Match Cut Director Consensus - David Fincher

[Ezee E]

http://www.ramasscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/fincher_big.jpg

Too cool for you.

Easy copy and paste:

Alien 3
Seven
The Game
Fight Club
Panic Room
Zodiac
Curious Case of Benjamin Button

[Ezee E]

Alien 3 - 7.5
Seven - 10
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 10
Panic Room - 9
Zodiac - 9
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 4

[Melville]

Alien 3 - 3 (though I don't remember it very well)
Seven - 6
The Game - 6.5
Fight Club - 3.5
Panic Room - 7
Zodiac - 8
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6

[Raiders]

Alien 3 (1992) 5.0
Se7en (1995) 7.5
The Game (1997) 8.0
Fight Club (1999) 5.0
Panic Room (2002) 3.0
Zodiac (2007) 8.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (2008) 5.5

[Spinal]

Alien 3 - 7.5
Seven - 9
The Game - 5.5
Fight Club - 7.5
Panic Room - 6
Zodiac - 7
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 4

[Pop Trash]

Se7en -8
The Game -9
Fight Club -7
Panic Room -6
Zodiac -8
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button -6

I've seen Alien 3 but don't remember it well enough to rate it. It's funny because pre Fight Club, I used to be a big defender of Fincher (especially The Game) but lately I think he's gotten too overrated.

[Sycophant]

Fight Club - 7.5
Zodiac - 9.0

[Kurosawa Fan]

Alien 3 - 4.0
Seven - 9.0
The Game - 5.5
Fight Club - 8.0
Panic Room - 3.0
Zodiac - 9.5
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6.0

[The Mike]

Alien 3 - 7
Seven - 9.5
The Game - 10
Fight Club - 6.5
Panic Room - 6.5
Zodiac - 9.5

[Yxklyx]

Alien 3 - 5
Se7en - 10
The Game - 6
Fight Club - 8
Panic Room - 6
Zodiac - 7
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 2

[Stay Puft]

Alien 3 - 7
Fight Club - 5
Panic Room - 5
Zodiac - 8
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5

[megladon8]

Alien 3 - 8
Se7en - 10
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 7.5
Panic Room - 6.5

[Dead & Messed Up]

Alien 3 - 6.5
Seven - 9.5
Fight Club - 7.0
Panic Room - 7.0
Zodiac - 9.0

[Watashi]

Se7en - 10
Fight Club - 8.5
Panic Room - 4
Zodiac - 9.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7.5

[D_Davis]

Alien 3 - 6
Seven - 9
The Game - 10
Fight Club - 8
Panic Room - 2
Zodiac - 9.5

[Mysterious Dude]

Seven - 9
The Game - 7.5
Fight Club - 10
Panic Room - 6.5
Zodiac - 9

[chrisnu]

Seven - 9
Fight Club - 9
Panic Room - 6
Zodiac - 9
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5.5

[MadMan]

Alien 3(1992)-7.5
The Game(1997)-8.0
Fight Club(1999)-10.0
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button(2008)-9.5

Probably should finally get around to seeing Seven and Zodiac. I like to procrastinate :P

Overall, from what I've seen he's a really good director. I like that he went outside of his comfort zone to make "Button." Judging from the scores for that movie in this thread, I may be the only one.

[jamaul]

Alien 3: 4.5
Se7en: 9.5
The Game: 8.0
Fight Club: 10.0
Panic Room: 8.0
Zodiac: 10.0
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button: 9.5

[Bosco B Thug]

Alright, that's it, I'm seeing Fight Club this week.

[megladon8]

Three people haven't seen Se7en?

That's one too many, times three!

:frustrated:

[Grouchy]

Alien 3 - 8
Seven - 9
Fight Club - 10
Zodiac - 10
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5

[MacGuffin]

Seven - 9
The Game - 6
Fight Club - 7
Panic Room - 6
Zodiac - 8
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6

[Spinal]

When I refer to Se7en in conversation, I'm going to start pronouncing it phonetically. Like, "Hey, have you seen Seh-seven-en?"

[MacGuffin]

When I refer to Se7en in conversation, I'm going to start pronouncing it phonetically. Like, "Hey, have you seen Seh-seven-en?"

Yeah, I hate that. Why couldn't they just have called the movie The Seven Deadly Sins or something? Edit: Supposedly, that was the working title. They should have kept it.

[megladon8]

What's wrong with it being called Seven (Se7en is just how it's written on posters and stuff, and I think it looks neat)?

I think The Seven Deadly Sins would have been pretty lame.

[soitgoes...]

Alien³ (1992) - 5.0
Se7en (1995) - 9.0
The Game (1997) - 7.5
Fight Club (1999) - 9.0
Panic Room (2002) - 5.0
Zodiac (2007) - 8.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (2008) - 7.0

[Sycophant]

Three people haven't seen Se7en?

That's one too many, times three!

:frustrated:

I saw the opening credits like twice in film classes. Maybe that counts for something?

[MacGuffin]

I saw the opening credits like twice in film classes. Maybe that counts for something?

