Match Cut Directors Consensus - Pier Paolo Pasolini

[dreamdead]

It is time to rate Pier Paolo Pasolini's work, from the earliest to latest of his work that you've seen. Can we get two pages on Italian neorealism and experimentalism? I personally doubt it.

http://www.comune.ciampino.roma.it/home/images/stories/pasolini.jpg

[dreamdead]

The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 9.5
Teorema - 5
Salo - 7.5

[Boner M]

The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 7.5

A big blind spot.

[B-side]

Mamma Roma- 7.5
Teorema- 8
Salo- 7.5

[balmakboor]

Mama Roma - 8
The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 8
The Decameron - 6
Salo - 10

[Sven]

I side with Kael on Gospel. Jesus just becomes so irritating that I spent most of the movie wishing it were about one of his disciples instead of him. The first 20 minutes or so, though, are astonishing.

[B-side]

Teorema is a really good and really interesting film. I imagine some would argue it's Pasolini's other Jesus film.

[balmakboor]

I side with Kael on Gospel. Jesus just becomes so irritating that I spent most of the movie wishing it were about one of his disciples instead of him. The first 20 minutes or so, though, are astonishing.

Just wondering. I've always thought that a version of the story taking Judas as the main character would be fascinating. Kind of a Wicked take of the Gospels. Is anyone aware of such a thing existing yet?

I thought Judas was the most interesting character in The Last Temptation of Christ btw.

[Mysterious Dude]

Accattone - 7
Mamma Roma - 10
The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 9.5
The Hawks and the Sparrows - 7
Oedipus Rex - 9
The Decameron - 9
Salò - 1

[B-side]

Geez, I hope Gospel According to... is better than Last Temptation of Christ. The more I think about that movie, the less I like it.

[balmakboor]

Geez, I hope Gospel According to... is better than Last Temptation of Christ. The more I think about that movie, the less I like it.

Pasolini's film was one of Scorsese's inspirations.

I think Last Temptation has a great opening and is magnificent for about its last hour or so. It sort of wanders about the rest of the time as if it is as indecisive as its interpretation of Jesus' mind.

It is high on my list of movies needing a re-visit though.

[Ezee E]

Last Temptation grows on me with each viewing. A ton.

The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 6
Salò - 1

Eh.

Have Salo at home, and may check out Teorama, a movie that Ebert had no idea how to rate or critique, comparing to something along the lines of Last Year at Marienbad and the movies of Godard.

[Melville]

Teorema - 8

I thought it was pretty funny. Its critique of the middle class feels outdated, but it approaches that critique with enough exuberance and ridiculous touches to remain amusing and interesting.

[Derek]

Accattone - 8.5
The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 8.0
The Hawks and the Sparrows - 6.5
Oedipus Rex - 6.5
Teorema - 6.0
Medea - 6.5
Salo, or The 120 Days of Sodom - 8.5

Really want to see Mamma Roma.

[baby doll]

Accattone! (1961) [8]
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (1964) [8]
The Hawks and the Sparrows (1966) [8]
Oedipus Rex (1967) [8]
Teorema (1968) [10]
Salo, or The 120 Days of Sodom (1975) [5, but I need to rewatch it]

[Qrazy]

Arabian Nights - 5.5
The Canterbury Tales - 6.5
Il Decameron - 6.5
Porcile (1969) - 6
Teorema (1968) - 6
Hawks and Sparrows - 8
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (USA) - 7
Mamma Roma (1962) - 8

I have Accattone, Oedipus Rex and Salo so I'll probably watch one or a few before this is done.

For people who liked Teorema, Porcile is his most similar work.

I find his films consistently interesting and I like him generally as an artist much more than I care for his individual films.

[Raiders]

Mamma Roma (1962) 8.0
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (1964) 9.0
Hawks and Sparrows (1966) 7.0

[soitgoes...]

Mamma Roma (1962) - 8.5
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (1964) - 8.0

[Ezee E]

Updated with Salò.

Seems like an arthouse version of Saw to me. Roll your eyes if you desire, but please, tell me what's likeable about this movie as well.

[Derek]

Updated with Salò.

Seems like an arthouse version of Saw to me. Roll your eyes if you desire, but please, tell me what's likeable about this movie as well.

:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure Salo is attempting to be the antithesis of likable. Why would you want or expect a film about fascism to be likable? Were you looking for some type of connection to the characters that would make you want to sit at the table and eat shit with them?

It's been years since I've seen it, but here's my review (http://www.cinematicreflections.com/salo.html) from way back when.

[Derek]

Arabian Nights - 5.5
The Canterbury Tales - 6.5
Il Decameron - 6.5
Porcile (1969) - 6
Teorema (1968) - 6
Hawks and Sparrows - 8
The Gospel According to St. Matthew (USA) - 7
Mamma Roma (1962) - 8

You fail at ordering films chronologically.

[Ezee E]

:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure Salo is attempting to be the antithesis of likable. Why would you want or expect a film about fascism to be likable? Were you looking for some type of connection to the characters that would make you want to sit at the table and eat shit with them?

