Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Qrazy]

i wouldn't go as far as calling it garbage, but season 1 is the only one i like less. i'm not a huge fan of the finale but i like the nathan fillion arc that precedes it.

so you watched the entire series in what? 10 days?

I like Nathan Fillion but didn't care for his story/arc much. I almost don't know where to begin there's so much I disliked about this season.

I'll just start with the fact that that female Guardian character was about the most pointless bit of show mythology ever.

[Mara]

I'll just start with the fact that that female Guardian character was about the most pointless bit of show mythology ever.

Agreed, very silly.

Season seven gets a lot of hate from the fandom, so although I don't love it, I find myself defending it pretty often. Narratively, it's a bit of a mess as they frantically tried to tie up all the loose ends before the series ended. So, instead of listing all the problems, and there are many, here is a quick list of what I DO like about the season:


I think the last episode is great. Tons of action, character-defining moments, etc. Spike's death is perfect, which leads into a whole other discussion about "Angel" I don't wanna get into.
I like Andrew as a character. I know a number of people who hate him, which would make the season a lot harder to bear.
Anya's re-redemption is good. I like her as a character,and I like how she comes full circle into choosing to die with the heroes, instead of running away like she did the first time.
Caleb.
Return of Faith. I kind of love Faith.


So, I think I would lump Season 7 somewhere with season 4-- flawed, but with some great shining moments.

[Raiders]

Season 4 may have had some clunkers, but it is probably my favorite season. I think it is likely because I remember this show more for the best of the episodes almost in a vacuum as opposed to the overarching storylines, and season 4 had more of my favorites than any other ("Hush", "Restless", "Who Are You?").

[ledfloyd]

So, I think I would lump Season 7 somewhere with season 4-- flawed, but with some great shining moments.
*shakes fist*

season four is my second favorite season.

[Qrazy]

Season 4 may have had some clunkers, but it is probably my favorite season. I think it is likely because I remember this show more for the best of the episodes almost in a vacuum as opposed to the overarching storylines, and season 4 had more of my favorites than any other ("Hush", "Restless", "Who Are You?").

Yeah I didn't have many problems with season four myself. I thought the new college setting and everything that went along with it did the show a lot of good. What I like about the show is the humor, in the best episodes the aesthetic and sometimes the drama and relationships between the core characters (when they're done well). The season to season plots and core mythology does little for me, not very well executed imo.

[Mara]

Season 4 may have had some clunkers, but it is probably my favorite season. I think it is likely because I remember this show more for the best of the episodes almost in a vacuum as opposed to the overarching storylines, and season 4 had more of my favorites than any other ("Hush", "Restless", "Who Are You?").

Those are great, great episodes.

But, yes, most of my problems are with the story arc for season 4. The Initiative and Adam were both stupid, stupid, stupid. And I hate Riley with his big stupid face.

Season 4 also has my two least favorite episodes of the entire series-- worse than anything in season 1, even-- with "Beer Bad" and "Where the Wild Things Are."

EDIT: I ranked seasons but now I'm questioning myself. Must consider.

[Qrazy]

Beer Bad features Buffy knocking Parker out with a stick not once but twice though.

[Mara]

Beer Bad features Buffy knocking Parker out with a stick not once but twice though.

And "Where the Wild Things Are" had Giles wearing an earring and singing "Behind Blue Eyes."

But I do not forgive them. No, sir, I do not. They were too awful overall.

[ledfloyd]

i'll never understand riley hate.

[Mara]

i'll never understand riley hate.

He is a terribly bland character, and the actor has no personal charisma. Every time Buffy went on and on about how much she loved him, I would just go, "...why?" There's no there there. And he and SMG have no chemistry.

I think a more talented actor may have pulled it off, but Marc Blucas is dull as dirt.

Nice abs, though.

[Lucky]

i'll never understand riley hate.

Whaaaat? I understand his character was purposely written to be bland, "normal", and safe, but he should have had no problem at least being charming and affable. Marc Blucas, however, is the worst main cast member the series has throughout its run and cannot even muster that. And I'm not even the biggest Riley hater -- I can tolerate him in Season 5.

[Mara]

Have you ever noticed, Mr. Lucky, that Riley is occasionally given Malcom Reynolds types of lines? They are playing with the good ol' boy soldier idea, but Blucas can't pull it off. (We can't all be N. Fillion.)

Like this, in The Yoko Factor:


Way I heard it, you were all peaceable now. You didn't by any chance go and lose that pesky soul again, did you?

That's soooo Mal.

[Lucky]

Don't think differently of me, but....I've only seen one episode of Firefly. *blush*

[Mara]

Don't think differently of me, but....I've only seen one episode of Firefly. *blush*

Then, you only have thirteen to go. Chop chop. Really, it's worth seeing. Funny, wrenching, self-assured, charming, and chock full of big damn heroes.

If you were Qrazy, you'd have them done by early afternoon tomorrow.

[Raiders]

In looking over all my favorite episodes (as I said, I look back on this show in terms of individual episodes instead of story arcs) I think I can basically just recount those written by either Whedon or Espenson and ignore the rest. Shame those two didn't just do all the episodes themselves. It could have been MEGA-awesome.

[Mara]

David Fury and Marti Noxon both had some good moments on Buffy and on Angel. But Noxon would occasionally stumble with a really bad episode.

And David and Marti both had hilarious cameos in "Once More, with Feeling." David also had a cameo on Angel's "Smile Time," but less hilarious, more disturbing.

Jane Espensen is my hero. She could be the next Joss, no joke.

[Mara]

Oh, hey, I forgot David & Marti were both in "Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog", too.

[Mara]

Oh, man. "Once More, with Feeling."

KF has to watch season six. HE MUST.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, that ep is real good and the season is quite excellent also.

[Lucky]

Oh, man. "Once More, with Feeling."

KF has to watch season six. HE MUST.

Yeah, he has taken quite the hiatus here.

[Lucky]

Then, you only have thirteen to go. Chop chop. Really, it's worth seeing. Funny, wrenching, self-assured, charming, and chock full of big damn heroes.

If you were Qrazy, you'd have them done by early afternoon tomorrow.

Alright, I was reminded again that these are on Netflix instant watch so I'm going to take the plunge. Please elaborate on the recommended episode order, though, I know there was a discrepancy with the order that FOX aired them.

[Mara]

Alright, I was reminded again that these are on Netflix instant watch so I'm going to take the plunge. Please elaborate on the recommended episode order, though, I know there was a discrepancy with the order that FOX aired them.

Netflix has them in the correct order (the DVD order.)

After you watch it we'll tell you how Fox aired them, which will give you nice feelings of righteous indignation.

[Kurosawa Fan]

"Did your little Watcher life flash before your eyes? Tea, tea, tea, almost shagged... tea, tea, tea."

[Mara]

"Did your little Watcher life flash before your eyes? Tea, tea, tea, almost shagged... tea, tea, tea."

YAY WE MISSED YOU!

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm home sick, head pounding, can't breathe, slight cough, and I figured what the hell, I should get started on season 6. So glad I did, except three episodes in, and I'm missing the hell out of Giles.

[Mara]

So glad I did, except three episodes in, and I'm missing the hell out of Giles.

I love Giles, and his comings and goings in later seasons sadden me. (Apparently, Tony Head asked for more time off to spend with his family in England. There's actually some scenes filmed at his gorgeous English estate in Season 7, which are the only scenes ever not filmed in California.)

What I LIKE about Giles in the later seasons is that since he's not there all the time, he can be used very powerfully when he does show up. They've spent so many years building an emotional connection with him that whenever we see him after not seeing him for awhile, we have the same reaction as the characters-- we get breathless, shocked, and emotional. It's similar to the reaction they use whenever we see Joyce after season five.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Oh, wow. The end of "After Life" was fantastic. One of the highlights of the series. I love how this season is setting things up.

Though, I do have one issue:

Didn't Willow say that they couldn't kill that demon they created, otherwise Buffy would die too? And then Buffy kills the demon and everything is peachy. Did I miss something? I'm sick and the head is a bit foggy, so it's entirely possible I missed an explanation in there.

[Mara]

Oh, wow. The end of "After Life" was fantastic. One of the highlights of the series. I love how this season is setting things up.

That scene-- which is amazing-- pretty much sets up the tone and dynamic for the entire season. So I'm glad you liked it.



Didn't Willow say that they couldn't kill that demon they created, otherwise Buffy would die too? And then Buffy kills the demon and everything is peachy. Did I miss something? I'm sick and the head is a bit foggy, so it's entirely possible I missed an explanation in there.

As I recall, they couldn't reverse the spell that created it without killing Buffy. And they couldn't fight it as-is because it was non-corporeal. Once they bespelled it to give it a body, they could fight and kill it just fine.

[Mara]

You're inching towards my #2 episode of all time, and I'm giddy.

[Kurosawa Fan]

As I recall, they couldn't reverse the spell that created it without killing Buffy. And they couldn't fight it as-is because it was non-corporeal. Once they bespelled it to give it a body, they could fight and kill it just fine.

Ah, that makes much more sense. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go into work for a couple hours to fill in, so ep. 4 will probably be my last for the time being.

[Mara]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go into work for a couple hours to fill in, so ep. 4 will probably be my last for the time being.

That's lame that you have to go in sick. Feel better.

[Mara]

Honestly, y'all, 6.7 is my #2 pick for the whole series because you're just not going to top "The Body," but I really think OMWF is my most-often rewatched episode. It's just the epitome of who much Joss knows about pure entertainment. It's rare to think about the episode without suddenly realizing I'm in the mood for it, and then going and popping some popcorn.

Blah blah blah... I'm rewatching it now.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Made it all the way through "Tabula Rasa." I'm loving this season. However, I'm going to disappoint you, Mara. I wasn't as impressed with OMWF as I wanted to be. Half of the musical numbers fell totally flat for me, especially Tara's song to Willow in the beginning and Tara and Giles' duet in the Magic Box. It was a very good episode, don't get me wrong. I LOVED Anya's bit about the bunnies (though it was trumped by her high jinks in "Tabula Rasa") and her song with Xander, as well as Spike and Buffy's storyline. In the end though, too many of the interludes didn't work for me to list it among my favorite episodes, instead a very good episode with a couple favorite moments (particularly Willow's reaction to Buffy's confession about what Willow took her away from. Hannigan knocked that moment out of the park).

"Tabula Rasa," on the other hand, has been my favorite of the season, and may be among my favorite episodes ever. Effortlessly juggled the silliness with the heart-wrenching.

[Mara]

Woohoo, they both made my list!

2. Once More, With Feeling (6.7)
Written & Directed by Joss Whedon

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/omwf_001.jpg


GILES: I've got a theory
That it's a demon
A dancing demon!
No, something isn't right there.

WILLOW: I've got a theory
Some kid is dreamin'
And we're all stuck inside his wacky Broadway nightmare.

XANDER: I've got a theory we should work this out.

ANYA/TARA/WILLOW/XANDER: It's getting eerie, what's this cheery singing all about?

Summary: And in a complete tonal shift: SINGING! DANCING! FUN! Okay, some sad stuff, but mostly fun. A demon is accidentally released in Sunnydale that makes people sing out their deepest thoughts at full voice. And some people dance to death.

Why I love it: Singing and dancing are always on my happy list. The songs are catchy and singable, and the cast has surprisingly good singing chops.