The opening credits are damn good, and inspired by Stan Brakhage's The Act of Seeing With One's Own Eyes for what it is worth.

[transmogrifier]

Alien 3 - 8.5
Seven - 10
The Game - 8
Fight Club - 9
Panic Room - 7
Zodiac - 8
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7

[The Mike]

The Game - 10
*high-five*

[Silencio]

Alien 3 - 3
Seven - 9.5
The Game - 4
Fight Club - 7
Panic Room - 5.5
Zodiac - 9.5
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 8.5

[D_Davis]

*high-five*

The Game is awesome. Yes, you have to TOTALLY suspend your disbelief, but as a strange kind of urban fantasy everything works wonderfully.

[Ezee E]

Yeah, Seven Deadly Sins would be an awful title.

[Boner M]

Seven - 9
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 7.5
Panic Room - 3.5
Zodiac - 9.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7.5

[Raiders]

The Game is awesome. Yes, you have to TOTALLY suspend your disbelief, but as a strange kind of urban fantasy everything works wonderfully.

If it wasn't for that godawful ending, it would easily be at the top of my Fincher list. I had written extensively on the old site, but I'm thinking of re-watching it and writing about it all over again. I think it is his most interesting film by quite the margin.

[baby doll]

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (2008) [5]
Fight Club (1999) [6]
Freedom 90 [music video for George Michaels] (1990) [7]

You got to give what you take.

[MacGuffin]

Soori, I can't believe you've never seen Seven or Zodiac. That's just ludicrous, yo!

[Spinal]

Freedom 90 [music video for George Michaels] (1990) [7]

You got to give what you take.

Good video.

[baby doll]

Soori, I can't believe you've never seen Seven or Zodiac. That's just ludicrous, yo!What do you want from me? I just saw The Graduate two days ago!

[MacGuffin]

What do you want from me? I just saw The Graduate two days ago!

Oh, I don't like that movie.

[trotchky]

Se7en - 10
The Game - been too long
Fight Club - 10
Zodiac - 9
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - walkout

[trotchky]

Oh, I don't like that movie.

I think Hello Heino said it best when he said, "It's no American Beauty."

[balmakboor]

Seven - 9
The Game - 6
Fight Club - 6
Zodiac - 9
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 8

[trotchky]

I'll see Panic Room and The Game before this is over. Maybe Curious Case if I'm feeling patient.

[dreamdead]

Seven - 9
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 7.5
Panic Room - 4
Zodiac - 8
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5

Recent track record is suggesting a drop-off, but for awhile there he was one of my favorites...

[megladon8]

I'm finding the backlash against Benjamin Button on here to be a little odd.

[Ezee E]

While most people talk about The Game being the fun and wild movie of his, I say its Panic Room. Is it an adult version of Home Alone? Maybe. But it's the visual trickery and the better use of the house that makes the movie incredibly enjoyable for me.

[MacGuffin]

I'm finding the backlash against Benjamin Button on here to be a little odd.

I'm not. It's watchable the whole way through and looks pretty good, but it's terribly superficial.

[Ezee E]

I'm finding the backlash against Benjamin Button on here to be a little odd.
Button wasn't well-received on here to begin with, other then the noteworthy visuals and special effects.

[Melville]

While most people talk about The Game being the fun and wild movie of his, I say its Panic Room. Is it an adult version of Home Alone? Maybe. But it's the visual trickery and the better use of the house that makes the movie incredibly enjoyable for me.
I thought it was just hilarious in its ridiculousness. I'm not sure if that humor was intentional, but it was definitely fun.

[Melville]

Button wasn't well-received on here to begin with, other then the noteworthy visuals and special effects.
It wasn't even that well received in general. It's only got 73% on the tomatometer.

[Ezee E]

I thought it was just hilarious in its ridiculousness. I'm not sure if that humor was intentional, but it was definitely fun.
Definitely intentional. Jared Leto is the comic relief in the movie, and most of the ridiculousness involves him.

[Melville]

Definitely intentional. Jared Leto is the comic relief in the movie, and most of the ridiculousness involves him.
I thought the funniest part was the shovel-to-the face at the end (I can't remember if that was Leto or Yoakam), by which point the movie had veered into complete Home Alone levels of ridiculousness. But the contrast between Fincher's dark visual style and the ridiculous narrative made the whole thing pretty funny in my eyes.

[Pop Trash]

Button wasn't well-received on here to begin with, other then the noteworthy visuals and special effects.

Which Soori and I had a debate about on another thread. He seemed to think it didn't even look that good or in his estimation looked like any other "Oscar bait" movie (which I disagree with)

[Raiders]

While most people talk about The Game being the fun and wild movie of his, I say its Panic Room. Is it an adult version of Home Alone? Maybe. But it's the visual trickery and the better use of the house that makes the movie incredibly enjoyable for me.

I think The Game is much more interesting than just being "wild" and "fun." I also find it hard to believe that the hilarity of Panic Room was intentional and the rest of it is just lame. Honestly, the most memorable thing about it was Fincher giving us an out-of-nowhere expose on the inner-workings of a flashlight. I really just kind of hated it once it ended.

