sahjhan on Angel (the dimension-skipping demon who brings Holtz back) also plays the wicked werewolf killer in Buffy's "Phases."

That's all I can think of. Are there more?

Whedon's love of reusing actors apparently trumps his love of continuity.

[Lucky]

The only one of those I noticed on my own was Hally/Cecily. That actress also appears in the indie film TiMER starring Emma Caulfield. This makes me wonder if the actresses are real life friends.

[number8]

The Cecily/Halfrek thing is the reason why I figured the continuity is stronger than it probably is. Also Chanterelle/Lily/Anne.

[Mara]

That actress also appears in the indie film TiMER starring Emma Caulfield.

I know we've talked about it in this thread before, but such a weird movie. I find myself thinking about it at odd times and even considering rewatching it, even though I'd essentially call it a failure. The ideas behind it are interesting, though.

[number8]

This submarine episode is THE BEST.

[Qrazy]

This submarine episode is THE BEST.

Haha yeah it's funny stuff. That's why I have no problem with Spike being brought on, it resulted in too much goodness and let's face it, the central mythology of the show is far from fleshed out anyway. I don't care what narrative conceits they take as long as it makes it entertaining.

How are you liking this season overall?

[number8]

Oh fuck that ending

[Dead & Messed Up]

Oh fuck that ending

It's a good ending.

[Mara]

Oh fuck that ending

I don't like the finale by and large-- too rushed, too many crazy loose ends-- but there are a few great moments, and the last two minutes are killer.

Also Lorne's last scene. Because, damn.

[number8]

It's not supposed to be an ending, that's the problem.

[number8]

Rewatching S1 eps I skipped. Look at how fucking young Angel is. Vampires do age, apparently.

[Mara]

After watching Angel, I find it really disconcerting to go back and see that, after everything he's been through, he's hitting on a 15-year-old girl.

Creeper.

[number8]

After watching Angel, I find it really disconcerting to go back and see that, after everything he's been through, he's hitting on a 15-year-old girl.

Creeper.

That was how I felt while watching the second half Angel.

"Damn, David Boreanaz looks 35. I can't believe they got away with having him have sex with a teenager."

Then I rewatched the first season and was like, "Oh right, he used to kinda look like one."

[number8]

I found THE BEST tumblr.

http://angeldoesstuff.tumblr.com/

[Lucky]

Heh, funny. I used to have that Buffy cardboard cutout when I was in highschool. It was about six feet tall and I used to plant it in random areas of the house to scare the shit out of my family. My mom ended up throwing it away in a fit of rage one day.

[Mara]

I found THE BEST tumblr.

http://angeldoesstuff.tumblr.com/

This is brilliant.

[Mara]

Someone pointed me to the Twitter of Retta, who plays Donna on Parks & Recreation and apparently likes to Tweet her reactions to television shows. She's on Buffy Season 2 right now, and I might be in love with her sassy remarks.

https://twitter.com/unfoRETTAble


Oh Lord. Angel left his humanity up in Buffy’s nether region? That’s unfortunate.

[Mara]

In "Conversations with Dead People," Spike's subplot has him picking up a blonde at a bar and biting her. That actress is the same that played Senator Perrin's wife in Dollhouse.

Also, in my current rewatch of Angel I'm noting every time Wesley uses a gun. He's the only Buffyverse character who pretty much ever uses one, and he goes for guns consistently. They might actually be his favorite weapon.

[Lucky]

Of all the cast, Danny Strong is the first to win an Emmy. Congrats, Jonathan.

[Lucky]

Rewatching S7. "Beneath You" isn't quite as bad as I remembered, although that scene at the bar is a trainwreck. I also don't like how there are no repercussions for Spike stabbing that dude. That closing scene though, wow.

"Same Time, Same Place" is better than I remembered. Man, that demon is effectively creepy. Also, I completely forgot about the closing scene with Buffy and Willow. That's right up there with the most touching moment between those two. Right after the scene when Willow tells Buffy she's going to UC Sunnydale.

[Mara]

"Same Time, Same Place" is better than I remembered. Man, that demon is effectively creepy. Also, I completely forgot about the closing scene with Buffy and Willow. That's right up there with the most touching moment between those two. Right after the scene when Willow tells Buffy she's going to UC Sunnydale.

