The Semantic Arguments Thread

[Qrazy]

Much like the Rating Scale Discussion Thread this is for arguments about term definition. Often in a debate/discussion there may be some disagreement about what any given term means... for instance, where one term ends and another begins. It's valuable to weigh the pros and cons of widening or narrowing a definition but it's also important to recognize when an argument is simply a result of a definitional disagreement. Words can also mean more than one thing. So next time a discussion reaches this territory, feel free to post your semantic arguments here rather than elsewhere.

Some semantic arguments include but are not limited to (please do not answer these questions):

What is art? What qualifies as art?
Genre disagreements.
Disagreements concerning terms frequently used in criticism.
Terms such as: pretentious, manipulative, etc.

[D_Davis]

Aliens: Action, Sci-Fi, or Horror film.

discuss.

[Qrazy]

Definitely Action and Sci-fi, maybe Horror. I found Alien to be more Horror than Aliens.

[Spinal]

I don't care what the original title translates to. The Bicycle Thief is a better title than Bicycle Thieves.

[Qrazy]

I don't care what the original title translates to. The Bicycle Thief is a better title than Bicycle Thieves.

Agreed.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Aliens: Action, Sci-Fi, or Horror film.

discuss.

40% Action, 40% Horror, 20% Sci-Fi.

[Pop Trash]

I don't care what the original title translates to. The Bicycle Thief is a better title than Bicycle Thieves.
Disagree. It doesn't take into account the plurality of theft in the film.

[Dukefrukem]

40% Action, 40% Horror, 20% Sci-Fi.

I would have said 33% across the board.

[Qrazy]

Disagree. It doesn't take into account the plurality of theft in the film.

1) That spoils a major plot point.
2) It just sounds better.
3) It being The Bicycle Thief does not preclude there being more than one. There's more than one The Godfather, the film is not entitled Godfathers... because that sucks.
4) He doesn't actually steal the bicycle, he attempts to steal it. It's an attempted theft.
5) The singular title generates interesting discussions because it is singular and there are two thefts... one successful, one not. The plural title just is and it colors no difference between the two different kinds of theft.

[Qrazy]

20% Sci-Fi.

That doesn't make any sense.

[Pop Trash]

4) He doesn't actually steal the bicycle, he attempts to steal it. It's an attempted theft.
5) The singular title generates interesting discussions because it is singular and there are two thefts... one successful, one not. The plural title just is and it colors no difference between the two different kinds of theft.

Not to be a butthole here, but just because he wasn't successful at stealing the bike doesn't mean he didn't steal it. If I walk out of a store with a candy bar in my pocket and I'm immediately busted by a security guard outside the door, I still stole the damn candy.

[Qrazy]

Not to be a butthole here, but just because he wasn't successful at stealing the bike doesn't mean he didn't steal it. If I walk out of a store with a candy bar in my pocket and I'm immediately busted by a security guard outside the door, I still stole the damn candy.

If you don't get out of the store though but you had the intent to steal you haven't stolen yet. Still he probably walked out of the metaphoric store so to speak but all the other points remain and it's still two different kinds of theft because their motives were different. That's why I put point five as a separate point.

[Eleven]

Alien - haunted house movie/slasher movie in space. Horror.
Aliens - war movie in space. Action.
Both sci-fi.

The Bicycle Thief > Bicycle Thieves, translation be damned.


Argument:
If you like something, say that it's good and argue from there. Don't try to separate "the greatest" and "my favorite," think that there's some sort of ideal aesthetic criteria that is kowtowed to but ultimately ignored ("I know Citizen Kane is a better movie, but I like Toxic Avenger more"). This will eliminate the guilt out of "guilty pleasure."

[Sycophant]

Argument:
If you like something, say that it's good and argue from there. Don't try to separate "the greatest" and "my favorite," think that there's some sort of ideal aesthetic criteria that is kowtowed to but ultimately ignored ("I know Citizen Kane is a better movie, but I like Toxic Avenger more"). This will eliminate the guilt out of "guilty pleasure."

Amen^2.

[Qrazy]

Ehh sometimes I agree with you guys like if someone prefers The Fellowship of the Ring to Citizen Kane or whatever but if say someone prefers Plan 9 from Outerspace to Citizen Kane because they like to laugh at the former and they prefer laughter to anything they get from watching Kane, than I see nothing wrong with them establishing a difference between what they prefer and what they recognize to be a better film. This is of course not to say that there is some immutable ordering of best films, just that there can be a discrepancy between better and favorite.

