Get Me into the Old and Artsy!

[Milky Joe]

So I have recently had a somewhat intense urge to watch more old, artsy black-and-white films. I recently watched Persona, saw a bit of Murnau's The Last Laugh in my film class, added some Fassbinder to my Netflix Instant queue, and I have Au Hasard Balthazar on my computer, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed as to where to really begin. I'd like to see more of the Big Name Director films (Bergman, Bresson, et al), but I really just want to see the most interesting stuff without having to comb through massive, italicized filmographies. I'm not that much of a completist.

Anyway, I know this is a damn good place to ask about such things. If you could name one or two of your favorite films of this type--artsy and black-and-white (silent, European, both or otherwise, everything goes)--I'll make a list and watch them, and post my thoughts about them, however meagre they may be. I've never really made a thread like this here before, so I rather look forward to it.

[B-side]

This oughta be interesting. I'm assuming you're aiming for the big guys right now, so I'll avoid the lesser-known directors. It's not usually a good idea to jump right into what a lot of people consider a director's best work as those they favor tend to be more difficult, yet more rewarding films. For instance, with Godard, I'm sure a lot of people would tout the likes of Contempt as a favorite, but that's not a good place to start. I'd say you should start with Breathless. But alas, this is your thread, and I don't wanna derail it, so here are a few favorites of mine that are old, foreign and black and white:

My Night at Maud's (Rohmer, 1969)
Harakiri (Kobayashi, 1962)
The Passion of Joan of Arc (Dreyer, 1928)

[Duncan]

Andrei Rublev
L'Avventura

[trotchky]

I'm no expert, but I really like City Lights.

[B-side]

I'm no expert, but I really like City Lights.

I think I prefer Modern Times. Been a while, though.

[Spinal]

Rashomon
The Bicycle Thief
The 400 Blows
The General
The Virgin Spring

There is my starter kit for you.

[Milky Joe]

Well I've seen Breathless and both those Chaplin films and am a big fan of all of them. I've also seen 8 1/2 before anyone mentions that.

But thanks for the recommendations so far. I feel like Jeanne d'arc should be pretty standard viewing so I think I'll get that one out of the way first. And I've been meaning to see both of Duncan's films for a while.

I've seen Rashomon, The Bicycle Thief, and The 400 Blows (one of my favorites), but the other two are on the list.

[BuffaloWilder]

Definitely The General. But, I don't know that I'd call that artsy. It's pure, acrobatic cinema.

[Spinal]

Definitely The General. But, I don't know that I'd call that artsy. It's pure, acrobatic cinema.

Metropolis then.

[trotchky]

I think I prefer Modern Times. Been a while, though.

I've never seen Modern Times, though I want to. I've only seen two Chaplin films and the other one (The Great Dictator) was pretty average. But yeah, I seriously love City Lights so I want to watch some of his other established "masterpieces," which is saying something because I don't really care about "canonical" movies at all anymore. I think I'd be happy watching Kubrick, Woody Allen, and P.T. Anderson films for the rest of my life.

[B-side]

I've never seen Modern Times, though I want to. I've only seen two Chaplin films and the other one (The Great Dictator) was pretty average. But yeah, I seriously love City Lights so I want to watch some of his other established "masterpieces," which is saying something because I don't really care about "canonical" movies at all anymore. I think I'd be happy watching Kubrick, Woody Allen, and P.T. Anderson films for the rest of my life.

I know how you feel. Definitely check out Modern Times. Less romantic, more satirical, but always awesome.

[Boner M]

A Man Escaped
The 400 Blows
Sansho the Bailiff
Our Hospitality
M

Or something like that.

[Melville]

Ordet
The Mirror (not that old-timey or black and white, but it needs to be seen)
Woman in the Dunes
Diary of a Country Priest
Titicut Follies

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Wages of Fear
Rififi
Ikiru
Seven Chances
The Passion of Joan of Arc


This list is life.

