Buffy the Vampire Slayer [Archive] - Page 5

Fezzik

06-12-2011, 01:54 AM

I just finished Season 2 (The 'Becoming' Two parter), and holy shit, did the quality of this show fucking skyrocket.

It started, I think, an episode or two before Angel lost his soul, but really the entire second half of Season 2 was ace.

I had my first literal "Oh shit!" moments as I was watching these last few episodes, and I knew Whedon had me:

1. Angel losing his soul, period. The realization that it had happened.

2. Drusilla saving Xander from Angel because his witchcraft love spell affected her too.

3. The sudden realization that the swim team wasn't being eaten by the sea monsters, but were the sea monsters.

4. Angel killing Jenny :(

5. Just about everything in Becoming. i really loved the framing and the flashback scenes, and although I half jokingly called the Spike/Buffy alliance about 4 episodes before it happened, it still felt fresh to me.

As i was saying to the friend who turned me onto the show, I think its telling that because of its inherent campiness and Whedon's genre savvy, Buffy often does things you do expect, but it does them in a way that seems so out of left field that they seem unexpected. It's impressive.

Also, its weird that a campy show about a freaking teenage vampire hunter has become one of the most emotionally intense shows I've ever seen.

And, as a wrestling fan (and former wrestling writer), I took great joy in Spike's wrestling reference in the episode where Giles goes to the factory to kill Angel.

Giles is beating the crap out of Angel with a hammer and Drusilla moves to interfere, and Spike says (in the way only he can): "Ah ah ah, dearest, no entering the ring unless he tags you."

I about died.

Anyway, yeah. Damn, this show is gooooood. I'm glad I stuck with it. Thanks for the push, guys.

Mara

06-12-2011, 02:06 AM

I'm so glad you're liking it. Season two has some great stuff, although my favorite seasons are later on. It does an amazing job of balancing the funny/deliberately silly/campy aspects with some truthful, wrenching stuff.

ledfloyd

06-12-2011, 04:04 AM

Also, its weird that a campy show about a freaking teenage vampire hunter has become one of the most emotionally intense shows I've ever seen.
many of the most emotionally intense moments are ahead of you.

though reading this post made me think about 'passion' which is just one hell of an episode.

Fezzik

06-12-2011, 01:08 PM

many of the most emotionally intense moments are ahead of you.

though reading this post made me think about 'passion' which is just one hell of an episode.

Before watching 'Becoming,' 'Passion' might have been my favorite episode. Boreanaz' narration really added something to it, and the emotional explosion of Giles going after Angel was just amazing.

Raiders

06-23-2011, 04:40 PM

Episodes 2 through 5 of the second season have been pretty miserable. I really have no recollection of this time period of the show. Even the first episode was disappointingly over-the-top in Buffy's obnoxious aftermath characterization. The gang's dialogue is improving however, and Cordelia's oil-to-water presence is always a highlight.

I do remember the Angel losing his soul storyline, so I'm looking forward to that.

Mara

06-23-2011, 04:42 PM

Season 2 is pretty dumb until Spike shows up, as I recall.

Raiders

06-23-2011, 04:44 PM

Season 2 is pretty dumb until Spike shows up, as I recall.

Well, he did already two episodes ago, and his presence certainly has been the best thing so far, but I look forward to his increased presence once Angel goes bad and the season kicks into gear.

Mara

06-23-2011, 05:24 PM

That's why I don't really get fans (and there are a number of them) that list season 2 as the best season. Angelus is great, but the show is still a little wobbly. I don't think it gets really good until season 3.

Fezzik

06-23-2011, 07:16 PM

I just watched "Prom."

A highly emotional episode, and some moments that traditionally don't (or can't) work do here, for various reasons.

The whole

Buffy Summers: Class Protector

sequence would have come off as ridiculous in a movie, but here, after being with Buffy for three years, watching what she goes through and how she never seemed to feel like she was really part of her peer group...the entire thing, campiness, corniness and all came off as an incredibly well earned moment.

I admit I teared up a little.

One thing that really shocked me was the understated way Whedon had Cordelia thank Xander for the prom dress. I was expecting something more teenagery/romantic comedy but then again, this is Buffy. They don't do stuff that way :)

Oh...and since I'm talking season 3, I have a love/hate (hot?) relationship with Faith. Bitch.

Oh, and as much as the Wesley character is a complete buffoon so far, I really like the way Giles bounces off of him. Anthony Head's facial expressions since Wesley showed up have been priceless, especially the one AT the prom when he realizes that Wesley's "hot" comment was referring to Cordelia (who'd just entered the room).

Best Giles to Wesley line: "You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone."

I am SO stealing that line :D

Mara

06-23-2011, 07:26 PM

Yay Season 3!

Buffy Summers: Class Protector

sequence would have come off as ridiculous in a movie, but here, after being with Buffy for three years, watching what she goes through and how she never seemed to feel like she was really part of her peer group...the entire thing, campiness, corniness and all came off as an incredibly well earned moment.

I totally tear up at that part, which probably makes me a nerd. But it's such a nice payoff for her high school years.. Giles has some line about "I never knew children, en masse, could be so gracious." Great line.

Oh...and since I'm talking season 3, I have a love/hate (hot?) relationship with Faith. Bitch.

Love her. And love her relationship with the Mayor.

Oh, and as much as the Wesley character is a complete buffoon so far, I really like the way Giles bounces off of him. Anthony Head's facial expressions since Wesley showed up have been priceless, especially the one AT the prom when he realizes that Wesley's "hot" comment was referring to Cordelia (who'd just entered the room).

Wesley's such a princess. He's fun to have around. (Bonus: did you know he married Alyson Hannigan, Willow? They have a cute baby together.)

Wesley (along with Cordelia) leave BtVS after Season 3 to go with Angel onto his spin-off, where both of their characters are developed into really fascinating people. Angel gets more depth there, too, although I'm just not much of an Angel fan.

Mara

06-23-2011, 07:28 PM

Angel, the character. I also have mixed feelings on Angel, the series, but I am a fan of that, despite its flaws.

Raiders

06-23-2011, 07:57 PM

Not sure if it is a motif or not, but in "Inca Mummy Girl" Buffy makes mention of Giles' love of scones when she mocks him:

Giles: You have responsibilities other girls do not.
Buffy: Oh! I know this one! Slaying entails certain sacrifices, blah blah biddy blah, I'm so stuffy, give me a scone.
Giles: It's as if you know me.

Mara

06-23-2011, 08:00 PM

Stuffy British jokes are always funny.

Xander: Here’s your coffee. Brewed from the finest Colombian lighter fluid.
Giles: Horrible.
Xander: Aren’t you supposed to be drinking tea anyway?
Giles: Tea is soothing. I wish to be tense.
Xander: Okay, but you're destroying a perfectly good cultural stereotype here.

Fezzik

06-24-2011, 01:01 AM

After finishing off Season 3 of Buffy and watching the first episode of Season 4, I decided to watch the first episode of Angel.

So...its 'Touched By an Angel' (heh, wonder if that was intentional) meets 'Batman?'

Also, the second...Glenn Quinn..isn't that the guy who played Becky's husband on Roseanne?

EDIT: Yes it was! And damn, I didn't know he died. :/

Mara

06-24-2011, 01:22 AM

Also, the second...Glenn Quinn..isn't that the guy who played Becky's husband on Roseanne?

EDIT: Yes it was! And damn, I didn't know he died. :/

Yeah. He was supposed to be a long-term character on Angel, but he couldn't work because of his massive drug abuse. It's really sad.

There's a sadder real-life death on Angel... but I won't tell you about it yet.

Mara

06-24-2011, 01:28 AM

Watching them concurrently is a cool project (you can tell from a number of episodes that you're supposed to watch them together; they inform one another.) However, don't get ahead on Angel because it will spoil Buffy stuff.

Kurosawa Fan

06-29-2011, 08:13 PM

Finished "Same Time, Same Place." Gotta admit, thus far I'm not really digging the vibe this season. I don't like how they're using Spike, I don't like the increased role for Dawn, and I'm even finding Anya fairly bland thus far, something I never thought I'd say. Hopefully things turn around soon.

Mara

06-29-2011, 08:20 PM

Ugh, Dawn. I'm with you there. For the most part, she's pretty annoying in Season 7. (As usual, I like her best not for who she is, but for what she brings out in other people... like Buffy, and Xander, and Spike. Her relationships are more interesting than her character.)

I liked Same Time, Same Place fairly well. It has some nice moments. Gnarl is one of the grossest villains in the series, I think. He creeps me out. I also really like the cross-conversation between Buffy/Xander and Spike, and Willow and Spike in the basement.

Anya has some really interesting things to do in "Selfless," coming up in a couple, and that's followed by two episodes from my favorites list. I'm curious to see what you think of them.

Kurosawa Fan

06-29-2011, 08:37 PM

I liked Same Time, Same Place fairly well. It has some nice moments. Gnarl is one of the grossest villains in the series, I think. He creeps me out. I also really like the cross-conversation between Buffy/Xander and Spike, and Willow and Spike in the basement.

Agreed on the moment in the basement. I don't know, overall I just feel like things are being handled too easily, and yet the show isn't having any fun. I mean, they're pretty much giving Willow a free pass on her past (barely dealing with it outside of a couple moments with Giles and some meditating and thoughtful conversation on her part) yet the tone of the show is dark enough that they could be doing more. If they're going to dive into her descent, do it all the way. If not, where's has the fun gone? It's like they're straddling this weird line between bleak and boring, and I'm having a hard time caring about characters I've grown close to over the past six seasons.

Anya has some really interesting things to do in "Selfless," coming up in a couple, and that's followed by two episodes from my favorites list. I'm curious to see what you think of them.

Well, hopefully things turn around. I'm only three episodes in, so I'm probably being unfair by judging the season too harshly, but I'm just surprised by how little I am invested thus far. It's a very unorthodox feeling for a season of Buffy.

Dead & Messed Up

07-07-2011, 06:56 AM

Finally posted a review of the fifth season. I just got mad, though, because I wanted to type a thousand more words. I could do another article purely on "Fool for Love" or "The Body." But anyway:

What a confident, energetic, bold show Buffy the Vampire Slayer became. Its combination of metaphorical monsters and character arcs and season-long sagas leave me in awe. Individual episodes work wonderfully. Seasons thread together with stunning grace. Special "concept" shows work like pillars, holding up the more traditional stories around them, while, this season especially, Sarah Michelle Gellar displays genuine maturity and wisdom. Episodes like "Fool For Love" and "The Body" and "I Was Made to Love You" show off the creative team's mastery of wit and pathos. It's unfair anymore to simply call this superior genre fare. Buffy's a lot more than that.

The show's so damned good that the creators have no problem introducing the mystery of Buffy's sister, Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg), in the beginning of the season. Wait a second. Buffy's never had a sister up to now, and suddenly Buffy's acting like she and Dawn have been siblings forever. Is this one of those television cheats, like the disappearing sister from Boy Meets World or the inexplicable every-other-episode regular Tori from Saved By the Bell? If not, then just what the hell is going on? To understand fully (and to appreciate the density of this show), you had to pay attention during two key episodes from Season Four: "Superstar" and "Restless." In the former, the nerdy Jonathan built a wall of illusion around Sunnydale so everyone would think he was a superhero. The latter offered a subtler hint to Buffy (and viewers): "be back before dawn."

In a parallel season-long plot, the Scoobies must fend off loathsome mooks who work for Glory (Clare Kramer), a demonic woman with curly hair and killer legs. She wants a talisman called the Key so she can travel between dimensions, but, like crossing the streams, there may be some Armageddony side-effects. This may sound too familiar, given how frequently villains on Buffy need a magical thingy for some doom-laden plot (bonus points if there's a never-before-mentioned prophecy). What makes the arc work is the laser-focus of Glory: she dominates every scene with her desire for the Key. After the previous season's unformed Adam, who spent more time pontificating about his goals than pursuing them, this villain is welcome.

She also functions as a perverse mirror-image of Buffy. The show offered previous "mirrors" of who Buffy might want to be, first with Cordelia the beauty queen, then with Faith the renegade, but Glory lacks the human weakness of those two characters. They hid deeper emotions under their cultivated exteriors. Glory is Glory: a blonde-haired, divinely-powered asskicker. Which also describes Buffy, and there's an element of knowing power to Buffy this season, most memorably examined in "Checkpoint." In this episode, Buffy rejects the patriarchal Watcher Council by pointing out that all they can truly do is watch. As she puts it:

I've had a lot of people talking at me the last few days. Everyone just lining up to tell me how unimportant I am. And I've finally figured out why. Power. I have it. They don't.

However, there have always been two keys to Buffy's success. Her own strength, and the strength of those around her. In Season Three, it became clear that Buffy's friends kept her from leading the lonely life that made Faith so wary and frightened. At the end of Season Four, she literally merged with them...twice. Spiritually in "Primeval," and subconsciously in "Restless." The importance of her family and friends is paramount to Buffy, and the threat of death finally closes its jaws around someone close to her in "The Body." That story disruption powers the remainder of the season, right up to the heartbreaking finale "The Gift," when Buffy must thwart the promise of another close death. Of course, that's the kind of challenge she was born to face.