BUFFY CAST AS SINGERS, RANKED:
1. Giles
2. Tara
3. Anya
4. Buffy
5. Spike
6. Xander

7. Willow

8. Dawn

But beyond the fact that it's a "gimmick" episode, there's some serious stuff going on here. Season 6 is heavily based around the lies and deceptions that the characters keep telling each other and themselves. This episode acts as a cataclysm that brings out the deep fissures and insecurities in the relationships. This about it: beyond the Big Reveal that Buffy was pulled out of heaven, we also have [troubles] for Xander and Anya, and Willow and Tara, and Giles and Buffy, all three couples which looked extremely stable previously. We also have the beginning of a destructive relationship between Spike and Buffy. Beyond the cheery singing and dancing, this is an episode where everything goes straight to hell.

Interesting Tidbits:

Now that we're on a more permissive network, Tara and Willow are allowed to get pretty freaky on screen.

You all probably already know this, but Jane Espenson (who wrote 12 episodes on my top 35 list, well done!) is the parking ticket lady, and David Fury (also awesome) is the Mustard Guy. And the Mutant Enemy "GRRR... ARGH..." is sung by Joss Whedon.

The newspaper that Xander is reading during "I'll Never Tell" has this headline: "Mayhem Caused: Monsters Certainly Not Involved, Officials Say." Ah, Sunnydale.

28. Tabula Rasa (6.8)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/tabula_rasa_608.jpg


"Joan": I kill your kind.

"Randy": And I bite yours. So how come I don't want to bite you? And why am I fighting other vampires? I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of redemption. I help the helpless. I'm a vampire with a soul!

"Joan": A vampire with a soul? Oh my God. How lame is that?

Summary: In an effort to rectify two major mistakes (meddling with Tara's memories and resurrecting Buffy) Willow tries a memory-erasing spell that backfires and gives the gang amnesia.

Why I love it: The bulk of the story in this episode is amusing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/tabula_rasa_354.jpg
VAMPIRES OOOOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOEEEEESSSSSS!

But the bookends are deeply sad, particularly the "Goodbye to You" song while Tara packs her gear to leave Willow... and poor Dawn, who has had her share of abandonment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/tabula_rasa_742.jpg

The bulk of the episode, though, is tons of dramatic irony fun times. As an audience, we know how these disparate pieces fit together, but watching our mind-wiped heroes try to reassemble them is a riot. In some ways, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Xander is still a horndog, Tara and Willow are still attracted, Buffy and Dawn are still loving and adversarial. Where they get things wrong, of course, is where hilarity ensues-- Giles and Spike as father and son, and Giles and Anya as lovers.

This episode is about rediscovering, as Oz would have put it, "Our lives are different from other people's."


"Joan": Monsters are real. Did we know this?

Interesting Tidbits:

This episode has one of the oddest payoffs that was set up in "Restless." In the sequence of "Restless" when Spike is wearing a tweed suit, and Buffy is in the sandbox, there is this exchange:


XANDER: You gotta have something. Gotta be with movin' forward.

BUFFY: Like a shark.

XANDER: Like a shark with feet and ... much less fins.

SPIKE: And on land!

This episode pays that off with Spike, dressed in a tweed suit, being chased by a "land shark"-- but not just a loan collector, but a literal shark.

Also during that same scene in "Restless," Spike and Giles redefine their relationship:


SPIKE: Giles here is gonna teach me to be a Watcher. Says I got the stuff.

GILES: Spike's like a son to me.

...and, of course, in "Tabula Rasa" they actually mistake themselves for father and son.

(Also, note: does anyone else think it's interesting that William started out with a posh, refined accent that became a tougher, street accent as he got older, but Giles did the opposite? It's interesting from a narrative perspective, but I don't think people actually do that for reaslies.)

[Mara]

I think a lot of Once More, with Feeling revolves around your feelings about musicals to begin with. I'm a huge fan, of course, and I never fail to snicker at Anya's in-jokes about the genre: "Ours was a retro-pastiche number." "Would you say it was more of a book number, or more of a break-away pop hit?" "It's like there were three walls in our living room, and not four!"

[Dead & Messed Up]

So. "Beer Bad" was certainly an episode. Let it not be said that wasn't an episode.

[Mara]

So. "Beer Bad" was certainly an episode. Let it not be said that wasn't an episode.

I have it tied with another for the worst episode of the series. It's... just... awful.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I have it tied with another for the worst episode of the series. It's... just... awful.

Is that other episode ahead of me or behind me?

I can stomach another "Beer Bad," considering how much I've enjoyed the show up to now, but wow, what a graceless way to end her obsession with Parker. Also, bonus negative points for wasting Kal Penn.

[Lucky]

Is that other episode ahead of me or behind me?

I can stomach another "Beer Bad," considering how much I've enjoyed the show up to now, but wow, what a graceless way to end her obsession with Parker. Also, bonus negative points for wasting Kal Penn.

It's ahead of you. This season, too. I think it's called "Where the Wild Things Are" or something along those lines.

In my opinion, it's worse than "Beer Bad."

[Lucky]

K-Fan, what did you think of the mummy hand? :lol:

[Kurosawa Fan]

K-Fan, what did you think of the mummy hand? :lol:

Awesome. Beyond awesome. That entire sequence was fantastic. And I like that the "baddies" this season are so inconsequential, with Buffy going through such a traumatic event. It'd be too much if there was a huge, serious threat in town right now.

[Qrazy]

Awesome. Beyond awesome. That entire sequence was fantastic. And I like that the "baddies" this season are so inconsequential, with Buffy going through such a traumatic event. It'd be too much if there was a huge, serious threat in town right now.

Just you wait.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Just you wait.

Well, that's why I added the "right now." I'm open to a super baddie, that's usually a good thing for the show, but I'm glad they allowed Buffy to adjust and for the gang to work out some of the drama and awkwardness before introduction of said baddie.

[Qrazy]

Well, that's why I added the "right now." I'm open to a super baddie, that's usually a good thing for the show, but I'm glad they allowed Buffy to adjust and for the gang to work out some of the drama and awkwardness before introduction of said baddie.

You'll see. I think you'll love the direction they take the material.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm through "Smashed." Quite an ending to that one. A bit corny, what with the house literally falling down and whatnot, but interesting developments, to be sure. Can't wait to see how far Willow falls.

[Lucky]

I'm through "Smashed." Quite an ending to that one. A bit corny, what with the house literally falling down and whatnot, but interesting developments, to be sure. Can't wait to see how far Willow falls.

You haven't been spoiled on anything this season, have you?

[Kurosawa Fan]

You haven't been spoiled on anything this season, have you?

Nada. Been like that for the entire series. The only thing I knew going in was that Buffy hooked up with Angel, and eventually with Spike. Everything else has been revealed at the proper moment.

EDIT: Oh, and I watched "Wasted" as well, though I'm going to have to stop there for the night. Solid episode, though a gain with a bit of the corniness with Willow's "high" moments.

[Mara]

EDIT: Oh, and I watched "Wasted" as well, though I'm going to have to stop there for the night. Solid episode, though a gain with a bit of the corniness with Willow's "high" moments.

I don't have a problem with them equating Willow's magic abuse with addiction, if they weren't just hitting all the stereotypical, cliched stuff. It feels a tiny bit silly.

At the same time, it's perfectly on par with the theme of the season, which is that the worst demons are internal to the characters, instead of external.

Season six has grown on me over time. The first time I watched it, it just felt so... sad. I love these characters, and I hate watching them suffer and suffer and suffer.

But I've gained an appreciation of how much guts it took to let the characters grow up so much, and change so much. It's not easy to make a good, likeable character make really bad choices (and all three of our main characters make really bad choices in season six.) But it's essential to the development of the show, and without all that lovely character development, what sets BtVS apart from all the silly monster-of-the-week shows out there?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Oy. "Doublemeat Palace." Not so great. Easily the worst episode of the season.


(and all three of our main characters make really bad choices in season six.)

All THREE?? DO NOT WANT, MARA! DO. NOT. WANT!

[Mara]

Oy. "Doublemeat Palace." Not so great. Easily the worst episode of the season.

Qrazy and I were just discussing this a few pages back. I don't like it either, although I think it has interesting elements.

PROS: I'm glad they didn't just hand-wave away Buffy's money problems. Realistically, what would a girl in her situation do? She has a dependent, for goodness' sakes. And some of the humor about the evil monotony of the job is genuinely funny.

And I understand that this whole season is sort of a slow march towards everyone's personal low point, and as a writer I understand why seeing Buffy dirty and greasy and slinging burgers and having degrading, dead-eyed sex with Spike in the alley next to a dumpster are all steps in that development.

But...

CONS: It is... just... disgusting. So, so gross. The burgers and the ear grease and the smell and the nasty dead-eyed sex just freak me out.

Also, the MacGuffin plot with the "mystery meat" and wig lady was just ridiculous.

[Mara]

The spoilers above were for people who haven't seen that episode, btw. Not giving away the whole season or anything.


All THREE?? DO NOT WANT, MARA! DO. NOT. WANT!

Going back and rewatching this season is particularly painful. From the first episode with the resurrection-- "No. Don't. REALLY DON'T."

[Kurosawa Fan]

Qrazy and I were just discussing this a few pages back. I don't like it either, although I think it has interesting elements.

PROS: I'm glad they didn't just hand-wave away Buffy's money problems. Realistically, what would a girl in her situation do? She has a dependent, for goodness' sakes. And some of the humor about the evil monotony of the job is genuinely funny.

And I understand that this whole season is sort of a slow march towards everyone's personal low point, and as a writer I understand why seeing Buffy dirty and greasy and slinging burgers and having degrading, dead-eyed sex with Spike in the alley next to a dumpster are all steps in that development.

But...

CONS: It is... just... disgusting. So, so gross. The burgers and the ear grease and the smell and the nasty dead-eyed sex just freak me out.

Also, the MacGuffin plot with the "mystery meat" and wig lady was just ridiculous.

Totally agree with everything there, except for one thing:

The dead-eyed sex doesn't make sense for either character. Spike has shown that he wants all of Buffy or nothing at all, and even turned her away when she was invisible. Not only that, but Buffy has always enjoyed the sex between the two of them. So her dead-eyed expression, as if it's some obligation for her, felt really inconsistent. I think that's been my biggest complaint this season. It feels like the writers aren't quite sure how to handle the Spike/Buffy relationship, and are just winging it as they go along. It's the only thing that has felt a bit off for me.

The episode wasn't among the worst all-time, but it certainly wasn't very good.

[Mara]

The dead-eyed sex doesn't make sense for either character. Spike has shown that he wants all of Buffy or nothing at all, and even turned her away when she was invisible. Not only that, but Buffy has always enjoyed the sex between the two of them. So her dead-eyed expression, as if it's some obligation for her, felt really inconsistent. I think that's been my biggest complaint this season. It feels like the writers aren't quite sure how to handle the Spike/Buffy relationship, and are just winging it as they go along. It's the only thing that has felt a bit off for me.


I think what they wanted to show was a sort of anesthetizing sex-- she's so emotionally low and numb that she sort of figures... why not.

But generally they show her relationship with Spike to be the opposite: she's so emotionally numb from her mortal-coil-reentry-problems that she seeks him out so that she can feel something and be passionate about something. Even if she feels like it's degrading.

So I understand your complaints. The tone is certainly inconsistent.

[Mara]

Oh, and this may be petty, but I hate Buffy's season six hair. Everyone gushes all over her: "Oh, so cute! So short!"

BLECH. It looks awful. It's almost as bad as the short-lived "bangs debacle" from season three. Luckily she grows it out again for season seven.

[ledfloyd]

It's almost as bad as the short-lived "bangs debacle" from season three.
dear god. i usually LOVE bangs on girls but that was awful.

[Mara]

dear god. i usually LOVE bangs on girls but that was awful.