Oh, I totally like that episode. It's scary, confusing, and ends up heart-warming. Good stuff. Also, the scene with Spike from two different perspectives has some clever writing.

I'm still watching Buffy/Angel chronologically, and I'm about halfway through 7/4. Still hate Angel season 4 for the most part. And I think Buffy season 7 is undervalued.

[Mara]

Angel S4 is such a mess, but Faith's prison break is still one of my favorite television scenes of all time.

[Mara]

My roommate is watching for the first time with me. We made it past season one with a few stretches of eye-rolling and are now safely in the second season. I'm anxious to see her reaction once we get to Surprise/Innocence.

[Fezzik]

Amazon has the entire series on sale today for $65.99. (http://www.amazon.com/Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Complete-Series/dp/B0046XG48O/ref=br_lf_m_1000841671_1_3_ttl ?ie=UTF8&s=movies-tv&pf_rd_p=1411121862&pf_rd_s=center-4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_i=1000841671&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0EV2XCP2ATBGZPVARNQP)

[Mara]

Roommate just started season 3 and this is apparently where I get jealous that she's watching episodes without me. I think she's going to see "Faith, Hope & Trick" while I'm at work, but I'm hoping to be home for "Homecoming" and "Band Candy."

Especially "Band Candy."

[number8]

Finally collecting Season 8 and reading them in order. You know, it actually reads way better in trades than trying to follow it monthly.

I can't wait to catch up to Season 9, though. I know they established a back-to-basics status quo and everyone agrees it's better than Season 8.

[Mara]

I can't wait to catch up to Season 9, though. I know they established a back-to-basics status quo and everyone agrees it's better than Season 8.

I was so burned by season 8 that I haven't even bothered. You'll have to tell me if they are worth it.

[number8]

I was so burned by season 8 that I haven't even bothered. You'll have to tell me if they are worth it.

It's a semi-reboot, so I think you can jump right onto it if you want. There are some things going for it that seems (and confirmed by many) to make it a lot better.

Some things that I know about it (at least where the season started):

1. They're sticking to a mapped out 25 issues this time, like how S8 was supposed to be, before the success expanded it to a bloated 40 issues.

2. The Scooby gang are all over 30 now, so Buffy is actually forced to deal with adult problems for the first time. As in, get a paying job and live in the real world, not just taking care of Dawn or fighting a war. And apparently she's suffering the consequences of her bad grades and dropping out of college.

3. Since Buffy's no longer leading a Slayer army, the supporting cast is pared down considerably to just core characters. It's pretty much just Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Xander and Spike for the most part, and Willow's back to being the tech-savvy Scooby, since magic is gone.

4. With magic being gone, there's not a lot of apocalypse stuff going on anymore. For the most part it's back to vampires and other grounded ghoulies. Mostly though, it's just focusing on Buffy drama.

All that sounds very promising. That said, the Angel + Faith series, which is also part of S9, is supposedly even better. I'll report back when I've confirmed all this.

[MadMan]

Life Serial was really funny and enjoyable after a rough start. Buffy's relationship with Spike has become awkward and weird, which I guess is what happens when a vampire falls in love with a slayer and is down with killing demons. The ending though clearly shows that Giles is not telling Buffy something. He won't be there for her forever, won't he? I'm sad at that thought.

Now I'm watching All The Way. Halloween is a funny thing in the Buffyverse, as I've seen before.

[Mara]

Your next two episodes are absolute top-notch Buffy. You're gonna love them.

Meanwhile, my roommate and I are on season 4, and she's enjoying it, although she has some valid annoyances with this season. I think she's going to watch "Where the Wild Things Are" without me today, and I'm giggling in anticipation.

[MadMan]

All The Way was great. That said...bad Willow. Bad. Nothing good will come of this. Also poor Giles got his ass kicked, but at least he got to kick some ass. I miss that about him, these days he's more of a stoic parental figure.

BTW Spike watching Night of the Living Dead=great joke, and a great movie choice. Ah Halloween. Best night of the year.