[Pop Trash]

While most people talk about The Game being the fun and wild movie of his, I say its Panic Room. Is it an adult version of Home Alone? Maybe. But it's the visual trickery and the better use of the house that makes the movie incredibly enjoyable for me.

Eh, it just seemed like a loose remake of Wait Until Dark to me. Plus, I get tired of Jodie Foster playing these "strong woman fighting against tyrannical men" roles. It's like we get it Jodie, you're a feminist.

I do remember it having a pretty awesome title sequence though.

[Ezee E]

Eh, it just seemed like a loose remake of Wait Until Dark to me. Plus, I get tired of Jodie Foster playing these "strong woman fighting against tyrannical men" roles. It's like we get it Jodie, you're a feminist.

I do remember it having a pretty awesome title sequence though.
Originally it was Nicole Kidman, with about half the film with her in the can, until she hurt (fractured I believe) her leg while doing Moulin Rouge, and they had to start all over again.

[Pop Trash]

Originally it was Nicole Kidman, with about half the film with her in the can, until she hurt (fractured I believe) her leg while doing Moulin Rouge, and they had to start all over again.

Well that would be different at least.

[D_Davis]

Panic Room is a completely flaccid experience, and unthrilling thriller. It's only redeeming quality is Dwight Yoakam's performance.

[Melville]

Well that would be different at least.
It seems like it would be much worse. If Kidman were in the role, it would seem like she's in real danger. With Foster in the role, it seems like Jared Leto is in danger. Kidman would have made the film seem more like a straight thriller; Foster makes it more pulpy fun.

[Pop Trash]

It seems like it would be much worse. If Kidman were in the role, it would seem like she's in real danger. With Foster in the role, it seems like Jared Leto is in danger. Kidman would have made the film seem more like a straight thriller; Foster makes it more pulpy fun.

Perhaps, and maybe I'm rejudging it retroactively, because, looking back at her resume at IMDB, between Silence of the Lambs and Panic Room she didn't really do many "tough woman fights back against creepy men" type roles. It was only after Panic Room that she did Flightplan, The Brave One, and the very random role in Inside Man.

But seriously Jodie, we get it.

[B-side]

Se7en- 7.5
Fight Club- 8
Zodiac- 8.5

[Weeping_Guitar]

Zodiac - 7.5
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 8.5

[Ivan Drago]

Alien 3 3.0
Seven 7.5
Fight Club 9.0
Panic Room 6.0
Zodiac 4.0
Curious Case of Benjamin Button 9.0

[origami_mustache]

Se7en (1995) - 8
The Game (1997) - 6
Fight Club (1999) - 8
Panic Room (2002) - 4
Zodiac (2007) - 6.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (2008) - 7

[Duncan]

Seven - 7.5
Fight Club - 4.0
Panic Room - 4.0
Zodiac - 9.0
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7.5

[right_for_the_moment]

Seven - 6
The Game - 5
Panic Room - 4
Zodiac - 8
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6

seen the other two, but its been way too long

[Sxottlan]

Alien 3: 5
Seven: 10
The Game: 8
Fight Club: 9.5
Panic Room: 9
Zodiac: 10
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button: 9

One of my favorite directors working today. What is he doing next?

[Qrazy]

Alien 3: 5.5
Seven: 9
The Game: 6
Fight Club: 8.5
Panic Room: 6.5
Zodiac: 8.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button: 7.5

[Qrazy]

What's wrong with it being called Seven (Se7en is just how it's written on posters and stuff, and I think it looks neat)?

I think The Seven Deadly Sins would have been pretty lame.

Se7en for me is the number in the title exception that proves the rule (that they usually suck). I like it as well.

[Qrazy]

If it wasn't for that godawful ending, it would easily be at the top of my Fincher list. I had written extensively on the old site, but I'm thinking of re-watching it and writing about it all over again.

Agree.


I think it is his most interesting film by quite the margin.

Don't agree.

[Qrazy]

Seven - 9
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 7.5
Panic Room - 4
Zodiac - 8
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5

Recent track record is suggesting a drop-off, but for awhile there he was one of my favorites...

Ehh... I think it's more that follows the Star Trek paradigm. His even numbered films are best.

[Ivan Drago]

Curious Case of Benjamin Button - walkout

Say whaaaaaat?

[dreamdead]

Also....

Cold Hearted Snake (Paula Abdul video) - 5

Positives: Abdul's outfit and obvious choreographed sexuality when such material wasn't yet commonplace. Negatives: a rather lame song.

[trotchky]

Say whaaaaaat?

It bored the hell out of me.

Fight Club's ending is so massively different from the book's that it leaves the viewer with a completely different message. As great as the movie is, it really doesn't gel with the themes of Palahniuk's novel and his bibliography overall (especially his recent Pygmy, which is a rebuttal, of sorts, to Fight Club).

[EyesWideOpen]

Seven: 9
The Game: 9.5
Fight Club: 10
Panic Room: 7
Zodiac: 9
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button: 8

[Qrazy]

It bored the hell out of me.