[Spinal]

Yes, The Bicycle Thief is provocative. Who is the real thief? What makes someone a thief?

Bicycle Thieves is literal.

[transmogrifier]

I worry, with the existence of this thread, all other discussions are going to dry up through lack of material, and we are going to be left with this and 7,641 list threads.

[Sycophant]

We'll also have excitable threads for horror/superhero movie hype.

[transmogrifier]

We'll also have excitable threads for horror/superhero movie hype.

Oh, I was talking about the General Discussion section. The Upcoming Film Discussion section has its own deep psychological issues.

[Sycophant]

Oh, right. Proposed amendment withdrawn.

[lovejuice]

If you like something, say that it's good and argue from there.
nope. that'll never hold up for me. aesthetic is too complicated a matter to simply say something is good or bad. on the other hand, "like" or "dislike" is a much easier choice to make.

if i recognize that in some level, wild strawberry is a good movie for some sorta people with some sorta mind which is not me, should i just say it's a total garbage?

[baby doll]

nope. that'll never hold up for me. aesthetic is too complicated a matter to simply say something is good or bad. on the other hand, "like" or "dislike" is a much easier choice to make.

if i recognize that in some level, wild strawberry is a good movie for some sorta people with some sorta mind which is not me, should i just say it's a total garbage?What's so good about Wild Strawberries? Even by the standards of the Self Discovery Road Movie, this is plodding. And the symbolism is just so stupid, with his death reaching out for him.

As for De Sica's film, I'm just going to go on calling it Bicycle Thieves because that's what it's called. I'm not going to decide that the title A Man Escaped is a spoiler and start calling it One or More Persons of Indefinite Sex Tries to Escape, Maybe.

[Spinal]

As for De Sica's film, I'm just going to go on calling it Bicycle Thieves because that's what it's called. I'm not going to decide that the title A Man Escaped is a spoiler and start calling it One or More Persons of Indefinite Sex Tries to Escape, Maybe.

The film has been known as The Bicycle Thief in the United States for years. It's not like I arbitrarily made it up.

[Qrazy]

What's so good about Wild Strawberries? Even by the standards of the Self Discovery Road Movie, this is plodding. And the symbolism is just so stupid, with his death reaching out for him.

As for De Sica's film, I'm just going to go on calling it Bicycle Thieves because that's what it's called. I'm not going to decide that the title A Man Escaped is a spoiler and start calling it One or More Persons of Indefinite Sex Tries to Escape, Maybe.

With A Man Escaped the spoiler is intentional. With The Bicycle Thieves I guess De Sica also intended the spoiler in that case I just don't think he should have. Whereas the spoiler meshes with Bresson's film I don't see what it adds to De Sica's. I do see what it takes away though.

[Spinal]

Bicycle Thieves is not really a spoiler unless you already know what's being spoiled.

[Eleven]

Amen^2.

Yeah, fight against critical sycophantism, Sycophant!


nope. that'll never hold up for me. aesthetic is too complicated a matter to simply say something is good or bad. on the other hand, "like" or "dislike" is a much easier choice to make.

if i recognize that in some level, wild strawberry is a good movie for some sorta people with some sorta mind which is not me, should i just say it's a total garbage?

This is where the "argue from there" part comes in, since nothing should ever stop with a simple aesthetic judgment without at least some elucidation. I suppose like/dislike could replace good/bad as terms altogether. I guess I just dislike the term "guilty pleasure" and would rather advocate owning one's likes and dislikes and putting forth a positive argument in defense of what one perceives as virtues. Own one's subjectivity. These are admittedly problems more endemic to other places I've posted than here.


And I don't think the FDT should be worried, there's always more than enough arguing, er, "discussion," to go around.


Another thing: Is a good director (here I go with good/bad, again!) one who makes good films, or can a good director have made only one great film and several bad films? If you want to couch this in the like/dislike dichotomy, which do you like better: a director who has directed many films you merely like, or one who has directed one or two films you love and many you either feel neutral about or dislike?

[MacGuffin]

Another thing: Is a good director (here I go with good/bad, again!) one who makes good films, or can a good director have made only one great film and several bad films? If you want to couch this in the like/dislike dichotomy, which do you like better: a director who has directed many films you merely like, or one who has directed one or two films you love and many you either feel neutral about or dislike?