Once More, With Feeling=I laughed. But um, I'm not the biggest fan of musicals. Anya's musical number about bunnies was the best :lol:

[MadMan]

Tabula Rasa was pretty emotional, and really sad. Although the episode featured Season 6's normal brand of silly humor, overall this is probably a turning point where shit continues to get real. And hey I was proven right in thinking that after seeing....

....Smashed, where things get truly real. Spike and Buffy having sex was bound to happen, especially since she's now undead, too. Damn Willow, going off and doing stupid shit with Amy who's a bad influence. Nothing good will come of what they're doing.

I still miss Giles, but I'm sure there was a reason he was written off the show during this time.

[Mara]

I still miss Giles, but I'm sure there was a reason he was written off the show during this time.

He wanted to spend more time with his family in England. He's not gone forever, but I miss him, too.

Having him gone is actually an interesting catalyst for a lot of what happens in season 6-- things that probably would not have happened if there was a responsible adult around.

[MadMan]

He wanted to spend more time with his family in England. He's not gone forever, but I miss him, too.Well I guess that makes sense.


Having him gone is actually an interesting catalyst for a lot of what happens in season 6-- things that probably would not have happened if there was a responsible adult around.Well I'll find out for certain about that...

Wrecked btw was a bit too heavy handed and obvious, yet it was still really painful to watch. Willow goes to bleak places. Sad places. She really should have listened to Tara. Also poor Spike is being jerked around by Buffy...

This leads to Gone, a really funny and entertaining hour of TV that was necessary. Its also not a complete waste since it furthers the overlying arc of the show. The Trio are great in this in terms of humor, and I loved the bit where they are all arguing over who the best Bond is. I'm kind of bummed that Spike tosses Buffy out, but he was smart to do so. You can't be with someone who doesn't love you.

[Lucky]

I watched "Ted" today which is generally an episode I skip. This is probably the third time I've seen it. This is a seriously dark episode with consequences that never materialize that ends up being one of the hardest scenarios in the entire series to accept. How did the police and Joyce not find out about Ted? And the entire school thought Buffy was a murderer, but it's never spoken of again.

[romantisaurusrex]

I watched "Ted" today which is generally an episode I skip. This is probably the third time I've seen it. This is a seriously dark episode with consequences that never materialize that ends up being one of the hardest scenarios in the entire series to accept. How did the police and Joyce not find out about Ted? And the entire school thought Buffy was a murderer, but it's never spoken of again.


Yeah you just listed the reasons I DON'T like that episode. Tries to fit too much into 45 minutes, too much plot too much drama too much emotion, then just ties it up in a pretty bow that's only half explained and moves on, annoying.

Also it makes me hungry.

[MadMan]

I liked Ted mostly because of John Ritter, but yeah I sort of agree that it leaves too many questions open.

[Lucky]

Just noticed in "Phases" for the first time that Xander makes a comment about his hyena possession and Buffy says, "You told us you didn't remember anything."

This refers back to the end of "The Pack" episode when Xander feigns amnesia about assaulting Buffy and admits this to Giles.

I love little continuities like this in this show. Longest one spanning five years when Buffy tells Willow in "Selfless", "You told me to kick his ass, remember?" Referencing back to when Xander lies to Buffy in "Becoming Pt. 2" because he always disliked Angel.

So essentially what I've learned today is that Xander is a liar. And it's amusing when the characters pick up on his lies years later.

[Lucky]

Also, after watching "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and "Phases" back-to-back, it's hard not to notice that the writers were planting some serious Buffy/Xander seeds. Glad those never came to fruition.

[Mara]

My roommate really likes Spike.

I mean, she really likes Spike.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Your roommate is good people.

[Mara]

Your roommate is good people.

She is so unequivocally pro-Spike that I find myself arguing the opposite just for fun. Pointing out how unstable he is, how controlling, how damaged. She doesn't even care.

[Fezzik]

My roommate really likes Spike.

I mean, she really likes Spike.

Spike's story is one of my favorite "hero's journey" arcs in any genre. Marsters helps it along, of course, but I just love how the character is written. It's rare that i take to a villain like I did with him, but its a testament to the great work Whedon did in developing him.

[Lucky]

You know, for being a suspect in two homicides, assaulting a police officer, and escaping arrest (twice), it's amazing that Buffy never spends any time in the big house.