Some girls look cute with bangs. Willow looks cute with bangs. Willow looks cute with short hair. Willow looked cute with long hair. Willow ALWAYS looks cute.

Buffy looks best when her hair is long, golden (not white) blonde, and wavy (not curly.) I also accept her scraped-back ready-to-slay look, because a girl can't let herself get distracted with fly-aways.






Still, can we all agree that what was done with Cordy's hair in Angel was much, much worse? Nothing really rivals that debacle in the hair-related Whedon canon.

[ledfloyd]

Still, can we all agree that what was done with Cordy's hair in Angel was much, much worse? Nothing really rivals that debacle in the hair-related Whedon canon.
i'm still feeling the effects of that one. why mess with cordy? she's perfect!

and in shows filled with as many hair and fashion faux-pas saying that's the worst is pretty impressive.

which, speaking of, i was watching the replacement a couple weeks ago, and PANTS!

[Mara]

which, speaking of, i was watching the replacement a couple weeks ago, and PANTS!

The worst pants were mid-season six to early season 5. Seasons one and two, she used to wear skirts, which were cute, if impractical. In seasons six and seven they let her finally wear some jeans, which look great on her.

But Buffy's all-time worst outfit EVER was in "The Replacement" and it means a lot to me that you noticed. I feel very close to you right now.

Hold on, I just found the post where I actually talked about this on MC. Bumping.

[Mara]

During my leapfrogging of the seasons, I've stumbled across something troubling that I don't think I've seen discussed on any Buffy boards.

During late season 4 / early season 5 Buffy seemed to go through a tragic phase of particularly unfortunate pants.

Television seems to be a mostly waist-an-up medium, so I apologize for the quality of these screencaps:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/4X18_Where_The_Wild_Things_Are __023.jpg
"Where the Wild Things Are"-- serviceable, bulky gray sweater: okay. Slick reptile-print pants: horrible.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/5X03_The_replacement__213_1.jp g
"The Replacement": possibly Buffy's ugliest-ever clothes. The striped, glittery halter-top sweater ain't pretty, the non-glittery bathrope-type sweater clashes badly, and the tie-dyed brown pants are nightmare-inducing. It's like the world's worst Laundry Day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/5X01_Buffy_vs_Dracula_0290_1.j pg
And in "Buffy vs. Dracula," Buffy wears the same pair of unflattering, shiny plastic pants in red....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/5X01_Buffy_vs_Dracula_1005_1.j pg
...and pink.

What is Joss trying to tell us? Something about modern feminity and the nature of heroism/myth? Or, possibly, that women make really bad choices from the waist down? (Hee hee hee.)

Here it is.

[Mara]

Hmm. I thought that Supernatural had the biggest power-grab for former Buffy alums, but now I think there were only three and a half:

Mercedes McNab (Harmony)
Julie Benz (Darla)
Amber Benson (Tara)
Amy Acker (Fred) (1/2 point)

So I think the Buffy alum crown goes to How I Met Your Mother. I guess unsurprising, since Alyson Hannigan is a main cast member.

Alyson Hannigan (Willow)
Alexis Denisof (Wesley)
Tom Lenk (Andrew)
Danny Strong (Jonathon)
Harry Groener (The Mayor)
Amy Acker (Fred) (1/2 point)

[Lucky]

Hmm. I thought that Supernatural had the biggest power-grab for former Buffy alums, but now I think there were only three and a half:

Mercedes McNab (Harmony)
Julie Benz (Darla)
Amber Benson (Tara)
Amy Acker (Fred) (1/2 point)

So I think the Buffy alum crown goes to How I Met Your Mother. I guess unsurprising, since Alyson Hannigan is a main cast member.

Alyson Hannigan (Willow)
Alexis Denisof (Wesley)
Tom Lenk (Andrew)
Danny Strong (Jonathon)
Harry Groener (The Mayor)
Amy Acker (Fred) (1/2 point)

Going along this road, I don't know if you heard the news but CBS ordered a pilot called "The Ringer" starring SMG with a screenplay written by two Supernatural writers.

[Lucky]

I'm looking forward to KF's reaction to "Normal Again." One of my favorite episodes, but seems to be a dividing wall with fans.

[Mara]

Going along this road, I don't know if you heard the news but CBS ordered a pilot called "The Ringer" starring SMG with a screenplay written by two Supernatural writers.

Oh really.

The writing for Supernatural is really hit or miss, but when it's good, it's really solid. I'll have to check that out.

[Mara]

I'm looking forward to KF's reaction to "Normal Again." One of my favorite episodes, but seems to be a dividing wall with fans.

It made my top 35, but not very high. I like the idea of it, but I think there were a couple flaws in execution.

I can't wait for KF's reaction to "As You Were." Because he is going to be pissed.

Heh heh heh.

[ledfloyd]

But Buffy's all-time worst outfit EVER was in "The Replacement" and it means a lot to me that you noticed. I feel very close to you right now.
haha. it's pretty hard not to notice. i remember that pants post, because i remember saying i liked the red pants, and i stand by that. i apparently blocked out the memory of that outfit though. for good reason.

amy acker is on supernatural? that might be enough to get me to give it a chance.

[Mara]

amy acker is on supernatural? that might be enough to get me to give it a chance.

She's only on for one episode, but she's pretty charming.

I think Amy is adorable and I want her to find a high quality long term project so I can continue to crush on her.


Wesley: Consider her armed, dangerous, and quite possibly insane. Don't let her grace or gentle beauty fool you. Winifred Burkle is a monster, a siren hoping to lure you away from Jasmine and onto the rocks of heresy and destruction.

Or, better yet:


Fred: All this stuff about bachanals and spells... Actually I think it's funnier in Latin, you know how that is sometimes.

Willow: ...I'm seeing someone.

[Mara]

Ha. CNN has an article wishing Buffy a Happy 30th Birthday (http://www.cnn.com/2011/SHOWBIZ/01/19/buffy.birthday/index.html?hpt=C2) today.

Spoilers through Season 8 comics. You have been warned.

[ledfloyd]

I think Amy is adorable and I want her to find a high quality long term project so I can continue to crush on her.
dollhouse was a good way to extend my undying crush for amy acker.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Kudos to SMG for her performance at the end of "Dead Things." Seriously, really well done. Another very solid episode. This season is shaping up to be my favorite. I hope it delivers through the end, unlike season five.

[Mara]

Kudos to SMG for her performance at the end of "Dead Things." Seriously, really well done.

The episode is interesting but not phenomenal, except for that last scene between Buffy and Tara. Excellent work by both of them.


This season is shaping up to be my favorite.

That would put you in the minority. A lot of fans seem to pick one thing out of season six to hate beyond all reason. Some hate the overall darker tone. Some hate Spike/Buffy. Some hate The Trio. Some hate the reveal of the eventual main villain.

I don't hate any of those things. And although it's not my favorite, I find that season six has a lot to offer.


I hope it delivers through the end, unlike season five.

Awww, I love the season five ending.

[Mara]

And just for the record, since it's controversial:

Andrew is one of my all-time favorite Buffy characters. I love you, Andrew Wells, Tucker's brother.

[number8]

Hey Mara, news about Season 8. The creators basically admitted they went crazy with the unlimited budget and lost control, so now they pseudo-rebooted and are going back to basics starting with the latest issue.

Giles is dead, left everything in his will to Faith and not Buffy, Magick is gone, Willow went dark, Angel has PTSD or something and is hated by everyone for killing Giles, the Slayer Army all quit because Buffy and Angel's super-flying-sex destroyed Earth and don't want to be associated with her.

So now Buffy is the lone wolf Slayer again, with barely any friends and hated by the entire Wiccan community. And vampires.

[Mara]

The creators basically admitted they went crazy with the unlimited budget and lost control

Oh, yeah, ya think?

Season 8 is so bonkers. But I keep reading it because I'm curious how they can possibly get where they're going with it. I still have to read "Last Gleaming" and then I think Season 8 is done.

I'm semi-hoping they don't do a season 9. Because I know I'd end up reading it, and I'd probably end up regretting it.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Fucking Riley. Blech.

[Mara]

And this may sound shallow, but the Season 8 artists do an okay job of drawing the main actors so they are at least recognizable.

However, they simply cannot get

Faith

in those line drawings. She looks awful. (The single-page super arty prints are better.) And, considering that the comic books are pretty much just fan-fetish, you've kind of failed if you can't even make them attractive.

[Mara]

Fucking Riley. Blech.

Ha! I knew you'd hate that.

I like "Older and Far Away," though, and your next two episodes after effing Riley leaves are both on my top list.

[Kurosawa Fan]

All of the military speak is just written so poorly. That, combined with Riley's insufferable good-guy schtick, brings up the bile in my throat.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Ha! I knew you'd hate that.

I like "Older and Far Away," though, and your next two episodes after effing Riley leaves are both on my top list.

Please tell me he's only in this one episode. Please?

[Mara]

Please tell me he's only in this one episode. Please?

Yeah, yeah, don't worry.

It's so funny, because I generally get excited when they bring back old characters (Oz, Faith, the Mayor's little postmortem cameo, etc.) but I was just like, "Aw, crap, RILEY." Most useless nostalgic call-back ever.

Although his little face-scar is kinda hot.

[ledfloyd]

I hope it delivers through the end, unlike season five.
wait, what was your problem with the end of season 5?

and i think the ending of season 6 is one of the strongest parts of it.

[ledfloyd]

i've been rereading season 8 in preparation for reading the final arc. really aside from the fray crossover being a bit hard to wrap your head around i don't have too many problems with it. perhaps the giant stuffed cat monster. i really like the japan stuff though and the faith arc. also, andrew is hilarious in it. moreso than usual.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Through "Hell's Bells." Pretty shattering stuff there. Now how am I supposed to go out to dinner with my parents? I'm going to be dumpy for no reason whatsoever.

As for season five, ledfloyd, I thought

the Buffy sacrifice was one of those out of left field, bait and switch moves that I detest so much in films and TV shows. It really hurt what was otherwise a pretty great season.

That, and Riley's presence, of course.

[Mara]

I find most of season six pretty shattering.

My thoughts on Hell's Bells:

31. Hell's Bells (6.16)
Written by Rebecca Rand Kirshner, Directed by David Solomon

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/hells_bells_491.jpg


Anya: I, Anya, want to marry you, Xander, because I love you and I'll always love you. And before I knew you, I was like a completely different person. Not even a person, really. I had seen what love could do to people, and it was hurt and sadness. Alone was better. And then, suddenly there was you, and you knew me. You saw me, and it was this... thing. You make me feel safe and warm. So, I get it now. I finally get love, Xander. I really do.

Summary: Xander and Anya try to get married. It doesn't work out too well.

Why I love it: The prettiest Anya ever (her hair!) does her best acting ever, as she recaps her own transition from human to demon and back again. [EDITED FOR SPOILERS]

Hey, remember how I keep going on and on about how much I love Xander? I really do. I hope you understand, then, how serious this is: I WILL NEVER FORGIVE HIM FOR LEAVING ANYA AT THE ALTAR. Xander, you bastard.

I'm not a huge fan of the flash-forward scenes, but there's plenty of fun and insight to be had in Xander and Anya's dysfunctional families, and Buffy's crazy attempts to stall the ceremony.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/hells_bells_551.jpg

Good stuff.

Interesting Tidbit:

Have you ever noticed that Anya's evilness is completely tied into her hair color? The eviler she is, the more brunette. So, she starts off a dark brown in season 3, and it gets lighter and lighter as she falls for Xander until this episode, when it's blonde as a buttercup. [EDITED FOR SPOILERS]

Really... bad... decisions.