I'd probably call a director the average of how I'd grade his movies. For example:

**** Masterpiece (One of the best directors)
***½ Excellent
*** Great
**½ Good
** Average
*½ Mediocre
* Bad
½ Awful
Zero stars Irredeemable (One of the worst directors)

Kiyoshi Kurosawa:

Cure ***
Séance **
Bright Future ***½
Pulse **½

Average: 2.75, which rounds to 3. So I'd probably call him a great director at this point, especially because my ratings may increase on multiple viewings.

[Eleven]

Yeah, one time I tried using my numbered ratings to average out scores for directors, but it came out quite a bit different than my usual personal rankings. I obviously put it down to ratings and rankings not being exact sciences.

For instance, I'm a big fan of each of James Cameron's films individually, except for maybe Titanic, yet I've never ever considered him a favorite director. Maybe I should.

[baby doll]

The film has been known as The Bicycle Thief in the United States for years. It's not like I arbitrarily made it up. I think the simplest thing to do is let the director name their own film. So between the incorrect American title, and the English title, which is more or less an accurate translation of the original Italian title, I'll go with the right one.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, fight against critical sycophantism, Sycophant!



This is where the "argue from there" part comes in, since nothing should ever stop with a simple aesthetic judgment without at least some elucidation. I suppose like/dislike could replace good/bad as terms altogether. I guess I just dislike the term "guilty pleasure" and would rather advocate owning one's likes and dislikes and putting forth a positive argument in defense of what one perceives as virtues. Own one's subjectivity. These are admittedly problems more endemic to other places I've posted than here.


And I don't think the FDT should be worried, there's always more than enough arguing, er, "discussion," to go around.


Another thing: Is a good director (here I go with good/bad, again!) one who makes good films, or can a good director have made only one great film and several bad films? If you want to couch this in the like/dislike dichotomy, which do you like better: a director who has directed many films you merely like, or one who has directed one or two films you love and many you either feel neutral about or dislike?

I think consistency is important to be a great director. If you only direct one great film and a bunch of mediocre or terrible crap than you're probably not that great, the right things just fell into place for that one film. I haven't really seen his other films so I could be wrong but let's say for that category, Richard Rush. There are some exceptions, if the individual only directed one or a handful of films or if they're very prolific and made some amazing films but then a lot of mediocre ones, then they may still be very good... that is to say I would not average like Clipper Ship. However I would take the other films into account such that if the director is not consistent he would be very good rather than great.

[Qrazy]

I think the simplest thing to do is let the director name their own film. So between the incorrect American title, and the English title, which is more or less an accurate translation of the original Italian title, I'll go with the right one.

In general I agree with you but once the incorrect edit or title or what have you has been around for a while the question then becomes... which is a better edit/title rather than which title ought to be used. Perhaps for moral reasons we ought to favor De Sica's title, but which title is better (for aesethetic rather than moral reasons)?

[Spinal]

I think the simplest thing to do is let the director name their own film. So between the incorrect American title, and the English title, which is more or less an accurate translation of the original Italian title, I'll go with the right one.


I don't care what the original title translates to. The Bicycle Thief is a better title than Bicycle Thieves.

... which brings us back to Do.

[Russ]

I think the simplest thing to do is let the director name their own film. So between the incorrect American title, and the English title, which is more or less an accurate translation of the original Italian title, I'll go with the right one.
Yes, but, Spinal's original post simply stated that the American title, in retrospect of the film's content, and regardless of the director's intent, is the "better" of the two titles.

And I would agree (as brilliant as the film is, De Sica missed the boat on the better title, imo).

[Raiders]

I think we should just use the "Symphony Method" when naming films. Like, Hard Eight would be Paul Thomas Anderson's First. Then, There Will Be Blood would be Paul Thomas Anderson's Fifth.

[Qrazy]

I think The Godfather comparison I made is a particularly good one because it makes the title into a role and a social label rather than a descriptor. The idea of A Godfather is a bigger concept than specific Godfathers. The film may focus on specific Godfathers but even more so it's about the role itself and what this means and how the role fits into the surrounding society. The same goes for The Bicycle Thief.