[MadMan]

You know, for being a suspect in two homicides, assaulting a police officer, and escaping arrest (twice), it's amazing that Buffy never spends any time in the big house.I never thought about, but then again I'm only going through the show for the first time. I'm sure on repeat viewings I would have wondered that, too. Maybe the local police are bumbling idiots? Although some of them might have been bought off by The Mayor in Season 3.

[number8]

lolwat http://www.theawl.com/2013/01/angel-demons-television-theology

[number8]

I was so burned by season 8 that I haven't even bothered. You'll have to tell me if they are worth it.

Fulfilling my promise. I just read the first trade of S9, and it is definitely already better than all of S8. It's Buffy's life gets shit on again, which is always great because we get to see her rise above it.

It's kinda funny that at the end of S8, there's a letter from Joss where he basically apologized that S8 kinda got away from them:


So, our endless season ends. We’ve laughed, we’ve cried, we’ve thrown up a little in our mouths, but most of all we’ve learned. Not you guys—us. We’ve learned what you like, what you don’t, how this TV show translated to the world of comics, and how it didn’t quite. We’ve lost a few fans along the way and, hopefully, gained a few. I can’t say exactly how much has changed, in our lives or our work. The only thing that’s certain is this: all of us involved in this venture, without exception, have weirder-looking hair.

If you’ve read this issue, you’ve got a sense of where we’re heading for Season 9. Back, a bit, to the everyday trials that made Buffy more than a superhero. That made her us. I was so excited to finally have an unlimited budget that I wanted to make the book an epic, but I realized along the way that the things I loved the best were the things you loved the best: the peeps. The down-to-earth, recognizable people. And Mecha-Dawn. (She has a tail!) So that’s what we’ll try to evoke next season—along with the usual perils, and a few new ones, of course.

Every season of Buffy had a different intent, and a different set of challenges, from which to build. The biggest challenge in Season 8 was that many years ago I wrote a Slayer comic and set it in the far future so that it could never affect Buffy’s life. I was so young. But the challenge of reconciling the optimistic, empowering message of the final episode with the dystopian, Slayerless vision of Fray’s future gave Season 8 a genuine weight. There is never progress without hateful, reactionary blowback. That’s never been more apparent than in today’s political scene in America. The mission was to deal with the consequences of Buffy and Willow’s empowering spell (the good and the terrible), steer toward a possible Fray future without undoing all the good Buffy had done (the girls still have their power), and tee us up for a very different Season 9. Some adjustments had to be made along the way, particularly when I completely changed my plan for Season 9. I changed it for the reasons stated above. No matter how interesting the world stage or mystical dimensions can be, Buffy’s best when she’s walking that alley, dusting vamps, and nursing a pouty heart. We’re not going back to square one, but our square will definitely have a oneishness to it. It should be nice, after the wild ride that was Season 8—not always perfect, but made with love and delight that I think shine through.

The people who need to be thanked really deserve more than just thanks—but we’re all too scattered for the inappropriate touching required to convey my gratitude and occasional awe. Scott Allie is why there are editors. Smart, patient, pushy when it’s time to be pushy—straddling the minutiae and the Big Picture in a way any show runner would envy. Georges—no book without Georges. If I didn’t make the smoothest transition from TV to comics, he sure as hell did. He drew wonderful likenesses that never felt like portraits, and panels that were dynamic, funny, and emotional. . . . No one could have evoked the ethos of the show better. Jo Chen’s covers make me cry. I won’t say more, or I’ll cry.

If I start listing the writers, this will be longer than the comic. But Drew Goddard writes the stuff I wish I had. Brad Meltzer writes like he was on the staff for all seven years (and is a nut for structure, which helped more than I like admitting). Jane Espenson, Brian K. Vaughan. . . . Wait, didn’t I just promise not to do this? Everyone brought such love and talent to the table, writers and artists and inkers and colorists and letterers and editors I’ve left in the cold (sorry, Sierra) in order to wrap this up. . . . The point is, this has been a long, strange trip, but it worked (when it did) because so many overqualified souls poured themselves into it. I’m grateful.

I’m grateful to the guys at IDW, particularly Chris Ryall and Brian Lynch, for handling the Angel series with such passion and hilarity, and for being kind and cooperative when I decided the two universes needed to be under one roof.

