James Cameron's Avatar (2009)

[angrycinephile]

http://www.musicme.com/

On this site you can listen to James Horner's score streamed for free.

[Barty]

http://www.musicme.com/

On this site you can listen to James Horner's score streamed for free.

You just made my day.

[number8]

Well, that was exactly what I expected it to be like.

[[ETM]]

Well, that was exactly what I expected it to be like.

Pretty fuckin' awesome?

[number8]

;223423']Pretty fuckin' awesome?

Visually, yes. It's a phenomenally-looking movie. Pandora is just amazing.

Story-wise, well, Dances with Smurfs is pretty accurate. It's beat-by-beat what all of you thought it would be.

[Ivan Drago]

Visually, yes. It's a phenomenally-looking movie. Pandora is just amazing.

Story-wise, well, Dances with Smurfs is pretty accurate. It's beat-by-beat what all of you thought it would be.

How's the 3D?

[number8]

I think that's all I should say. Embargo agreement and all that.

[Morris Schæffer]

reviews are coming in. A rave from the Hollywood reporter and 5 stars from Empire Magazine UK.

here's the review:

http://www.empireonline.com/reviews/reviewcomplete.asp?FID=133552

Not sure if there are spoilers, but bear in mind that reviewer Chris Hewitt gave Attack of the Clones five stars as well. ;)

[Dukefrukem]

Oscar nomination for Zoe Saldana?

[Dukefrukem]

It's beat-by-beat what all of you thought it would be.

Mind-numbingly awesome? Sweet!

[Ezee E]

Oscar nomination for Zoe Saldana?
No.

[Mysterious Dude]

Oscar nomination for Zoe Saldana?
For Star Trek?! Totally!!!

[lovejuice]

I think that's all I should say. Embargo agreement and all that.
out of curiosity, how does that work out? i notice that many reviewers seem to post their reviews well advance before the official opening date of a movie, while ebert and you seem to have to wait until that.

[number8]

out of curiosity, how does that work out? i notice that many reviewers seem to post their reviews well advance before the official opening date of a movie, while ebert and you seem to have to wait until that.

Short answer: those reviewers are cuntbags.

[KK2.0]

Advanced reviews are pretty much always positive, i wonder how that happens... :)



Avatar's tomatometer is all positive so far, 12 fresh, my expectations will probably be met as well. Fun and visually striking, if a bit derivative story-wise.

[Morris Schæffer]

The moment is upon us...that for which we have yearned for ages my fellow brethren. And he looked upon his followers and uttered the words: It has begun.

illumination (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avatar/)

[KK2.0]

ops, one rotten. :p


prediction time! i bet around 78%

[Pop Trash]

Metacritic has Variety's review at 90% but if you read it, it seems much more like a 70-80%. He says the story themes are pretty simplistic and that the final act could have been stronger.

[[ETM]]

He says the story themes are pretty simplistic and that the final act could have been stronger.

I don't have any problem with that.

[megladon8]

A good story and a strong conclusion don't matter to you?

[[ETM]]

A good story and a strong conclusion don't matter to you?

"Simplistic themes" = "Bad"?
"Could have been stronger" = "Weak"?

Seems like you're almost(?) hoping you end up hating it. I just don't get it.

As number8 said - it's all about expectations. And I expect I'll be rather satisfied with the film.

[Watashi]

Anyone been following James Cameron's twitter?

"Putting out a retrospective on the decade in film before Avatar's release is hackery and disingenuous."

"@diablocody Now you are convinced the Jennifer's Body follow-up should be shot in 3D, yes? That extra dimension really enhances dialogue."

"Right now Armond White is skittishly refreshing Rotten Tomatoes to decide if I'm a visionary or a guilty liberal."

It's obviously not him, but hilarious nonetheless.

[Watashi]

Every critic I've read said the final act battle needs to be seen to be believed.

[Ezee E]

Meg's already given it a 6.5

[[ETM]]

Btw, I'm not a fan of Leona Lewis, but I'm really liking the end credits song and Horner's main theme that is incorporated into it. I only wish they put a version without vocals on the album, something like Gaeta's Lament on the BSG S4 soundtrack.

[Dukefrukem]

Meg's already given it a 6.5

lol

[[ETM]]

Anyone been following James Cameron's twitter?

Ebert is a total hoot:


ebertchicago
Dear Fox: And, as requested, I won't even comment on "Avatar" online. All I'll do is comment on the online comments on it.

ebertchicago
Hey, Fox, I'll observe your f--king embargo on "Avatar" if it means mine is the last f--king review published.

ebertchicago
"Avatar" reviews are embargoed by Fox. Therefore, only 21 reviews listed on Tomatoes, scoring 86%. http://j.mp/5eeBGX

[number8]

Cuntbags.

[Ezee E]

I like this one from Ebert, "All I want for Christmas is to never see "All I want for Christmas" again."

[megladon8]

;223719']"Simplistic themes" = "Bad"?
"Could have been stronger" = "Weak"?

Seems like you're almost(?) hoping you end up hating it. I just don't get it.

As number8 said - it's all about expectations. And I expect I'll be rather satisfied with the film.


Not at all. I'm hoping it's great, and I'm actually getting a little anxious to see it.

I guess I just misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were pretty much saying "no story and a crappy ending don't matter as long as it looks pretty". Which I was kind of surprised by.

[Mysterious Dude]

*ahem*

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091211/REVIEWS/912119998

[number8]

Embargo lifted. Guess I'll have my review in the morning.

[Pop Trash]

Ebert's convenient memory makes me laugh. He was one of the initial detractors of LOTR and he was also a big supporter of the Star Wars prequels. Guess he keeps that info on the DL now.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Ebert's convenient memory makes me laugh. He was one of the initial detractors of LOTR and he was also a big supporter of the Star Wars prequels. Guess he keeps that info on the DL now.