[baby doll]

In general I agree with you but once the incorrect edit or title or what have you has been around for a while the question then becomes... which is a better edit/title rather than which title ought to be used. Perhaps for moral reasons we ought to favor De Sica's title, but which title is better (for aesethetic rather than moral reasons)?But since it was only called The Bicycle Thief in the United States and Canada, and the Criterion region 1 DVD uses the correct title, it seems to me like we should all get with the program. In other words, we should call it Bicycle Thieves for the same reason the US should switch to the metric system, and England should switch to the Euro.

[baby doll]

I think The Godfather comparison I made is a particularly good one because it makes the title into a role and a social label rather than a descriptor. The idea of A Godfather is a bigger concept than specific Godfathers. The film may focus on specific Godfathers but even more so it's about the role itself and what this means and how the role fits into the surrounding society. The same goes for The Bicycle Thief.Except that The Godfather is the title Puzo gave to the novel and Coppola kept it for the film. There's no middle-man here mistranslating it.

[Spun Lepton]

Finally! A thread that drops all pretense about what we do here at Match Cut. Viva!!

[Mysterious Dude]

I think we should just use the "Symphony Method" when naming films. Like, Hard Eight would be Paul Thomas Anderson's First. Then, There Will Be Blood would be Paul Thomas Anderson's Fifth.It's bad enough they do that for classical music. I never know what I'm listening to.

And isn't "Moonlight Sonata" so much easier to remember than "Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14"?

[Duncan]

I think they number classical music because giving it a name like "Moonlight Sonata" suggests a visual and emotional interpretation, whereas with numbers you're forced to just listen to the music and let it do whatever it does.

[Dead & Messed Up]

That doesn't make any sense.

I'd be more worried if it made sense.

[Qrazy]

Except that The Godfather is the title Puzo gave to the novel and Coppola kept it for the film. There's no middle-man here mistranslating it.

The point of this discussion isn't what should it be called. It's which is better.

[Qrazy]

I think they number classical music because giving it a name like "Moonlight Sonata" suggests a visual and emotional interpretation, whereas with numbers you're forced to just listen to the music and let it do whatever it does.

Now I listen to the music and picture it conforming to the shape of an enormous 14. Thanks historicity, you twat.

[baby doll]

The point of this discussion isn't what should it be called. It's which is better.I'm sure there are thousands of potential titles vastly superior to Bicycle Thieves, but that doesn't mean we should decide on our own to change the film's title.

[MacGuffin]

This isn't really semantics, but it's related to titles: everyone who calls the movie L'Humanité, you're wrong, it's called L'humanité.

[Russ]

I'm sure there are thousands of potential titles vastly superior to Bicycle Thieves, but that doesn't mean we should decide on our own to change the film's title.
And who exactly is suggesting that we should?

[baby doll]

And who exactly is suggesting that we should?The people who want to call it The Bicycle Thief because they like it better when it's not the title of the film.

[baby doll]

This isn't really semantics, but it's related to titles: everyone who calls the movie L'Humanité, you're wrong, it's called L'humanité.My understanding is that in French, you capitalize the second word of a title if it begins with "Le," "La," or "L'." But I could be wrong.

[MacGuffin]

My understanding is that in French, you capitalize the second word of a title if it begins with "Le," "La," or "L'." But I could be wrong.

Read the last paragraph of this (http://academichack.net/humanite.htm).

[baby doll]

Read the last paragraph of this (http://academichack.net/humanite.htm).Thanks for pointing that out.

[Russ]

I can see this thread's destiny.

It will devour us all.

[Qrazy]

I'm sure there are thousands of potential titles vastly superior to Bicycle Thieves, but that doesn't mean we should decide on our own to change the film's title.

The point of this discussion isn't what should it be called. It's which is better.

[megladon8]

Is Unbreakable a comic book movie or a superhero movie?

[transmogrifier]

Is Unbreakable a comic book movie or a superhero movie?

Neither. It is a satirical take on the Bruce Willis persona.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Is Unbreakable a comic book movie or a superhero movie?

Both, brah.

[megladon8]

Here's one...why is the term "comic book movie" only ever used in association with superhero-related films?

I almost always see people referring to films like Ghost World, Road to Perdition and A History of Violence as "dramas". They often totally neglect the fact that all three of these films are based on comic books.

In fact, a good chunk of today's films in general are based on the comic medium.

Is it a lame attempt at sounding more sophisticated by not acknowledging the film's roots, like a country bumpkin trying to blend in with city-folk?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Here's one...why is the term "comic book movie" only ever used in association with superhero-related films?