[Ezee E]

Passion of Joan of Arc
The Virgin Spring
Sunrise
Detour
Touch of Evil (assuming you've seen Citizen Kane)

[Qrazy]

Only Black and White Arthouse:

Chimes at Midnight
The Trial
Nights of Cabiria
La Strada
La Dolce Vita
Paths of Glory
Lolita
Hour of the Wolf
Seventh Seal
Through a Glass Darkly
Smiles of a Summer Night
La Grande Illusion
Rules of the Game
Throne of Blood
Seven Samurai
High and Low
Red Beard
Hidden Fortress
Band of Outsiders
The Apartment
Sunset Boulevard
Ace in the Hole
Some Like it Hot
Exterminating Angel
Viridiana
Tokyo Story
Au Hasard Balthazar
Pickpocket
A Man Escaped
Ivan's Childhood
Andrei Rublev
Ivan the Terrible I and II
Jules and Jim
Shoot the Piano Player
Ugetsu
Sherlock Jr.
Steamboat Bill Jr.
Umberto D
Rocco and His Brothers
L'avventura
La Notte
L'eclisse
The Apu Trilogy
Wajda's War Trilogy
Maltese Falcon
Treasure of the Sierra Madre
L'atalante
Manhattan
Repulsion
Hiroshima Mon Amour
The Third Man
Faces
Eraserhead
M Hulot's Holiday
On the Waterfront
A Streetcar Named Desire
12 Angry Men
Onibaba
Samurai Rebellion
Human Condition Trilogy
Fires on the Plain
The Hustler
Hud
Lola

And many, many more.

[Pathétique]

The major works by Bergman, Godard, Fellini, and Kurosawa would probably provide a good starting point to exploring the essential art house classics.

[BuffaloWilder]

The major works by Bergman, Godard, Fellini, and Kurosawa would probably provide a good starting point to exploring the essential art house classics.

Bergman, Godard and Fellini, sure. But, is Kurosawa really an 'art-house' director? He always seemed to me like the Japanese equivalent to someone like a John Ford.

[baby doll]

Bergman, Godard and Fellini, sure. But, is Kurosawa really an 'art-house' director? He always seemed to me like the Japanese equivalent to someone like a John Ford.There's the thing: the fact that he's Japanese automatically makes him an art-house director in a North American context, regardless of narrative structure or style. Besides, art-house audiences generally don't want to be challenged too much; a conventional thriller like Frozen River will always do better than a film like Tulpan.

[Duncan]

John Ford's films belong in the "art-house" just as much as Bergman's, or Lang's, or Fellini's.

[MacGuffin]

Yeah, I guess when I think art-house, I think artistic movies, which wouldn't include your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare.

[baby doll]

John Ford's films belong in the "art-house" just as much as Bergman's, or Lang's, or Fellini's.Lang wasn't an art house director, either. If Die Nibelungen, Metropolis, Spies, and The Tiger of Echnapur and The Indian Tomb aren't broad, popular blockbusters, then I don't know what is.

[Duncan]

Yeah, I guess when I think art-house, I think artistic movies, which wouldn't include your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare.

And films like My Darling Clementine and The Searchers aren't your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare, despite being made within the studio system.

[MacGuffin]

Lang wasn't an art house director, either. If Die Nibelungen, Metropolis, Spies, and The Tiger of Echnapur and The Indian Tomb aren't broad, popular blockbusters, then I don't know what is.

Here is where I don't follow. By saying those movies aren't "art-house" isn't that the same as saying that they aren't art? Maybe I don't understand the phrase, and while I don't want to get into a semantics arguments, I'm curious as to the inner-meanings of the phrase.

As for Lang, I still have to see Die Nibelungen and Spies. In the UK, Masters of Cinema has already announced a fantastic looking setting for the first, and have already released the second. They've also announced a Dr. Mabuse box set. When I get a more disposable income, I'll be doing greater research.

[MacGuffin]

And films like My Darling Clementine and The Searchers aren't your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare, despite being made within the studio system.

I haven't seen them, but I'm sure they have more artistic intentions than they do economic intentions, which could very well be the deciding factor or whether a movie is art-house or not, going from the things I know about the phrase.