It's been years since I've seen it, but here's my review (http://www.cinematicreflections.com/salo.html) from way back when.
It's got that Haneke thing working for it. Strangely enough, he named this movie one of his top ten.

But with Haneke, his movies are still interesting to watch even without considering the message that he's trying to send. Funny Games and Cache still have me care about its characters, and they each play with cliches too. Salo just continues to one-up its previous scene, and its characters have nothing of value to me. It reminds me of Winston's picture of Dark Knight. I knew what I was getting into, so I forcefully stuck it out, but it was pretty tiresome. The only scene I liked was everyone singing at the table before it all went down.

[Derek]

But with Haneke, his movies are still interesting to watch even without considering the message that he's trying to send.

True, if you're more interested in befriending fictional characters than examining the messages Pasolini is trying to send, Salo does not offer you much.


Funny Games and Cache still have me care about its characters, and they each play with cliches too. Salo just continues to one-up its previous scene, and its characters have nothing of value to me.

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/Jeffg0107/Smiley/Suicide.gif

[Qrazy]

You fail at ordering films chronologically.

But I succeed at copy/pasting IMDB... which is the way we should do it... because it's easier.

[Qrazy]

Were you looking for some type of connection to the characters that would make you want to sit at the table and eat shit with them?


Blahahaha.

[Ezee E]

True, if you're more interested in befriending fictional characters than examining the messages Pasolini is trying to send, Salo does not offer you much.



http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/Jeffg0107/Smiley/Suicide.gif
Fascism is bad.

Got it.

[Mysterious Dude]

I'm pretty sure Salo is attempting to be the antithesis of likable. Why would you want or expect a film about fascism to be likable?
I don't understand this. Bertolucci's 1900 is about fascism, but isn't completely vile and unpleasant throughout its runtime, and has characters who are sympathetic and likeable. Why shouldn't a movie about fascism be likeable?

[Qrazy]

How did people feel about The Night Porter's approach to fascist content? Seven Beauties? Amarcord? The Conformist?

Minor Spoilers (not plot points):

Amarcord I thought handled it very well. Fascists are treated as an extension of perennial adolescence. Fascists are not demonized, reviled or pidgeon holed into the position of other as these films often seem to do. Seven Beauties does demonize the Nazis and it's formally much rougher around the edges... but it's focus on willful ignorance, and the protagonist's survivalist approach to life hit fairly hard by film's end. The Conformist takes a similar approach where the protagonist favors survival and collaboration over dignity and moral concerns. Although it replaces Seven Beauties final grim resolve with a protagonist filled with despair and self-loathing. The Night Porter has the potential to be interesting. It starts off with a Freudian examination of the victim/aggressor (slave/master) relationship, but then it gradually devolves. It's final examination of this relationship is ultimately relatively trite and the filmmaking has a flat, banal quality about it.

[dreamdead]

Despite my present middle-of-the-road rating, I see Salo as the antithesis of the conventional modern horror film--those films anesthetize their characters' violence and degradation so that they can then grovel in the torture. It's a form of fetishism there; here Pasolini is quite knowledgeable of that factor and at the end of the film he denies us any such release by limiting the death scenes to the long-shot binocular perspective. We are left agitated and not comforted, and the film is far more than a commentary on fascism than fascism = bad.

It's about the continual dehumanization process during war times, how a society can willingly subject (and subjugate) their brothers and sisters to the worst extremities. And how that same society can derive pleasure from the systematic torture of others, finding the brutality akin to a sexual release, to an orgy of delight. Is it artfully presented? Cinematically it is pretty damn immaculate, yes. Is it often static and belaboring? Yes. And I think that is wholly intentional.

[Llopin]

Salò remains to this day one of the most unsane films one viewer can see. For that very same reason, I'm unable to like it much, since it repels me; yet I cannot ignore its evident importance. And those who believe the original Sade work is any better, go to hell.

Mamma Roma - 7
Oedipus Rex - 6.5
Teorema - 8
Porcile - 6.5
Medea - 6
Il Decameron - 7.5
The Canterbury Tales - 7
Salò - 6.5

Never been the biggest fan, but I considerabily respect the man for his interest on classics and literary tradition. Also, check out his writings, specially the poetry.

[Ezee E]

It's about the continual dehumanization process during war times, how a society can willingly subject (and subjugate) their brothers and sisters to the worst extremities. And how that same society can derive pleasure from the systematic torture of others, finding the brutality akin to a sexual release, to an orgy of delight. Is it artfully presented? Cinematically it is pretty damn immaculate, yes. Is it often static and belaboring? Yes. And I think that is wholly intentional.

This reads very well, but I just don't see it in the movie I saw.

[Derek]

This reads very well, but I just don't see it in the movie I saw.

I don't know how you can miss it. It's not even hidden in the sub-text.

[Derek]

I don't understand this. Bertolucci's 1900 is about fascism, but isn't completely vile and unpleasant throughout its runtime, and has characters who are sympathetic and likeable. Why shouldn't a movie about fascism be likeable?

Of course you can have likable characters in a film about fascism, but it strikes me as odd and extremely wrong-minded to demand it from this film's approach to fascism.