Well...the first and the third. And for the second and third, he had nothing good to say about the dialogue. I especially love his video takedown of the second film, where he waggles his arms in frustration as he says, "There is not ONE LINE in this film that you could quote with any pleasure."

[[ETM]]

I guess I just misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were pretty much saying "no story and a crappy ending don't matter as long as it looks pretty". Which I was kind of surprised by.

I simply meant what many of the positive reviews seem to be saying - the premise is nice and broad strokes of the story have been all but spelled out to us already, and that is fine, because the movies of this kind are experiences that have little to do with the actual details of the narrative - the characters are nothing spectacular, but they're alive and credible; the plot is a bit by the numbers, but gets it right and pushes the proper buttons; the "could have been" part is of no consequence, because it's arbitrary and subjective. Cameron is talking sequels already, and now that his huge gamble seems to be paying off and the groundwork is laid out, I'm betting there'll be a huge amount of refinement going into all the non-visual elements for the other films.

[Morris Schæffer]

That Ebert review makes me all warm inside. My anticipation has suddenly shot totally and utterly orbital.

[eternity]

A morally, historically, socially, and politically childish amalgam of Pocahontas and Ferngully.

Amazing.

[BuffaloWilder]

Fuck that guy. In the ear.

[number8]

*cough*

[Mysterious Dude]

150 years in the future, men will still kill time in the office by putting golf balls into cups. For some reason, I find that weird.

[number8]

I started thinking about it, and I think Battle for Terra is superior.

[[ETM]]

So what's wrong with the audio?

[number8]

Horner's score is horrible. Or at least, horribly used.

[KK2.0]

150 years in the future, men will still kill time in the office by putting golf balls into cups. For some reason, I find that weird.

Indeed, why people still have sports when we can play Wii NOW? :P

[Skitch]

I started thinking about it, and I think Battle for Terra is superior.

Ugh...this cannot be.

[[ETM]]

Horner's score is horrible. Or at least, horribly used.

That's not good. I've been humming it all the time for days now.

[Sycophant]

I'll be seeing this 2 weeks after it opens, probably at an afternoon matinee, with a friend who's coming into town to see it on IMAX while wearing blue face paint and cat ears.

Should be good times.

[Mysterious Dude]

Indeed, why people still have sports when we can play Wii NOW? :P

"Don't want to invest $3.19 on a hoola hoop? Why not pick up a Wii for just $300? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns)"

[[ETM]]

Armond White hates Avatar, and writes another one for the ages (http://www.nypress.com/article-20710-blue-in-the-face.html)

It's a gold mine:

Also, Avatar’s techno-exoticism involves blue cartoon creatures, not brown, black, red, yellow real-world people.

[Rowland]

What's wrong with the line? Outside of context, it reads like he's suggesting that the blue cartoon characters are just stand-ins for the usual standards of exoticism.

[[ETM]]

What's wrong with the line? Outside of context, it reads like he's suggesting that the blue cartoon characters are just stand-ins for the usual standards of exoticism.

I was under the impression that the terms "red" and "yellow people" at least are considered derogatory.

[Spun Lepton]

;224839']Armond White hates Avatar, and writes another one for the ages (http://www.nypress.com/article-20710-blue-in-the-face.html)

It's a gold mine:

Is anybody shocked by this? Isn't White just the skinny, black version of the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons?

[Grouchy]

Regardless of context, that's a very stupid line. Of course they don't have the colors of real world races. They're from another world.

[number8]

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/green-lantern.jpg

[megladon8]

Funny how John Stewart is one of the best written Green Lanterns now.

[Dead & Messed Up]

He's saying that the film doesn't have a sufficiently diverse real-world cast.

[number8]

He's saying that the film doesn't have a sufficiently diverse real-world cast.

Oh really? Nonsense, it has obligatory Indian Scientist as Sigourney Weaver's assistant and Michelle Rodriguez as a fiery Latina! And...

Okay, that's about it.

[megladon8]

It needed Dr. Quinn as a black scientific presence.

STORMY: You're a real doctor?

DR. QUINN: I have PHd's in four scientific disciplines. Why else do you think they call me 'Dr. Quinn'?

STORMY: I dunno. I just thought it was a nickname. You know, like 'Dr. Dre'. East side!

[Sycophant]

I've come to this thread thrice and am still utterly confounded by meg's last post.

[megladon8]

I've come to this thread thrice and am still utterly confounded by meg's last post.


A reference to "Sealab 2021".

[Sycophant]

Oh, that Dr. Quinn.

[lovejuice]

Horner's score is horrible. Or at least, horribly used.
agree. i don't like the movie that well. the story is banal. i can't figure out how cameron and co. came up with something this unoriginal and said to themselves "this sounds like a wonderful idea, and we should shower it with a lot of time, technology and money!"

then again i might not be an audience for avatar. it quite reminds me of those negative criticism against moulin rouge. perhaps the simplistic story is a perfect platform to showcase the technology.

[B-side]

It needed Dr. Quinn as a black scientific presence.

STORMY: You're a real doctor?

DR. QUINN: I have PHd's in four scientific disciplines. Why else do you think they call me 'Dr. Quinn'?

STORMY: I dunno. I just thought it was a nickname. You know, like 'Dr. Dre'. East side!

"Bizarro!"

[[ETM]]

i can't figure out how cameron and co. came up with something this unoriginal and said to themselves "this sounds like a wonderful idea, and we should shower it with a lot of time, technology and money!"

Well, the real question is - could he have changed it? You know, since he came up with it before all the similar stuff came out. There were at least two things called "Avatar" made since, 2-3 versions of Pocahontas, and not to mention all the "humans invade alien world" stories like "Battle for Terra" and "Planet 51".

[Skitch]

STORMY: "Oh, you mean black Debbie."