Recently, I heard someone say that Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn't a horror show, but a show for people who like the idea of horror. This is false (the show is for people who like good story) and borderline irrelevant, but it picks up on something worth noting. Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn't just a horror show. In fact, it's barely a horror show. A long time ago, Joss Whedon and his collaborators shifted from traditional horror fiction into something more complicated. I don't think that any great piece of fiction fits snugly into one genre, and Buffy, with its coming-of-age-horror-fantasy-action-melodrama inclinations, stopped being a "horror show" about the time Angel went bad back in Season Two. Sure, as a 28-year-old horror fan, I feel odd saying that Buffy the Vampire Slayer is great television. But it's true.

RATING: A

Irish

07-07-2011, 07:15 AM

Season five is when Buffy ended. STOP WATCHING NOW. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Winston*

07-07-2011, 09:51 AM

Season five is when Buffy ended. STOP WATCHING NOW. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Season 6 is one of the best.

Mara

07-07-2011, 12:30 PM

Season 6 is one of the best.

This.

Also, season 7 has some problems, but it is unfairly vilified by fans. It is better than its reputation would suggest.

Fezzik

07-07-2011, 02:18 PM

I am in the middle of season 4. The show has reached a nice even pace. Humming along.

I will say, though, "Beer Bad" might be one of the worst episodes of television I've ever seen.

Holy crap was that awful.

I'm also watching Angel here and there. Good show, not as enjoyable as Buffy, though. The interplay between the characters isn't as lively or fun.

Mara

07-07-2011, 02:22 PM

I will say, though, "Beer Bad" might be one of the worst episodes of television I've ever seen.

I have it tied for the worst episode of the series. The other tie is also in season 4, and it is also eye-gougingly awful. I'm not telling you where it is: you have to find it on your own!

I feel about season 4 about the same way I feel about season 7: some great stuff mixed it with some serious flaws. I can't stand the "big bad" of season 4 at all, and I hate Riley.

We all hate Riley.

Riley sucks.

Fezzik

07-07-2011, 02:43 PM

We all hate Riley.

Riley sucks.

That's disconcerting, because I don't - yet. That may mean that he gets worse.

My favorite scene of the season so far involves Spike, Willow and impotence (of a sort). Just hilarious.

Favorite line of the season? This one's easy: "Who's a little fear demon?! Come on, WHO'S A LITTLE FEAR DEMON!?"

I almost fell off my couch.

Mara

07-07-2011, 02:50 PM

That's disconcerting, because I don't - yet. That may mean that he gets worse.

I don't know if he gets worse, but I just find his character endlessly annoying.

My favorite scene of the season so far involves Spike, Willow and impotence (of a sort). Just hilarious.

Yeah, one of the naughtiest conversations on the show, and perfectly played by the two of them. Hilarious.

"Actual size."

Dead & Messed Up

07-07-2011, 03:11 PM

Season five is when Buffy ended. STOP WATCHING NOW. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I'm actually done with the series - I'm just slow to review. And I'm glad I watched to the end. The next two seasons aren't as even, but there's more than enough good stuff to justify the time spent.

ledfloyd

07-07-2011, 05:31 PM

We all hate Riley.

Riley sucks.
speak for yourself.

Glass Co.

07-08-2011, 03:06 AM

Given my last (recent) re-watch of the show, I've gotta say the season 4 finale has now become my favourite episode, so at the least you have that to look forward to, Fezzik.

All in all, 4 is not bad, it's just not up with the peaks. A testament to the show more than an insult to the season.

Kurosawa Fan

07-08-2011, 06:00 PM

"Selfless" was the first good episode of the season. Great ending.

Mara

07-08-2011, 06:06 PM

"Selfless" was the first good episode of the season. Great ending.

Given your Anya feelings, I thought you'd like it. She does some amazing work, and I like where they took her character. (And Buffy's, as well- her relationship with Anya in this episode is borderline disturbing.)

The next two episodes are on my top 35 list. "Him" is a controversial choice, but I think everyone likes "Conversations with Dead People."

As a side note, "Conversations with Dead People" is my favorite episode title in the series, I think.

Mara

07-08-2011, 06:14 PM

By the way, "Selfless" had one of the longest-stretched pay-offs... ever. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but when someone is naughty on BtVS, they always get caught eventually. I don't think anyone has ever gotten away scott-free.

In this episode, they call back to naughtiness that Xander pulled in season 2.

Remember when Willow was trying to restore Angel's soul and told Xander to go find Buffy and let her know? When Xander did find Buffy, he chose not to relay the message, and instead said, "Willow says, 'Kick his ass.'"

If Buffy had known that the soul was being restored, she might have fought differently and not had to kill Angel.

Naughty, naughty Xander.

Anyway, everyone ignored that conversation for five years until this episode.

Buffy: I killed Angel!! Do you even remember that?! I would have given up everything I had to be with... I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life! And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

Willow: And that all worked out OK.

Buffy: Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you! Do you remember giving me Willow's message? "Kick his ass."

Willow [shocked]: I never said that!

Kurosawa Fan

07-08-2011, 09:25 PM

"Him" was awesome. Didn't think it would be when it was centered on Dawn for the first half, but man did it quickly turn into good fun. Season seven needs more episodes like that. I miss fun Buffy.

Lucky

07-09-2011, 12:12 AM

I really like "Help." I guess I'm still alone on that one. It might be a bit obvious with its "you can't help every single person" message, but that's an integral theme in the superhero genre and it's important to Buffy's development this season. Also, the guest actress is top notch.

SPOILER FOR CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAD PPL
Although I would have much preferred seeing Amber Benson come back, I was glad they gave that girl another role.

"Him" would also crack a top list of mine, Mara. A perfect callback to the fluffier episodes of the highschool years. KF, I was hoping S7 would offer more episodes like this as well since the gang had connections to the highschool setting again, but alas, this is about all we get. It gets super dire from here on out.

Kurosawa Fan

07-09-2011, 12:50 AM

Season six is my favorite, and from what I've seen of seven, that isn't going to change.

Mara

07-09-2011, 12:57 AM

"Him" was awesome. Didn't think it would be when it was centered on Dawn for the first half, but man did it quickly turn into good fun. Season seven needs more episodes like that. I miss fun Buffy.

Yay!

I like it mucho.

32. Him (7.6)
Written by Drew Greenberg, Directed by Michael Gershman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy706_710.jpg

Buffy: You realize Anya is probably seducing R.J. even as we speak.

Willow: My god, you think so?

Buffy: Well I wouldn't put it past her, she's recently evil you know.

Willow: Well so am I, why should I miss out?

Summary: RJ, a football player, wears an enchanted varsity jacket that turns women to Jell-O, enchanting Dawn, Buffy, Willow, and Anya.

Why I love it: This might be an unusual choice, so I'm going to give a few reasons.

First of all, I like it for one reason that I've heard used to criticize it: this episode is tonally deeply out of sync with the rest of the season. It feels like a throwback to season 2/3 mentality with silly scenarios and crushes. I like that because season 7 is so unremittingly dark that it's a charming blast-from-the-past that breaks up the impending doom and gloom nicely.

Also, the split-screen scenes are hilarious, and the scene where Principal Wood is listening to music, unaware that Buffy is trying to take him out with a rocket launcher, is a personal favorite.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy706_734.jpg
Pictured: imminent death.

I also like that this is the first and only time that BtVS cashes in on a Hollywood cliché: sexual competition between the female leads. I think it's a myth that this is the norm; most of the women I know abide strictly by the "sisters before misters" mentality. Even when there is some competition on the show for affections (for instance when Willow liked Xander who liked Buffy) the women always defer to each other's feelings to try and keep everyone from being hurt. And I'm glad it's like that. But, MAN ALIVE is it fun to watch, for once, these four women (all quite powerful in thier own ways) go after each other over a smirky little boy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy706_300.jpg

Also, Michelle Trachtenberg gets a chance to dress up like a whore, thus preparing her for the remainder of her career.

Interesting Tidbit:

The song that keeps playing every time a girl looks at RJ is The Theme from A Summer Place. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERbQIvgJXs). Someone on the staff must really like that song... it's referenced the very first time we meet Oz in season 2.

Devon: You gotta admit, the girl is hot!

Oz: Yeah, she's a hot girl.

Devon: Let me guess: not your type? What does a girl have to do to impress you?

Oz: Well, it involves a feathered boa and a theme to 'A Summer Place'. I can't discuss it here.

By the way, a thunder storm totally took my phone line down-- snapped it clean in half-- so there goes my internet access for the weekend, plus they want me to stay home all day on Monday. Lame.

So I'm mooching off the wireless of some poor neighbor. I don't know if I'll be on much.

Kurosawa Fan

07-09-2011, 09:06 PM

It gets super dire from here on out.

Wow. No kidding. "Conversations With Dead People" was about as creepy and dire as the show has ever been. Awesome episode.

Lucky

07-09-2011, 09:25 PM

Wow. No kidding. "Conversations With Dead People" was about as creepy and dire as the show has ever been. Awesome episode.

Indeed.

Random trivia: that's the only episode of Buffy in which Xander does not appear. The original script had The First take the form of Tara when it encounters Willow in the library, but they couldn't work it out with the actress. Too bad, would have been more effective that way.

Kurosawa Fan

07-09-2011, 09:50 PM

"Sleeper" was quality as well. This season is turning around nicely.

Mara

07-09-2011, 09:50 PM

Wow. No kidding. "Conversations With Dead People" was about as creepy and dire as the show has ever been. Awesome episode.

19. Conversations with Dead People (7.7)
Written by Marti Noxon, Drew Goddard, Jane Espenson, and Joss Whedon. Directed by Nick Marck.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy707_619.jpg

DAWN: I cast you out with every prayer from every god that walked the Earth and crawled beneath. I cast you out with the strength of those who love me. I cast your out with the strength I have inside me! I cast you out into the void!

Summary: In five unoverlapping stories:
1. Buffy runs into an old high school buddy, who became a psychology student, then a vampire.
2. Spike picks up a woman at a bar and kills her. (Silent.)
3. Willow runs into Cassie, a girl Buffy failed to save earlier in the year. Cassie claims to have a message from Tara.
4. Jonathan and Andrew come up from Mexico, where they have been hiding. Andrew keeps talking to Warren, who is dead.
5. Dawn is attacked by something in her house that may or may not be her mother.

Why I love it: A fascinating and unusual episode that serves to tie up a number of loose ends, introduce new plotlines, and freak us THE HELL OUT.

As may be expected in an episode with each portion being written by a different person, some storylines work better than others. Considering that I don't find Dawn a particularly interesting character or very talented actress, I think she does a great job in her part. It's effective and wrenching.

Buffy and Holden work very well too. It's low on action and high on therapeutic introspection, but that's not a bad thing. It's also the only storyline that's even remotely amusing.

HOLDEN: Oh, my God!

BUFFY: Oh, your God what?

HOLDEN: Oh, well, you know, not my God, because I defy him and all of his works, but—Does he exist? Is there word on that, by the way?

BUFFY: Nothing solid.

The one that really doesn't work for me is Willow/Cassie. I understand that it was supposed to be Tara, but that's even worse. I can't imagine any scenario where I would have bought that. Too bad, because Alyson acts up a storm.

Interesting Tidbits:

This is the only episode in the entire series where Xander doesn't appear.

I didn't put this in my summation, but one of the female writers in the commentary mentioned that her office is next to the editing room that was editing Dawn's portion of the episode, which she described as "three days of screaming." I thought that was funny.

Mara

07-09-2011, 09:53 PM

"Sleeper" was quality as well. This season is turning around nicely.

At this point, you're pretty much getting into the "real plot" of the seventh season, with fewer stand-alone episodes. Home stretch stuff.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 06:23 PM

"Never Leave Me" had some hilarious moments.

"He's primed. I'll be pumping him in no time."

....

"He'll give us information soon."

-----------------

"I think we need to get him some blood."

"Do you want me to kill Anya?"

-----------------

Man, I definitely miss when the show was more playful and lighthearted.

Mara

07-11-2011, 06:27 PM

Maybe I'm blinded by my love for Andrew, but the scene when he tries to nonchalantly order blood at the butcher shop makes me giggle.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 06:29 PM

Maybe I'm blinded by my love for Andrew, but the scene when he tries to nonchalantly order blood at the butcher shop makes me giggle.

Also good, as was Anya's slap of Xander, and both of their reactions afterward.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 06:54 PM

New girl that came with Giles: (to Willow) "You better not hog the covers."

(shocked stare from Willow)

Dawn: "Does she wanna eat?"

Willow: "Huh? Uh... she's new here."

-------------

Warren: "So how long have you been following Buffy?"
Xander: "I don't follow Buffy. She's my best friend."
Warren: "She seems like a good leader. Her hair is shiny. Does she make you stab things?"

This season is doing a great job of inserting quick laughs amid the chaos.

Mara

07-11-2011, 06:59 PM

Warren: "So how long have you been following Buffy?"
Xander: "I don't follow Buffy. She's my best friend."
Warren: "She seems like a good leader. Her hair is shiny. Does she make you stab things?"

Andrew, not Warren, right?

Andrew kills me. He gets the best lines of Season 7. When you get to "Storyteller"... that's one of my top episodes. It's great.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 07:02 PM

Andrew, not Warren, right?

Andrew kills me. He gets the best lines of Season 7. When you get to "Storyteller"... that's one of my top episodes. It's great.