Fight Club's ending is so massively different from the book's that it leaves the viewer with a completely different message. As great as the movie is, it really doesn't gel with the themes of Palahniuk's novel and his bibliography overall (especially his recent Pygmy, which is a rebuttal, of sorts, to Fight Club).

How does the book end?

[StanleyK]

Se7en - 10
The Game - 5.5
Fight Club - 9
Panic Room - 7
Zodiac - 7.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 4.5

[thefourthwall]

Express Yourself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vCDHFneEs) - 9
Cold Hearted Snake (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN-Qq2umKZo) - 7.5
Se7en - 9
Fight Club - 9
Panic Room - 6
Zodiac - 7
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7

[dreamdead]

Just to see if others rate the music videos...

Express Yourself (Madonna) - 7.5
Only (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgt_WDjbO0o) (Nine Inch Nails) - 6

[soitgoes...]

I hope that music videos aren't being included, and that it is all in good fun.

[thefourthwall]

I thought we included music videos for Landis...

[soitgoes...]

I thought we included music videos for Landis...
I wasn't keen on that either, but I'm just one lone voice.

[Qrazy]

I agree that they shouldn't be included as they will skew results.

[Ezee E]

Music videos won't count here.

For Landis, I counted "Thriller" because it's probably one of the most (if not, the most) important music videos out there.

[trotchky]

How does the book end?
Jack ends up in a hospital staffed by disciples of project mayhem. He has failed at thwarting the revolution he inadvertently started and its mechanisms are now out of his control. It's implied that he's going to be kept in the hospital indefinitely so he can't threaten further actions of the revolutionaries.

Also, from what I remember, there is no reconciliation with Marla; or if there is, it's much less significant than it is in the movie and it ultimately amounts to nothing.

[MacGuffin]

Is the book better than the movie, trotchky?

[trotchky]

Is the book better than the movie, trotchky?

They're both excellent in their own rights. For all their thematic differences Fincher's film does a fantastic job of translating Palahniuk's sick, smirking poetry and relentless turns of phrase, making the film just as much of a furious joy to watch as the book is to read. I think this is one instance where book and film complement each other spectacularly well, and together form a stronger overarching statement than either one does separately. I almost find it difficult to separate the two at this point, as they both had an enormous impact on how I viewed the world and myself in relation to it.

[MacGuffin]

They're both excellent in their own rights. For all their thematic differences Fincher's film does a fantastic job of translating Palahniuk's sick, smirking poetry and relentless turns of phrase, making the film just as much of a furious joy to watch as the book is to read. I think this is one instance where book and film complement each other spectacularly well, and together form a stronger overarching statement than either one does separately. I almost find it difficult to separate the two at this point, as they both had an enormous impact on how I viewed the world and myself in relation to it.

I've put down so many of his books. They just all read the same: like Fight Club style prose over and over with different plots.

[Ezee E]

I've put down so many of his books. They just all read the same: like Fight Club style prose over and over with different plots.
Pretty much, although it was good for a while until he ran out of plot twists.

[Rowland]

Alien 3 - 8.0
Seven - 8.5
The Game - been too long
Fight Club - 9.0
Panic Room - 5.0
Zodiac - 8.0

[trotchky]

I've put down so many of his books. They just all read the same: like Fight Club style prose over and over with different plots.

Fight Club's prose tops them all, in my opinion; nothing he's written can compare to the sheer ferocity and pin-point observations of working class malaise in Chapter 6 of that book. The rest of his novels, with the exception of Pygmy, are all written in the same voice, which is vaguely like Fight Club's only ten times more obnoxious and ten times less clever and insightful. Haunted was good though; it was the only book where I felt like he pushed his "gross out" proclivities to the absolute extreme rather than pussyfooting around.

[Bosco B Thug]

Had a Fincher night last night. Might fit in The Game before Sunday. Fincher's certainly a very talented and perceptive director, I came to the conclusion.

But I'm honestly surprised by the consistently very high marks for Se7en. Can I ask what people find particularly exceptional about the film?

It's certainly immaculately made, elegant, and has the distinction of its pronounced humanist themes, but Andrew Kevin Walker's screenplay I found broad, formulaic, flat and obvious, while Fincher's directing hasn't quite developed its most detailed, deliberate, and observant qualities.

I expected to reject Fight Club, but it's so dense and sprawling without Fincher forgetting to be detailed and observant and visually expressive regarding his characters' interior experience and emotions. It also has the visual wit and eccentricity of a freewheelin' 70s flick. Haven't really given much thought to the story, or what that twist really adds to it, but Fincher really knew what he was doing with every beat of this one.

[Pop Trash]

Were those first time views Bosco?

[Bosco B Thug]

Were those first time views Bosco?
Oh, Fight Club, definitely yes. For Se7en, I'd seen seen it once earlier this decade, but that's so long ago this probably counts as a first viewing.

[Pop Trash]

Oh, Fight Club, definitely yes. For Se7en, I'd seen seen it once earlier this decade, but that's so long ago this probably counts as a first viewing.