[Lucky]

Her delivery of her little wedding vow that you quoted up there always gets me. In fact, Emma Caulfield is really good at deilvering lines like that. Another line that, out of context, is written very cheesily but she turns into a genuine "Aww" moment is in the Season 5 finale. "Give it to me when the world doesn't end."

[Lucky]

Rewatched "Hell's Bells" tonight. Oy, not a fan of this one. Too campy for me. Fits right in with my major complaint about Season 6 - tonal inconsistency. There are some pitch-perfect moments to be found most notably the scene with Xander and Willow, and Anya rehearsing her vow that Mara quoted above. I also enjoy Buffy's "minotor/minotaur" excuse.

[Qrazy]

Fuck you Xander. I hope I'm never Xander.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Fuck you Xander. I hope I'm never Xander.

Yep. Unforgivable move.

[ledfloyd]

i've been rereading season 8 in preparation for reading the final arc. really aside from the fray crossover being a bit hard to wrap your head around i don't have too many problems with it. perhaps the giant stuffed cat monster. i really like the japan stuff though and the faith arc. also, andrew is hilarious in it. moreso than usual.
and around issue 31 or 32 it goes fucking batshit.

[Lucky]

I picked up the Season 8 Motion Comic DVD yesterday mostly because I was floored they stocked it in an actual store. It only has comics #1-19 on it, though, so I expect another volume will be out shortly.

It's...weird. I know nearly all of you say it's batshit crazy at times, but man, this doesn't even feel like Buffy. Whichever one of you said it's like fan-fic is spot on. The only issues I've enjoyed so far are the one with the Buffy decoy and the one where Faith goes undercover.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I watched "Something Blue" and "Hush" last night. Wowzers.

[Mara]

I watched "Something Blue" and "Hush" last night. Wowzers.

Two of my favorites. I still think The Gentlemen are the single scariest one-off villains in the entire show. So creepy.

And the writing in Hush just blows me away. It's not easy to write silence.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Two of my favorites. I still think The Gentlemen are the single scariest one-off villains in the entire show. So creepy.

And the writing in Hush just blows me away. It's not easy to write silence.

Without doubt. Their graceful movement and joy gives them a lot more interest than the standard demons.

I also suspect that fan-shippers went into seizures during "Something Blue."

[Mara]

I also suspect that fan-shippers went into seizures during "Something Blue."

SPIKE LIPS! LIPS OF SPIKE!

Buffy: Spike and I are getting married!
Xander: How? What? How?
Giles: Three excellent questions.

[ledfloyd]

And the writing in Hush just blows me away. It's not easy to write silence.
i like all the talk about communication at the beginning. and then the final line. perfect.

[Mara]

Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna watch the unaired pilot. I've always meant to for fun. I've heard it's AWFUL. Review to follow.

[Mara]

Five minutes in:

Darla: early 90's floral "sack" dress, over black leggings, white ankle socks, and saddle shoes. Yiiikes.

Buffy: microscopic skirt. I think it's a reappropriated headband.

Willow: OH MY EYES MY EYES. She's awful. It's like they cast someone's cousin in a television show on a dare. I'm not surprised they recast her.

I'm surprised they recast Principal Flutie. In the unaired pilot, he's Stephen Tobolowsky, who is always awesome.

[Mara]

Ten minutes in: that scene where the old hat shows the new kids where all the high school cliques hang out. This scene exists in so many television shows and movies, and yet never manifests in real life. If it did, I wouldn't have been questioned by the police in high school when it turned out a weirdo kid who always sat in "my" corner before school was calling in bomb threats. In the winter. In Michigan. Jerk.

[Mara]

Fifteen minutes in: Dingoes Ate My Baby are making a pre-season 2 cameo, sans Seth Green, of course.

Giles is so much better than this pilot it's just embarassing.

[Mara]

Twenty minutes in: hey, Danny Strong! In glasses!

But then we get a scene between other-Willow and a vampire that is strictly amateur hour. I hate those scenes where two people talk, and one is a vampire, and the non-vampire is talking with his/her back to the vampire for easy access biting. NOBODY holds a conversation with their back turned to the other person.

It doesn't help that these two people can't act.

[Mara]

All done. The climactic fight scene actually wasn't bad... it was the first time they felt like they were having any fun. Although they could only afford to show one dusting on-screen, and it was a freaking weird effect. Also, apparently you can kill a vampire by sticking a cross in its face, which is so easy that it's kind of ridiculous.

Silly, silly, silly. I can't believe the show was ever green-lit given that pilot.

[Lucky]

The other Willow was awful, indeed. I once heard a rumor that Ryan Reynolds was originally considered for the role of Xander. Would have been interesting to see how that turned out.

[ledfloyd]

i didn't even know of the existence of an unaired pilot. i feel like a bad buffy fan.

[Mara]

The other Willow was awful, indeed.

In the YouTube comments, everyone was being snarky about her weight. It wasn't a weight issue-- shy, nerdy Willow can be overweight-- it's that she was completely uncharming and a terrible actress.

[Raiders]

Who the hell names their daughter Riff?

[Mara]

Who the hell names their daughter Riff?

Maybe they wanted a son.

No, sorry, not "son," I meant "guitar."

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yikes. "Entropy" lived up to it's title.

[Mara]

Ack, we missed "Normal Again"!

23. Normal Again (6.17)
Written by Diego Gutierrez, Directed by James Contner

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/NormalAgain350.jpg


Buffy: 'Cause what's more real? A sick girl in an institution, or some kind of supergirl, chosen to fight demons and save the world? That's ridiculous. A girl who sleeps with the vampire she hates?!? Yeah, that makes sense.

Summary: Buffy is stung by a demon with a poison that causes her to hallucinate, but her hallucinations try to convince her that her life in Sunnydale is a delusion.

Why I love it: Usually, when the show mocks its own conventions, it does it for comic effect. However, in this episode, it is profoundly sad. The return of Joyce (and even more shockingly, Hank) to offer Buffy a world where she doesn't have to be a superhero, where she can be "normal again" is a grave temptation.

From a meta-story perspective, this episode is a vital turning point in Buffy's journey. I talked about it in my paper. You read my paper, right?

What this means in Buffy and Dawn's relationship is even more heartbreaking.


DAWN: I'm not even there, am I?

BUFFY: What?

DAWN: You said it a second ago. You don't have a sister. It's your ideal reality, and I'm not even a part of it.

As an audience, it is really upsetting to watch Buffy attack her friends and her sister, with that dead look in her eyes. But her choice to turn around and choose the life that is harder is, I think, one of the most heroic choices she makes.

"Entropy" is sad, but the whole season is sad. Still: poor Anya. Her little moment: "They all still love you!" just kills me, because she really always has been a friend's girlfriend, not really integrated into the group, and when she loses Xander, she pretty much loses her entire support system.

The next four episodes, by the way, are of a piece-- sort of a four-part season finale.


Great to see you posting on this again. Makes my day.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Crap. Don't know how I forgot to post about that one. I watched it weeks ago. Liked it a lot, and agree with your assessment.

As for watching, I'm not sure I'll have much time to watch any more. I have two papers to write/finish in the next two weeks. Maybe over the break in March I can finish season six. It's been an unusually slow day at work, and so I figured I'd squeeze in an episode during lunch. Glad I did.

[Mara]

Crap. Don't know how I forgot to post about that one.

How DARE you watch a television episode without recapping it immediately on the internet! WE ARE NO LONGER FRIENDS.


Okay, I forgive you, but JUST THIS ONCE.

Watch when you can. I hate to say it, but I really don't think there should be big breaks in the last four episodes. Wait until you can see them all within, say, a week. Or you'll be tearing your hair out.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Okay, thanks for the advice. I'll hold off until the break.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Put a review up on my blog for Season Three (http://horrorfilms101.blogspot.com). Haven't resumed watching Season Four since "Hush." I have to get over it, accept that few episodes will ever be that good, and move on. (A similar problem happened for me and "Home" from X-Files).

I'll repost:


Flying out of the sky, he once again show us why he sets the standard for so many. Many see him as a naive boyscout whipped by his own selflessness. They will not, cannot, see him for what he is: a hero.
- Batman, on Superman

At some point or another, I stop caring about the hero. I lost interest in Ben Hawkins. I lost interest in Jack Shepherd. I lost interest in Jimmy McNulty and Lee "Apollo" Adama. God help me, I even lost interest in Mal Reynolds. None of these heroes are poorly-written or poorly-acted (well, maybe Apollo), but they all carry the inherent problem of a lead hero. They have to hold the story together. They have to balance the more colorful side characters. They have to be reliable, and "reliable" is not what a show like Buffy wants to be.

So the all-star creative staff of Buffy created Faith. The new slayer, charged with her responsibility after Buffy bit it at the end of Season One, Faith (Eliza Dushku) represents all the exciting things that Buffy could be. Sexual. Flippant. Daring and transgressive. Buffy's the Slayer, after all (well, "a" Slayer now), so why shouldn't she make like Faith and indulge herself? After all the horror she's witnessed, like killing her lover and, y'know, dying, why not just dance and screw all that angst away? Despite Giles's consternation and credulity, Buffy cuts loose.

Buffy's dark side doesn't dominate the season, since only two episodes ("Homecoming" and "Bad Girls") focus exclusively on Buffy satisfying her baser desires, but its spectre colors the season in sharper relief, since she's constantly working with Faith. When watching Season Two, I felt like the show expanded from traditional detective fiction into soap opera; less Kolchak, more Dark Shadows. This expansion sometimes blurred the focus of the series, but Season Three rediscovers Buffy by showing us her opposite.

When introduced, Faith's mannerisms feel forced and unconvincing. One of her first lines: "Ain't it crazy how slaying just always makes you hungry and horny?" However, her character deepens the more we see her solitude and fears, to the point that her attitude (which plays like an aggressive heightening of standard Buffy-speak) feels more and more like a shield against the world. And the more her "edginess" deteriorates over the season, the more Faith reveals herself, scared and frustrated, and the more impressive Eliza Dushku becomes.

Despite this central focus, the series feels larger than ever. The new villain, Mayor Wilkins (Harry Groener, perfect), has the usual apocalyptic plans for Sunnydale and the world, and the Scooby Gang gains a witch (Emma Caulfield), a werewolf (Seth Green, now a permanent fixture), and even a new watcher (Alexis Denisof). Meanwhile, Willow and Xander get their own showcases in two brilliant conceptual episodes: "Doppelgangland" and "The Zeppo." In the former, Willow faces her evil twin, a dispassionate vampire ("Bored now") first seen in the alternate world of "The Wish." In the latter, Xander's B-story persona lands in an A-story, as he deals with undead students who may unwittingly aid demons intent on re-opening the Hellmouth.

This broad canvas reaches its peak in final episodes like "Earshot," "The Prom," and "Graduation Day." The last episode is epic in scope and full of twists, but "The Prom" better fuses that sense of scale with the undercurrent of the season, which is that Buffy's nobility and sacrifice deserve our attention. As she learns from her classmates that her heroism hasn't been completely ignored, Buffy the Vampire Slayer hits an emotional peak it may never reach again. With these kids leaving for college, the outsized emotions of high school will most likely give way to more moderate adult concerns. They'll never be as young as they are right now.

Oh, and when I said "all-star creative staff" earlier, holy moly. This group of writers and story editors is stunning, one of the most impressive groups in the history of serial television. Jane Espenson, who wrote "Band Candy," would go on to write for the spectacular re-imagining of Battlestar Galactica. David Greenwalt, who wrote "Faith, Hope, and Trick," would co-create Angel. David Fury would write for Lost and co-produce 24. Marti Noxon would contribute to Mad Men.