Crap. Yeah, that's what I meant.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 07:21 PM

Good speech at the end of "Bring on the Night." Could have come off as corny, but SMG pulled it off nicely.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 07:22 PM

Oh, and Angel is coming back, isn't he? I can tell. They can't wrap this up without that mopey jag-off popping up again.

Fezzik

07-11-2011, 08:10 PM

Oh, and Angel is coming back, isn't he? I can tell. They can't wrap this up without that mopey jag-off popping up again.

:pritch:

The more I see of him, the more I'm convinced he's the template Meyer used when creating Edward Cullen.

I'm in the middle of season 4. The last episode I saw gave me vocalized HOLY SHIT moment:

Did Faith and Buffy just switch bodies?!

Mara

07-11-2011, 08:25 PM

Did Faith and Buffy just switch bodies?!

I really enjoy the next episode. Watch it now.

Mara

07-11-2011, 08:31 PM

Oh, and Angel is coming back, isn't he? I can tell. They can't wrap this up without that mopey jag-off popping up again.

It's brief.

Lucky

07-12-2011, 01:27 PM

Good speech at the end of "Bring on the Night." Could have come off as corny, but SMG pulled it off nicely.

Get used to these, General Buffy loves speeches.

Mara

07-12-2011, 01:40 PM

Get used to these, General Buffy loves speeches.

:lol:

Honestly, gentle viewers, these motivating speeches of hers tend to get a little long.

Kurosawa Fan

07-13-2011, 08:10 PM

Yeah, I can already tell that the Buffy lectures are going to get old.

"Showtime" and "Potential" were both good episodes. The pack of girls were fairly annoying throughout, but they can be ignored. Was a bit disappointed about the fight with that super old vamp. Went out way too easy. This season is odd. I'm enjoying it, but can totally see why some hate it.

Oh, and a huge sigh of relief that Dawn wasn't a potential, which not only would have been unbearable, but also led to the fantastic moment with Xander at the end of "Potential."

Mara

07-13-2011, 08:20 PM

I like some of the Potentials well enough... Felicia Day is adorable... but man, do I hate the ones with the phony accents. Terrible.

Kurosawa Fan

07-13-2011, 08:34 PM

I like some of the Potentials well enough... Felicia Day is adorable... but man, do I hate the ones with the phony accents. Terrible.

I meant the group of them constantly whining and complaining about their plight, not them individually as actors or characters.

Mara

07-13-2011, 10:07 PM

"Wah! Wah! I was cursed with superpowers!"

Though, to be fair, B-U-F-F-Y indulges in that sometimes, too.

Fezzik

07-14-2011, 08:11 PM

"Wah! Wah! I was cursed with superpowers!"

Though, to be fair, B-U-F-F-Y indulges in that sometimes, too.

Yeah, but she's kind of earned the right to obsess about that at times.

I'm not far enough into the series to have seen these potentials yet, but if they start in on the "woe is me" BS before having to really do anything, I could see Buffy wanting to stake them for the hell of it.

Oh, and Mara, I watched that next episode you ordered me to, finally. Great stuff. Although, to be honest...

The fact that the body switching got resolved in one episode kinda bummed me out. I know they couldn't have it drag out, but one more episode would have been cool.

Eliza Dushku's impression of SMG doing Buffy was quite spot on and hilarious.

"What's a Stevedore?"

Mara

07-14-2011, 08:14 PM

I'm a fan of SMG doing Eliza Dushku doing Faith. She has the physical mannerisms down pat.

How mean was she to Tara? Jerk.

Fezzik

07-14-2011, 08:24 PM

I'm a fan of SMG doing Eliza Dushku doing Faith. She has the physical mannerisms down pat.

How mean was she to Tara? Jerk.

The scene at the beginning of the episode with her in front of the mirror was great, and her scene with Tara was so well done I wanted to scratch her eyes out.

"So, Willow isn't driving stick anymore?" coming out of SMG's mouth kinda threw me.

Dead & Messed Up

07-15-2011, 06:10 PM

My new co-worker looks kinda like Winifred Burkle. This is both a problem and not a problem.

Mara

07-15-2011, 06:18 PM

My new co-worker looks kinda like Winifred Burkle. This is both a problem and not a problem.

There is no way that can be a problem.

I might have a slight girl-crush on Fred. She is so adorable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/FredBurkle01.jpg

Dead & Messed Up

07-15-2011, 06:48 PM

There is no way that can be a problem.

I predict a 30% drop in workplace productivity on my part.

ledfloyd

07-15-2011, 08:37 PM

fred is right at the top of my list of tv character crushes. i think she has a slight edge on mad men's joan just because she's so damn likable.

Kurosawa Fan

07-15-2011, 08:38 PM

This season is starting to lose me. They're piling it on too thick. They've created an environment where everything that can go wrong, will go wrong, to the point where the results are really predictable. Every moment is supposed to be steeped in danger, yet I don't feel the danger. I feel kind of like I'm watching the same episode over and over. While watching "First Date,"

I knew Principal Wood was good, knew Xander's chick would be evil, knew Spike was the one who killed Wood's mother, etc., etc., etc.

It all just feels really paint-by-numbers, like the season is spinning its wheels while waiting to get to the end. Normally the middle of the season is sprinkled with humorous, flighty episodes that make the waiting fun (or in season six, the stakes were actually high rather than the show just telling me they are high, and therefore I couldn't wait to see how things played out), but since they've ditched those to make way for an agenda in which they're trying to outdo the drama of season six, it just feels like it's dragging on. I feel like I should be coming to the finale, in fact I felt that way after the Buffy speech I applauded, yet I have seven eight episodes yet to watch (I typed seven, then figured it would be even longer just because of how this season feels right now, and sure enough, I was off by one). I mean, The First has spent the entire season doing the same thing over and over.

Outside of torturing Spike, the only thing The First has done is inhabit dead people to manipulate those around Buffy and the Potentials (someone use that name for a band).

I don't know, it's not like I'm on the verge of giving up or anything, it just doesn't feel as inspired and as captivating as previous seasons.

Qrazy

07-15-2011, 10:16 PM

Yeah, it's crappy. It's too bad too because The First is a great villain in theory but they totally squandered it.

Mara

07-16-2011, 11:33 AM

I don't know, it's not like I'm on the verge of giving up or anything, it just doesn't feel as inspired and as captivating as previous seasons.

I think you've put a finger on some of the main problems, here. Also-- this is a legitimate complaint, and I've heard it often-- it's ridiculous to introduce twenty new characters in the final season. I like the idea of the Potentials storyline, but here at the end of all things, I wish we could have spent more time with our friends, the ones we've followed for so long.

Like season four, I think season seven is good for its exceptions, instead of its overall content.

You're coming up on "Storyteller", which could very well be described as one of those "humorous, flighty episodes that make the waiting fun." It has some darkness, but it's a welcome breather episode.

I'm curious to see what you think of the series finale. I love it (it's in my top ten) but there are plenty of people here that really disliked it.

Lucky

07-17-2011, 02:38 AM

If it's any consolation, I feel that "First Date" is the last filler ep of the show. You're about to enter the final stretch.

Also, I think you'll start enjoying it more once Nathan Fillion's character is introduced. Can't remember exactly when that is though.

Thirdmango

07-20-2011, 10:24 PM

So I stopped watching this show about near the end of season 3 about a year ago. Basically being as how it's a monster of the week show, I had figured that much like shows like Bones or House or something like that, I could multitask the show and do something else while watching Buffy. Well finally I decided to start rewatching from the beginning of the third season, and this time if I did multitask it was something like Civ 2 or Poker where I didn't have to put in much brain power so that Buffy was the first priority. When doing that it became a much better show. Basically what I'm saying is this show is actually a lot meatier then it's outward appearance would suggest it is. Thus I actually really liked the first 8 or so episodes.

Mara

07-20-2011, 11:20 PM

Basically what I'm saying is this show is actually a lot meatier then it's outward appearance would suggest it is.

I think that's a valid observation. Also, I think around season 3 the show really hits its groove and becomes a little deeper and more thoughtful. (And, during seasons 5-6, it gets exponentially darker.)

Glad you're giving it another shot.

Fezzik

07-21-2011, 06:11 PM

And boom goes the Initiative (and season 4)!

I liked the arc and I liked how it ended - with everyone in the gang being important after Spike tried to pull the Yoko on them.

I could have done without* the episode that basically boiled down to "The kids' ghosts are attacking because they're feeding off Buffy and Riley's sexual escapades." :rolleyes:

Im glad the initiative arc is done, though. They spent a lot of time on it and needed to move on to something else.

"Restless" was a bit strange. The initial appearance by the First, and the dreams were just out there. After the closing of the Initiative arc, it felt weird that this was the season finale.

In closing:

"Xander, just because this isn't going to work is no reason to be negative."

On to Season 5!

Mara

07-21-2011, 06:14 PM

I could have done with the episode that basically boiled down to "The kids' ghosts are attacking because they're feeding off Buffy and Riley's sexual escapades." :rolleyes:

That's my tied-for-least-favorite episode. You found it!

"Restless" was a bit strange. The initial appearance by the First, and the dreams were just out there. After the closing of the Initiative arc, it felt weird that this was the season finale.

I love, love, love "Restless."

On to Season 5!

My favorite season. Can't wait to see what you think.

Mara

07-21-2011, 06:28 PM

My write-up on Restless. I've posted it before, but eh. It's my 5th favorite Buffy of all time.

5. Restless (4.22)
Written & Directed by Joss Whedon

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy422_047.jpg

GILES: I know who you are. And I can defeat you ... with my intellect. I ... can cripple you with my thoughts. Of course, you underestimate me. You couldn't know. You never had a Watcher.

Summary: Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander fall asleep. This turns out to be a bad idea.

Why I love it: This is the episode most steeped in the mythology of BtVS. It's beautiful and disorienting and symbolic and funny and creepy. It's also deeply prescient and foreshadows so many events that it reads like a cheat sheet to the next three seasons. Seriously. If you haven't rewatched it recently, try it again and see how many of these set-ups are eventually payed off.

It's also a genuine relief to have at the end of the fourth season. I think most of us would agree that the meta-story of the fourth season, the "Big Bad", is seriously weak. We aren't interested in Adam. We aren't interested in the Initiative. As avid watchers of the show, we know that Buffy will defeat them and so we're spinning our wheels waiting for the next season.

Except.

This time, the Big Bad is defeated in the penultimate episode. I watched the entire BtVS series on DVD, and I was afraid I'd made a mistake. Had I skipped an episode? Why was there still another one to watch?

But the break in formula is fantastic. Plenty of shows try to show people's dreams (this show did, back in season 1 with "Nightmares") but writers rarely try to accurately reflect dream-sequences and dream-logic because it makes little sense to our rational mind.

Joss doesn't let that stop him. The atmosphere of the dream-state, with its inconsistencies, anxieties, desires and confusion play out beautifully.

Interesting Tidbits:

[HEAVILY EDITED FOR SPOILERS]

When Buffy rips off Willow's clothes, the outfit she is wearing is exactly the same as the one she wore in the first episode, Welcome to the Hellmouth (1x01).

Buffy: (she looks at the clock, which reads 7:30) It's so late.
Tara: Oh ... that clock's completely wrong.
These numbers were mentioned in the episode Graduation Day (2) (3x22). At that time they foretold that there were 730 days until a major event. That would mean that there is about a year left, so the "time" is, in fact, wrong.

Buffy: Faith and I just made that bed.
A reference to Buffy's vision/dream in the episode This Year's Girl (4x15).

Mara

07-23-2011, 04:37 PM

Finished Buffy Season 8.

It was CRACKED OUT. It's crazy. It's completely, bat-shit insane. I'm not sure if I have words for how completely mental it was.

Fezzik

07-25-2011, 03:45 PM

Finished Buffy Season 8.

It was CRACKED OUT. It's crazy. It's completely, bat-shit insane. I'm not sure if I have words for how completely mental it was.

The comic? Yeah, I read about it. Bat-shit insane is a perfect description of it. I thought for sure when i was going over it that it was some crazy fan-fic inspired story, but Whedon was behind it all.

Kurosawa Fan

07-25-2011, 05:52 PM

Mara

07-25-2011, 05:56 PM

I really liked "Storyteller." It had some hilarious moments, especially Andrew's vision of he, Warren, and Jonathan as gods. Making fun of Buffy's speeches, the character intros, Andrew having memorized Xander and Anya's conversation, etc. All great moments.

Yay for Storyteller! I pretty much adore Andrew. He climbs up my favorite character list in Season 7, particularly whenever he interacts with Anya.

My write-up:

10. Storyteller (7.16)
Written by Jane Espenson, Directed by Marita Grubiak

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy716_007.jpg

ANDREW: Honestly, gentle viewers, these motivating speeches of hers tend to get a little long. I'll take you back in there in—in a little while, but in the in-between time, I thought you might want to know a little about me, your humble host. You see, I am a man with a burden. A man with a dark past. You see, I was once a super villain.

Summary: History starts repeating itself in bad ways at Sunnydale High because of the partially-opened hellmouth. Meanwhile, Andrew, who partially opened the hellmouth, tries to make a documentary about Buffy, Slayer of the Vampyres.