Interesting. I need to watch some of those 90s "classics" again myself. I usually rate them based on my memory of them in high school or early college and my taste and maturity is a bit more refined now (I hope) I do remember seeing Se7en when it was first in theaters (during my HS years) and being pretty shocked that a Hollywood movie was that grungy/disturbing, but I don't think it's the unimpeachable classic that people make it out to be.

[Raiders]

Had a Fincher night last night. Might fit in The Game before Sunday. Fincher's certainly a very talented and perceptive director, I came to the conclusion.

But I'm honestly surprised by the consistently very high marks for Se7en. Can I ask what people find particularly exceptional about the film?

It's certainly immaculately made, elegant, and has the distinction of its pronounced humanist themes, but Andrew Kevin Walker's screenplay I found broad, formulaic, flat and obvious, while Fincher's directing hasn't quite developed its most detailed, deliberate, and observant qualities.

I think you are undervaluing the effect of its craft, which is for the most part pretty immaculate, as you note. The tone and visuals in pretty much each scene are perfectly matched, and Fincher nails here, much as he did in Zodiac, the helplessness of a serial killer case. For all their desire and emotion (Mills) and education (Somerset), neither is really able to capture the criminal. I think of the scene with the metronome and Somerset, used most immediately as a sleeping device in a corrupt, sleepless city, but also as a counter for the inevitability of the killer's next victim and the way the evil just sort of drones on, uninterrupted by the attempts of police.

I actually find the ending, where I suspect many fall in love with its plot and twist, to be the downfall in me fully embracing it. Unlike the Coens' No Country for Old Men which, for all its nihilism, merely concluded that violence, like death, is an elemental part of life and winsome old men are best to remember that, Fincher's film seems to push back against the very notion of even trying to solve any crime. Or at least it seemed to almost acknowledge that perhaps John Doe's quest was indeed divinely inspired. How else to reconcile such a depraved and seemingly hopeless conclusion? Fincher almost seems to himself play God with the petty little humans running around his grungy little city, only to deny them even the most basic human satisfaction. It's just about technically a perfectly composed film, but it has no heart or pulse of human concern and by the end has squashed all emotion into a numb feeling of defeatism.

[Qrazy]

I actually find the ending, where I suspect many fall in love with its plot and twist, to be the downfall in me fully embracing it. Unlike the Coens' No Country for Old Men which, for all its nihilism, merely concluded that violence, like death, is an elemental part of life and winsome old men are best to remember that, Fincher's film seems to push back against the very notion of even trying to solve any crime. Or at least it seemed to almost acknowledge that perhaps John Doe's quest was indeed divinely inspired. How else to reconcile such a depraved and seemingly hopeless conclusion? Fincher almost seems to himself play God with the petty little humans running around his grungy little city, only to deny them even the most basic human satisfaction. It's just about technically a perfectly composed film, but it has no heart or pulse of human concern and by the end has squashed all emotion into a numb feeling of defeatism.

Don't really agree with that at all, posted extended thoughts in relation to the ending of the film in the Film Discussion thread a while back but to recap in brief... the film does not endorse Doe's quest as divinely inspired because he does not (as he purports to) kill only sinners. Mills wife and unborn child were not sinners. Furthermore although Somerset was defeated this time he does not end up retiring as he initially planned to and the film suggests that he stays on the force... 'I'll be around'. He also specifies that 'the world is worth fighting for'... both because that is the general conclusion he comes to over the philosophical battle he has with himself over the course of the film but also practically because he and Mills made a difference in John Doe's plan. Because he was found out Doe had to amend his plan (and potentially invalidate it by killing an innocent) and Doe does not get off scott free by film's end. Even though Doe did win the battle in a sense Somerset believes and rightly so that pursuing him was still the correct thing to do... even when you lose you have to fight on. There will be other John Doe's and other battles.

No Country for Old Men on the other hand seemed to conclude it wasn't even worth struggling against serial killers.

[Bosco B Thug]

I think you are undervaluing the effect of its craft, which is for the most part pretty immaculate, as you note. The tone and visuals in pretty much each scene are perfectly matched, and Fincher nails here, much as he did in Zodiac, the helplessness of a serial killer case. For all their desire and emotion (Mills) and education (Somerset), neither is really able to capture the criminal. I think of the scene with the metronome and Somerset, used most immediately as a sleeping device in a corrupt, sleepless city, but also as a counter for the inevitability of the killer's next victim and the way the evil just sort of drones on, uninterrupted by the attempts of police. It has expert cinematography, sure, but I felt the script depended on broad strokes and Fincher isn't being as visually creative and sensitive here as he is in his other films, nuance being left to overly composed shots of Mills getting into bed with his wife or Somerset throwing that metronome across the room. There is nothing as embedded into the texture of the film and as striking as the very subtle teases of 4th-wall breaking that go on throughout Fight Club. Nor is there in Seven a scene as expertly staged and shaped as the hand & lye scene in Fight Club (Seven's library scene a possible exception, despite its labored music video quality).