Meanwhile, Joss Whedon would struggle valiantly through Firefly and Dollhouse, when it seemed like no one was paying attention. But that's okay. That's what heroes do.

[Mara]

Oooh, great write up. I love your thoughts on Faith.

By the way, this:


As she learns from her classmates that her heroism hasn't been completely ignored, Buffy the Vampire Slayer hits an emotional peak it may never reach again. With these kids leaving for college, the outsized emotions of high school will most likely give way to more moderate adult concerns.

...is, I am happy to say, not entirely so. As the kids mature and become more able to handle adult concerns, the stakes keep going up.

However, the horrors of high school never really leave our heroes. The last episode of season 4 (which is an AMAZING episode, even better than "Hush" IMO) has some great call-backs to how scarring Sunnydale High was... as does the first episode of season 7. (Hilariously.)

Keep going-- season 4 is uneven, but has some great moments and episodes.

[Lucky]

Ok, I trudged through the rest of the comic DVD the other night. And I am glad I did. The final issue (on the DVD, not the actual comic series) "Time of Your Life" was a satisfying and solid continuation of the Buffyverse. If there ever was a live action Season 8 -- this would have been a standout episode. It flows in a similar vein as "Normal Again" and "The Wish" with their melancholy alternate universes, but presents an even more interesting question to Buffy's heroic purpose. The first time I had a true emotional connection with this comic series was the scene where Buffy realizes her life's work was in vain. It struck the same chord in me as the novel "Remains of the Day" did. Anyway, I'm glad I made it this far because I have an urge to finish the rest of the series if the other half ever makes it to DVD.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Buffy and Angel are leaving Netflix Instant April 1st.

:cry:

I'll get through as much as I can.

[ledfloyd]

Buffy and Angel are leaving Netflix Instant April 1st.
hopefully it's one of those things that sometimes happens where it leaves and then comes right back. nobody should be deprived of the buffyverse.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, same thing happened with Dr. Who and it came right back.

[Mara]

Maybe they just need to renew a contract or something. I hope it doesn't go away-- I love having it so easy to access.

[[ETM]]

BTW, Mara, Glenn Hetrick, one of the three permanent judges on Face Off did sfx and makeup for both Buffy and Angel.

[Mara]

;329688']BTW, Mara, Glenn Hetrick, one of the three permanent judges on Face Off did sfx and makeup for both Buffy and Angel.

Yeah, I saw that! I watched the first episode and liked it a lot. The rest of the catching-up is on my to-do list. It's a really interesting premise, although I was surprised how nakedly unpleasant some of the contestants were. Considering that this is a field where you'd really have to know how to collaborate.

[[ETM]]

I was surprised how nakedly unpleasant some of the contestants were. Considering that this is a field where you'd really have to know how to collaborate.

They weed out those who shouldn't be there rather quickly, although I feel they're letting one through for drama. Hasn't bothered me too much.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Done with Season Four. Crazy final episode. Good final episode.

[ledfloyd]

Done with Season Four. Crazy final episode. Good final episode.
it's one of the few that rotates in and out of my 'best episode ever' spot. the one that's usually there is hush. the other two you haven't seen yet.

i watched the buffy movie last night. why? i'm not sure. but it's kind of amazing, for three reasons. 1. it was released in theaters. 2. someone watched it and thought financing a tv show based on it would be a good idea. 3. the tv show actually turned out to be exceptional.

[Mara]

Done with Season Four. Crazy final episode. Good final episode.

"Restless" is amazing. Considering how lame the Initiative/Riley/Adam plot was, I couldn't be happier that they wrapped it up early and gave us such a mind-bending, thought-provoking, and surprisingly funny ending to the season.

It's also pretty much an insider's guide to season 5, and even parts of season 6 and 7. If you go back later and watch it, it's amazing how cleverly they hint at future plot developments. In fact, there are plot developments that happen in season 5 that were hinted at during the dream sequence with Faith in Season 3 as well. (When they're making the bed together.) Whedon looooves his dream sequences.

[Mara]

I saw the film in theaters. :lol: It's one of the reasons I avoided the show for so long.

[Mara]

BUFFY: I think I need to find the others.

TARA: Be back before dawn.

[Dead & Messed Up]

"Restless" is amazing. Considering how lame the Initiative/Riley/Adam plot was, I couldn't be happier that they wrapped it up early and gave us such a mind-bending, thought-provoking, and surprisingly funny ending to the season.

It's also pretty much an insider's guide to season 5, and even parts of season 6 and 7. If you go back later and watch it, it's amazing how cleverly they hint at future plot developments. In fact, there are plot developments that happen in season 5 that were hinted at during the dream sequence with Faith in Season 3 as well. (When they're making the bed together.) Whedon looooves his dream sequences.

He did a terrific job crafting those sequences. The dream-logic was spot-on, and the technique was insane.

[Mara]

He did a terrific job crafting those sequences. The dream-logic was spot-on, and the technique was insane.

If you're watching on DVD, Joss' commentary is really great.

I think this might be one of the best examples of dream logic I've seen. The rapidly shifting colors and tones, the confusing conversations, the lack of continuity-- all great.

For instance, when Buffy is confusedly trying to explain to her mother why she shouldn't be living in the wall. I have conversations like that in dreams all the time.

[Mara]

By the way, Season 5 is often regarded as the best season. (It's my favorite.) I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it.

[Dead & Messed Up]

If you're watching on DVD, Joss' commentary is really great.

I think this might be one of the best examples of dream logic I've seen. The rapidly shifting colors and tones, the confusing conversations, the lack of continuity-- all great.

For instance, when Buffy is confusedly trying to explain to her mother why she shouldn't be living in the wall. I have conversations like that in dreams all the time.

Oh, it was amazing, especially the smooth ways Joss transferred people from one location to the other. Xander walking through the ice cream truck, climbing up and into the crawlspace, and ending up in his basement in one smooth tracking shot was a favorite. That kind of thing always weirds me out when I wake up, because, like you say, it doesn't phase us at all. There's something so bizarre and wonderful about how dreams change both our perception of the external world and our internal thought processes.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Whoa. "Seeing Red."



Whoa.

[Mara]

:sad:

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah.

[Mara]

THAT'S why you don't want to have huge gaps in the last four episodes. You're in a free fall now.

[Kurosawa Fan]

THAT'S why you don't want to have huge gaps in the last four episodes. You're in a free fall now.

I'm hoping to finish the season today. If not, no later than tomorrow.

[Mara]

Can't wait to see how far Willow falls.

...

[Kurosawa Fan]

...

Yeah.

I know I just keep repeating that, but I'm kind of at a loss for words right now.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Holy shit. There is no coming back from that. She is gone. Oh, wow.

[Mara]

Holy shit. There is no coming back from that. She is gone. Oh, wow.

I didn't want to say it, but I suspected that your exact response would be "holy shit." It was mine.

Possibly, possibly, the most brutal death in all Buffydom.

Also, the scene with the books at the Magic Shop has some of the creepiest imagery in the entire series.

[Raiders]

I assume we're referring to:

Warren?

Yeah, I remember sitting in shock/horror for about 10 minutes after that.

[Mara]

I assume we're referring to:

Warren?

Yeah, I remember sitting in shock/horror for about 10 minutes after that.

Exactly. I really didn't think they'd take it that far.

[Kurosawa Fan]

FUCK YEAH!!!!!

I knew they couldn't end this season without him coming back. I love that man more than it's probably healthy for me to admit.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Brilliant season. Probably my favorite. I can't wait to see what season seven brings, but unfortunately that will probably have to wait until summer. School is poised to get crazy again.

[Mara]

Brilliant season. Probably my favorite. I can't wait to see what season seven brings, but unfortunately that will probably have to wait until summer. School is poised to get crazy again.

I'm so glad you liked it. I go back and forth on the ending of season 6.

Sometimes it feels like bang, BANG, BANG, whimper. But then other times I feel like since we've spent this whole season confronting inner monsters, it makes sense that the final showdown will be a psychological one.

If someone had told me after season 5 that the Big Bad of season 6 was Willow, I would have laughed. It's a testament to the writing on the show that they pretty much pulled it off believably. Poor Willow.

[Qrazy]

Brilliant season. Probably my favorite. I can't wait to see what season seven brings, but unfortunately that will probably have to wait until summer. School is poised to get crazy again.

It brings shittiness. Glad you liked season 6 though, it is real real good.

[Mara]

It brings shittiness. Glad you liked season 6 though, it is real real good.

Yeah, Qrazy really hated season 7.

I don't hate it. It has some uneven moments, but I like the overall story arc and there are some individual episodes that are fantastic. I'd put it at about the level of season 4, if not slightly above.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Okay, I'm about to freak out, because I don't know why this character is in Buffy, and why no one is acknowledging that this character is new. Given that I'm at the beginning of Season Five, some of you should know who I'm talking about, so...am I going to get an explanation?

I don't want the explanation. Just confirmation that there will be an explanation.

[Mara]

I don't want the explanation. Just confirmation that there will be an explanation.

Frustrating, isn't it? Patience.

[Mara]

Honestly, I don't know how people who actually watched the show on television dealt with the Dawn riddle for so many weeks. I was racing through the DVDs and I was still pulling my hair out.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The key to that character will be revealed, Damu.

[Mara]

Here's a thread for you.

In season 3, "Graduation Day", after Faith is in her coma, Buffy has a dream that they are in Faith's apartment talking.


BUFFY: There's something I'm supposed to be doing.

FAITH: Oh yeah. Miles to go. Little Ms. Muffet counting down from 7-3-0.

BUFFY: Great. Riddles.

If you take 730 as a number of days, that's a couple weeks over two years. What happens in two years? Well... the season finale of season 5.

Fast forward to season 4, "This Year's Girl", where coma Faith has a dream about her and Buffy.

They are in Buffy's house and they make a bed together.


BUFFY: I wish I could stay, but-

FAITH: You have to go.

BUFFY: It's just, with…

FAITH: Little sis coming. I know.

Fast forward the season finale of season 4, which is all dream sequences, but specifically the part with Tara and Buffy in Buffy's room. Buffy is looking at her bed, which is a mess.


BUFFY: Faith and I just made that bed…

TARA: For who?

BUFFY: I thought you were here to tell me.

Later, she glances at the clock, which reads 7:30.


BUFFY: It's so late…

TARA: Oh, that clock's completely wrong.

And, finally...


BUFFY: I gotta find the others.

TARA: Be back before dawn…

Not one to skimp on the foreshadowing, are we, Joss?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Yeah, I've caught most of those. It's all very subtle. Just...

ARGH.

Stop breaking the rules, Joss Whedon.

:lol:

[Mara]

Have you gotten to "The Replacement" yet? I think it's really fun.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Have you gotten to "The Replacement" yet? I think it's really fun.

Tonight, Gods willing. I'm also moving into Season Two of Angel.

[Mara]

Tonight, Gods willing. I'm also moving into Season Two of Angel.

Pay attention to Buffy's clothes. We have an informal but deathly serious consensus that she wears her ugliest outfit EVER.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Pay attention to Buffy's clothes. We have an informal but deathly serious consensus that she wears her ugliest outfit EVER.

Hrm. I'll be on the lookout. I did think her flirtation with permed hair in Season Four was embarrassing.

[Mara]

Hrm. I'll be on the lookout. I did think her flirtation with permed hair in Season Four was embarrassing.

Season three. Bleached bangs.

Never forget.

[Lucky]

If you take 730 as a number of days, that's a couple weeks over two years.


How many days are there in a year in Mara's world?

[Mara]

How many days are there in a year in Mara's world?