Why I love it: I love Andrew. I LOVE HIM. He's hilarious, of course, but he's also fascinating in the way he always rewrites history to emphasize the dramatic and emotional. He has a way of cutting through to what nobody else is talking about (like when he confronts Xander on camera about jilting Anya at the altar.) At the same time, he often glosses over events or motivations that make him uncomfortable.

This drives Buffy et al crazy because they want him to face up, honestly, to the things he's done. But Andrew just feels he's making the world more interesting.

Some glimpses into Andrew's world:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy716_100.jpg

ANDREW: She's like a woman fighting for more than life. She fights like fighting is her life. It's like the air she breathes, and she knows she will win because there is no alternative.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy716_430.jpg
WE ARE GODS, WE ARE AS GODS, WE ARE AS GOOOOOOOODS!

See? Fun.

But Buffy has to give him a little violence therapy into admitting his own mistakes so that he can emotionally atone for them.

ANDREW: So, this is my redemption at last? I buy back my bruised soul with the blood of my heart. But-but not enough to kill—

BUFFY: Stop! Stop telling stories. Life isn't a story.

ANDREW: Sorry. Sorry.

BUFFY: Shut up. You always do this. You make everything into a story so no one's responsible for anything because they're just following a script.

Interesting Tidbits:

This is the episode where Andrew decides he's going to die at the final fight, because, in the story in his head, that's poetic justice.

ANDREW: Here's the thing. I killed my best friend. There's a big fight coming, and I don't know what's going to happen. I don't even think I'm going to live through it. That's, uh, probably the way it should be. I guess I'm—

He looks at the camera, sighs, points the remote control, presses a button, and turns it off.

[EDITED FOR SPOILERS]

Kurosawa Fan

07-25-2011, 06:03 PM

Nice write-up. Andrew has definitely been one of the few highlights this season. He steals just about every scene he's in.

Mara

07-25-2011, 06:11 PM

Nice write-up. Andrew has definitely been one of the few highlights this season. He steals just about every scene he's in.

Did we pass the episode where he says he's not a hostage, he's a guest-age? Because I swear to you, I crack up every time at that one.

Kurosawa Fan

07-25-2011, 06:15 PM

Did we pass the episode where he says he's not a hostage, he's a guest-age? Because I swear to you, I crack up every time at that one.

Yep, that was a couple episodes ago, when Principal Wood first comes to see Buffy's base of operations.

Lucky

07-25-2011, 07:37 PM

Although I like Storyteller, I don't understand all this Andrew love goin on. I find him grating more than amusing. He's one of those characters I refer to when I complain about Season 7 losing focus on the relationships of the main core.

Raiders

07-26-2011, 05:24 PM

Good idea on Teefury today, but rather mediocre execution... and I would never wear something so friggin' red.

Mara

07-26-2011, 05:31 PM

Good idea on Teefury today, but rather mediocre execution... and I would never wear something so friggin' red.

I'm okay with the red, but I think it's kind of ugly.

And as regards Andrew, I think he's one of those characters like Anya, where you either love or you don't, and both sides are baffled by the others. (I love both, of course.)

Fezzik

07-26-2011, 05:38 PM

Good idea on Teefury today, but rather mediocre execution... and I would never wear something so friggin' red.

Agreed. The red kinda kills it for me. Great idea, though.

Personally, I'd love to see a design that represents the 'coat-of-arms' for the family name "Summers" - make it a shield split into quadrants with different things in each (a stake, a cross, a crossbow, etc) with a sparkly umbrella as the "crest" animal.

If I could draw, I'd make it myself.

Lucky

07-26-2011, 07:15 PM

People dislike Anya? You're right, I don't understand that either.

Ezee E

07-26-2011, 11:03 PM

I know nothing of the show, but love that shirt.

Mara

07-26-2011, 11:08 PM

I know nothing of the show, but love that shirt.

Waaaaatch it.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

Ezee E

07-26-2011, 11:21 PM

Waaaaatch it.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
Ha. I don't know. It's hard for me to watch network TV because it feels like reading a Goosebumps story. Each commercial break leads to a mini-cliffhanger.

WB Shows especially.

I realize I am stereotyping, but Buffy has always looked like one of those shows to me. What is it that I am missing out on? (Besides some hot Gellarness, Lucky).

Mara

07-26-2011, 11:29 PM

I realize I am stereotyping, but Buffy has always looked like one of those shows to me. What is it that I am missing out on? (Besides some hot Gellarness, Lucky).

It starts off really silly and formulaic, and then over the first couple of seasons it evolves into something really unusual and fascinating.

Mara

07-26-2011, 11:30 PM

And there are a number of attractive women on it.

Lucky

07-27-2011, 02:57 AM

Ha. I don't know. It's hard for me to watch network TV because it feels like reading a Goosebumps story. Each commercial break leads to a mini-cliffhanger.

WB Shows especially.

I realize I am stereotyping, but Buffy has always looked like one of those shows to me. What is it that I am missing out on? (Besides some hot Gellarness, Lucky).

As Mara mentioned, there are a plethora of hot women on the show aside from Gellar. Faith and Cordelia alone rival her.

I guess I can see your hesitation above applying to the first season of the show, but Buffy doesn't rely on cliffhangers very often (is this fanboy me talking, or would you others back me on this?). Once it hits its stride, this show knows how to end episodes the perfect way...complete, thematically relevant, and balancing that fine line between poignant and mushy.

But Buffy's biggest selling point for me? Sure, there are shows like The Wire and Deadwood which are better crafted and more solid, but Buffy has more heart than all of them. You grow to love this cast of characters more than any other show that I have ever seen. That's why I can look past the campy elements that make me cringe sometimes, the supernatural metaphor that doesn't quite work or is too blatant, the misplaced, awkward sci-fi quote, etc. That's part of the show, too, but some of the best scenes in Buffy are when the core is gathered in the same room simply rattling off dialogue. It's beyond charming, it's an element that's rare in ANY artistic medium. And television allows it to grow and develop in you for years.

That's another point I want to bring up which makes this show so unique - its evolution is unparalleled. I can't think of another show out there where the characters change this drastically and naturally over the course of the series. Episode 1.1 - enter Buffy as an insecure, reluctant hero. Episode 7.22 - enter Buffy the worldbearing, weary general at war. And it's not just Buffy. I'd actually argue (and I'm sure Mara would, too) that Willow's transformation arc is even more sharply drawn. There's a whole list of characters like this throughout the course of the show. The line between good and evil is rarely black and white throughout the series, and redemption is one of its deepest running themes.

Fitting nicely into the evolution comment, I want to bring up the myriad of tones the show utilizes. The show is impossible to peg. At its core, I guess I would label it "Supernatural Drama", but that's not to say some episodes sway more to comedy, horror, action, or epic fantasy. Oddly enough, this insane juggling act never feels forced or choppy. It feels fresh and original. Look at two of the show's most heralded episodes "Hush" and "Once More, with Feeling." The former thrusts our characters into a setting where half of the episode is in silence while the latter is a balls-out song and dance extravaganza. Seriously, what other show? Watching the show evolve from a horror-comedy in its first year to dire epic fantasy in its seventh is quite astonishing when you look back at the series as a whole. As the characters mature, so do the themes, and the comedy is scaled back to accomodate the drama appropriately. Again, this all happens very naturally, but it makes each season a very distinct flavor where in other shows the years tend to blend together.

Well, wow, I wasn't expecting to answer in novel form, but there you have it. I would definitely encourage you to try it out, but I don't think you'll stick around if you watch it straight through so let me offer you two suggestions...

1) Start with Season 1 but only watch the two-part premiere (ok), "Angel" (essential storyline episode, good), and "Prophecy Girl" (a solid gauge of the quality yet to come, but nowhere near the best). If after those you find yourself at all intrigued, keep going through Season 2 (feel free to skip "Some Assembly Required", "Inca Mummy Girl", "Reptile Boy", "Ted", and "Bad Eggs") and then by midseason the show will firmly land with its feet on the ground. If you don't appreciate "Surprise/Innocence" and "Passion" (one of my top 10 eps), then this isn't your bag but you've given the show a fair shake.

Or...my less recommended route as you'll be missing major backstory, but this is how I got one of my friends hooked on the show immediately.

2) Start with Season 3 and plow on through.

Following the first option you won't miss out on any major plot developments. All of the episodes I elected you to skip are filler episodes which plague the first 1.5 seasons.

I never get tired of hearing about people's thoughts going through this show for the first time, so if you do decide to take the plunge you have to fill us in...in detail.

Ezee E

07-27-2011, 04:01 AM

We'll see! Is it on instant watch?

Lucky

07-27-2011, 04:12 AM

We'll see! Is it on instant watch?

All 144 episodes.

Mara

07-27-2011, 10:25 AM

Personally, I don't recommend skipping season 1 episodes, even though they are (mostly) pretty lame. They introduce some interesting characters and begin the development which pays off later. (And it's only 12 episodes!) Although the first handful of episodes in season 2 has the same problems, the second half is some really great, important stuff.

But Lucky's right about how endearing the show is, and how fearless it is about game-changing. I think Buffy really paved the way for shows that are willing to kill off major characters, and have the heroes make really terrible choices. At the same time, it's not a pessimistic show-- the characters are always trying to find their morality, and they are always seeking redemption.

And, especially from mid-season-2 onward, it has some excellent writing.

We always playfully argue about which characters change the most over the course of the series, but the truth is that all of them change dramatically. They change as much as any human person would change in seven years (especially as much as people change between 15 and 22.) They change physically, they change emotionally, they get better, they get worse.

Kurosawa Fan

07-27-2011, 06:22 PM

"Lies My Parents Told Me" was actually pretty good. Not sure I buy Giles doing something like that behind Buffy's back, and getting himself caught up in personal revenge as well. The Giles I know is smarter than that.

Also, I'm kinda ehhh on the idea that Spike's entire demonic personality stems from mommy issues, and was sorta dreading the episode playing out, but I actually thought they pulled it off without too much melodrama.

Mara

07-27-2011, 06:47 PM

Also, I'm kinda ehhh on the idea that Spike's entire demonic personality stems from mommy issues, and was sorta dreading the episode playing out, but I actually thought they pulled it off without too much melodrama.

I'd go ahead and say that I disliked this episode, for the Spike flashback alone. I have a whole thing about how this exemplifies the wrong turns that the writers make with Spike's character, but I'm putting a pin in it until I'm less sick, because I keep looking at the word "exemplifies" and I'm not sure that I a) spelled it correctly and that it is b) a real word I didn't make up, and that means NAP TIME.

Principal Wood in the green tank top is the hawtness.

Oh, and the next episode is on my list. Yay.

Kurosawa Fan

07-27-2011, 07:42 PM

Nathan Fillion! An uber-brief appearance by Rachel Bilson!

Xander loses an eye!

Crazy episode, and I finally felt like the gang was truly in danger. Took this season long enough.

Kurosawa Fan

07-27-2011, 08:44 PM

:lol:

Spike and Andrew's conversation about the bloomin' onion might be one of my favorite moments in the entire series. I'm still laughing.

Kurosawa Fan

07-27-2011, 08:57 PM

:lol:

Spike and Andrew's conversation about the bloomin' onion might be one of my favorite moments in the entire series. I'm still laughing.

And it came in one of the worst episodes of the season. :frustrated:

Mara

07-27-2011, 10:00 PM

Nathan Fillion! An uber-brief appearance by Rachel Bilson!

Xander loses an eye!

Crazy episode, and I finally felt like the gang was truly in danger. Took this season long enough.

34. Dirty Girls (7.18)
Written by Drew Goddard, Directed by Michael Gershman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy718_278-1.jpg

CALEB: Now, I know what you're thinking. Crazy preacher man spoutin' off at the mouth about the whore of Babylon or some-such. That ain't me. I'm not here to lecture you. I mean, what's the point? My words just curdle in your ears. Wouldn't take in a thing. Head's filled with so much filth that ain't no room for words of truth. Well, you know what you are, Shannon? Dirty.

SHANNON: What? I'm not! What're—

CALEB: Now, now, now. There's no blame here. You were born dirty, born without a soul. Born with that gaping maw wants to open up, suck out a man's marrow. Makes me puke to think too hard on it.

Summary: As Faith returns to Sunnydale to help on the side of the white hats, The First debuts its main player-- Caleb the psychotic preacher. Some of the Potentials get slaughtered and Xander loses an eye.

Why I love it: Several reasons. First of all, it's a game-changer in terms of upping the stakes and introducing a deeply scary character in Caleb.

But there are also some very funny and human moments, particularly involving Faith-- and, let's face it, I love me some Faith. First of all, there's the deeply fantastic montage where Andrew tells her narrative as an action packed adventure! Which ends with her fighting a Vulcan. Which is awesome.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/buffy718_317.jpg

We also get this really, really funny scene between Faith and Spike. It's not as funny just reading it. You have to find it and watch it. For realsies.

FAITH: Whatcha wanna do to her, vamp? Huh? Somethin' like this? (punches Spike)

SPIKE: Nice punch you got there. Lemme guess. Leather pants, nice right cross, doe eyes, holier-than-thou glower...you must be Faith.

FAITH: Oh, goodie. I'm famous.

SPIKE: Told you were coming. Bit of a misunderstanding here. I'm—

FAITH: Spike. Yeah, we've met before.

SPIKE: We have? I don't think we— (Faith kicks Spike in the torso) Bloody hell! What're you doing? I'm on your side.