The first half of Seven is better because it utilizes Fincher's knack for visual irony and moments of levity, which are prominent as the film builds Mills and Somerset's relationship and personalities. But the characters just get flatter and flatter, and the film lazier and more ludicrous, as it goes along. The "cross off and move on" nature of the script and its murders was uninspired structure for me to begin with, so the way it so concisely checks off the last two tortures cemented how mechanical I felt the script is. And the ending...


I actually find the ending, where I suspect many fall in love with its plot and twist, to be the downfall in me fully embracing it. Unlike the Coens' No Country for Old Men which, for all its nihilism, merely concluded that violence, like death, is an elemental part of life and winsome old men are best to remember that, Fincher's film seems to push back against the very notion of even trying to solve any crime. Or at least it seemed to almost acknowledge that perhaps John Doe's quest was indeed divinely inspired. How else to reconcile such a depraved and seemingly hopeless conclusion? Fincher almost seems to himself play God with the petty little humans running around his grungy little city, only to deny them even the most basic human satisfaction. It's just about technically a perfectly composed film, but it has no heart or pulse of human concern and by the end has squashed all emotion into a numb feeling of defeatism. I don't like the ending either. First of all, I found it more than a little gimmicky, although that's a bit unfounded. I found it more than a bit arbitrary. Really, a SPOILER in a box of a character we really should have seen more of?

I like what Qrazy says in his post that John Doe has been driven to inane logic and delusions of a "masterpiece," but Fincher doesn't do enough with the material to sufficiently convey ambiguity here; he's just cruising off the inherent cruelty of the ending, the only inspired aspect about the ending scene being the aerial viewfinder shots from the helicopter and the only nuance being in the sound design, in the occasional piping in of the removed helicopter crew.

[Ezee E]

RESULTS:
1. Seven - 8.87 (35)
2. Zodiac - 8.45 (37)
3. Fight Club - 7.86 (37)
4. The Game - 7.17 (27)
5. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6.56 (31)
6. Alien 3 - 5.93 (21)
7. Panic Room - 5.66 (32)

= 7.37

First to note the strange use of Seven's Se7en title - Spinal
First to note the strange use of 3 on Alien 3 - none

Biggest turnout yet. Awesome.

[Yxklyx]

First to note the strange use of Seven's Se7en title - Spinal


:) I just go by what IMDB says.

[Peng]

The Social Network - 9
Fight Club - 8.5
Gone Girl - 8.5
Zodiac - 8.5
Panic Room - 8
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - 8
Seven - 7.5
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 7
Alien 3 - 6.5
The Game - 6.5

Been way too long since I have seen Fight Club, Seven, and The Game though.

[transmogrifier]

Alien 3 is a great movie.

[Irish]

Alien 3 is a great movie.

Statements like this are rep-bait for me.

(I dunno if I'd describe it as a great movie -- I'd probably go with a more cynical "spectacular failure but goddamn spectacular." It's definitely more interesting on the page and on the screen than any of the other "Alien" movies.)

[Skitch]

It is great. Fincher goes against every trope of what the sequel playbook says to do. It does suffers from dodgy CGI though.

[Melville]

Alien 3 - 3 (though I don't remember it very well)
Seven - 6
The Game - 6.5
Fight Club - 3.5
Panic Room - 7
Zodiac - 8
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6
The Social Network - 5
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - 5.5
Gone Girl - 4
It seems I'm not a fan. I'm surprised I gave Benjamin Button a 6.

[baby doll]

Soori, I can't believe you've never seen Seven or Zodiac. That's just ludicrous, yo!I've now seen both (and a couple others). My revised Fincher ratings, excluding the music videos:

Se7en (1995) [8]
The Game (1997) [6]
Fight Club (1999) [7]
Zodiac (2007) [6]
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (2008) [4]
The Social Network (2010) [6]
The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (2011) [5]
Gone Girl (2014) [6]

[StanleyK]

Statements like this are rep-bait for me.

(I dunno if I'd describe it as a great movie -- I'd probably go with a more cynical "spectacular failure but goddamn spectacular." It's definitely more interesting on the page and on the screen than any of the other "Alien" movies.)

Alien 3 is one crappy movie. I saw the extended cut and it's even worse than the theatrical. I'd like to know how you see it as more interesting than Aliens, pretty much the most entertaining movie I've seen.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Alien 3 - 6.5
Seven - 9.5
Fight Club - 7.0
Panic Room - 7.0
Zodiac - 9.0

I was so damn young!

Ehrm...

Seven - A
Zodiac - A
The Social Network - A-
Fight Club - B+
Gone Girl - B+
The Game - B
Panic Room - B
Alien 3 - C+

[Ezee E]

THEN:


Alien 3 - 7.5
Seven - 10
The Game - 7
Fight Club - 10
Panic Room - 9
Zodiac - 9
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 4

NOW:

Alien 3 - 6 (Bad CGI has really hurt this over time)
Seven - 10 (Still a perfect horror movie to me. One of my favorite movies period.)
The Game - 7 (Flawed for sure, with a rather shitty ending, but it's sure fun to get there)
Fight Club - 8.5 (Starting to show some more relevance again, oddly enough)
Panic Room - 9.5 (Similar to The Game, but a better ending. Kristen Stewart, lol)
Zodiac - 10 (Gets better each time I watch.)
Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 6 (Not as bad as what I remember)
Social Network - 10
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - 8
Gone Girl - 9

One of my favorite directors there is. I'll see anything he does.