[Dukefrukem]

I miss Sealab :(

[B-side]

STORMY: "Oh, you mean black Debbie."

"No, no, not in a bad way, it's just to tell them apart because she's... black."

[KK2.0]

I didn't read the entirety of White's review but he actually defends Transformers 2, or my supercial look at the text gave me a wrong impression?

and despite hating it he still gave it a *** out of *****?

[Sven]

"No, no, not in a bad way, it's just to tell them apart because she's... black."

The best part of this dialogue is the exchange after this line. (paraphrase)

"Then why don't you call HER Debbie and the other one 'White Debbie'?"

"White Debbie? That's stupid, I know she's white."

[B-side]

The best part of this dialogue is the exchange after this line. (paraphrase)

"Then why don't you call HER Debbie and the other one 'White Debbie'?"

"White Debbie? That's stupid, I know she's white."

Haha. I love it.

[Watashi]

I'm wearing my Avatar shirt today just for fun and I've had three hot girls come up to me within a few hours telling me how much they are looking forward to the movie and asking me if I'm going to the midnight show.

Oh yeah. Cameron has the touch.

[Skitch]

The best part of this dialogue is the exchange after this line. (paraphrase)

"Then why don't you call HER Debbie and the other one 'White Debbie'?"

"White Debbie? That's stupid, I know she's white."

I LOVE that part! :lol: And Stormy. And Sealab.


My favorite Sealab moment is still Trapped In The Closet...

"Well...I warned him."

"Me...no...fix...door. Me think...me has...concusion..."

"Dammit Buckethead Wendy!!"

And black Debbie.

[Spun Lepton]

I LOVE that part! :lol: And Stormy. And Sealab.


My favorite Sealab moment is still Trapped In The Closet...

"Well...I warned him."

"Me...no...fix...door. Me think...me has...concusion..."

"Dammit Buckethead Wendy!!"

And black Debbie.

That and the episode where Murphy gets trapped under the fallen cola machine are my favorites.

[EvilShoe]

So yeah, Avatar: step forward for CGI, but story's lacking. Couldn't connect with the movie on an emotional level.

Was never bored though, and final battle scenes are very fun.

[megladon8]

That and the episode where Murphy gets trapped under the fallen cola machine are my favorites.


YES! One of the very best.

He becomes addicted to scorpion venom, then his pal starts holding out on him!

[B-side]

YES! One of the very best.

He becomes addicted to scorpion venom, then his pal starts holding out on him!

"Come on, Murphy, you've been in tighter scrapes than thi-"

...

*scorpion attack*

[Mysterious Dude]

This has been one weird thread.

[Spun Lepton]

This has been one weird thread.

Don't you mean .... BIZARRO WEIRD?!

BIZARRO!
BIZARRO!
BIZARRO!

[Spun Lepton]

Off-topic, but I'm kinda psyched for this movie.

:lol:

[Watashi]

Good Lord, this film was amazing. My eyes have just been ejaculated from the stroking of Cameron's genius.

And for those who complain about weak dialogue and predictable storyline, in the words of the late, great, and legendary ShotoKan:

"Fuck Plot"

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Off-topic, but I'm kinda psyched for this movie.

:lol:

Repped.

[eternity]

Substantively: 8.5. There's wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more here than anyone seems to be giving it credit for. It never gets out of familiar ground but Cameron is an excellent writer and a visual storyteller, and the scenes where special effects are not even really in play say so much to what is going on at the surface and beyond without speaking a word. I don't feel there's anything I do not know about Pandora, or 2147 Earth. That might be a problem since naturally there's supposed to be much more to this universe, but I think Cameron said everything.

It's a bit iffy at times, but it makes up for its temporary, can't stress temporary enough, cliche traps.

Technologically: 96 bajillion zillion dillion
Yeah, this is everything Cameron fucking said it would be. Every last drop of hyperbole is true. Maybe not the whole "you will lust after a blue alien cat girl" business, but yes, it was a shapely naked body.

So yeah, congratulations to James Cameron for pretty much making the next Star Wars and doing everything that George Lucas completely failed at this decade.

[Raiders]

Seeing it tonight in Real D 3D in one of these new Cinemark XD theaters. More excited than I expected to be.

[NickGlass]

And for those who complain about weak dialogue and predictable storyline, in the words of the late, great, and legendary ShotoKan:

"Fuck Plot"

I'm pretty sure you're misquoting the context of "Fuck Plot."

[KK2.0]

Just got back, and yeah, my expectations were met pretty well.

I have to give credits for Cameron's direction, even by telling a story that's absolutely familiar to any of us, the movie is never boring, the world is wonderfully realized and presented, no big issues with characterizations or narrative, even with the flood of CGI action scenes were never confusing.

Kids at my theater seemed to be enjoying the hell out of it, it's the target audience i guess, one of them got really loud during the Na'vi spoken parts "What? Mom, what he is saying?" i recommend late night screenings. :)

Gonna watch it again on IMAX as soon as i can, but even the conventional 3D looked amazing, i was surprised with the amount of depht even during the live action segments.

[Watashi]

I'm pretty sure you're misquoting the context of "Fuck Plot."
I still stand by what I say.

[Spinal]

My eyes have just been ejaculated from the stroking of Cameron's genius.


I don't think you paid attention in health class.

[KK2.0]

I wouldn't say "fuck plot" but in this movie it's definitely secondary to everything else, i'm sure Cameron is aware of that, and i'm ok with that. I've read a few mentions about Melies and it makes sense to me, both were more interested in using the tools to create movie magic, despite CGI or 3D not being exactly new. It helps that Cameron has enough skills to hold the narrative despite some wonky dialogue and predictable story arcs, then the magic did the rest of the job.

And number8 was right, the score is terrible, it reminded me of Lion King except that the music in Disney's movie actually fits.