I almost always see people referring to films like Ghost World, Road to Perdition and A History of Violence as "dramas". They often totally neglect the fact that all three of these films are based on comic books.

In fact, a good chunk of today's films in general are based on the comic medium.

Is it a lame attempt at sounding more sophisticated by not acknowledging the film's roots, like a country bumpkin trying to blend in with city-folk?

I figure it's just not as obvious. Ghost World and History of Violence don't carry many symptoms of the John Q. Public view of comic books.

[megladon8]

I figure it's just not as obvious. Ghost World and History of Violence don't carry many symptoms of the John Q. Public view of comic books.


But even something like Sin City or 300 rarely gets mentioned as a comic book movie unless it's an educated source.

These films were totally advertised up the butt as being based on Frank Miller's comic books, but still people call them "action movies" or whatever.

Is the presence of superheroes really the only thing that people identify as being "comic book"?

[number8]

I wanna know why nobody ever calls The Lord of the Rings or Revolutionary Road "paperback novel movies."

[Russ]

But even something like Sin City or 300 rarely gets mentioned as a comic book movie unless it's an educated source.

These films were totally advertised up the butt as being based on Frank Miller's comic books, but still people call them "action movies" or whatever.

Is the presence of superheroes really the only thing that people identify as being "comic book"?

Ooh ooh, I know the answer to this!

Movies like like Sin City and 300 have more prominent roots in pulp/noir and historical literature, respectively, than in comic books, whereas superheroes rarely have been featured outside of the graphic arts medium. Right?

[megladon8]

I wanna know why nobody ever calls The Lord of the Rings or Revolutionary Road "paperback novel movies."


I've never heard that term used, ever.

[baby doll]

The point of this discussion isn't what should it be called. It's which is better.But what I'm saying is, whether or not The Bicycle Thief is in your opinion the better title, that's not what the movie's called. De Sica called it Bicycle Thieves (well, technically he called it Ladri di biciclette, the most faithful English translation of which is Bicycle Thieves), and his reason for this couldn't be more obvious: there are two thieves in the story.

[baby doll]

I wanna know why nobody ever calls The Lord of the Rings or Revolutionary Road "paperback novel movies."Like the kind that drugstores sell?

[Qrazy]

But what I'm saying is, whether or not The Bicycle Thief is in your opinion the better title, that's not what the movie's called. De Sica called it Bicycle Thieves (well, technically he called it Ladri di biciclette, the most faithful English translation of which is Bicycle Thieves), and his reason for this couldn't be more obvious: there are two thieves in the story.

The point of this discussion isn't what it should be called. It's which is better.

Tell me why you think his title is the better title, because that's what we're discussing, not what it should be called.

There are also two Godfathers in The Godfather.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I think people who differentiate between "favorite/best" and "movie/film" are totally lame. Moreso the latter than the former.

George Costanza on Rochelle Rochelle: "...a foreign movie...a film is what it is!"

[megladon8]

I think people who differentiate between "favorite/best" and "movie/film" are totally lame. Moreso the latter than the former.

George Costanza on Rochelle Rochelle: "...a foreign movie...a film is what it is!"



How about people who pronounce it "fillim"?

Or people who refer to foreign flicks by their foreign titles in speech, even when they're commonly known by their English title?

It really makes me want to punch them in their condescending faces.

[Spun Lepton]

How about people who pronounce it "fillim"?

Or people who refer to foreign flicks by their foreign titles in speech, even when they're commonly known by their English title?

It really makes me want to punch them in their condescending faces.

I love to refer to the grungiest, trashiest and sleaziest Italian movies by their Italian names. "Have you seen E tu vivrai nel terrore - L'aldilÃ*? I love it when the demon hand comes out of the wall and pokes the repairman's eyes out. Pure cinema, that."

"You can not deny the zest for filmmaking that is alive in Paura nella cittÃ* dei morti viventi. When the girl vomits up her own intestinal tract -- that's cinema re-defined. That's a pure love for a holstic art, lost on many, but not on an auteur like Lucio Fulci."

[megladon8]

I have to admit, though, that I can sometimes understand the "best/favorite" difference.

Schindler's List is a much better movie than UHF...but I'd probably put the latter higher on my favorites list.

[Sven]

But what I'm saying is, whether or not The Bicycle Thief is in your opinion the better title, that's not what the movie's called.