And I’m grateful to you guys, for coming on the ride. I promise it won’t get smoother. We’ve got a lot of new—and old—friends along, some new titles, and a bunch of limited series. . . . It’s nuts; I’m exhausted by the end of Season 8. So why am I so giddy about Season 9?

Maybe I’m a fan.

—Joss Whedon

[MadMan]

Doublemeat Palace had its moments, but it was merely solid overall. I liked some of the humor, and despite being a tad on the cheesy FX wise the old lady creature was freaky. I don't like the idea of some freaky monster coming out of an old woman's head. I don't like it...

Dead Things might be the most depressing Buffy episode since The Body. "You always hurt the people you love." So damn true. The Spike-Buffy relationship is odd, but it makes sense. Its also something that was clearly replicated in Veronica Mars with Logan and Veronica

I do miss Willow and Tara interacting on a regular basis. The scene with them was so goddamn sad.

[Mara]

I didn't know you could nest spoilers. Cool.

You're very close to where I am in my rewatch with my roommate (who has never seen it.) She got annoyed at me for not properly preparing her for some of the sad stuff this season, and she hasn't gotten to the worst yet.

:(

[Mara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7nv8Y4u0OAQ

Other tv shows referencing Buffy. Some are pretty funny.

[MadMan]

Some of those were hilarious. Others not so much.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Forgot to add this a couple weeks ago. Met Xander at the Motor City Comic Con. Couldn't have been nicer or more approachable.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/mike3245/Xander_zps9e062a1d.jpg

[Mara]

I'm pulling for him. He's had some bad times.

Glad to hear he was pleasant. And good picture!

[Lucky]

Cool pic! I'm a bit surprised Brendon never had any other offers. Guy had good comic timing. Not much for the dramatics, though. And he let himself go physically in the later years of Buffy. If they killed his character off after highschool he might have had a shot at a movie career.

[Mara]

Cool pic! I'm a bit surprised Brendon never had any other offers. Guy had good comic timing. Not much for the dramatics, though. And he let himself go physically in the later years of Buffy. If they killed his character off after highschool he might have had a shot at a movie career.

Isn't he a regular on Criminal Minds?

[Lucky]

Isn't he a regular on Criminal Minds?

After a quick imdbing, it would appear he is a semi-regular on that show, yes. He was also in a comedy series with Bradley Cooper a couple years post-Buffy that appeared to only last half a season.

[MadMan]

I'm jealous, KF. Nice pic.

[MadMan]

Older and Far Away was really funny and a nice diversion from Season 6's doom and gloom. I tried to watch As You Were but 10 minutes in I got so fucking depressed by what was happening that I shut it off. Seriously what the hell Buffy? I don't like it when a TV show reflects some of my actual problems. It gets too damn real. Oh and I knew that lame boy shows up again so I decided to watch something instead.

[Mr. McGibblets]

He was also in a comedy series with Bradley Cooper a couple years post-Buffy that appeared to only last half a season.

Kitchen Confidential is really good. There are 13 episodes, but only 3 or 4 ever aired on FOX. I think it's all on Hulu now.

[MadMan]

Okay a while back during the site's downtime I responded by sitting at my apartment and finishing Season 6. I stayed up all night doing it. So here's my thoughts on the rest of the episodes I watched:

As You Were went from being depressing to entertaining. Still that opener almost made me want to cry back when I first tried to watch it. I was drunk of course, but still that rejection letter....that's rough. I am so glad that Riley left as fast as he arrived. Good. What a wanker. Good episode overall, but not as strong as some of the others.

Hell's Bells....well....fuck. Poor Anya. Depressing episode is fucking depressing. Reminds me that I hate weddings.

Normal Again is Joss Whedon screwing with the audience. Right, Joss? RIGHT? Goddamn you, you beautiful bastard.

Entropy features much more depressing moments. Great episode, with a nice ending. The only nice ending in this long, cold, hard stretch of bleak episodes full of bad moments and life being really crappy. But of course....