[Watashi]

The score is indeed terrible. Probably the biggest complaint I had. It was the same recycled Horner hash I've heard before. He reused a lot of the same cues from Glory.

[megladon8]

Jen and I will be accompanying my uncle and his two daughters to see this on Monday afternoon at the IMAX 3D theatre downtown.

[eternity]

The score was totally epic when it needed to be and merely serviceable the rest of the time. I could care less. I just had to exit the theater as soon as Leona Lewis came up.

[Adam]

Seeing it tonight in Real D 3D in one of these new Cinemark XD theaters. More excited than I expected to be.

I can't believe how jazzed I got for this movie all of a sudden. I'm seeing it later tonight and I'm all anxious and fidgety and ready to be crushingly disappointed

[Wryan]

Took some time to get used to the 3D, maybe cause my eyes suck. But I liked it. I felt moved at times, exhilarated often, although the story's as rote as can be. Saldana did a wonderful job. And so did WETA.

[KK2.0]

Seeing it tonight in Real D 3D in one of these new Cinemark XD theaters. More excited than I expected to be.

I've watched at one of these Cinemark RealD 3D, it was the best non-IMAX 3D i've seen yet. But i'll check it at IMAX as soon as i can, screen size improves the immersion quite much.

[Fezzik]

So I just got back from seeing it in a "quasi" IMAX 3D theater.

I walked out of the theater gobsmacked.

Yes, the story is somewhat rote. There are elements from Dances With Wolves, Pocahontas, Ferngully and even Braveheart, but there were enough small differences where even the story felt somewhat fresh.

It helped that Ney'Tira was one of the more endearing characters I've ever had the pleasure to watch. Zoe Saldana was amazing, and I don't say that lightly at all.

Someone jokingly mentioned the possibility of her getting an Oscar nomination, but I say it without a touch of irony. She absolutely deserves one.

Visually, everything you've heard is true. It's a sumptuous film, and the CGI and Live action were seamless and that 'line' was almost invisible. It truly is the Star Wars for this generation.

But, most importantly, I found myself caring for the characters so much that even when I saw the inevitable ending coming from a mile away, I actually wished for it to come about rather than to be thrown a curveball.

Best scene: When Jake tames his Eclani (the flying mount).

I can't wait to see it again.

(and to be honest, i didn't notice the score at all, but I was so taken with the rest of what was going on, I'm not surprised)

[Watashi]

Any time Ney'Tira hissed or growled, I had that special feeling down in the pants.

[Fezzik]

Oh, and as for the "Dances with Smurfs" jokes? Only one thing to say to those...

The Smurfs only wish they could be this hardcore. And this tall.

[Mysterious Dude]

Any time Ney'Tira hissed or growled, I had that special feeling down in the pants.
Are you capable of liking a movie without mentioning your penis?

[Watashi]

Are you capable of liking a movie without mentioning your penis?
No.

[Spun Lepton]

Are you capable of liking a movie without mentioning your penis?

You should've read his review for Ratatouille. Disgusting.

[Mysterious Dude]

You should've read his review for Ratatouille. Disgusting.
I actually thought about saying "at least it wasn't as bad as your Ratatouille review." That was a classic piece of film criticism.

[Watashi]

Maybe I should do separate top ten lists this year. One by my critical self and the other by my penis. I wonder how much overlap there will be.

[Spun Lepton]

Maybe I should do separate top ten lists this year. One by my critical self and the other by my penis. I wonder how much overlap there will be.

I'm going to guess about two inches.

:D

/you left yourself open for that one

[Raiders]

I have a lot to say about this one, but it's way too late. Suffice to say, it was among the most impressive technical feats I have ever witnessed and for a huge budget blockbuster, it all felt very intimate and lovingly rendered. This is not an impersonal film.

[BuffaloWilder]

Hollywood's first furry director.

And in 3d, too.

Noice.

[Barty]

You should've read his review for Ratatouille. Disgusting.

You should look at the positive. Wats has moved from sexual arousal induced by hand drawn animated characters (Belle, Jasmine), to CGI (Mrs. Incredible), and now to realistic CGI characters. Real women can only be next!

[BuffaloWilder]

Ooh.


Ess-nap.

[Winston*]

Personally, I think realistic CGI giant blue cat woman is a step backwards from less realistic CGI woman.

[Watashi]

Why the hell would I want real women? All they cost you is trouble and money.

Let me keep my giant hot blue Amazon cat people.

[Winston*]

Personally, I think realistic CGI giant blue cat woman is a step backwards from less realistic CGI woman.

Actually come to think of it:

Woman (Disney cartoons) - > Mutant woman (The Incredibles) -> Bipedal blue alien woman (Avatar) -> Amorphous asexual blob (?)

[Sxottlan]

Very good. Epic scale. Never bored, but the story is a let down.

I'm starting to think that beside relentless killing machines, Cameron can't write compelling villains to save his life.

[Morris Schæffer]

The score is indeed terrible. Probably the biggest complaint I had. It was the same recycled Horner hash I've heard before. He reused a lot of the same cues from Glory.

That isn't necessarily bad is it? I mean Glory was from 1989 and that's still a formidable score 20 years later. Considering that so may flicks these days are rehashes, re-interpretations, re-imaginings, re-whatevers of something previously existing, is more vintage Horner really such a bad deal?

Knowing how jazzed I get whenever I hear Morricone cues in a Tarantino flick, the thought of hearing Horner rehashes actually makes me semi-excited. Seeing the flick tomorrow.

[megladon8]

A friend of mine went to see the midnight showing on Thursday and I asked him about it this morning.


ME: Dude I forgot to ask about Avatar. How was it?

FRIEND: It was amazing. One of the best movies I've ever seen.

ME: Really, it was that good? Good to hear, I think I'm going Monday. Some of the reviews kind of say the story and characters blow goats but the visuals are stupendous.