[Irish]

Alien 3 is one crappy movie. I saw the extended cut and it's even worse than the theatrical. I'd like to know how you see it as more interesting than Aliens, pretty much the most entertaining movie I've seen.

It's sorta a long story, but "Alien 3" is one of my favorite "bad movies with good ideas." I like what it attempted to do. (I'm not making a corollary between "interesting" and "entertaining." Cameron's "Aliens" is one of the best action/adventure/thrillers of its period, but I know its beats too well, find the ending contrived, and am bored by large patches of it. Like any good thriller viewed too often, "Aliens" doesn't give me anything to think about. I put on the "Alien 3" Assembly Cut, and there's lots to think about, not the least of which is "Wow, this is so great and boy did they fuck up [this scene].")

[Irish]

Also, total aside, but I love that this image has become the icon for the entire franchise, and it's a from a movie people dislike:


http://i.imgur.com/S9YzOuf.jpg?1

[Ezee E]

Also, total aside, but I love that this image has become the icon for the entire franchise, and it's a from a movie people dislike:


http://i.imgur.com/S9YzOuf.jpg?1


That is a fantastic image to represent everything about that universe. I remember seeing the trailer forever ago and thinking it would be the best movie EVER because I think it ended on that image.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Alien 3 - 6 (Bad CGI has really hurt this over time)

One of the weird ironies of Alien 3 is that people criticize the "bad CGI" when the alien was actually a rod puppet against greenscreen; there's only one shot in the film where the alien is in fact aided with CGI.

Now, that doesn't mean the complaint is invalid, exactly, but it's a complaint about lighting and compositing.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Normally I'd be with Irish on the whole "grand folly" vs. "proficient adequacy" debate, but I have too much damn fun with Aliens. I enjoy the dialogue, the characters, so many of the set-pieces, and Weaver's performance. It's not deep, but it functions to me like a Shawshank or Goodfellas Saturday afternoon movie, where if I'm passing a TV and see it on cable, I want to stop and watch the next good moment and get back to what I was doing. But then I just want to watch the next good moment after that. (Like, how can you watch Paxton's leveling-up last stand and then not want to watch the bit where Vasquez and Gorman sacrifice themselves? And at that point you're already so close to Ripley suiting up in the elevator. It's not like the cupboard needs fixing today anyway.)

And there's a part of me that really bristles at how much Alien 3 brings down Ripley as a character. I get what they were chasing, but it was too excessive, she was too passive, she was too eager to kill herself, and when there's a major character speech about dying on your feet in the third act, it pisses me off that the speech goes to one of the prisoners instead of her. That she isn't allowed more meaningful development. At some point, the film - to me - crosses over from misconceived but admirable subversion into needlessly grueling middle finger.

[StanleyK]

It's sorta a long story, but "Alien 3" is one of my favorite "bad movies with good ideas." I like what it attempted to do. (I'm not making a corollary between "interesting" and "entertaining." Cameron's "Aliens" is one of the best action/adventure/thrillers of its period, but I know its beats too well, find the ending contrived, and am bored by large patches of it. Like any good thriller viewed too often, "Aliens" doesn't give me anything to think about. I put on the "Alien 3" Assembly Cut, and there's lots to think about, not the least of which is "Wow, this is so great and boy did they fuck up [this scene].")

Yeah, I see what you mean. I didn't like what they were going for personally, and the extended cut just felt like more of a bad movie(I thought the inmate going crazy and releasing the alien was particularly egregious). Conversely, Aliens has held up extremely well; I thought the extended edition was an improvement, the pacing didn't slack one bit, and I still think the ending is perfect.

[StanleyK]

One of the weird ironies of Alien 3 is that people criticize the "bad CGI" when the alien was actually a rod puppet against greenscreen; there's only one shot in the film where the alien is in fact aided with CGI.

Now, that doesn't mean the complaint is invalid, exactly, but it's a complaint about lighting and compositing.

Is this true for both the theatrical and the extended cuts? I seem to remember also thinking the CGI was terrible, but now I can only remember one very clunky shot of the newborn alien scurrying away from the ox. Is that the one you're referring to?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Is this true for both the theatrical and the extended cuts? I seem to remember also thinking the CGI was terrible, but now I can only remember one very clunky shot of the newborn alien scurrying away from the ox. Is that the one you're referring to?

There's one brief shot where you see the Xeno's head cracking during its death scene.

There may be something else in the extended cut, but I don't think so. Computer FX just weren't there at the time. Alien 3 came out a year before the breakthrough organic CGI in Jurassic Park and one year after the simpler textures and very-brief sequences with the T-1000 (which uses a lot more old-fashioned tricks than it does CGI).