[Duncan]

I'm stepping out.

[MacGuffin]

I'm stepping out.

Fair enough. I'm just trying to get some sort of idea here. I'm not looking for a ten-page argument.

[baby doll]

And films like My Darling Clementine and The Searchers aren't your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare, despite being made within the studio system.I don't have much esteem for My Darling Clementine (I'll give it another look one of these days), but The Searchers seems to me a great example of classical Hollywood filmmaking--not art-house filmmaking, not by a mile. To put it another way, Singin' in the Rain, Vertigo, and We Own the Night are your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare (whatever that means), and they're among the greatest films ever made.

[baby doll]

Here is where I don't follow. By saying those movies aren't "art-house" isn't that the same as saying that they aren't art? Maybe I don't understand the phrase, and while I don't want to get into a semantics arguments, I'm curious as to the inner-meanings of the phrase.

As for Lang, I still have to see Die Nibelungen and Spies. In the UK, Masters of Cinema has already announced a fantastic looking setting for the first, and have already released the second. They've also announced a Dr. Mabuse box set. When I get a more disposable income, I'll be doing greater research.By art-house, I simply mean the venue where the films are shown--namely, small, indepedent cinemas. All movies are art, even Transformers, because they're representations. They're not life.

[BuffaloWilder]

Here is where I don't follow. By saying those movies aren't "art-house" isn't that the same as saying that they aren't art? Maybe I don't understand the phrase, and while I don't want to get into a semantics arguments, I'm curious as to the inner-meanings of the phrase.

"Art-House" seems to refer to a generic set of sensibilities that those kinds of films tend to share. It's not really an indication of artistic merit, unless that's specifically how you're qualifying it.

EDIT - baby doll's explanation is also good.

[BuffaloWilder]

I don't have much esteem for My Darling Clementine (I'll give it another look one of these days), but The Searchers seems to me a great example of classical Hollywood filmmaking--not art-house filmmaking, not by a mile. To put it another way, Singin' in the Rain, Vertigo, and We Own the Night are your typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare (whatever that means), and they're among the greatest films ever made.

"Typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare" is a pretty weird phrase. What does it even mean? Someone who works in the studios? I mean, Kubrick worked with the studios. His films had pretty large budgets, for their time.

[MacGuffin]

By art-house, I simply mean the venue where the films are shown--namely, small, indepedent cinemas. All movies are art, even Transformers, because they're representations. They're not life.

Yeah, I agree. But some art is less artistic than others.

[baby doll]

"Typical Hollywood-Capitalism fare" is a pretty weird phrase. What does it even mean? Someone who works in the studios? I mean, Kubrick worked with the studios. His films had pretty large budgets, for their time.It sounds like the Captain's drawling the line at commercial filmmaking (which would include narrative art-house fare--even films that deviate from Hollywood norms of storytelling, like L'Année dernière Ã* Marienbad) and the avant-garde (Brakhage, Frampton, Snow, etc.).

[MacGuffin]

It sounds like the Captain's drawling the line at commercial filmmaking (which would include narrative art-house fare--even films that deviate from Hollywood norms of storytelling, like L'Année dernière Ã* Marienbad) and the avant-garde (Brakhage, Frampton, Snow, etc.).

Not exactly. I'm drawing the line between movies made simply with the intention of making money (the Saw movies for example) and films with actual artistic merit. But I realize this is probably too controversial and too subjective a distinction.

[BuffaloWilder]

It sounds like the Captain's drawling the line at commercial filmmaking (which would include narrative art-house fare--even films that deviate from Hollywood norms of storytelling, like L'Année dernière Ã* Marienbad) and the avant-garde (Brakhage, Frampton, Snow, etc.).

But that's just --

http://www.mocpages.com/user_images/24737/12442048181_SPLASH.jpg

[baby doll]

Not exactly. I'm drawing the line between movies made simply with the intention of making money (the Saw movies for example) and films with actual artistic merit. But I realize this is probably too controversial and too subjective a distinction.Well, all commercial films are made with the intention of making money. Who wants to go to the trouble of making a film that nobody's going to see?