FRIEND: Fuck story and characters. I don't go to a movie to analyze it.

ME: :|

[Melville]

Seems like your friends are all prett-y lame. The ones you complain about, anyway.

[Raiders]

That's pretty much what everyone I know, save a few, would say as well.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Well, considering I have a bunch of free passes to the theater that expire in February, I'm probably going to see this at some point in the next few weeks. I'm sure I'll be wowed by the visuals, but my expectations remain low.

[Boner M]

Complaining about friends' poor movie judgement is soooo RT-n00b-ish.

[Raiders]

It's a pioneering film. I think we're being a little unfair to Cameron and Co. in regards to the rather archetypal nature of the plot and characters. Did we hold Georges Melies to the same standard? In any case, I think a retelling of the Pocahontas legend is pretty apt for this film. It's the dialogue where the film suffers most.

[Melville]

That's pretty much what everyone I know, save a few, would say as well.
I don't know anybody in real life who would discuss movies at the level we do here, and certainly some people I know would say that I over-analyze movies if I made any kind of pertinent comment about one, but I don't think I know anybody who would react so dismissively as meg's friend. Admittedly, I don't talk to many people.

[number8]

It's a pioneering film. I think we're being a little unfair to Cameron and Co. in regards to the rather archetypal nature of the plot and characters. Did we hold Georges Melies to the same standard? In any case, I think a retelling of the Pocahontas legend is pretty apt for this film. It's the dialogue where the film suffers most.

You can use the same plot and still create a more intricate suspense with it. That's what good writers do; they take the archetypical and they make it not seem so rote.

I stress again that Battle for Terra is a much better retelling of this same story.

[eternity]

James Cameron has always been a more stylistic filmmaker but he can web a good story. While a lot of things get a bit flimsy upon scrutiny here, it's a strongly webbed tale.

I'm having trouble coming up with a better end line in recent memory, too.

[megladon8]

Seems like your friends are all prett-y lame. The ones you complain about, anyway.


I just don't really have any friends who are INTO movies the way I am. To them "it was entertaining" or "it was good for what it was" are perfectly acceptable analyses. When we went to see Public Enemies together and afterwards I talked about how much I loved the sound design, I was greeted by four people looking at me like this: :confused:

But at the same time, a few of them are INTO video games more than I could ever be. They get talking about the coding involved and the different graphics engines and whatnot, and I feel similarly mystified.

[[ETM]]

Copy/Paste from elsewhere, so I don't have to paraphrase myself:


That was fucking BRILLIANT. We were in really bad seats, third row from the screen all the way on the right, they sold our seats twice so I was in a heated exchange with the employees before being given crappy replacements and we were pretty pissed off before it even started. We forgot ALL about that pretty soon. All the 3D shows were sold out (some even more than once, as I said earlier) and we came there with a group of about 18 friends - most were expecting good things, several were sceptics and some didn't even know what it was about, nor had they seen any trailers or other promotional material... ALL of us stood outside for half an hour afterwards, talking about how FUCKING AMAZING it was. A day after, (my girlfriend) and I are still talking about it. (Our friend) was literally crying in the end, and after it ended, there was long, spontaneous applause in the theatre. I couldn't believe it - people in Balkans are mostly jaded and cynical when it comes to these things, and applause is extremely uncommon.

So, my advice would be - FORGET EVERYTHING, and just go see it. It was way better than any of my expectations, and I'm glad I just brushed off any and all early naysayers: you have to be REALLY wanting to find something wrong to give an outright negative review. All of us wanted to go see it again right after it finished.

So, yeah. I liked it a lot.

One note, considering the discussion here: the positive comments in our large group weren't largely about visuals, as one would have assumed beforehand. We were discussing the biological and evolutionary characteristics of the Pandora wildlife, the Na'vi culture and religion, the weaving of the scientific concepts into the "mother nature" myth, about how fucking awesome Saldana was as Neytiri... the last time I had such a satisfying discussion about a film with anyone was after "12 Monkeys".

[[ETM]]

You can use the same plot and still create a more intricate suspense with it. That's what good writers do; they take the archetypical and they make it not seem so rote.

I stress again that Battle for Terra is a much better retelling of this same story.

The one thing I realized after watching Avatar is - watching some movies, you go "fuck, this happened, so that and that must be how it ends"... in movies like Avatar, it goes more like this: "this happened, oh wow, this is what's coming next, I can't fucking wait!" and I was surprised at how natural that felt and how okay I was with the film as a whole on that level.

[Raiders]

;225939']We were discussing the biological and evolutionary characteristics of the Pandora wildlife, the Na'vi culture and religion, the weaving of the scientific concepts into the "mother nature" myth

This was what I referred to earlier as evidence of how personal the project felt. It was very immersive. I would compare it, on a smaller scale, to Tolkien's achievement on his Middle Earth saga.

[[ETM]]

This was what I referred to earlier as evidence of how personal the project felt. It was very immersive. I would compare it, on a smaller scale, to Tolkien's achievement on his Middle Earth saga.

Indeed. Much smaller level, but in the end, I was strangely confident that I'll see that world explored in more depth, and positively giddy about it, too. I really, really want to see where Cameron takes the story next.

[megladon8]

So what you're saying (at least what I gather from the Tolkien comparison) is that Cameron crafted a believably rich, full, REAL world in which the film's story took place?

That's quite cool to hear. I'm getting more and more anxious to see this.

[[ETM]]

So what you're saying (at least what I gather from the Tolkien comparison) is that Cameron crafted a believably rich, full, REAL world in which the film's story took place?

It feels like a real and breathing world (no pun intended), even though the film barely scratches the surface on the actual details and intricacies. I totally fell in love with it already, though.

[number8]

I mentioned in my review that it must've been tempting to just abandon the story and make a BARAKA style doc about Pandora.