Yes it is.

*so much fun!*

[Dead & Messed Up]

I have to admit, though, that I can sometimes understand the "best/favorite" difference.

Schindler's List is a much better movie than UHF...but I'd probably put the latter higher on my favorites list.

I just figure that if you have a list of films that you love, why differentiate? I figure that as long as you understand and can explain why, then there should be no real distinction. Films can touch us personally and deeply, regardless of whether their material is easily accessible or artistically superior. We like what we like.

I'd put Dawn of the Dead above Casablanca and The Bicycle Thief, and I can explain why, should anyone ask.

So deal with it, bitches.

[number8]

I just figure that if you have a list of films that you love, why differentiate? I figure that as long as you understand and can explain why, then there should be no real distinction. Films can touch us personally and deeply, regardless of whether their material is easily accessible or artistically superior. We like what we like.

I'd put Dawn of the Dead above Casablanca and The Bicycle Thief, and I can explain why, should anyone ask.

So deal with it, bitches.

I agree.

[Qrazy]

I just figure that if you have a list of films that you love, why differentiate? I figure that as long as you understand and can explain why, then there should be no real distinction. Films can touch us personally and deeply, regardless of whether their material is easily accessible or artistically superior. We like what we like.

I'd put Dawn of the Dead above Casablanca and The Bicycle Thief, and I can explain why, should anyone ask.

So deal with it, bitches.

You can attempt to explain why and finding your explanation unsatisfactory you would fail.

[Dead & Messed Up]

You can attempt to explain why and finding your explanation unsatisfactory you would fail.

No, you would find my explanation unsatisfactory, and that's your cross to bear, mon frere.

[Qrazy]

No, you would find my explanation unsatisfactory, and that's your cross to bear, mon frere.

I think we should just agree to disagree with what you just said and conclude that I'm right.

[Spinal]

But what I'm saying is, whether or not The Bicycle Thief is in your opinion the better title, that's not what the movie's called. De Sica called it Bicycle Thieves (well, technically he called it Ladri di biciclette, the most faithful English translation of which is Bicycle Thieves), and his reason for this couldn't be more obvious: there are two thieves in the story.

You are too caught up with the literal. I'm going to try one last time to explain this. The beauty of The Bicycle Thief is that early on you think you know what the title means. All the while, you watch the events unfold and you think you know what that title refers to. But then the devastating finale comes and it takes on a meaning that is unexpected. You are forced to re-evaluate the initial bias that you had when you heard those words.

From Wikipedia: "When the film was re-released in the late 1990s Bob Graham, staff film critic for the San Francisco Chronicle, was quoted as saying that he preferred the title The Bicycle Thief, stating, 'Purists have criticized the English title of the film as a poor translation of the Italian ladri, which is plural. What blindness! The Bicycle Thief is one of those wonderful titles whose power does not sink in until the film is over.'"

Exactly. If it's a mistranslation, then it's a happy accident. Or perhaps someone really did feel that the title would have more resonance that way to English speakers. Do all translations need to be slavishly literal? Of course not. There has to be room for poetry and nuance.

[BuffaloWilder]

How about people who pronounce it "fillim"?




http://s.bebo.com/app-image/6392617909/6392598862/PROFILE/i.idlestudios.com/img/q/u/08/03/30/dougallu6.jpg

[MacGuffin]

I mostly find Bicycle Thieves to be an insensitive title, whether it is the real title or not.

[Qrazy]

You are too caught up with the literal. I'm going to try one last time to explain this. The beauty of The Bicycle Thief is that early on you think you know what the title means. All the while, you watch the events unfold and you think you know what that title refers to. But then the devastating finale comes and it takes on a meaning that is unexpected. You are forced to re-evaluate the initial bias that you had when you heard those words.

From Wikipedia: "When the film was re-released in the late 1990s Bob Graham, staff film critic for the San Francisco Chronicle, was quoted as saying that he preferred the title The Bicycle Thief, stating, 'Purists have criticized the English title of the film as a poor translation of the Italian ladri, which is plural. What blindness! The Bicycle Thief is one of those wonderful titles whose power does not sink in until the film is over.'"

Exactly. If it's a mistranslation, then it's a happy accident. Or perhaps someone really did feel that the title would have more resonance that way to English speakers. Do all translations need to be slavishly literal? Of course not. There has to be room for poetry and nuance.