Seeing Red: WHY GOD? WHY? I was in complete shock at how the entire thing ended. WTF? Not Tara... This show features some quality drama bombs. However: that attempted rape scene where Spike almost rapes Buffy....that was the show going to a dark place. Really dark. Super dark. I guess I should have seen character death coming later on because of it, I guess. Shit got real, man.

Villains is creepy. And I don't know why they had Buffy get shot too, as if they were going to kill off the main character. But it was still a shocking moment in the last episode I guess. Oh and Dark Willow is one bad angry female. Damn. The killing of Warren was gruesome-and this is coming from someone who watches way too much horror movies every year.

Two To Go is oddly more humorous even though its still Dark Willow trying to kill Jonathan and Andrew. Also I loved that Giles comes back at the end. I think I cheered. Oh and I really like that they had Spike go on his quest in Africa. That storyline was cool.

Grave is bleak, full of darkness, and then when you just think everything is screwed....Xander saves the day. Hurray Xander. Plus I liked Dawn and Buffy fighting together: that was actually pretty cool and not lame as I expected. Plus Spike got his soul back? Whoa. Didn't expect that to happen.

So now I'm on Season 7. Season 6 was great, although it starts a bit slow and there are a few lesser episodes scattered amongst the great ones. Now to finish the show, although I might take my time with the last season as I've heard mixed things about it and I want to enjoy it before I'm all done and have to then turn to the comics to get my fix.

[Mara]

My roommate and I have actually gotten pretty bitter in our contentions about seasons six and seven (which she says shouldn't exist and I say I HIT YOU.)

[Kurosawa Fan]

My roommate and I have actually gotten pretty bitter in our contentions about seasons six and seven (which she says shouldn't exist and I say I HIT YOU.)

Season six is the best season, and therefore absolutely should exist. It's ending isn't satisfactory as the conclusion of the series, so a seventh season was necessary. That said, the season seven they went with fell apart halfway through, and wasn't satisfactory either, so I can relate to arguments that it shouldn't exist, but only in place of a better endgame.

[Mara]

Season 7 had some significant problems, but I still maintain that the final two seasons are emotionally interesting and give the show some maturity and gravitas.

Also, and this may be shallow, but I love Andrew.

[Qrazy]

Season 6 is great but yeah 7 is balls minus one or two eps.

[MadMan]

Not inspiring a lot of confidence here guys :P

[number8]

Season 7 beat up my great aunt.

[Qrazy]

Season 7 beat up my great aunt.

Don't forget how it also raped her.

[number8]

Don't forget how it also raped her.

...But it didn't. Why would you say this? That's fucked up.

[Mara]

Not inspiring a lot of confidence here guys :P

Ah, everyone loves to dump on season 7. It's not that bad.

[Qrazy]

...But it didn't. Why would you say this? That's fucked up.

Oh, that must have been someone else's great aunt. I do know season 7 is a sex offender, just got the wrong aunt I suppose.

[MadMan]

Ah, everyone loves to dump on season 7. It's not that bad.I watched some of the first Season 7 episode and then turned it off. Perhaps it was because I had been watching Buffy all night long and was finally tired, or maybe because what I saw was kind of eh. Its really weird how Xander has become so damn responsible. I wasn't ready for him in a suit and a tie.

And Buffy worrying about mom hair was kind of funny. The new principal btw is played by the actor who played Wayne Palmer on 24.

[Thirdmango]

mid season 7 is largely forgettable but end season 7 is great. Season 6 is greatness, you have my permission to hit your roommate.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Hey, I posted a thing about this show on my thing. My favorite episodes. If you don't wanna click the blog (I won't judge you), they are:

01. "Restless"
02. "The Body"
03. "Innocence"
04. "Graduation Day"
05. "Hush"
06. "The Gift"
07. "Chosen"
08. "The Zeppo"
09. "Once More With Feeling"
10. "I Only Have Eyes For You"
11. "Villains"

[Mara]

After suddenly getting on the subject with my roommate last night, I ended up rewatching TiMER. It was her first time seeing it.

And you know what? Upon a rewatch, I think I actually like it. I think it's a good film.

It's not a perfect film, certainly. But I found the premise interesting, the characters engaging, and the conclusion actually really sad. My roommate and I talked about the implications of the film for quite a while afterwards.

(Yes, for whatever reason, this goes in the BtVS thread.)