[Spinal]

The Gospel According to St. Matthew - 6.5
Oedipus Rex - 5
Teorema - 9
Salo - 8.5

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Accattone - 8.5
Mamma Roma - 9.5
La Ricotta - 6
Teorema - 7
Salo - 5

[Yxklyx]

Accattone - 7
Mamma Roma - 8
The Hawks and the Sparrows - 4
Teorema - 8

[baby doll]

I don't understand this. Bertolucci's 1900 is about fascism, but isn't completely vile and unpleasant throughout its runtime, and has characters who are sympathetic and likeable. Why shouldn't a movie about fascism be likeable?But the Donald Sutherland character is vile and unpleasant, unsympathetic and unlikeable in just about every scene in which he appears.

[Mysterious Dude]

But the Donald Sutherland character is vile and unpleasant, unsympathetic and unlikeable in just about every scene in which he appears.
True, but the film has other scenes. And even though it's five hours long, it doesn't devote any of its runtime to shit-eating (that I can recall). No contest.

[origami_mustache]

Accattone - 8
Mamma Roma - 9.5
Ro.Go.Pa.G. - "La Ricotta" - 9
The Hawks and the Sparrows - 6
Oedipus Rex - 5
Teorema - 8
Porcile -8
Salo, or the 120 Days of Sodom - 7

[baby doll]

True, but the film has other scenes. And even though it's five hours long, it doesn't devote any of its runtime to shit-eating (that I can recall). No contest.That's why Pasolini is the mento, and Bertolucci the manatee.

[B-side]

I have Arabian Nights to watch. Possibly tonight.

[Boner M]

Oh shit, I realised I've seen Mamma Roma only a few years ago and rated it fairly highly despite not remembering much about it outside of Magnini's performance. I'll give it the benefit of a doubt for now...

Mamma Roma - 7.5

[dreamdead]

It's a bit too simplistic to contend that Pasolini merely photographed Matthew's Gospel word for word, as I've seen some reviewers argue. Though it's framed with an eye toward neorealism, and the film garners a lot of its strength from this artistic method, there are several moments that possess an iconic quality to them, even though they may be understated visually. Some of the walking on water shots look so painterly that they gain value through their deference to long-shot photography. And though the scenes of Jesus preaching are largely tied to Matthew's reading, there are some nice achievements in orchestrating the sense that children follow him around everywhere. And lest one not state it directly, Pasolini none too covertly suggests some of the radical ideology that Jesus's preaching possesses, and it's no small wonder to read those moments as a political message. However, though Pasolini does not focus on the crucifixion, it resounds quite powerfully in this imagining. A wonderful film.

[dreamdead]

I'm away from the interwebs for the next several days, so early posting of Pasolini's results...

Results:
Mamma Roma 8.3182 (11)
The Gospel According to St. Matthew – 7.9090 (11)
Accattone - 7.833 (6)
Teorema – 7.5455 (11)
The Decameron 7.25 (4)
Oedipus Rex - 6.6667 (6)
Hawks and Sparrows - 6.6428 (7)
Salo – 6.1364 (11)
=7.2877

Did not Qualify:
La Riccota – 7.5 (2)
Porcile – 6.8333 (3)
The Canterbury Tales – 6.75 (2)
Medea – 6.25 (2)
Arabian Nights – 5.5 (1)

People who don’t like films where characters make others eat shit: Antoine, Ezee E
People who do: Spinal, dreamdead, balmakboor, Derek

[Mysterious Dude]

I fell asleep trying to watch Teorema last night.

I'm still interested in his adaptations of ancient literature that I haven't seen yet (Medea, The Canterbury Tales and Arabian Nights). I've usually liked him when working in that genre.

[dreamdead]

I fell asleep trying to watch Teorema last night.


Yeah, the experience is mighty dreary. The scenes with the maid have a nice melancholic attitude and achieve some approximation of purity that is nicely realized. However, though the other scenarios are necessary to draw out Pasolini's thesis, the rest of the character arcs, if they can indeed be suggested to arc, are tedious and understood early on. Though Pasolini does not dwell on points here all that long, the entire experience feels weighted down by too much unstated ideology.

[Spinal]

I like Teorema lots. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/2006/10/teorema-pasolini-1968.html)

[Qrazy]

I like Teorema lots. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/2006/10/teorema-pasolini-1968.html)

Check out Porcile.

[Spinal]

Check out Porcile.

Will do.

[dreamdead]

I like Teorema lots. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/2006/10/teorema-pasolini-1968.html)

You know, I don't discount most of your assertions in that review. The basic premise is undeniably simple, and the film charts each individual throughout, allowing each interpretation the same weight as the next, so that we can recognize Stamp's character as a prophet, as an aesthetics disciple, as an agent of primal sexuality, and as pure chaos. Yet this kind of exercise doesn't depend entirely on Pasolini necessarily privileging one reading over the others so much as it depends on the entire exercise offering more in the way of some kind of epiphany--so that each interpretation doesn't become weighted down with the tedium of tracing each interpretation, where it feels like empty signifiers signifying nothing to me.

As a premise I enjoy it; as a reality it becomes monotonous quickly.