FAITH: Yeah? Maybe you haven't heard. I've reformed. (punches Spike)

SPIKE: So have I. (punches Faith) I reformed way before you did. (Faith punches Spike) Stop... (punches Faith) hitting... (punches Faith again) me! We're on the same side.

FAITH: Please. You think I'm stupid?

SPIKE: Well, yeah.

FAITH: You were attacking that girl. (punches Spike)

Someone punches Faith in the face, knocking her down. Pan over to show it's Buffy.

BUFFY: Sorry, Faith. I didn't realize that was you.

FAITH: It's all right, B. Luckily, you still punch like you used to.

BUFFY: (glares at Faith a moment, then turns to Spike) You OK?

SPIKE: Yeah. Terrific.

FAITH: Are you protecting vampires? Are you the bad slayer now? Am I the good slayer now?

BUFFY: He's with me. He has a soul.

FAITH: Oh, he's like Angel?

SPIKE: No.

BUFFY: Sort of.

SPIKE: I am nothing like Angel.

BUFFY: He fights on my side. (shrugs, looks at Faith) Which is more than I can say for some of us.

FAITH: Yeah, well if he's so good, what's he doing chasing down defenseless—

The young woman that Spike was chasing stands up, growls, and attacks Faith, knocking her down.

BUFFY: (points to the young woman) That's one of the bad guys.

FAITH: You should make 'em wear a sign.

Interesting Tidbits:

If you ever get a chance to watch the commentary on this with Drew Goddard and Nicholas Brennan, it's really interesting. Drew has some cool stuff to say about how men perceive women in this episode (Caleb with the girls, Xander with his fantasies about the Potentials coming on to him, etc.)

You're getting very close to the end, here, which is controversial. I totally love it (it's in my top ten), Qrazy hated it, Lucky has reservations, etc. I'm curious what you'll think.

Lucky

07-27-2011, 10:01 PM

You pegged my main reservation about "Lies My Parents Told Me" with how they wrote Giles in that episode. It's also very unfortunate because if I'm not mistaken, that's the last scene in the series that Buffy and Giles share together alone.

I remember disliking "Empty Places" when it first aired on television, but I've grown to like it with subsequent viewings. In my memory it serves as the episode where SMG is obviously ill, which actually does her service as she delivers her final lines to Faith. Sends a chill down my spine. Also another great Anya moment with her biting jab about luck. The Dawn part always makes me roll my eyes hard, though.

Lucky

07-27-2011, 10:03 PM

You're getting very close to the end, here, which is controversial. I totally love it (it's in my top ten), Qrazy hated it, Lucky has reservations, etc. I'm curious what you'll think.

I think my expectations were unfair. I'm definitely more on the like and satisfied side, just not in the love category.

Kurosawa Fan

07-28-2011, 02:28 AM

Okay, that axe is badass. Seriously.

Kurosawa Fan

07-28-2011, 03:10 AM

Ugh. Not happy with the final few minutes of "End of Days," obviously. I hate him soooo, so much.

Kurosawa Fan

07-28-2011, 03:54 AM

Series. Completed.

More thoughts to come, but not until tomorrow.

Mara

07-28-2011, 12:36 PM

My thoughts:

4. Chosen (7.22)
Written & Directed by Joss Whedon

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/Chosen799.jpg

Buffy: From now on, every girl in the world who might be a slayer, will be a slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power, can stand up, will stand up. Slayers, every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?

Summary: The final episode of the series. Sunnydale goes kablooie.

Why I love it: You know the expression: "ended with a bang"? Is there an expression... bigger than that? Like, "ended with a RAT-A-TAT-TAT WHIZZ-BANG HOLY-CRAP AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGH!!!!" Because Buffy ended like that.

The final episode of Buffy is awesome, bordering perhaps on perfect. In a true circle-of-life moment, we go back to Sunnydale High School, where this all started. Everyone runs off to their positions, and we are left with our Core Four, just like always. There's ups and downs and triumph and tears and sacrifice and courage and I love it.

(With due respect, the first bit with Angel and the "I'm cookie dough" speech are sort of twee and hokey. But it plays out well, because it gives Spike a chance to be jealous, which is always fun.)

Yeah. I like it.

If you end up with an hour to kill, you should read my Buffy paper!

http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=757

Fezzik

07-28-2011, 02:20 PM

I finally got around to starting season five, and I dunno if I dig the inclusion of Dawn yet.

Mara

07-28-2011, 02:26 PM

I finally got around to starting season five, and I dunno if I dig the inclusion of Dawn yet.

How far are you?

Fezzik

07-28-2011, 05:17 PM

How far are you?

Two episodes in, I think. Just watched the one where

Harmony kidnaps Dawn in an attempt to get Buffy, only to have Buffy pretty much roll over her crew.

Mara

07-28-2011, 05:20 PM

Two episodes in, I think. Just watched the one where

Harmony kidnaps Dawn in an attempt to get Buffy, only to have Buffy pretty much roll over her crew.

I gotcha. Season 5 tests the patience with Dawn. It is not... instantly explained.

By the way, LATER-SERIES BONUS in the episode you mention. One of Harmony's crew is played by Tom Lenk, who eventually comes back and plays Andrew, a major character. It's funny in retrospect.

Mara

07-28-2011, 05:22 PM

By the way, LATER-SERIES BONUS in the episode you mention. One of Harmony's crew is played by Tom Lenk, who eventually comes back and plays Andrew, a major character. It's funny in retrospect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/50046_1202198837567_full.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/AndrewWells.jpg

Mara

07-28-2011, 05:24 PM

They also do that with Cecily, a minor character in Spike's flashback in Fool for Love, who is played by the same actress who later plays the recurring role of Halfrek. They tease that it may be the same character, but never say it out loud.

Kurosawa Fan

07-29-2011, 12:09 AM

So...

I liked it, but with some major reservations. The finale, that is. Didn't care for the season overall. I'll spoiler my thoughts, just to be safe:

I HATED Anya's death, not only the fact that she was sacrificed as some sort of emotional poignancy for the show, but that the emotion rang hollow because a) I wasn't sure she was dead after the reappearance of Principal Wood, and b) once I knew she was dead, it was just brushed aside with a quick back and forth between Xander and Andrew. It should have been given more than that. Her character deserved more than that. I thought that was a pretty cheap move.

I'm really disappointed in the inconsistency of The First. It seems to be fairly omnipotent, popping up wherever it desires, interfering as it feels necessary, always knowing Buffy's next move (such as the knowledge that she would pass by Caleb after acquiring the axe to go save her friends, even though one swing at that point would have chopped off his terrified head on her way out the door), yet The First was completely taken by surprise by Buffy's plan to unleash the power in every Potential, even though she held multiple meetings about the plan in her home, a place often frequented by this so-called incredible evil. Worst baddy since Adam. Also, Buffy was stabbed through the abdomen, yet the injury goes from incapacitating and possibly fatal to a non-issue after a bit of taunting from The First. Huh?

Despite those complaints, and the awful decision to have Buffy thrown out of her own home just to give Spike an excuse to confess his love and admiration for her and have them sleep together, the two-part finale was satisfying in the way it completed Buffy's arc. It was a satisfying conclusion for Willow, to beat back the demons of her past and find peace in her power. It was a satisfying conclusion for Spike. I thought that played really well as his moment of true redemption, while staying true to his character. His death was unexpected, but definitely an appropriate end to his character, as well as his relationship with Buffy. It was a satisfying conclusion to Sunnydale, which came to the only conclusion possible in order to feel like the evil there had truly been snuffed out. It had poignant moments, funny lines sprinkled throughout, and it felt like a Buffy finale in spirit, even when it failed at logic (something that, frankly, has escaped Buffy finales fairly consistently).

So yeah, it's a bit sad that I don't have more episodes to look forward to while eating lunch at work, but with the way season seven went, I'm glad it came to an end. I'd hate to see it spiral even further.

A quick examination of my feelings on the series would have me ranking the seasons as follows: 6>5>3>2>4>1>7. That ranking is completely off the top of my head, and is subject to radical changes in the middle, though I don't think my top or bottom will ever change.

Winston*

07-29-2011, 01:20 AM

Are you gonna watch Angel, KF?

Mara

07-29-2011, 01:33 AM

Good thoughts. I agree about

Anya. She deserved more of a send-off. Spike plays the hero, and she sort of disappears in the fray. I love love LOVE that scene with her and Andrew in the hospital, when she talks about her willingness to die with the "stupid humans." That, to me, is the perfect culmination of her entire arc.

So...
6>5>3>2>4>1>7.

I wouldn't put season 7 below season 1, but mine wouldn't be that different. I change it based on whims. I'd probably go:

5>6>3>2>4>7>1

MAYBE.

Mara

07-29-2011, 01:35 AM

Are you gonna watch Angel, KF?

Considering how much he hates Angel, I doubt it.

:lol:

Which is too bad, because it has some of Whedon's best characters. And some of the writing is great. But SOME of the writing is just completely cracked out.

Kurosawa Fan

07-29-2011, 01:36 AM

Are you gonna watch Angel, KF?

Not a chance.

Dead & Messed Up

07-29-2011, 03:10 AM

I would say 5 > 3 > 6 > 2 > 7 > 4 > 1 myself.

ledfloyd

07-29-2011, 07:27 AM

since we're playing this game again 5/3 > 4 > 2 > 6 > 7 > 1

and i would like to state again that i was tired of angel by the time he left buffy but after i gave in and watched his show, its best seasons (2, 3 and 5) are nearly as good as buffy's high points. and in the case of season 5 equal to/possibly better than.

Lucky

07-29-2011, 11:42 AM

I've only seen the first two seasons of Angel with a handful of episodes from Season 5, but I wouldn't put them in the same comparison chart to Buffy. Angel is as wildly inconsistent as Buffy at its worst. Problem is Angel's cast isn't nearly as likable, so the whole ordeal feels like it drags and drags. I appreciate that they didn't simply try to make a Buffy clone, though. The show really does have its own vision and tone.

Fezzik

07-29-2011, 03:08 PM

I gotcha. Season 5 tests the patience with Dawn. It is not... instantly explained.

Well, Dawn's been explained now...um...holy shit?

I couldn't quite make out the entire conversation between Buffy and the dying monk. I know Dawn is a key..and its a key to..something. Did he specify what? His "i'm dying" voice made it hard to understand everything

Still though. Great development. I also laughed heartily at Spike's dream *cough*

Mara

07-29-2011, 03:12 PM

I couldn't quite make out the entire conversation between Buffy and the dying monk. I know Dawn is a key..and its a key to..something. Did he specify what? His "i'm dying" voice made it hard to understand everything

The internet knows all. Transcript:

EXT. FACTORY - NIGHT

Buffy and the Monk, looking like two soldiers in a combat field, make their way toward the factory entrance. Buffy's supporting the Monk as he staggers alongside her. She hesitates, hearing the rumble of the roof collapsing. Takes a moment to look back.

MONK
Stop. Please...

She relents, letting him rest a moment.

BUFFY
We gotta keep moving.

MONK
My journey's done, I think.

BUFFY
(tough soldier)
Don't get metaphory on me.
We're going.

Buffy tries pulling him to his feet. Nothing doing.

MONK
You have to... The Key.
You must protect The Key.

BUFFY
Protect the Key. Right. I know,
we'll do it together! Far, far
from here.

Buffy tries again, sees she's not moving him anywhere.

MONK
Many have... died... many more, if
you don't... keep it safe...

BUFFY
How? What is it?

MONK
The Key is energy. It's a portal.
It opens the door...

BUFFY
That round glowy thing?

MONK
(shakes his head)
For centuries it had no form at
all. My brethren... its only
keepers. Then...

He tries to point back to the factory.

MONK
The abomination... found us. We
had to hide The Key... Gave it
form. Molded it flesh, made it
human. And sent it to you.

Buffy puts pieces together...

BUFFY
Dawn.

MONK
(nods)
She is The Key.

Long beat as Buffy absorbs this.

BUFFY
You put that thing in my home.

MONK
We knew the Slayer would... protect...

BUFFY
My memories... my mom's...

MONK
We built them.

BUFFY
Then unbuild them.
This is my life you're --

A coughing fit cuts her off. He's clearly fading.

MONK
You cannot... abandon...

BUFFY
I didn't ask for this. I don't
even know what... what is she?

MONK
Human. Human, now, and helpless.
Please, she is... an innocent in
this, and she needs you.

Buffy looks at him and for a moment he is totally clear, focused on her.

BUFFY
She's not my sister.

MONK
She doesn't know that.

Fezzik

07-29-2011, 04:25 PM

Sweet. Thanks, Mara. So they weren't specific. That's fine. More time for questions.

I love the last line. "She doesn't know that." Wow...Poor Dawn.

Fezzik

08-01-2011, 06:04 PM

"Fool For Love" might be my new favorite episode. It's definitely top 5.

Of course, anything Spike is awesome.

I just watched "Blood Ties" as well. Trachtenberg has really added a lot to the show. Who knew?

This season has been fantastic so far.

Xander's setting Buffy in her place was pretty great (in the episode where Riley leaves), but I can't say I'll miss Riley at all...what a freaking self-absorbed idiot.