[[ETM]]

I mentioned in my review that it must've been tempting to just abandon the story and make a BARAKA style doc about Pandora.

BARAKA? Not really. "Planet Earth" is more like it, but you can't make a documentary about Pandora without the Na'vi.

[Ivan Drago]

Complaining about friends' poor movie judgement is soooo RT-n00b-ish.

Yeah I know this from experience - two of my friends have complained about my judgment recently over The Boondock Saints - they've downright called me stupid and said that my opinion of movies is null and void. I said one of the things I hated were the one-sided action sequences, but one of them said "They're one-sided because God is behind them, and that adds to the ethical conflict at the end." :rolleyes:

[Ezee E]

The true IMAX theater is sold out until 10:30 tomorrow. Dang.

[Dukefrukem]

This movie was everything I was expecting and more....

[Ivan Drago]

Going to see this in Real-D 3D on Monday, and IMAX 3D a week or so later. Can't wait.

[Derek]

This was actually pretty damn good. The painstakingly detailed world is not only effectively immersive as mere eye candy, but the combination of its shimmering beauty (most reminiscent of Miyazaki) and the tragic weight that gives to the impending damage done to it makes up for much of what is lacking in the story. It's uneven - there are times when its mechanics are extremely transparent and cliched, yet many others where their visual rendering helps transcend that - but surprisingly involving. My biggest complaint, aside from the frequently terrible score, is the more blatant exoticizing that some critics have complained about. It was particularly the group chants/kumbayas and their simplistic representation of more primitive (rather than primal) yet pure cultures that struck me as a tad condescending and misguided. Still, it's kind of fun reading it as an allegorical revenge fantasy where the Native Americans get to come out on top. It's not without it's weaknesses, but the fact that Cameron was able to use so many familiar elements from other films and still craft something unique and exciting is enough to make it one of the better recent sci-fi/action films.

And I'll back Wats up. Neytiri was pretty sexy, though I'll take Zoe Saldana at the end of the day. :)

[Derek]

Also, my eyes unfortunately did not ejaculate. Maybe I needed some eye-agra. :rimshot:

This is what happens when you remove the fear of being neg-repped...

[Skitch]

If going to Imax, get there thirty-forty minutes early. Sitting in the second row all the way to the right is a little...neauseating. Still an epic film, by any standards. Can't wait to see it in a month, when I can sit in a better seat. Only a few complaints, seemed like crazy stuff, but whatever.

Unobtainium? Really? That's the name we went with?

[[ETM]]

Unobtainium? Really? That's the name we went with?

It's actually the perfect name. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

As for why it's important, apart from other things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner_effect
Basically, you have antigravity with minimum energy. I love how it explains the floating mountains in the film. Also, unobtanium being a room-temperature superconductor explains the connection between all living things with Eywa, as anything that lives on Pandora has to be saturated with it.

One of my favorite things about the film is how the science is sufficiently plausible or at least consistent, and never in your face.

[Ezee E]

My bro texted me: Great visuals, but still a stupid movie.

[[ETM]]

still a stupid movie.

I can get unoriginal, derivative, etc. but stupid? Damn.

[Dukefrukem]

there are times when its mechanics are extremely transparent and cliched, yet many others where their visual rendering helps transcend that - but surprisingly involving.

Yes to the first 30 minutes. I was very annoyed how the narration had to spoon feed us the reasons for everything that was happening; to catch us up to speed. I thought that was very poorly done and very un-Cameron like. The only time the narration actually works is when they are;

speeding through the 3 month training process

I really wish he found a better way to start the movie... but i was completely emotionally attached to the characters, sucked right in down to the final "eye-opening" ending.

I loved this movie.

[[ETM]]

Holy crap, boxofficemojo is estimating the total gross of the movie worldwide at $73mil. domestic + $159mil. foreign = $232 million.

[Raiders]

The US domestic number is even better than it appears considering much of the Mid-Atlantic coast was snowed in yesterday.

[Dukefrukem]

The US domestic number is even better than it appears considering much of the Mid-Atlantic coast was snowed in yesterday.

I went to the 9:05 show last night, place was EMPTY. Boston was in a panic for this storm, and the snow didn't even start until 3am. When i got out around midnight, not a single flake had fallen.

[Adam]

Pretty okay, maybe a little better than I thought it would be. I saw it saturday night and the place was packed but it really didn't snow at all where I am (Albany area). Everyone in the theater was completely stoned, too, celebrating the end of finals and whatnot

Why is there an apostrophe in Na'vi, by the by? It would be pronounced the same either way

[Qrazy]

Seeing this tomorrow, didn't realize when you buy tickets for the IMAX you reserve your seat too now.

[megladon8]

;226070']Holy crap, boxofficemojo is estimating the total gross of the movie worldwide at $73mil. domestic + $159mil. foreign = $232 million.


Isn't that pretty ho-hum?

[Pop Trash]

Good, but Cameron still uses way too much inane dialogue/voice-over as a crutch. Dude should be forced to watch the first acts of Wall-E and There Will Be Blood on continuous loops for hours to see how you don't have to have an overly expository VO or dumb one liners to tell a story. Some of the acting and characterisation were quite meh as well.

On the bright side, yes visually this was really nice. 3-D was used more in a Wellsian depth-of-field way rather than just to make random shit pop out at you. And there were moments of brilliant visual storytelling that brought tears to my eyes.

[Watashi]

Isn't that pretty ho-hum?
What the hell?

232 million opening weekend is ho-hum?

[megladon8]

What the hell?

232 million opening weekend is ho-hum?


"Total gross of the movie" does not equal "opening weekend".

[Winston*]

"Total gross of the movie" does not equal "opening weekend".

Are you under the impression that ETM is from the future?

[Dukefrukem]

Are you under the impression that ETM is from the future?

LOL.