EDIT: My roommate actually cried. Because of the sadness.

[MadMan]

Okay so I've fallen behind on commenting on episodes because I'm already on the 9th episode.

Lessons was entertaining and not a bad start to Season 7. Some lighthearted moments after a dark Season 6 finale. I like the ending, but Spike with a soul reminded me a little too much of when they made Logan whinny and lame in Season 3 of Veronica Mars.

Beneath You is pretty solid, although its more "Monster of the week" style material. I liked what they are doing with Anya though as a character, and I'm glad she's still on the show.

Same Time, Same Place was really freaky and sad all at the same time. Poor Willow...its tough for her to come back after going all psycho in Season 6. The creature-whatever the hell that was-creeped me out something fierce.

Help was merely okay. I don't really care for the high school elements in Season 7 but I guess we are here at this point since Dawn is in high school and Buffy works at the school too.

Selfless was pretty great, as it deals with Anya and even featured flashbacks. I dug that fight between her and Buffy. Two badass hard to kill beings going against one another. No more giant spiders for the love of God....and yes we have Anya and Xander finally coming to terms with what happened for good. I really liked that final scene, too.

Him sucked until the last 20 minutes when the episode became hilarious and entertaining. Still the high school scenes were awful and lame. Buffy with a rocket launcher made me smile.

Conversations With Dead People is pretty good, and I was surprised at what happened in that episode. So the First finally makes a true appearance to our heroes. And it has that whole freaky people devouring head sort of thing going on. Okay....

Sleeper is another episode I liked. This season isn't great so far but its consistent. Spike is actually really sad this episode, and I'm reminded of the scene with him and Buffy in the old tomb with the cross. Also: did the episode end with Giles being beheaded? What the hell Josh? Why? I'll have to find out later.

I stopped there because I didn't want to keep watching and then realize its 7 or 8 in the morning and I'm almost finished with the season. Those marathons were not good for my sleep or my health.

[MadMan]

Never Leave Me-Of course Principal Wood is up to something. I knew it! I enjoyed this episode due to the amount of action involved. I also like that Spike is for some reason the key to what's going on. It makes sense as he's one of the older vampires. Oh and I couldn't believe it when the Watcher's Council got wiped out. Holy crap. Game changer.

Bring On The Night-Man I don't like any of the potentials except for Kennedy, who has an actual personality. The super vampire is freaking weird. And of course hard to kill. Spike's torture was really sad and gruesome.

Showetime-Finally Buffy fights the super uber vampire dude. And shows the young girls who foolishly question her skills and abilities who's the boss. Nice. The stuff with Giles and Anya trying to find out about The First reminded me of Big Trouble In Little China for some reason.

Potential-Awesome all around, with Dawn struggling with her identity and Buffy and Spike forcing the potentials to actually do something and not cry about how they're all doomed, blah blah. Also I laughed when that one friendly demon reveals what he actually looks like. I'm a bit bummed that they've put Anya and Xander on the back burner, yet it makes sense as the main arch runs the show now.

The Killer In Me-There has been more humor and a bit of a lighter tone in this season, and it shows in this episode. I laughed when poor Giles gets tackled in the desert and is disturbed to find that he was thought to be The First since he didn't want to touch a bunch of girls. Andrew is really funny so far while also still being really creepy. Loved the side plot with Kennedy and Willow, as it goes back to last season.

[MadMan]

Okay so far I really like Season 7. The Potentials are mostly awful and make me want to hit the mute button, but otherwise I like Kennedy-Willow, the Spike and Buffy stuff, and the fact that Giles is back. The First is a creepy enough villain too. So far 7 is better than Seasons 1, 2, and 4 but not better than 3, 5, and 6.

[MadMan]

The great Buffy rewatch has been going on for a couple of weeks now. I bought all of the seasons at Half Priced Books.

Also more on Season 7. I'm way deep into it.

I actually like Season 1 more now. Season 2 is mostly consistent. Season 3 rules-I'm finishing it now.

[MadMan]

Interestingly enough I not only got to Pangs in time for Thanksgiving but I also viewed This Year's Girl right after watching the Season 7 episode where Faith returns to Sunnydale. I'm almost finished with Season 7-just three episodes left to go.