And...I don't remember the name of the episode, but the scene where Buffy basically tells off the council was freaking awesome. I love Xander's "that was excellent" line after the sword throw/"i believe I said no interruptions" combo, as well as Giles' coughed 'retroactive.'

Mara

08-01-2011, 06:11 PM

"Fool for Love" made my top list, as did "Checkpoint," which is the one with the council. Actually, the latter is fantastic. I love the cut-shot montage of all the Scoobies explaining how they do-or-not help the Slayer.

"We're friends."

"Good friends."

"Girlfriends."

"Lovers! We're lesbian, gay-type lovers!"

:lol:

I can't say I'll miss Riley at all...what a freaking self-absorbed idiot.

I know some people on the boards think he gets a bad rap, but I find Riley so boring and ill-conceived that I can barely stand it. I think a better actor may have sold it, but Blucas is dull as dirt.

Fezzik

08-01-2011, 06:56 PM

"Fool for Love" made my top list, as did "Checkpoint," which is the one with the council. Actually, the latter is fantastic. I love the cut-shot montage of all the Scoobies explaining how they do-or-not help the Slayer.

"We're friends."

"Good friends."

"Girlfriends."

"Lovers! We're lesbian, gay-type lovers!"

:lol:

That scene made me smile because it reminded me of a scene from an early episode of Firefly ("Bushwhacked") where the crew is being interrogated by the Alliance.

"You fought with Captain Reynolds in the war?"

"I fought with a lot of people in the war."

"And your husband?"

"Fight with him sometimes, too."

Lucky

08-01-2011, 08:17 PM

S5 of Buffy is the pinnacle of television for me. "Fool for Love" would also make my top 10 list, but there are two more episodes from this year that I'd rank higher. They're my #1 and #2 favorites of the entire series as well.

Mara

08-01-2011, 08:19 PM

Mara

08-01-2011, 08:20 PM

Oooh, Fezzik is coming up on "The Body."

We're here if you need us.

Fezzik

08-01-2011, 08:25 PM

Also, Olaf the Troll was hilarious.

"You fight well, even though you are a tiny man."

"Hahahaha! Puny receptacle."

:lol:

Lucky

08-01-2011, 08:25 PM

"The Body" fo sho.

And... "The Gift"?

Yep, yep. Can't decide which one I'd rank over the other. Tends to flip-flop. Probably rank "The Body" tops at this point in my life. "The Gift" was tops during my initial viewing of the series. I have a feeling the episode loses some of its lasting emotional punch when you know there's a S6&7 ahead of time. I'll never forget that summer of the rumors if/when Buffy will return.

Thirdmango

08-02-2011, 12:49 AM

Currently 3>2>1

Watched episode 3.8 today.

Mara

08-02-2011, 01:01 AM

Currently 3>2>1

I'd say that's true.

I'm scanning the episode lists and oooh boy you have some great stuff coming up.

Lucky

08-02-2011, 01:09 AM

Currently 3>2>1

Watched episode 3.8 today.

I'd say that's the general consensus. The next episode is a personal favorite.

Thirdmango

08-02-2011, 03:47 AM

this is a good run. Hansel and Gretel were hilarious.

also Buffy seems hotter when in baggy clothing.

Thirdmango

08-02-2011, 04:09 AM

Also I have to say, I am actually glad I took time off of watching Buffy. I was so tired of the show after watching the first two seasons that I just didn't give season 3 a chance. Having some time to cool off, now I'm actually watching the season and it's so much better then I remember it.

...and episode 12 is my favorite of the series so far.

And then the Xander episode topped that one.

Mara

08-02-2011, 01:01 PM

And then the Xander episode topped that one.

There are a few Xander-centric episodes I enjoy, but "The Zeppo" may be the best of them.

Fezzik

08-02-2011, 01:40 PM

There are a few Xander-centric episodes I enjoy, but "The Zeppo" may be the best of them.

My favorite Xander-centric episode is "The Replacement"

Mara

08-02-2011, 01:45 PM

My favorite Xander-centric episode is "The Replacement"

Were you aware that episode featured Nicholas Brendan's identical twin brother? Good times.

And "The Attic" episode of Dollhouse featured Enver's identical twin brother.

I propose that all sci-fi/fantasy actors have identical twins! It would save so much money.

Glass Co.

08-02-2011, 08:19 PM

I might be in a minority, but I'd put "The Zeppo" in my top ten of the entire series.

Thirdmango

08-02-2011, 08:46 PM

the I can hear thoughts episode had a good twist ending

Lucky

08-02-2011, 09:13 PM

the I can hear thoughts episode had a good twist ending

Little trivia: the original airings of this episode and the second part of the season finale were both delayed by months due to the Columbine shootings happening. The execs didn't want to promote episodes with bringing weapons to school. As a viewer this sucked because the first part of the finale has one hell of an ending. Had to wait months for it to be resolved.

romantisaurusrex

08-03-2011, 11:30 AM

Mara

08-03-2011, 12:56 PM

I always figured it was the same person.

But that doesn't really make sense. Halfrek is shown being a demon chronologically before Cecily was alive, and it doesn't seem like she'd be posing as human when William knows her parents, etc. It's weird.

Fezzik

08-03-2011, 02:27 PM

I just watched "I Was Made to Love You."

Average episode, but the end...All I have to say is: F#$% you, Joss :(

(The next episode is "The Body")

Mara

08-03-2011, 02:31 PM

(The next episode is "The Body")

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mara

08-03-2011, 02:34 PM

Also, I'm just about alone in thinking that "I Was Made to Love You" is above-average. I find the morality and sadness of it very intriguing and moving.

Sans the final scene, of course, which is just a gut-punch to set you up for the next episode.

Glass Co.

08-03-2011, 04:34 PM

Fezzik

08-03-2011, 07:59 PM

It certainly gives us a taste of what a horrible chauvinist pig Warren is.

Is Warren a recurring character? I know Spike "ordered" something from him (one word: creepy), but I wasn't sure how much of a role he had.

Lucky

08-03-2011, 08:05 PM

Is Warren a recurring character? I know Spike "ordered" something from him (one word: creepy), but I wasn't sure how much of a role he had.

His presence in Season 5 is minimal, but he plays a significant recurring role starting in Season 6.

Dead & Messed Up

08-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Is Warren a recurring character? I know Spike "ordered" something from him (one word: creepy), but I wasn't sure how much of a role he had.

You will see him return.

Mara

08-03-2011, 08:07 PM

Is Warren a recurring character? I know Spike "ordered" something from him (one word: creepy), but I wasn't sure how much of a role he had.

Like Spike himself, or Anya, or Jonathon, Warren is one of those characters that seems short term, but keeps showing up. And up. And up. I'm not sure if that was ever the original intention, or if the writers just liked the characters and would bring them back again.

Fezzik

08-04-2011, 07:22 AM

*sigh*

"The Body" is a gut-punch, but its an amazing hour of TV. The choice to have no music AT ALL during the episode added to the verisimilitude. All the ambient sounds seemed to stand out that much more and just gave the episode another level of believability.

Anya's mini breakdown was heartbreaking, and the gimmick/trick of Buffy's thoughts/ideas overwriting the present (like when she imagines the doctor saying "I have to lie to you to make you feel better") was a nicely added touch.

Joss Whedon seems to have two personalities. Sometimes he is "fun" Joss, other times, he turns into an artist - here he is an artist, and its just such a well crafted episode that you forget (until the vampire shows up in the morgue), that you're watching a show about a girl who fights supernatural beasties.

Everyone was strong in this episode, Emma Caulfield especially. Just a great episode.

I also watched the follow-up episode, "Forever." It wasn't nearly as good, but I loved Spike's moments in it soooo much, and the end was such an emotional crash that I'll forgive the rest of it.

Mara

08-04-2011, 12:20 PM

Anya's mini breakdown was heartbreaking

We all die a little during that scene. It's unexpected, but completely believable. This is one of the best episodes of television. Ever.

I also watched the follow-up episode, "Forever." It wasn't nearly as good, but I loved Spike's moments in it soooo much, and the end was such an emotional crash that I'll forgive the rest of it.

I dislike "Forever." I think it's the way television conventionally handles death, which is sort of facile and emotionally simplistic. "The Body" just showed us that we don't have to accept that.

However, the Spike scene is touching, because he genuinely liked Joyce and is actually grieving.

Also, Giles drinking alone in his apartment, listening to "The Tales of Brave Ulysses," which is the song he and Joyce listened to in "Band Candy." Such a lovely, understated moment.

Fezzik

08-04-2011, 01:18 PM

We all die a little during that scene. It's unexpected, but completely believable. This is one of the best episodes of television. Ever.

The more I think about it, the more I agree. It really is a rarity, which is even more obvious after watching "Forever."

I've read a lot of commentary about it since I watched it yesterday and there's so many people who have called it one of the best hours of drama ever on TV.

Knowing that, and knowing how many respected industry people feel that way too, the fact that the episode didn't get any Emmy nominations just blows my mind.

Hollywood is so weird.

Mara

08-04-2011, 01:52 PM

I've read a lot of commentary about it since I watched it yesterday and there's so many people who have called it one of the best hours of drama ever on TV.

I don't think it can be overpraised. The first time I watched it, I thought, "I didn't know television could do this." And rewatches have not dimmed my opinion of it.

The next episode is a favorite of mine. In some ways, it's a break from all the sadness, but in a realistic and entertaining way.

Kurosawa Fan

08-04-2011, 02:34 PM

Okay, so I want to convince my wife to start watching this. She saw a few episodes from season one but thought it was just okay (a reasonable opinion), and has been hesitant to watch it again.

I convinced her to watch a couple random, spoiler-free episodes from other seasons as an example of how awesome the show can be. Any suggestions? I'm going to show her at least one of the Halloween episodes (probably Xander as soldier), but you guys, and girls since I look at Mara as the authority on this series, know the show much better than myself. What other really fun episodes can I show her to get her interested, episodes that won't give away any major plot points?

Lucky

08-04-2011, 02:43 PM

"Halloween", "Lie to Me", and "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" would all be good choices from S2.

"Helpless" from S3 is a good stand-alone dramatic/horror episode.

"Something Blue" from S4 would be a good choice, too. I think I remember Mara saying she used this for a friend once.

Even "Hush" from S4 wouldn't be a bad choice.

"Him" from S7? Kind of a weird episode to show a potential Buffy viewer, but I enjoy it profusely and it's spoiler-free.

Mara

08-04-2011, 02:45 PM

I convinced her to watch a couple random, spoiler-free episodes from other seasons as an example of how awesome the show can be. Any suggestions? I'm going to show her at least one of the Halloween episodes (probably Xander as soldier), but you guys, and girls since I look at Mara as the authority on this series, know the show much better than myself. What other really fun episodes can I show her to get her interested, episodes that won't give away any major plot points?

A roommate lost a bet with me and had to watch an episode of Buffy as punishment. I was trying to prove to her that it wasn't a stupid show. I wanted something funny and engaging, and so I showed her "Something Blue"-- season 4, when Willow is sad about Oz and bespells Buffy and Spike to be in love.

In retrospect, I think that episode was too tied into backstory and didn't stand alone too well.

So... what to recommend. Hmm.

Band Candy: very funny stand-alone episode.

Once More with Feeling: I know you didn't go for this too much, and I don't know how Val feels about musicals. But I think it's a blast. You might run into, "Wait, Buffy has a sister?" questions.

Restless: less funny, more brilliant. Totally random, and it's hard to have it "spoil" anything when it's just dadaism. A good episode to use if she thinks Buffy is too conventional.

Hush: scary as crap, innovative.

The Zeppo: we were just talking about how great this episode was. Self-contained, clever, and unusual.

Here (http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=2548) is my old top-35 list, which has probably changed in the couple of years since I wrote it. But it's a good plot-points refresher.

Mara

08-04-2011, 02:47 PM

Lucky knows all my stories. ;)

Kurosawa Fan

08-04-2011, 02:51 PM

Very nice choices, Lucky. Thanks for the help. I was also thinking of "Fool for Love," but wasn't sure if it was spoiler-free.

Kurosawa Fan

08-04-2011, 02:54 PM

Mara, that was my exact worry with "Halloween." Is it only funny because I know how drastic the personality changes are, or would an outsider still have as much fun as I did?

Anyway, thank you both for the help. I'm definitely going to go with "Hush." Then I'll go with something funny, not sure which one yet. I'll give it some thought. Hopefully that will be enough to convince her to watch it.

Mara

08-04-2011, 02:57 PM

Kurosawa Fan

08-04-2011, 02:59 PM

"Fool for Love" is a good choice. It only spoils Spike's feelings for Buffy, plus some hints about Joyce's health problems.

Spike is very attractive in it.

Not that your wife would ever, ever find any man attractive other than yourself, but I'm just saying.

Oh, she'll be drooling for Spike. She has weird attractions to evil men (fictional only). She found Ledger's The Joker and Fiennes' Voldemort attractive. Have her try to explain that to you. It makes no sense.

Lucky

08-04-2011, 03:24 PM

Lucky knows all my stories. ;)

We go back to page 1 in '09, my friend.

Kurosawa Fan

08-05-2011, 02:41 AM

All it took was "Hush." She's now three episodes into season one. :cool:

Thirdmango

08-05-2011, 06:20 AM

The nice thing about the Prom episode is besides the fact that it set up Angel as a series, but it took down the in character 4th wall and recognized that everyone in town realizes they live in a town full of insanity.