[StanleyK]

Normally I'd be with Irish on the whole "grand folly" vs. "proficient adequacy" debate, but I have too much damn fun with Aliens. I enjoy the dialogue, the characters, so many of the set-pieces, and Weaver's performance. It's not deep, but it functions to me like a Shawshank or Goodfellas Saturday afternoon movie, where if I'm passing a TV and see it on cable, I want to stop and watch the next good moment and get back to what I was doing. But then I just want to watch the next good moment after that. (Like, how can you watch Paxton's leveling-up last stand and then not want to watch the bit where Vasquez and Gorman sacrifice themselves? And at that point you're already so close to Ripley suiting up in the elevator. It's not like the cupboard needs fixing today anyway.)

And yeah, Aliens is supremely entertaining. Cameron would never write dialogue this well again. Love how he builds up the marines as a squad of ultimate badasses and then most of them die on the first encounter with the aliens, paring the cast size down (and ramping up the tension) to about the level of the first. And that final shootout, and the stand-off over the eggs, and the duel between Ripley and the queen...

[StanleyK]

There's one brief shot where you see the Xeno's head cracking during its death scene.

There may be something else in the extended cut, but I don't think so. Computer FX just weren't there at the time. Alien 3 came out a year before the breakthrough organic CGI in Jurassic Park and one year after the simpler textures and very-brief sequences with the T-1000 (which uses a lot more old-fashioned tricks than it does CGI).

I was thinking of the bit at the very end of this video, which looks like CGI to my layman's eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Gm-PbV5BE

[Dead & Messed Up]

I was thinking of the bit at the very end of this video, which looks like CGI to my layman's eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Gm-PbV5BE

Per the Xenopedia (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_3_Assembly_Cut), you may be right!

[Ezee E]

Yeah, Aliens is one of my favorites. The pacing, acting, direction... For many, they describe Back to the Future as the perfect screenplay. To me, it's Aliens.

[Irish]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I didn't like what they were going for personally, and the extended cut just felt like more of a bad movie(I thought the inmate going crazy and releasing the alien was particularly egregious).

Hehe. Yeah. The entire ending of "Alien 3" is basically a bad slasher movie. Every time I see it, I'm surprised again that (1) anyone behind the camera thought it would be effective (2) Fincher cannot stage action scenes to save his life (which is probably why he hasn't done it since.)

OTOH, I'll take Charles Dance as Clemens (and the weird relationship he forms with Ripley) over most anything else in the series.


Conversely, Aliens has held up extremely well; I thought the extended edition was an improvement, the pacing didn't slack one bit, and I still think the ending is perfect.

My biggest problem with "Aliens" is that Cameron et al hinged their entire third act on putting a little girl in physical danger. That's gotta be the laziest narrative shortcuts anyone can take, especially in a thriller. It didn't bother me up until a few years ago, when a whole lotta other genre stuff started doing the same thing.

Edited to add: Dammit, now I want to watch "Alien 3" again.

[Ezee E]

Ha. I completely forgot that Tywin Lannister was in this.

I actually think the chase scene was very clever, bordering on something that could've been masterful if it was extended a little longer and did something a little more clever with the characters. But it is what it is. I just liked the POV of the Xenomorph.

Alien IV, love that Jeunet just decided to make it into something pulpy and fun. He never betrayed his instincts as a director, but still made a solid Alien movie.

[Grouchy]

Fincher cannot stage action scenes to save his life (which is probably why he hasn't done it since.)
You know, I'd never though about this, but you might be right. He's a superior filmmaker but he doesn't do action scenes.

[Ezee E]

You know, I'd never though about this, but you might be right. He's a superior filmmaker but he doesn't do action scenes.

Benjamin Button is the closest to the last action scene.

Plenty of set pieces still....

[transmogrifier]

The foot chase in Seven is exceptionally directed.

[Skitch]

Yeah that was the best I could think of as far as Fincher action. Also the fight between Tyler and narrator at in the parking garage. I didn't pipe up because they are short and was unsure if they qualify as full action scenes? I don't know.

But this shot though.

http://i.imgur.com/SLXImF1.jpg

Come the fuck on...that scene was crazy full of scary.

[StanleyK]

Alien 3 - 4
Seven - 8
The Game - 4
Fight Club - 10
Panic Room - 5
Zodiac - 8
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5
The Social Network - 8
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - 5
Gone Girl - 7



Yeah, he alternates very consistently between 'good movie' and 'not-good movie'. His next project is a sequel to World War Z and I doubt that's going to buck the trend.

[Dukefrukem]

Alien 3 - 4
Seven - 10
The Game - 9
Fight Club - 10
Panic Room - 5 (I can't believe that's jared leto & a country singer)
Zodiac - 5 (need a rewatch)
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - 5
The Social Network - 8
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - 8
Gone Girl - 8

[Ezee E]

Why the 5 for Panic Room?

[Dukefrukem]

It's unmemorable. But I think I watched it before I fell in love with Fincher.