Dammit, you should know better than to let me do math!

Honestly, I thought it was 356, not 365. I'm not dyslexic, but I have a problem with transposing numbers. You should see me try to make a phone call.

[Lucky]

I actually kind of liked Buffy's crimp/perm hair. Bleached bangs in S3 were not so good. Buffy's S6 short do coupled with her skeletal physique was the worst though. S5 Buffy is my favorite. Great hair, kickin' body, and Buffy was especially tan that year.

[Mara]

Interesting article (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/feature/138257-wesley-wyndam-pryce-joss-whedons-true-tragic-hero/P0) argues that Whedon's greatest single character was... Wesley.

I mean, I love Wesley. But really? Spoilers through Buffy S3 and Angel S5.


Former watcher, rouge demon hunter, loyal ally to the good fight, and morally mellifluous hero, he is the most intensely actualized character in all of the Whedonverse, and one of the few characters whose journey is most fully explored within the confines of the series. Whedon and his team of writers, such as Tim Minear and Steven S. DeKnight, write Wesley as the Biblical Job of the Whedonverse, repeatedly pushed to the brink of darkness, only to rally time and time again behind the forces of good. Wesley, portrayed brilliantly by Alexis Denisof, undergoes the greatest transformation of any character Whedon has written, facing challenges that mirror the enduring and conquering spirit of humanity, and in doing so becomes perhaps the best developed character of not only Whedon’s work but also television as a whole.

[Lucky]

I may be biased because I haven't seen the entirety of angel s3-5 but I can think of eight characters in the Buffyverse that have more complex and interesting arcs than Wesley. And "television as a whole" makes me uncontrollably roll my eyes.

[Mara]

He changes significantly in seasons 4 and 5, and becomes a very complex and interesting character. Still, having him as a favorite is a bit of a stretch.

Unless we're talking about "favorite guy to see get mussed up and a bit stubbly" because you could make that argument. Easily.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/wesleywyndampryce.jpg

[ledfloyd]

i can see the argument for him as a favorite.

[Mara]

i can see the argument for him as a favorite.

He'd probably make my top ten.

Oh, crap, I'm going to make a top ten, aren't I?

[Mara]

Hmm. Counting the Buffyverse as one:

1. Giles
2. Willow
3. Xander
4. Fred
5. Anya
6. Spike
7. Buffy
8. Wesley
9. Faith
10. Lorne

I might wiggle the places around, but that looks about right.

[Lucky]

I'll play too...

1. Buffy
2. Giles
3. Spike
4. Anya
5. Xander
6. Faith
7. Angel
8. Cordelia
9. Joyce
10. Tara

[Lucky]

Yeah, Qrazy really hated season 7.

I don't hate it. It has some uneven moments, but I like the overall story arc and there are some individual episodes that are fantastic. I'd put it at about the level of season 4, if not slightly above.

I think this is a very fair assessment. It might be the only season where I liked the first half more than the second. The grand scope and setup raised the bar very high but then the show kind of drowned (with the exception of the finale which I was mostly happy with). My biggest complaint with Season 7 would be too many new characters taking away time from those we've grown to love for years. It didn't make sense, especially with the show making an obvious effort to return to its roots.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Five episodes into Season Five. Gonna tear into it this weekend, hopefully. Nice to see the development with Dawn. Makes a bit more sense. That blonde chick is angry.

[Dead & Messed Up]

"The Body."

[ledfloyd]

"The Body."

*tear*

[Mara]

Gets me so, so badly.

In my opinion, the single best episode in the whole show.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Gets me so, so badly.

In my opinion, the single best episode in the whole show.

Anya.

[Kurosawa Fan]

"The Body" is one of the best episodes of any television show I've ever seen.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I don't understand how this all happens. How we go through this. I mean, I knew her, and then she's- There's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. And-and Xander's crying and not talking, and-and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs, or yawn or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why.

[Mara]

I don't understand how this all happens. How we go through this. I mean, I knew her, and then she's- There's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. And-and Xander's crying and not talking, and-and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs, or yawn or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why.

That's a well-written speech, but Caulfield's acting knocked it out of the park.

The whole episode is just gut-wrenching.

[Dead & Messed Up]

That's a well-written speech, but Caulfield's acting knocked it out of the park.

The whole episode is just gut-wrenching.

Indeed. Amazing work.

I couldn't stop after watching "The Body" last night, so I'm finishing up "The Gift" right now. Incidentally, I'm right before

Buffy takes Dawn's place

and Netflix stopped working. Way to ruin the moment, internet.

[Mara]

Wow, that really sucks. The building climax of "The Gift" is so well-done, I can't imagine it being cut off. You should back up to the beginning of the scene.

[Mara]

In fact, just listening to this chokes me up a little:

C0a9b2ucnrU

[Dead & Messed Up]

Wow, that really sucks. The building climax of "The Gift" is so well-done, I can't imagine it being cut off. You should back up to the beginning of the scene.

It's all good.

"She saved the world.

A lot."

:lol:

:sad:

[Dead & Messed Up]

And, while we're here, I posted my thoughts for Season Four on the bloggerino:


I don't understand how the writers flubbed Frankenstein. After Shelley's classic novel, and Whale's two superior adaptations, and the Hammer pictures, and countless other films that focus on the multidimensional monster, one would think Whedon and his band of writers could handle the character. Their iteration - a demon-man-robot (demanbot?) inevitably named Adam - cuts an imposing figure, with his muscular body and stitched green skin and cybernetic augmentations (a floppy disk port sits above his left nipple). He even nods to Karloff, but instead of tossing a young girl in a river, he dissects a young boy to see how he works.

How depressing it then becomes to watch him lose that (perverse) human curiosity and become so singularly robotic. Apart from the occasional musing on humans or vampires, Adam proceeds like a cog in a wheel, executing his plans because those plans are what he must execute. Said plans involve the creation of an army full of recombined soldiers like himself, although he never specifies an ultimate goal for this new race. Adam's incomplete process remind me of the underpants gnomes from South Park who can't quite nail the middle step between collecting underpants and making money.

He involves Buffy in his master plan as a means of upping the number of casualties in the human/demon war (thereby producing more parts for Adam's new army), but he carries no interest in her as a potential super-soldier herself. Adam's focus is so narrow (and incomplete) that he doesn't realize that Slayer-parts would make for a demanbot (dewobot?) to equal him, and, heck, if nothing else, he could up the homage ante by desiring her as a life mate. Instead, Buffy's busy mating with stalwart lunkhead Riley Finn (Marc Blucas), a well-meaning soldier from Iowa who works for the same military project that created Adam.

Riley serves as a useful metaphor for the entirety of Season Four, which is handsome, good-hearted, and strikingly one-dimensional. I submit the following. Riley's romance with Buffy rests mainly on nice guy safety and loads of sex. The main villain lacks the driving emotion of former villains like the Mayor and Angelus. The threats of college quickly fade to the background, becoming High School: Part Two. Sure, some new developments on the side (a surprising romance for Willow, a surprising romance for Xander) keep individual episodes humming, and the banter frothy as ever, but the overall spirit of the show feels muted.

That muted feeling forces Buffy to live or die, for the first time since Season One, on an episode-by-episode basis. Thankfully, some of the episodes here offer the show at its boldest and most exciting. "Hush" features voice-stealing demons (led by Guillermo Del Toro veteran Doug Jones) who force the entire cast mime their way through most of the episode. "Restless" allows Joss Whedon to discard the seasonal narrative in favor of expertly-wrought dream logic, as Buffy and her friends share dreams and nightmares. "Superstar" suggests the bizarre idea that Sunnydale itself can be spell-cast, so a new character can suddenly become someone who was "always there." The two-part "This Year's Girl / Who Are You" witnesses the welcome return of a former foe, and "Fear Itself" is a delightful haunted house caper.

The mix of episodes also includes the depressingly blunt "Beer Bad" and the unformed mess of "Where the Wild Things Are," which twists to include Catholic sexual repression, theater-sized bedrooms, and orgasm walls, which are exactly what they sound like. Few of the other episodes lack the unique badness of those two, although "Pangs" forces another plight-of-the-Indians episode upon the universe, and "Doomed" sees the gang return to the high school for yet another round of Hellmouth closing. I guess that plot's supposed to emphasize the distance between the Gang and their origins, but it simply made me nostalgic.

Conceptually, the Initiative is a brilliant addition to the world of Buffy. Think of how authors like Shelley, Stoker, Lovecraft and Matheson offered supernatural beings compatible with the scientific method. Hell, the ghost busters fought a Sumerian deity with nuclear stun-guns. But Whedon and the gang never come at their concept from a fresh angle. They offer the tropes of science but never the questions or the hangups. Instead, we get nebulous aggression and bureaucracy, which offers plenty of plot but little heart. I mean, just look at this place.

[picture of Initiative]

Ignore the cool science stuff and study all the empty space. There's room for so much more.

[Mara]

Completely agree on the overall story arc of season 4. What a mess. It's all feast or famine.

[ledfloyd]

i really love season 4, despite adam. i feel like season 3 kind of perfected the high school stuff and sending them to college opens up the universe in a unique way. it also features many of my favorite episodes, the aforementioned restless, hush, superstar and this year's girl/who are you two parter. but also something blue and a new man.

i also like the initiative and have no real problems with riley. there's also willow/tara, xander/anya and then of course spike(/harmony haha). the overall arc might be flawed (because of adam) but if i'm going to settle down for a single episode of buffy i seem to reach for season 4 more often than not. the college setting just really works for me. and the show.

[Mara]

Yeah, I don't mean that it's bad overall. It's not. I just think that it has the weakest meta-story (except for, perhaps, season one.) I find Riley irritating, and the whole thing with the Initiative and Adam just felt like a failed experiment. Pardon the pun.

[Dead & Messed Up]

"Once More With Feeling" was damn fun. Really dug the Anya/Xander musical number, and how Michelle Trachtenberg turned her lack of a voice into an advantage with a graceful little ballet interlude. Also loved how...

...as in "Hush," Whedon uses a high concept "one-off" idea to bring huge arc developments to the forefront, like Giles's frustration and Buffy's secret about the afterlife (the look on Willow's face after that revelation more than justified the cheesier moments).

[Mara]

"Once More With Feeling" was damn fun. Really dug the Anya/Xander musical number, and how Michelle Trachtenberg turned her lack of a voice into an advantage with a graceful little ballet interlude. Also loved how...

...as in "Hush," Whedon uses a high concept "one-off" idea to bring huge arc developments to the forefront, like Giles's frustration and Buffy's secret about the afterlife (the look on Willow's face after that revelation more than justified the cheesier moments).

One of my all-time favorite episodes, but we know I love an all-singing, all-dancing extravaganza!

I have all the music on my iPod.

[Mara]

The next episode is also one of my favorites. Very funny.

[ledfloyd]

why not just call me desperate for a shag giles?

[Dead & Messed Up]

I forgot about doing a character list. This is as of S3:E19 of Angel and S6:E17 of Buffy.

01. Willow
02. Giles
03. Cordelia
04. Anya
05. Wesley
06. Buffy
07. Faith
08. Lorne
09. Spike
10. Angel

One of my beefs with Angel is that his character seems to be whatever the writers want it to be, and what they want doesn't always tie in with subtle-but-continual growth. He's all over the place (especially in his own series). Conversely, I love how Cordelia shows signs of improvement throughout Buffy before flowering in Angel as an empathetic best-possible-version of her Sunnydale self. Similarly, Willow's progression is about as perfect as a series could hope for.

And I love Lorne.

[Mara]

S6:E17 of Buffy.

Uh oh. Don't worry, we'll be here when you need us.