Mara

08-05-2011, 12:37 PM

All it took was "Hush." She's now three episodes into season one. :cool:

Awesome.

The nice thing about the Prom episode is besides the fact that it set up Angel as a series, but it took down the in character 4th wall and recognized that everyone in town realizes they live in a town full of insanity.

Every time I watch that episode, I feel like I should roll my eyes at the schmaltzy, but instead I totally buy it. Graduation is the end of an era, and the writers feel free to break all the rules.

Mara

08-05-2011, 12:56 PM

"The Prom" is also amusing for introducing the one-off character Tucker Wells, who is never seen again, and yet is name-dropped for the rest of the series.

Thirdmango

08-05-2011, 04:11 PM

which one was he?

I finished the third season last night. In time too cause I'm going to be without netflix for the next three days. The thing that was strangely touching was the mayor's love for Faith. I figured it was more a curiosity thing but then in the last episode he seemed deeply distraught that she was hurt so badly. I totally thought a part of the plan was to eat faith but really he wanted her to stand by his snake side.

I think it was especially this season where wheadon realized he could get away with these funny moments of miscommunication which he would become famous for. Like the Angel waking up and saying I missed you Buffy to find out it's willow so willow says that to Oz and he says back, "He did that to you too?" It's those moments which are synonymous with things like the Jubel Early episode of Firefly "I'm a lion? I never thought I was a lion?" "No, you're a liar." Adding in the element of real life moments which you don't see in tv because people often forget that characters are people.

But anyways, very good season.

Mara

08-05-2011, 04:22 PM

which one was he?

He's the guy who trained the killer dogs.

The thing that was strangely touching was the mayor's love for Faith. I figured it was more a curiosity thing but then in the last episode he seemed deeply distraught that she was hurt so badly. I totally thought a part of the plan was to eat faith but really he wanted her to stand by his snake side.

In some ways, he's the anti-Giles to Faith being the anti-Buffy. He's affectionate, funny, charming and dangerous. He never swears-- never says a cross word-- except when Buffy hurts Faith, and he calls her a whore. He really loses his mind in the hospital-- he's raging and violent and everything we expect villains to be, but that he never is. And it is for a perfectly moral reason: someone he loves has been hurt.

The Mayor may be my favorite Buffy Big Bad.

Fezzik

08-05-2011, 04:56 PM

The Mayor may be my favorite Buffy Big Bad.

I think its funny that Spike routinely calls people out for being or wanting to be the "next Big Bad."

Mara

08-05-2011, 05:16 PM

Man, have we ever ranked big bads?

SPOILERS. No kidding, haven't-finished-yetters, some of these you do not want to know early.

1. The Mayor
2. The Trio
3. Angelus
4. Glory
5. Spike/Drusilla
6. Dark Willow
7. The Master
8. The First
9. Adam/The Initiative

Kurosawa Fan

08-05-2011, 05:32 PM

1. The Mayor
2. Dark Willow
3. The Trio
4. Spike/Drusilla
5. Angelus
6. Glory
7. The Master
8. The First
9. Adam/The Initiative

Lucky

08-06-2011, 06:12 PM

1. Angelus
2. Glory
3. The Mayor
4. Dark Willow
5. Spike/Drusilla
6. The First
7. The Master
8. Adam/The Initiative
9. The Trio

Dead & Messed Up

08-07-2011, 03:02 AM

Angelus
The Trio
The Mayor
Dark Willow
Spike/Drusilla
Glory
The First
The Master
Adam/The Initiative

I loved the Trio so much conceptually that any shortcomings are invisible to me right now. Brilliant thinking, going in the complete opposite direction of earlier seasons. No supernatural apocalyptor. Just three boys, one awful enough to lead, two tragic enough to follow.

Mara

08-07-2011, 03:14 AM

I loved the Trio so much conceptually that any shortcomings are invisible to me right now. Brilliant thinking, going in the complete opposite direction of earlier seasons. No supernatural apocalyptor. Just three boys, one awful enough to lead, two tragic enough to follow.

Lucky disagrees.

As I recall, part of it was a serious dislike of both Jonathon and Andrew as characters. But I'll let him tell it.

Lucky

08-09-2011, 08:01 PM

Lucky disagrees.

As I recall, part of it was a serious dislike of both Jonathon and Andrew as characters. But I'll let him tell it.

Sorry, I've been on vacation and I'm not a fan of typing out long responses on my phone. Now that I'm home sweet home on my computer...

The main issue I have with The Trio is that they're frequently responsible for awkward tonal shifts. Although some will use this as an example for why they fit in season six well, it doesn't work for me personally. The true Big Bad is life itself in S6, and their role just doesn't mesh with this. Throughout the majority of the season they seem like irrelevant nuisances, but by the time they actually do something interesting and consequential they are overshadowed by a much more effective Big Bad (Dark Willow).

Perhaps I would have valued them more if they were used less often, because I don't think they were an absolute failure (nor do I think that of any of the other villains). I (mostly) dug them comically during the episode "Life Serial", "Dead Things" offered a worthy dark theme to explore, and Warren's final act is an integral catalyst to the dynamic of the final handful of episodes.

Whenever the Trio appears onscreen aside from those episodes, however, is grating. Even in "Life Serial" I find myself annoyed at times. Not only do they spout off sci-fi references which make me roll my eyes, but they really take me out of the show with their self-aware dialogue. It's almost like the writers quoted conversations fans were having on message boards about the show at the time. But not fans here on match-cut. Fans on www.iheartbuffyandspikeforever .com. This also flows into one of my problems with Andrew as he continues on this trend throughout S7.

S6 is dark and arguably more character driven than any other season of Buffy. Adding the most lighthearted villain in the entire series to this mix was inspired for some, but uncomfortably clashing to me.

Lucky

08-09-2011, 08:03 PM

As you can see from my ranking, I think what makes a Buffy villain great is when there is plenty of invested character emotion on the line. My #1 may be a little biased by my memory of being blown away by one of the best twists in television.

Thirdmango

08-09-2011, 11:41 PM

I just watched the anya in bunny costume episode. Avatars!

Kurosawa Fan

08-10-2011, 12:15 AM

I just watched the anya in bunny costume episode. Avatars!

Awesome.

Thirdmango

08-10-2011, 04:10 AM

Lucky

08-10-2011, 04:42 AM

Mara, I don't have the intense hatred others have of angel. I'm at the point where they're going at the same time, should I watch them at the same time or is it alright to wait? What would you recommend.

The 4th season of Buffy has some crossover events with the 1st season of Angel. Check out the Angel episode "I Will Remember You" after you watch the Buffy ep "Pangs." That episode of Angel makes an excellent bookend to their tragic relationship. Might as well have been an episode of Buffy.

After the Buffy episode "Who Are You?" check out "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary" on Angel. Those two episodes help flesh out a popular Buffy character even more.

Once you get to Season 5 of Buffy the episode "Fool for Love" has a sister ep on Angel titled "Darla." Those I would definitely recommend watching back-to-back.

Aside from those, there aren't other Angel episodes that are too pertinent to Buffy's continuity. Mara might remember something I'm missing, however.

I also do not hate Angel as a character. I think you'll really like the episodes I highlighted above. I would rank those four right along with above average Buffy episodes.

Thirdmango

08-10-2011, 08:23 AM

Basically everyone I know told me Hush was one of the best episodes. They were all right.

Mara

08-10-2011, 12:33 PM

Mara, I don't have the intense hatred others have of angel. I'm at the point where they're going at the same time, should I watch them at the same time or is it alright to wait? What would you recommend.

I did not watch them concurrently, and I didn't feel like I missed out on much. Once I watched Angel, though, some pieces fell into place, and I'd go "OoooOOOH." They were produced to be watched concurrently, and they play off each other a little bit. If you have time to spare, it would be an interesting experiment.

I don't hate Angel the character, exactly. I just don't particularly like him, especially on BtVS and as a romantic partner with Buffy. He is a far better character on Angel the series, because they are willing to be more self-aware and make fun of his constant sulking. He gets funnier and more interesting.

And Angel the series is really worth visiting, although I think as a baseline, it's just not as good as Buffy. However, when it is good, it is really quite good. ("Smile Time," in Season 5, might be one of my favorite television episodes... ever.)

As per usual in Whedon shows, many of the characters are beyond loveable. The BtVS exports: Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley; all become far more nuanced and fascinating. Of the new characters, I am particularly in love with Fred and Lorne.

I guess... mild spoiler...

Spike also comes over as a regular in Season 5, which I have mixed feelings about. But Harmony also becomes a recurring character, and I think she's perfect for the show.

And you get Buffy crossover characters: Buffy, Oz, Willow, Andrew, Faith, etc. Which is fun.

Thirdmango

08-14-2011, 08:36 AM

I should mention I finished season 4 yesterday.

And so the official order currently is 3 4 2 1

And as my night ends, I end the night on "Fool For Love". Went back and read some people said about it. Fantastic episode. I think my favorite part was actually the very end. The look on Buffy was awesome.

Also I loved The Replacement. Xander may be my favorite character. I think though he may be my favorite character because he's not over saturated. His episodes don't come too often so when they do it's a nice treat. Anya is also an amazing girlfriend for him. If Anya were in Bones and played the part of Bones, I think that show would be much better.

Lucky

08-14-2011, 06:02 PM

Yes, Season 5 is glorious. At your rate it looks like you'll pass Fezzik up in no time. Can't wait to hear your guys' thoughts after you finish the whole year up.

Mara

08-14-2011, 06:03 PM

And as my night ends, I end the night on "Fool For Love". Went back and read some people said about it. Fantastic episode. I think my favorite part was actually the very end. The look on Buffy was awesome.

Also I loved The Replacement. Xander may be my favorite character. I think though he may be my favorite character because he's not over saturated. His episodes don't come too often so when they do it's a nice treat. Anya is also an amazing girlfriend for him. If Anya were in Bones and played the part of Bones, I think that show would be much better.

"Fool for Love" and "The Replacement" are two of my favorites. Season 5 is my favorite season.

Any thoughts on "Restless"?

And I'm a little disappointed that you didn't come in with "BUFFY HAS A SISTER WHAT NOW?" Because I love it when people do that. ;)

You're catching up to Fezzik.

Lucky

08-14-2011, 06:05 PM

Any thoughts on "Restless"?

Or how about "Who Are You?" That's one of my favorites.

Fezzik

08-14-2011, 07:10 PM

Finished season 5 today.

I've had to slack off a bit because apparently all my streaming is causing us to pass our datacap each month. it sucks.

The last 3 or 4 episodes of Season 5 were spectacular.

Tense, well paced, well-written and acted. Just wow.

Things in particular I loved:

In the last two episodes especially, it was clear the group, albeit reluctantly, was starting to accept Spike. Xander lighting his cigarette, The moment Giles and the St. Crispin speech, Willow's quick "but thank you" after he offered her some booze, etc.

I LOVED the moment between Buffy and Spike at her house - his bashfulness at the threshold, the almost "awww" look on Buffy's face when she invites him in, and the whole 'you treat me like a man'.

Spike is becoming one of my favorite characters in any TV show ever.

I love Giles' last seen with Ben. "She's a hero, you know. Not like us" and then the slow, non-chalant choke out. Glorious (no pun intended).

Also...

I kinda saw the Buffy sacrificing herself thing coming, but I was wondering - was season 5 intended to be the end of the series originally? It had a finality to it.

Lucky

08-14-2011, 08:11 PM

Yes, the cast and crew believed they had possibly made the final episode right there. The contract for the show was in battles over that summer after the finale aired, and the UPN ended up picking up the show as the WB wouldn't cough up the money for the show's increasing cost. If I remember correctly, SMG's salary went from $100k/ep in S5 to $350k/ep in S6. You'll notice that with the network switch the show is allowed to be a little more risque and explore more adult themes. Which is appropriate for the show's progression anyway, so it all kind of worked out.

In the grand scheme of things, the network switch was irrelevant in the quality of the show. Some fans (including some on Match-Cut) even believe S6 to be the strongest year of them all.

Thirdmango

08-14-2011, 08:18 PM

Any thoughts on "Restless"?

And I'm a little disappointed that you didn't come in with "BUFFY HAS A SISTER WHAT NOW?" Because I love it when people do that. ;)

You're catching up to Fezzik.

I don't know which of us will finish the series first since I know I won't finish it by Wednesday, and on Wednesday I'm heading to Seattle until the following Monday and will not be watching any Buffy.

Unfortunately about Buffy is I have been spoiled to quite a number of random things. So in my mind it's always been, "That crazy chick from Gossip Girl becomes Buffy's sister in season 5." So the reveal of her having a sister was not at all unexpected. So for me it was, "Okay now her sister is there." I didn't know the hullabaloo over her "identity" however.

Restless was fun. I had just barely watched Terminator 2 for the first time a couple hours earlier so the playground scenes felt very connected even though I'm sure they weren't really. I can tell that episode does have some good fan porn of different characters. The cheeseman was a nice touch. Overall it was fun but I don't think I'd put it in my top of the top.