[megladon8]

Are you under the impression that ETM is from the future?



"]Holy crap, boxofficemojo is estimating the total gross of the movie worldwide at $73mil. domestic + $159mil. foreign = $232 million.


I guess I was wrong for not interpreting "the total gross of the movie worldwide" as something different from what those words mean.

[Ezee E]

The movie's going to have legs too I figure.

[Winston*]

All the 3D showings here are sold out this week. Will have to wait until after Christmas.

[ledfloyd]

the total gross so far, not the total projected gross. i misread it the same way at first too though.

after listening to cousins complain about the 3D all day i'm not sure i want to see it anymore.

[megladon8]

I'm not reading/hearing complaints about the 3D giving people headaches or dizziness in this film.

I remember even back when Coraline came out earlier this year, I knew a few people in person (and read many accounts online) who either couldn't get through the whole movie, or by the end felt absolutely awful.

Has there been a change in the technology to solve this problem?

[ledfloyd]

I'm not reading/hearing complaints about the 3D giving people headaches or dizziness in this film.

I remember even back when Coraline came out earlier this year, I knew a few people in person (and read many accounts online) who either couldn't get through the whole movie, or by the end felt absolutely awful.

Has there been a change in the technology to solve this problem?
this seems to imply there hasn't been. (http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2009/12/avatar_3d_headaches_look_at_th .html)

[Scar]

I guess I was wrong for not interpreting "the total gross of the movie worldwide" as something different from what those words mean.

Yes, its the total gross of the movie. The total amount the movie has made up to the moment the number is released. The number can grow over time.

[Ezee E]

Stupid, stupid meg.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not reading/hearing complaints about the 3D giving people headaches or dizziness in this film.

I remember even back when Coraline came out earlier this year, I knew a few people in person (and read many accounts online) who either couldn't get through the whole movie, or by the end felt absolutely awful.

Has there been a change in the technology to solve this problem?

I would suggest them to read this (http://gizmodo.com/5430372/how-to-not-get-a-headache-during-avatar).

edit: damn it, ledfloyd.

[ledfloyd]

I would suggest them to read this (http://gizmodo.com/5430372/how-to-not-get-a-headache-during-avatar).

edit: damn it, ledfloyd.
haha, i like that the emerson article goes into how forcing people to focus like that is problematic.

[Skitch]

The movie's going to have legs too I figure.

And, I figure with the holidays, the next two weekends will be big or bigger than this one. And then there's how Titanic made its bucks...twenty mil a weekend for a year...

[Dukefrukem]

I'm already planning on seeing it two more times.

[Skitch]

I'm already planning on seeing it two more times.

At least! After being second row all the way to the right, I'm looking forward to center isle. Also, who knows when we can see or afford some kickass home 3D system? Might as well cram in several shows to tide me over for some time.

[Dukefrukem]

At least! After being second row all the way to the right, I'm looking forward to center isle. Also, who knows when we can see or afford some kickass home 3D system? Might as well cram in several shows to tide me over for some time.

I'd like to get an IMAX viewing in. And a 3D viewing. My initial viewing wasn't even 3D.

[Skitch]

I'd like to get an IMAX viewing in. And a 3D viewing. My initial viewing wasn't even 3D.

How was it in 2D? I hope it holds up.

My viewing was Imax 3D...I can't imagine seeing it 2D...its unbelivable visually.

[Dukefrukem]

How was it in 2D? I hope it holds up.

My viewing was Imax 3D...I can't imagine seeing it 2D...its unbelivable visually.

I didn't know it was 2D when I bought the tickets. I bought them on my phone, and I was coming back from Maine, speeding trying to beat the snow (which never even came). When I got to the theater and found out it was 2D I was pretty disappointed, but as I was sitting there (in an empty theater) I thought, "well maybe it will be less distracting, maybe I'll be able to concentrate more on dialog and continuity.

I was still very much sucked into the movie, completely immersed in the environment on Pandora, and able to have a strong emotional attachment to the characters. There's still a few annoyances I have with the movie, but overall the experience was tremendous.

Seeing it in 3D will be adding frosting to the cake, and in IMAX will be sex with a cake.

[Dukefrukem]

;226070']Holy crap, boxofficemojo is estimating the total gross of the movie worldwide at $73mil. domestic + $159mil. foreign = $232 million.

What's more impressive;


Avatar grossed $159.18M internationally from 106 territories (the six territories that have not opened are Japan, China, Italy, Poland, Argentina, and Uruguay). With North America's snow-slowed grosses of $73M, that's a worldwide total of $232.18M which the studio says is the "highest original content (non-sequel, non-franchise) opening weekend ever"

[Skitch]

That's great to hear Duke. In retrospect, I should've considered seeing it in 2D first.

[megladon8]

Have my tickets for the IMAX 3D showing tomorrow.

Looking forward to it.

[Skitch]

Have my tickets for the IMAX 3D showing tomorrow.

Looking forward to it.

Sir, listen to my sage-like advice: GO FUCKING EARLY. Second row at the right wall is not optimum seating.

[megladon8]

Sir, listen to my sage-like advice: GO FUCKING EARLY. Second row at the right wall is not optimum seating.


It's assigned seating.

We are right in the middle, about 4 rows from the back.

[Thirdmango]

Good movie, the 3D still didn't work with me. I think having low blood pressure is not good for 3D. Luckily the movie was good enough that after the first hour I started to forget it was 3D. That was the first 3D movie that has happened to me in.

[Morris Schæffer]

The US domestic number is even better than it appears considering much of the Mid-Atlantic coast was snowed in yesterday.

Same here in Belgium. I never made it to my theater. So the worldwide number is also better than it appears. Just a tad. :)

[Sxottlan]

In retrospect, I should've considered seeing it in 2D first.

That's what I did. I wanted to be sure I even liked it before dropping however much on seeing it in 3D...which I'll do at some point.