AMERICAN: CHINESE

As Good as it Gets: Mr. Cat Poop
Fargo: Mysterious Murder in Snowy cream
3 Men and a Baby": Marx, Lenin & Mao change a diaper
The China Syndrome: American Nutballs
Nixon: The Big Liar
Boogie Nights: His Powerful device makes him famous
The Full Monty: Six Naked Pigs
The English Patient: Don't Ask me Who I Am
From Russia With Love: 007 Averted the Spy Plot
Vampire in Brooklyn: I Suck, I suck, I suck suck suck
Babe, Pig in the City: I'm well behaved because I want to go abroad

AMERICAN: FRENCH
From here to Eternity: As long as there will be men
Dumb & Dumber: The dope and the idiot
Bad Girls: Luscious women of the West
Fried Green Tomatoes: The secret is in the Sauce
Big: Small Man
The Matrix: The young people who traverse Dimensions while wearing sunglasses

AMERICAN: GERMAN

Annie Hall: The Urban Neurotic
Dragnet: Yellow cops don't Bite
The Truth about Cats and Dogs: Lies have long legs
Airplane!: The Unbelievable journey in a crazy airplane
Devil's Rain: Nights, When the Corpses Scream
K-9: My Partner with the cold Snout
Parent Trap: A Twin seldom comes alone

AMERICAN: JAPANESE

License to Kill: The Cancelled License
You Only live Twice: You Only die Twice
Bonnie & Clyde: There is no tomorrow for Us
Benny & Joon: My Sister's Lover
Army of Darkness: Captain Supermarket
The Horse Whisperer: Held by Wind in Montana
Girl, Interrupted: 17-year old girls medical chart
Basic Instinct: A Smile of Ice
Cool Hand Luke: Violent Jailbreak

AMERICAN: POLISH

There's Something about mary: From the love of a Blonde
Alien: The Eigth Passenger of the Nostromo

AMERICAN: SPANISH (Mexico)

Bedazzled: To Hell with the Devil
Disney's The Kid: Meeting with Myself
Drowning Mona: Who didn't kill Mona?
Snatch: Pigs and Diamonds
The Man with Two Brains: The Erotic Doctor

[Spinal]

Exactly. I feel sorry for those who cannot hear the poetry and nuance in Mr. Cat Poop.

[soitgoes...]

Exactly. I feel sorry for those who cannot hear the poetry and nuance in Mr. Cat Poop.I'd prefer it you'd italicize next time. Your boldness hurts my eyes.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I think we should just agree to disagree with what you just said and conclude that I'm right.

I accept your apology.

[baby doll]

The point of this discussion isn't what it should be called. It's which is better.

Tell me why you think his title is the better title, because that's what we're discussing, not what it should be called.

There are also two Godfathers in The Godfather.They aren't godfather at the same time though. Anybody can be a bicycle thief.

[baby doll]

You are too caught up with the literal. I'm going to try one last time to explain this. The beauty of The Bicycle Thief is that early on you think you know what the title means. All the while, you watch the events unfold and you think you know what that title refers to. But then the devastating finale comes and it takes on a meaning that is unexpected. You are forced to re-evaluate the initial bias that you had when you heard those words.

From Wikipedia: "When the film was re-released in the late 1990s Bob Graham, staff film critic for the San Francisco Chronicle, was quoted as saying that he preferred the title The Bicycle Thief, stating, 'Purists have criticized the English title of the film as a poor translation of the Italian ladri, which is plural. What blindness! The Bicycle Thief is one of those wonderful titles whose power does not sink in until the film is over.'"

Exactly. If it's a mistranslation, then it's a happy accident. Or perhaps someone really did feel that the title would have more resonance that way to English speakers. Do all translations need to be slavishly literal? Of course not. There has to be room for poetry and nuance.Slavishly literal would be The 400 Blows, where the original title is an idiom.

In this case, I don't feel like it's that big of a surprise that the guy tries to steal a bike at the end. The entire film is very simple and direct in its approach to telling a story, so for that reason, the English title is almost a betrayal of the spirit of the film by trying to conceal something.

[MacGuffin]

I'd probably call a director the average of how I'd grade his movies. For example:

Scratch that. My math is horrible, this doesn't work at all.

[Qrazy]

The entire film is very simple and direct in its approach to telling a story, so for that reason, the English title is almost a betrayal of the spirit of the film by trying to conceal something.

Not really.