As for Who Are You, I had seen a gif of the mirror scene, and actually didn't know it was from Buffy but I'm now glad it was. The funny thing is I never really fell in love with Faith until she was in a coma, because it was the episode showing the Mayor's humanity that made me feel good about the Mayor even though he was pure evil and thus also gave me a link to Faith. So I also knew she would wake up at some point and was happy to see it there. Body swap episodes and movies are such an interesting genre because we immediately accept that another character is inhabiting the body of another character and so will just watch the actress we normally watch but be fascinated by this other character. Anyways that's just an aside. I do think that was the episode though were Riley went from being her boyfriend to being her "first boyfriend". I actually sorta like that Riley is such a bad actor, it helps in shaking your head at Buffy for having such bad taste in men.

Want to know what else I've been spoiled to and just can't forget? Warning Fezzik, don't click on this spoiler.

Tara dies somewhere around the end of the fifth season or into the sixth season. Anya dies in the last episode. :(

Mara

08-14-2011, 10:10 PM

I love Giles' last seen with Ben. "She's a hero, you know. Not like us" and then the slow, non-chalant choke out. Glorious (no pun intended).

That scene is brilliant on so many levels. It says so much about Buffy, and about Giles, and about their relationship.

I feel that Giles is doing the ultimate "Father" thing here, and protecting his little girl's innocence. She shouldn't have to kill Ben. It would make her less than she is. So, he will do it for her. He is a killer, and he's at peace with that.

It's pretty mind-blowing.

Mara

08-14-2011, 10:12 PM

Tara dies somewhere around the end of the fifth season or into the sixth season.

It's a little farther away than that. Don't be on tenterhooks. I was spoiled on that, too, and I wish I had not been.

Although given the ABSOLUTE RAGE that some fans over it, perhaps it was better that I was somewhat prepared.

Thirdmango

08-15-2011, 06:07 AM

Well there was one thing I was not in fact spoilered about.

I was going to say my favorite episodes so far this season were Into the Woods and Triangle. They were just such good Xander episodes. Even though Into the Woods was more about Riley leaving the payoff was more with Xander then anyone else. Then I knew I had to get to Crush cause I heard it was good and it was. Then I was waiting for this one thing to finish downloading so I was just going to watch episodes until it stopped downloading so I was like, "Heh, I'll just watch one more episode, hey, this is a funny one with a funny love robot, oh look they wrapped that up nicely looks like my download finished and.... oh my God.... They just.... um.... Okay next episode.... oh.... goodness.... then tears and curses of damn you joss you magnificent bastard... That episode was so good and so awful and so yeah. Jeez, that was a rocky journey there. I certainly didn't expect that.

Thirdmango

08-15-2011, 07:39 AM

"I fight with weapons!" :pritch:

Fezzik

08-15-2011, 12:37 PM

Watched the two parter that starts season 6.

I like it, but its so uncomfortable at times (not that its a bad thing). I understand that Buffy needs to get back to "her old self" over time, but I'm waiting for the shoe to drop where...

She unhinges emotionally and spills everything (probably to Spike) about what happened to her while she was in Hell, or wherever she was. And when that happens, I am sure I'll cry like a baby.

Spike gets better and better each episode. He is now one of my top 3 characters on TV EVER. His growth over time reminds me a lot of

Jaime Lannister in the Song of Ice and Fire series.

The scene where he's babysitting Dawn and slams the cards down and says he made a promise to protect her just ratched up my love for him all that much more. Marsters owns the role so much.

Also...

Giles left :( I has a sad.

Mara

08-15-2011, 12:38 PM

oh my God.... They just.... um.... Okay next episode.... oh.... goodness.... then tears and curses of damn you joss you magnificent bastard... That episode was so good and so awful and so yeah. Jeez, that was a rocky journey there. I certainly didn't expect that.

In my opinion, the single greatest episode of the show. It's a gut punch every single time.

:sad:

Mara

08-15-2011, 12:43 PM

Season 6 is a train wreck in slow motion. It is hard to watch, but it's done so well.

She unhinges emotionally and spills everything (probably to Spike) about what happened to her while she was in Hell, or wherever she was. And when that happens, I am sure I'll cry like a baby.

First of all, you're getting a really great feel for how these characters relate to each other. Second of all, I'm extremely curious to see your reaction to an upcoming episode.

*starts humming*

Thirdmango

08-16-2011, 04:17 AM

I went back to look at the rankings and so far the one I'm closest to in rankings is Ledfloyd. So as I just now finished the fifth season it's

3/5 > 4 > 2 > 1

I don't know which season I liked more between 3 and 5. I think if I really had to choose right now with a gun to my head I would choose 3 over 5. Probably more so because I just really didn't like Glory. The last couple episodes were pretty good minus those Knights Templar. I really didn't care about them at all.

Mara

08-16-2011, 12:27 PM

Season 3 had a better villain, but almost no Spike. Season 5 had Spike, the Buffybot ("Darn your sinister attraction!"), "The Body", and lots and lots of Anya.

In quality they're very close, but I just have to love season 5.

Thirdmango

08-16-2011, 12:44 PM

Mara

08-16-2011, 12:52 PM

.... Okay maybe I watched the first song. But now I'm going to bed.

Yay, "Once More With Feeling!"

Spoilered because you're ahead of Fezzik now.

Musicals are under appreciated on this site. I think that episode is an absolute riot. I have the whole album on my iPod.

I'M GOING TO LISTEN TO IT RIGHT NOW.

Fezzik

08-16-2011, 04:30 PM

Fezzik

08-16-2011, 04:32 PM

So again I was at one of those, I need to go to bed I'll let this be the one last episode. It was a good episode, the halloween one, and then I'm like okay gotta go to bed, I wonder what the next episode is... Oh. Crap. No I will be strong. So I am actually going to bed knowing I have to wait until tomorrow to watch Once More With Feeling.

.... Okay maybe I watched the first song. But now I'm going to bed.

How far into Season 6 is "Once More, With Feeling"? Everyone keeps telling me to hurry up and watch it so they can add it to our regular "musical stuff" rotation when we do our random TV/movie days.

Mara

08-16-2011, 04:39 PM

How far into Season 6 is "Once More, With Feeling"? Everyone keeps telling me to hurry up and watch it so they can add it to our regular "musical stuff" rotation when we do our random TV/movie days.

You're coming up on it. It's #7.

Fezzik

08-16-2011, 04:42 PM

You're coming up on it. It's #7.

Sweet. Im through episode 4, if I remember right.

Lucky

08-16-2011, 06:08 PM

Fezzik

08-17-2011, 12:10 AM

Watched the two parter that starts season 6.

I like it, but its so uncomfortable at times (not that its a bad thing). I understand that Buffy needs to get back to "her old self" over time, but I'm waiting for the shoe to drop where...

She unhinges emotionally and spills everything (probably to Spike) about what happened to her while she was in Hell, or wherever she was. And when that happens, I am sure I'll cry like a baby.

Correct on every point, it turns out. Sometimes being right SUCKS. I started to cry before Buffy got to the end of her explanation because I knew exactly where she was going with it. Just freaking heart-rendering.

Thirdmango

08-17-2011, 06:32 AM

Musical was quite fun.

About something else ep 13.

The please don't forgive me scene was really good.

Also I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Trio.

But then ep 16

After every character basically having the worst thing ever you'd think they would give happiness to at least one character.

Fezzik

08-17-2011, 11:23 AM

Watched "Once More With Feeling" before bed last night. Verily impressed. Amber Benson and Anthony Head have got voices on them!

There were no bad songs, but my favorites were "Standing," "Under Your Spell," and "Walk Into the Fire."

Best moment? No contest:

Buffy revealing, in song, that her friends pulled her out of Heaven, and their subsequent reactions, especially Willow's.

The Trio is hilarious BTW. The episode where They screw with Buffy as part of a competition and Spike takes her to the poker game was almost a laugh a minute. The kitten poker game scene made soda come out of my nose.

"Come on, someone's gotta stake me."

"I'll do it. What, you didn't think I was just gonna leave that there, did you?"

:lol: :pritch:

Plus...KITTENS!

The Halloween episode was good, and its nice to see, that despite being made of energy, that Dawn is still as stupid as most teenagers. :)

Mara

08-17-2011, 12:23 PM

Musical was quite fun.

About something else ep 13.

The please don't forgive me scene was really good.

Also I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Trio.

In a pretty standard episode, that scene between Buffy and Tara pretty much breaks my heart. It's perfectly written and acted, and tells you so much about both of them as characters.

But then ep 16

After every character basically having the worst thing ever you'd think they would give happiness to at least one character.

No, Joss is going to break everyone until they just can't be broken no more.

And I'm glad both of you are liking the Trio. I like them very much, having a special place in my heart for Andrew. ("Who?" "Tucker's brother.")

Mara

08-17-2011, 12:50 PM

In a pretty standard episode, that scene between Buffy and Tara pretty much breaks my heart. It's perfectly written and acted, and tells you so much about both of them as characters.

To expand on this, I actually see this scene as an emotional sequel to their conversation in "The Body." Buffy and Tara aren't particularly close, but at that moment, in the hospital, Tara is understanding Buffy in a way that nobody else is. Her stammering, gentle support:

I'm only telling you because, it's not m-my place, but... there's things, thoughts and reactions that I had, that I couldn't... understand, or even try to explain to anyone else. Thoughts that made me feel like I was losing it, or like I was just a h-horrible person. I know it's different for you, because it's always different, but... if you ever need...

And then, when it's confession time, it's Tara that she goes to. In a way, if Buffy and Tara were closer, I'm not sure if it could happen at all, because it would be too emotionally traumatic. Tara is close enough to talk to, but not so close that Buffy feels the need to maintain her perfect hero image.

Tara is the sweetest, gentlest, most compassionate and firmly moral character on the show. She never, ever wavers or buckles. She's a rock.

Fezzik

08-18-2011, 11:12 PM

So..."Tabula Rasa." 30 minutes of sheer hilarity framed by 10 minutes of raw emotion. Loved it.

Can i get a spinoff where Giles and Spike really ARE father and son? Please?

Thirdmango

08-21-2011, 04:28 AM

Today I was at Sven's place and was like, the only thing I wanna do right now is eat teriyaki and watch Buffy. So I finished season 6. Will probably end up finishing when I get back so likely thursday or friday.

Glass Co.

08-21-2011, 04:40 AM

Season 6 gets better and more true-to-life the older I get.

Thirdmango

08-24-2011, 10:16 PM

Probably going to finish Buffy tonight. I have six episodes left.

and done.

Lucky

08-25-2011, 04:57 AM

...and?

A whole season's worth and that's all we get for commentary?

Thirdmango

08-25-2011, 11:35 AM

Alrighty. Had to think about it before saying anything. Thoughts on season 7: This was one of the weaker seasons as a whole but it still had some strong episodes. I liked Caleb quite a bit and it was fun seeing a young Felicia Day. The show just got too serious though. During seasons 3-5 it was just the right mix of serious insanity mixed with crazy hijinks. The sixth season was good but it was starting the seriousness trend and season 7 may have also had too many characters. I loved Andrew and he may have had my favorite moments of season 7. The ending was a satisfying conclusion especially the blowing up of all of sunnydale, I loved that moment. I bought the first volume of the Buffy season 8 comic last week so I'll give it a read and see if it's good enough for me to keep reading it but as an ending season 7's was pretty nice.

My rankings of seasons would be 3>5>6>4>7>2>1

More thoughts on the series as a whole:

I described this show to a friend of mine last night as a sandwich, with some of the best meats cheeses and vegetables you've ever had in the middle and the bread is subpar. So it's almost the best sandwich you've ever had but the bread sorta ruins it. Because that's the thing, for me the first and second seasons were so horrendous and the seventh season almost felt like they had lost the soul of the show. The meat of the show in the middle is fantastic but the bookends were not very good. At some point I'll go back and watch the first two seasons again and I think they'll be better then I remember them only because I like the characters now. I'm glad I took a break from watching the show and rewatched season 3 because it did become my favorite season.

I can see all the arguments to be made about seasons 3 and 5 and which is a better season. I personally liked season 3 a bit more simply because it felt more consistent in characters I cared about on both sides of the good evil fence. I think also though this show made me love the underdog type and smaller characters more then I liked the main characters. Xander is easily my favorite character. Anya is probably my second favorite. Oz was great and I was really sad when he left. And as far as villains go The Mayor is just the best and The Trio are a near second. I went back before writing this and read some thoughts on big bads and saw what Lucky said about the Trio and I can sorta see where he's coming from but for me this group was more about the underdogs of evil becoming the big baddies. I actually loved the transition of Warren killing Tara bringing about Dark Willow and I don't really think of Dark Willow as a big bad, instead she was a grief machine who could swallow the world with her sorrow. Anytime the Trio was on screen I actually routed for them and wanted them to beat Buffy.

The writing really is one of the stronger elements of the show but as a whole the show had a really hard time writing main villains. Besides the Mayor and in my mind The Trio every other big villain was really poorly done. (note I don't remember season 2 very well). But I hated The Master, the first was lackluster, Glory may have been my least favorite and the initiative adam stuff was pretty bad (if they had kept the psych teacher going longer I think they may have been able to pull something off). They did awesome jobs with 5 second villains, the kind of villains you only see for one episode.

Overall I did like the show and it might enter my top 20 but not my top 10. It's been almost four years since I did my top 50, I should revise and see how much different it is now. I liked the comedy of the show more then the drama of the show. I'm very glad I did finish it and I am going to start Angel fairly soon I would think.