One of my beefs with Angel is that his character seems to be whatever the writers want it to be, and what they want doesn't always tie in with subtle-but-continual growth.

He's more interesting on his own series, but he never becomes a favorite with me. He's just the person around whom others act.


Conversely, I love how Cordelia shows signs of improvement throughout Buffy before flowering in Angel as an empathetic best-possible-version of her Sunnydale self.

Cordelia on Angel grows up and develops so much, she's nearly unrecognizeable, but it's never unbelievable. She falls below Fred, Lorne and Wesley in my love for the show, but I still like her a lot.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Uh oh. Don't worry, we'll be here when you need us.

:lol:

Joss Whedon: If My Viewers Are Happy, I'm Not Doing My Job.

[Winston*]

At least Angel's better than Gun. Gun is the worst character on any show ever.

[Dead & Messed Up]

At least Angel's better than Gun. Gun is the worst character on any show ever.

But he's black! Just look at how black he is!

[Mara]

Gunn's not that bad. He's pretty anonymous most of the time, and he certainly isn't very well developed. But I actually find his storyline in Season 5 really interesting. And he got one of the biggest laughs from me in Angel history. Hint: it involved "Three Little Maids From School."

uUkVEt3XGfQ

[Mara]

I dislike Riley much more than Gunn.

(The similarity being that they're both just kind of... there.)

[Irish]

Gunn isn't a great character, but at least he has a little bit of an arc.

I always liked how Whedon tried to keep him relevant to the show, going from street thug to love interest to corporate lawyer over the span of five years (as opposed to someone like Xander, who walked around with COMIC RELIEF stamped on his forehead for 100 or so episodes).

[Mara]

Hey-- I totally love Xander. Unabashedly.

[Winston*]

Is the only compelling character in the Buffyverse that's not white Lorne?

[Mara]

Is the only compelling character in the Buffyverse that's not white Lorne?

...yes. And they actually make a big deal out of his race, like, "We're not prejudiced against green people."

No, but the rest of your non-white characters are pretty lame.

[Irish]

Sure, he's a fun character. But he's also the only one who doesn't change at all -- either internally or externally -- over the course of either show.

Comic relief is all well and good, but at the end of the day .. you sometimes wonder just what he's doing in some of those scenes, especially towards the end of Buffy's run.

[Mara]

And now I'm sad all over again that the actor who played Lorne died so senselessly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hallett

[Mara]

Sure, he's a fun character. But he's also the only one who doesn't change at all -- either internally or externally -- over the course of either show.

Comic relief is all well and good, but at the end of the day .. you sometimes wonder just what he's doing in some of those scenes, especially towards the end of Buffy's run.

I don't think that's at all accurate, but I will write my defense tomorrow when I'm well-rested.

[Irish]

Well, you got me there, Winston. :lol:

[Dead & Messed Up]

And now I'm sad all over again that the actor who played Lorne died so senselessly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hallett

:sad:

I had no idea. I just remember thinking, at some point in Season Two, what a trooper that actor had to be, given how his looks were obscured by the makeup, and how long that process must take, and how, despite that, Lorne just radiates. He's so goddamn warm and funny and incisive. I mean, he's a bit character, functioning mostly as an exposition fountain, but there's so much personality to him.

Damn it. And he was only 33?!

[Dead & Messed Up]

Uh oh. Don't worry, we'll be here when you need us.

Mara, where are you?!

:sad:

The Tara development was spoiled for me. Still heartbreaking. I see that Whedon decided to calibrate the death for maximum awfulness.

Whoa, and now Willow just got in a shouting match with Osiris.

And won.

Even when I hate this show, I love this show.

[Mara]

Actually, you may want to spoiler that, Winston*. A couple people here are about to start Season 7.

[Mara]

:sad:

I had no idea. I just remember thinking, at some point in Season Two, what a trooper that actor had to be, given how his looks were obscured by the makeup, and how long that process must take, and how, despite that, Lorne just radiates. He's so goddamn warm and funny and incisive. I mean, he's a bit character, functioning mostly as an exposition fountain, but there's so much personality to him.

Damn it. And he was only 33?!

It's really, really sad. And something that seems like it could have been prevented and treated without killing him. Poor guy.

[Mara]

Mara, where are you?!

:sad:

The Tara development was spoiled for me. Still heartbreaking. I see that Whedon decided to calibrate the death for maximum awfulness.

Whoa, and now Willow just got in a shouting match with Osiris.

And won.

Even when I hate this show, I love this show.

Season 6 is bleak in general, but has (I think) one of the most grim, heartbreaking final arcs.

Some fans have a lot of vitriol towards seasons 6 and 7, but I don't. I'm glad that the show grew up and became less black-and-white. Even so, I'm glad that season 7 isn't as depressing, and that they lighten up a little bit.

[Mara]

By the way, KF, if you're lurking... ignore Qrazy. Season 7 is really worth watching.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Oh, I'm lurking, and I'll be watching season 7 after my spring semester.

[Mara]

So, XANDER. I want to argue both that he is a dynamic and changeable character, and also that his character is vital to the overall themes of the show, and also that he is important, from a craft perspective, to the writing of the series.

The last is the easiest to prove. Xander is our everyman, which has a rich tradition in literature. As an audience we are without supernatural powers, extraordinary intelligence, or heroic bravery. We like watching our heroes because they are not like us. However, the everyman is the keyhole through which we can see that world. He is the person with whom we can identify when everyone else is calling down thunder and lightning.

Xander is the audience. He loves the characters on the show-- so do we. He wants to help, but often feels helpless-- so do we. He struggles through life without extraordinary abilities, just like us. He is what tethers us to their world.

Secondly, Xander does change significantly throughout the course of the show, but about as much as you would expect a boy of 15 to change when he becomes a man of 22. He begins as sexually insecure, and ends as emotionally confident. He begins as someone who both idealizes and fears other people, and ends as someone who accepts and loves others while acknowledging their faults and failings. He begins as someone who distrusts authority and ends as a leader.

Most significantly, of course, he begins as someone who has no idea what his place is in the world. He is the only main character who is bad at school, and has no real plans for the future. He doesn't go to college, and he has no solid plan for moving on with his life. He has no support at home, and no social structure outside of his tight-knit group of friends. What does he want to do? He wants to help.

The resolving of those issues is both financial and emotional. Luckily, he finds that he has a knack for putting broken things back together, both literally and figuratively. He can build things. When Buffy's house gets destroyed (and destroyed and destroyed and destroyed) he is the one who gets out his tools and makes everything strong again. When his friends fight and scream and grieve, he is the one who can step in and heal them and hold them. He is the emotional center and bedrock of the group.

Lastly, Xander holds a unique place as a foil for the main action in the show. BtVS is about an extraordinary girl trying to live in an ordinary world. Xander, on the other hand, is an ordinary boy trying to live in an extraordinary world. He stumbled, by happenstance, into a world where he is ill-equipped to live, and he lives there anyway. When most people would have run away screaming, he stays even though he is the most vulnerable and least capable person to deal with danger. And by staying, he becomes incredibly strong. He runs into fights when he has no supernatural abilities, and he fights anyway. He does it for love and for loyalty and for pride.

In "The Zeppo," possibly my favorite Xander-centric episode, he coolly stares down an undead bully and waits to die. "I like the quiet," he says. That, my friends, is a badass.

I think Xander's place in the show is best summed up by one of my favorites of his quotes, where he commiserates with Dawn about their mutual lack of superpowers:


Xander: They'll never know how tough it is, Dawnie, to be the one who isn't chosen. To live so near to the spotlight and never step in it. But I know. I see more than anybody realizes because nobody's watching me. I saw you last night. I see you working here today. You're not special. You're extraordinary.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Just finished the end of Season Six, and I can vouch for Mara defending Xander.

I figured his intervention was coming after we learned Willow was invulnerable to magic, but that did not keep me from moisting up when pitiful, lovable, completely powerless Xander stood between Willow and the apocalypse. This is the kind of stirring moment that both requires and makes good on six seasons of deep friendship.

"So if you're going to kill the world, start with me."
"You think I won't?"
"It doesn't matter. I'll still love you."

[Mara]

Just finished the end of Season Six, and I can vouch for Mara defending Xander.

I figured his intervention was coming after we learned Willow was invulnerable to magic, but that did not keep me from moisting up when pitiful, lovable, completely powerless Xander stood between Willow and the apocalypse. This is the kind of stirring moment that both requires and makes good on six seasons of deep friendship.

"So if you're going to kill the world, start with me."
"You think I won't?"
"It doesn't matter. I'll still love you."

Dang it, you just got me all misty at work.

[Qrazy]

Sure, he's a fun character. But he's also the only one who doesn't change at all -- either internally or externally -- over the course of either show.

Comic relief is all well and good, but at the end of the day .. you sometimes wonder just what he's doing in some of those scenes, especially towards the end of Buffy's run.

Xander changed a lot man.

He was always comedic but season one Xander to sideplot owning his own car/saving the school Xander to Xander and Anya to post Xander and Anya Xander to carpenter Xander... all show the evolution of his character. He evolved more in season 7 too with that missing eye thing but that season sucked so who cares.

[Mara]

Ah, Qrazy. We enjoy you. I agree, except (again) I like Season 7.

[Lucky]

I think I just realized I'm in the minority when I say 7 > 6. I know KF is going to be on your guys' side, too, so that's another strike against me.

I find the stride of eps in the first half of Season 7 right up there with the best of the show. It's the second half that I feel loses a bit of focus and doesn't quite payoff the fantastic setup they built.

Same Time Same Place, Help, Selfless, Him, Conversations with Dead People, and Showtime all stand out to me and are in the first twelve eps.

[Mara]

I think I just realized I'm in the minority when I say 7 > 6.

I go back and forth on this. They both have strengths and weaknesses.

[Irish]

So, XANDER. I want to argue both that he is a dynamic and changeable character, and also that his character is vital to the overall themes of the show, and also that he is important, from a craft perspective, to the writing of the series.

**** SPOILER WARNING: BUFFY/ ANGEL ****

I think you missed the jist of what I was saying.

When I say Xander has no arc, I mean that the character has no internal or external transformation. He remains the same goofy, lovable, loyal guy that he is in season 1 until the end of season 7. The dialogue you and others quoted would fit just as comfortably in the second season as they would the fourth. This is because his character, while being something of a moral barometer at times, is fairly static. He may gain depth and shading (as do most characters over time), but he doesn't change. That's not true of anyone else save maybe Giles.

Let's compare him to Willow. This is someone who starts out as a fairly introverted geek, grows to discover she likes girls, and ends up as a witch who is as powerful if not more powerful than Buffy.

Along the way, she also becomes something of addict and commits murder to avenge her lover. The Willow who skins a man alive in season 6 is far removed from the shy, gawky computer nerd of season 1. They are not the same person, being hardened by the experience of the the last 5 or so years.

If you look at the minor characters, you'll see the same sort of thing. The Cordelia who gets taken up into the heavens in some weird Mary-Son-of-God moment on Angel is very different from the callow, vain princess of Sunnydale High.

Or, my god, take Wesley. There's a character who has one of the best arcs ever written for television. This is a grown man who could barely kiss when we first encounter him -- and he goes from that to a guy who kidnaps his enemies, keeps them in his closet, and makes deadpan jokes about them peeing in a bucket, all in the name of rescuing his friends.

But when he first turns up on Angel, he fakes his own image: Riding into LA on a motorcycle he can barely control and wearing biker leathers and pretending to be a tough guy. Flash forward five years and he's deadlier and more resolved -- and arguably has experienced more personal loss -- than anyone around him. He's become absolutely ruthless. Wesley goes from foppish sap to a man who would make Jake Bauer cross the street to avoid him. That's a character arc.