[MacGuffin]

Well, all commercial films are made with the intention of making money. Who wants to go to the trouble of making a film nobody's going to see?

Even movies with the intention of making money can have artistic vision.

[baby doll]

Even movies with the intention of making money can have artistic vision.And even movies with the intention of making art can have a commercial vision.

[MacGuffin]

And even movies with the intention of making art can have a commercial vision.

Yeah, I never argued against this. But when movies have movie of a commercial vision than they do artistic vision is when the "art" label becomes more and more questionable.

[BuffaloWilder]

And, conversely, even movies that aren't especially 'art-house' can be shown in an art-house theater.

Like Moon, for example.

[baby doll]

And, conversely, even movies that aren't especially 'art-house' can be shown in an art-house theater.

Like Moon, for example.Or Kurosawa. I mean, in a North American context, Miyazaki is an art-house director, but that's not the way he's seen in Asia. When I was in Korea, Ponyo on a Cliff by the Sea was playing everywhere.

[BuffaloWilder]

Or Kurosawa. I mean, in a North American context, Miyazaki is an art-house director, but that's not the way he's seen in Asia. When I was in Korea, Ponyo on a Cliff by the Sea was playing everywhere.

It's very strange, actually, now that you think about it. How do the Japanese see John Ford, I wonder?

[baby doll]

It's very strange, actually, now that you think about it. How do the Japanese see John Ford, I wonder?I dunno about Japan, but in South Korea, subtitled movies--you know, Kung-Fu Panda, The Dark Knight, Gran Torino--are regularly shown in big multiplexes.

[BuffaloWilder]

I dunno about Japan, but in South Korea, subtitled movies--you know, Kung-Fu Panda, The Dark Knight, Gran Torino--are regularly shown in big multiplexes.

hahahaha

[Milky Joe]

I've seen a fair chunk of those you mention, but good lord, Qrazy, I said one or two films.

And about this debate that's sprung up, I will say that I was thinking mainly of non classical-Hollywood films, but not necessary non-Hollywood (Welles is good, Gold Diggers of 1933 is not).

I'll watch the first film soon, hopefully today.

[Russ]

And about this debate that's sprung up, I will say that I was thinking mainly of non classical-Hollywood films, but not necessary non-Hollywood.
Try Mickey One.

[BuffaloWilder]

I loves me some classical Hollywood filmmaking. Mmmmm-mmm.

[Grouchy]

I loves me some classical Hollywood filmmaking. Mmmmm-mmm.
Yummy.

[monolith94]

Napoleon
The Seashell and the Clergyman
Orpheus

[Milky Joe]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zzl_dczrSAw/SH7GMefIJrI/AAAAAAAAAX0/w68WOO33eJ0/s400/Falconetti.jpg

The Passion of Joan of Arc (Dreyer, 1928)
The faces, the faces! This is exactly the film I needed to see: black and white, artsy, and old (but really, it totally got me in the mood to watch more of these films--it was the perfect way to start). It is also utterly devastating. Not a whole lot more needs to be said. I don't think this is a completely original thought, as I'm almost certain this film is buried in a time capsule somewhere, maybe several, but it feels like a film I'd want to show to an alien, if I was wanting to show off to it what human culture is capable of at its best. It's feels somehow transcendent, if I can use that word with a straight face.

But what's the situation with the score? I saw the Criterion version with Visions of Light, and it is obviously fantastic, but is that the standard soundtrack? It's hard to envision another piece of music behind it, honestly.

Next up: The Exterminating Angel

[B-side]

Glad you enjoyed it. I believe it was intended to be seen completely silent, but I wouldn't wanna watch it without that terrific score.

[Duncan]

My understanding is that there was no score written specifically for it at the time of its release, but that a live score would accompany it depending on the cinema it was being shown in. Or it could be played silent.

[Pathétique]

Oh boy, I thought I could use "art house" as shorthand for old, foreign, black-and-white films that are highly regarded by English-speaking cinephiles. Guess I have to find a new term.