Whedon has a habit of introducing interesting, fun characters to fill in that week's story (Winifred, Dawn, Anya) or just for fun (Lorne) and then trying to figure out what to do with them later. It's a bad habit. He's worked himself into a corner on every show he's produced (In Firefly, for instance, Book, Inara, and Zoe come dangerously close to being Zeppos of their own. On Angel, it was Fred and Gunn, mostly, although the writers took pains to make sure they weren't Zeppo'd out of existence).

For most of these characters, though, there's no way back. They've crossed so many lines -- with each other, themselves, and the world -- that they're irrevocably changed at the end of the show's run. Xander sticks out, because unlike every other character .. he's always just Xander, as you yourself said "just sort of ... there."

It wouldn't be a problem -- on most shows, even long running ones, it isn't -- if none of the characters had significant arcs. (Jean Luc Picard and Hawkeye Pierce gain depth and shading over the years, but they don't really fundamentally change either.)

The difference with Whedon's stuff is that he makes a point of big character arcs on his shows. But not, unfortunately, for Xander. (Which is why, even though I haven't counted, I would guess he's got fewer scripts dedicated to him than any other major character in the Buffyverse).

[Mara]

I would agree that a number of characters in the Buffyverse had more dramatic arcs than Xander, but I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't change at all. I find Season 4 Xander markedly different from Season 1 and Season 7 Xander.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Anyone see that Giles will be on a new show on NBC this fall called Free Agents? The quick preview video on NBC doesn't look all that funny, but I'll still probably tune in just for him.

[Mara]

Anyone see that Giles will be on a new show on NBC this fall called Free Agents? The quick preview video on NBC doesn't look all that funny, but I'll still probably tune in just for him.

Hmm, looks like an American remake of a British show... also starring Head.

ASH, whom I love, has been regularly working on British television, for better or for worse. I've tried to watch a few of the shows, and they vary in quality.

Manchild was, simply, one of the most awful things I've ever seen on television. It was so unwatchably bad that I actually watched several episodes just to see if it could get worse.

He was quite funny on Little Britain. Merlin was silly, but not exactly bad. It didn't keep my interest.

Honestly, my favorite thing Head has done other than BtVS was Repo! The Genetic Opera. And his guest role in Doctor Who was great.

[Mara]

I tracked down the British original of "Free Agents" and made it five minutes before shutting it off.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I tracked down the British original of "Free Agents" and made it five minutes before shutting it off.

:sad:

Maybe the American version will be better?






:sad:

[Mara]

:sad:

Maybe the American version will be better?






:sad:

It's doubtful that I will have to hear my sweet Giles say dirty words. So, possibly.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Through "Conversations With Dead People."

It's almost over.

:|

Great episode. I'm going to try and ignore popular opinion on Season Seven, because this first third has been plenty satisfying.

[Mara]

Great episode. I'm going to try and ignore popular opinion on Season Seven, because this first third has been plenty satisfying.

I think (as I think I've said before) that season 7 is underrated. It has some problematic elements, but I find the overall structure compelling and exciting. I like "Him" as a breather episode-- is that a flash back to a season 3 mentality or what?-- and then "Conversations with Dead People" is one of my favorites.

[ledfloyd]

conversations with dead people is the last great episode of buffy.

[Mara]

conversations with dead people is the last great episode of buffy.

No, the last great episode of Buffy is the last episode of Buffy. I adore the finale.

I also have a real soft spot for "Storyteller."

[ledfloyd]

No, the last great episode of Buffy is the last episode of Buffy. I adore the finale.

I also have a real soft spot for "Storyteller."
i like storyteller quite a bit as well. chosen? nah.

[Mara]

yqiiP6NJkh4

[Qrazy]

Remember when Buffy was jumping on roofs and then onto the bus? God that was horrific.

[Lucky]

Remember when Buffy was jumping on roofs and then onto the bus? God that was horrific.

At least she didn't die again. That would have ruined it for me.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Okay, I'm through episode 10 now, where Buffy makes her badass war speech to the Scoobies, and I'm thinking that they need to

spring Faith out of jail to bolster their strength.

I have no idea if that will happen or not, but I think it should, dammit, because that would be what I would do. They clearly need all the help they can get, and that'd be a huge ace up the sleeve. I'm not holding out for

Angel, since he's concurrently fighting an apocalypse in LA, and his appearance would needlessly complicate the Spike factor.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I also have a real soft spot for "Storyteller."

Just watched this. Loved it. The high school stuff's a little half-baked, but the Andrew story is just about perfect.

[Mara]

Just watched this. Loved it. The high school stuff's a little half-baked, but the Andrew story is just about perfect.

Excellent. I actually just rewatched it a couple weeks ago and it continues to be both amusing and surprisingly wrenching. I can relate to Andrew. There was a period in my teens when I was a more toned-down version of that sort of "storyteller."

I'm interested in your opinions on the next episode. I have decidedly mixed feelings.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Excellent. I actually just rewatched it a couple weeks ago and it continues to be both amusing and surprisingly wrenching. I can relate to Andrew. There was a period in my teens when I was a more toned-down version of that sort of "storyteller."

I'm interested in your opinions on the next episode. I have decidedly mixed feelings.

Okay, on "Lies My Parents Told Me:"

This episode underlines a broader problem I have with the series (both this one and Angel), which is that the line's never truly clear on whether or not a vampire is also who they were (is Angel inside Angelus? are they distinct? why can Demon Spike mercy-kill his mother out of shame and regret?). I think this could've been a great opportunity to clarify that and bury the hatchet in all these he-is-a-vampire/he-has-a-soul arguments that, frankly, have become wearying and never get convincingly resolved. I'll probably elaborate on this whole thing when I'm done watching the show.

On its own, I think that the episode nicely colors Woods and paints him as a man who can't see past his own pain, because he's turned that pain into a perverse, Bruce Wayne type of lifeline. The mommy issues with Spike enter and exit a little abruptly. They seem less a convincing story and more a catalyst to end his "trigger" phase. I'm assuming that Giles behaves the way he does because the Watcher society is gone and the threat is so big, but his behavior still feels alien and bizarre to me. His lectures and frustrations feel simultaneously too sharp and impotent. Giles stalks around like a king without a kingdom. I like the episode, and I think it clears the table for the final run of episodes, but I also think you're right to have mixed feelings about it.

[Mara]

Pretty much agreed.

I think that what they want, as writers, to do is to create more empathy for Spike by making him pitiable. But I don't find sad-sack Spike interesting, I find him obnoxious. I really pretty much dislike all his flashbacks to his humanity.

I do however, have a theory that Spike is fundamentally wrong, somehow, as a vampire. He should have turned hardest against those who kept him the most human. His mother should have been his first kill. Numerous plotlines on Buffy and Angel confirm this.

Instead, he is still very much in thrall to her, then when she breaks his heart, to Dru... then, when she breaks his heart, to Buffy. More so than any other vampire without a soul, he is deeply driven by love. The Judge way back in season 2 intimated that there was something overly, wrongly human about Spike.

I like Wood's storyline though. And his green tank top. Yeah, I'm shallow.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Done. That finale should've been a 90 minute special. You can tell things were simply too compressed.

[Mara]

Done. That finale should've been a 90 minute special. You can tell things were simply too compressed.

Well done! I'm in the minority of really liking the finale. A bit rushed? Yes, probably, but I find the whole thing pretty exhilarating.

[Fezzik]

I just started watching this on Netflix streaming.

I'm through 9 episodes so far, and I have to ask..

...does it get better? It's not bad at all, but based on what I've seen so far, I don't understand the overwhelmingly explosive geek love that's been showered on the show.

I recognize Joss's writing style, and thats all well and good, but I've noticed a tendency for the quadrangle (Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles) to figure out exactly whats going on with 10 - 15 minutes left in the show and then fight it for like 5.

I dunno, it just doesnt resonate yet.

Also, does Cordelia serve a purpose at all? I cant stand her. At all. And I don't mean in the way of "her character's a bitch" I mean in the "she's pointless and adds nothing to the show" way.

I want to stick with it, but Im not sure I like it enough to watch 7 seasons or so of shows.

[Mara]

The first season is notoriously pretty bad. You just have to suffer through it in order to have the backstory for the rest. The show really picks up a few episodes into season 2, when the show decides what it wants to be and becomes comfortable.

So, no, you're not crazy. I'm a mega-fan and I find most of season one to be somewhere between mediocre and cringe-worthy. The finale of season 1 has some good stuff, though.

Feel free to come in here and discuss every single episode. We love that.

[ledfloyd]

in my opinion it doesn't become great until the second half of season 2. so, at least try to stick with it through season 2.

edit: to be more specific, the surprise/innocence two parter is when buffy becomes buffy. but there are hints before that. particularly halloween and what's my line, but also lie to me to an extent. the first half also features many of the show's worst episodes, so watch out for that.

[Qrazy]

I just started watching this on Netflix streaming.

I'm through 9 episodes so far, and I have to ask..

...does it get better? It's not bad at all, but based on what I've seen so far, I don't understand the overwhelmingly explosive geek love that's been showered on the show.

I recognize Joss's writing style, and thats all well and good, but I've noticed a tendency for the quadrangle (Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles) to figure out exactly whats going on with 10 - 15 minutes left in the show and then fight it for like 5.

I dunno, it just doesnt resonate yet.

Also, does Cordelia serve a purpose at all? I cant stand her. At all. And I don't mean in the way of "her character's a bitch" I mean in the "she's pointless and adds nothing to the show" way.

I want to stick with it, but Im not sure I like it enough to watch 7 seasons or so of shows.

Yeah, it gets a LOT better. The show finally starts getting a budget it seems in season 2 and on. The overall style and quality of every aspect of the show improves. Season one is utter crap.

[Mara]

edit: to be more specific, the surprise/innocence two parter is when buffy becomes buffy.

There are improvements before that two-parter, but... yeah, that's when shit gets real.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I don't think the show is crap at all in its first season. It isn't steady, and it relies too much on Kolchaky silliness, but the actors buoy the material, and you can already see how the monsters function as reflections of teenage anxieties.

[Irish]

The first season is pretty junky "monster of the week" type stuff.

It gets better -- much better -- from season two onwards. I've found this is fairly typical of Whedon; it takes him about 10-14 episodes of anything to find his footing.

[Fezzik]

Phew. good to know, guys. Thanks.

I'm about to watch Episode 11 of Season 1, so I'm working through it :D

[Raiders]

I have also decided to casually re-watch the series. I expected to hate much of the first season, but I'll be damned if I didn't already love the second episode ("The Harvest"). Joss hadn't gotten too good at the dialogue yet, but the way he frames a lot of the shots make it feel like a cheeky early 90s high school film, but with death and vampires.

[Raiders]

Wow, the She-Mantis episode was bloody awful.

[Mara]

Wow, the She-Mantis episode was bloody awful.

One of the worst of the series, I think. Embarrassing for all.

[Raiders]

One of the worst of the series, I think. Embarrassing for all.

I couldn't believe how schlocky it was. Then, coupled with Angel's ridiculous appearances (they jokingly referenced his cryptic attitude, but then he lays it on again stone-faced) and Xander's remarkably awful dream sequences, the whole episode was lame. A vampire with Wolverine claws? Really? And if you don't think your creature effects are competent enough, then just have her switch back to human form, instead of wallowing and hulking in the shadows like a Z-grade 50s creature feature (which in a way the entire episode kind of embraces, but it doesn't really seem committed enough to make any of it work).