[[ETM]]

Why is there an apostrophe in Na'vi, by the by? It would be pronounced the same either way

There's a slight pause there, or rather an elongated "A".

As for the 3D headaches issue, I got over trying to focus on the blurry bits within 10 minutes or so. It is good to be prepared. I can imagine directors trying to adjust the shots to lessen the impact of the problem by shifting focus in shallow depth-of-field in the way most likely to be followed by the eye, although it is risky business... most likely they'll just follow Cameron's "bring as much as possible into focus" routine.

[number8]

I saw it again tonight on IMAX (I'm gonna miss this theater, it's the biggest IMAX screen in North America), high off my ass on pot cookies and pot rice krispy treat.

It was better, somehow.

[Adam]

I saw it again tonight on IMAX (I'm gonna miss this theater, it's the biggest IMAX screen in North America), high off my ass on pot cookies and pot rice krispy treat.

It was better, somehow.

Holy shit! Are you saying some big, dumb, colorful movie was more enjoyable when you were high than when you were sober?!

And you did it backwards, number8. The trick is you see it stoned the first time through and then you can go back and watch it straight a week later. You won't remember much from the first time, so that way you can enjoy two completely fresh viewings of the same film. This approach was tailor made for a movie like Avatar

[[ETM]]

Create your own Avatar (website is in Spanish) (http://www.mcdonalds.es/avatar/index.php)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/sf_anime/avatar_character_Budo1.jpg

[KK2.0]

What's more impressive;

waiting for 'Avatar 2 - Earth Strikes Back' announcement


Why is there an apostrophe in Na'vi, by the by? It would be pronounced the same either way

maybe because in english it would sound like 'ney-vai' instead of 'nah-vee'? i'm not sure.

[Dukefrukem]

waiting for 'Avatar 2 - Earth Strikes Back' announcement


I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he did this. It would totally work too.

[[ETM]]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he did this. It would totally work too.

He did say he has outlined a trilogy already, but hasn't moved much towards writing actual scripts yet.

[Dukefrukem]

;226361']He did say he has outlined a trilogy already, but hasn't moved much towards writing actual scripts yet.

Did he really?? Link??

[Ezee E]

I wonder if he'll do Battle Angel next.

[KK2.0]

I only hope he doesn't take another fifteen years to make a movie.

[Watashi]

Barely.... just barely... Avatar is the biggest December opening at 77.2 million opening weekend just ahead of I Am Legend. (http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/12/avatar_wears_th.php)

[megladon8]

That was overwhelmingly amazing.

[Mysterious Dude]

You still gotta wear glasses, huh? Eh, fuck that.
I wish I had trusted my instincts. I hated the 3-D. It made the whole picture look gray. Every time I took the glasses off for a second, the colors were so much brighter. I'm never seeing a film like that again.

[megladon8]

I wish I had trusted my instincts. I hated the 3-D. It made the whole picture look gray. Every time I took the glasses off for a second, the colors were so much brighter. I'm never seeing a film like that again.


Your theatres must not be properly equipped or something. Or a problem with their projector(s).

The colours were perfectly vivid and gorgeous here.

[Mysterious Dude]

Your theatres must not be properly equipped or something. Or a problem with their projector(s).

The colours were perfectly vivid and gorgeous here.
So what were the 3-D glasses like? Were they not slightly gray?

[megladon8]

So what were the 3-D glasses like? Were they not slightly gray?


Nope. In the regular light of the theatre, the left lens looked fuscia and the right lens was a pale green.

But when the movie began the glasses were 100% transparent. No cut down in colour at all.

[Mysterious Dude]

Nope. In the regular light of the theatre, the left lens looked fuscia and the right lens was a pale green.You add pink and green, and you get gray.


But when the movie began the glasses were 100% transparent. No cut down in colour at all.I don't see how that's possible. Each lens has to block out part of the picture in order for the 3-D to work, so they could not have been 100% transparent.

[megladon8]

:|


...


There was no colour loss for me, or anyone I saw the movie with.

[Raiders]

Yeah, can't say I remember experiencing any color loss (certainly not to a noticable extent). I took the glasses off a couple times (they were a little bulkier than I would have liked) and though the image was slightly blurry, I would say the colors look just as vivid through the glasses.

[Melville]

You add pink and green, and you get gray.

I don't see how that's possible. Each lens has to block out part of the picture in order for the 3-D to work, so they could not have been 100% transparent.
According to Wikipedia, a 3D projection system is supposed to be combined with a special screen that preserves the polarity of the projected light, as well as reflecting more of it. Maybe your theater didn't have the right screen.

[Mysterious Dude]

According to Wikipedia, a 3D projection system is supposed to be combined with a special screen that preserves the polarity of the projected light, as well as reflecting more of it. Maybe your theater didn't have the right screen.
That seems possible. It's a big theater, but it's not new.

[[ETM]]

Did he really?? Link??

Lots of sources now. (http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2009/12/21/james-cameron-planning-avatar-trilogy-director-tells-mtv-news/)

[megladon8]

So, some extended thoughts...

Story is throwaway, characters are cliché and conform to boring archetypes, and just about every event is predictable - the villains are cartoonishly evil, the heroes are loyal and good to a fault. But it still manages to be emotionally engaging, and when Cameron doesn't succumb to that awful voice-over, there's some brilliant visual story telling to be had.

And yeesh, both the voice-over and dialogue in the film are awful.

It's funny that number8 mentioned how tempting it would have been for the filmmakers to make a Baraka-style nature doc. set on Pandora, because I found the sections of the film that were most affecting and successful were those simply basking in the wondrous sights and sounds the planet had to offer.

There is no exaggeration by people who say Cameron created a living, breathing world here. I feel like I've been to Pandora. It was an often awe-inspiring experience, and the 3D is used to great effect making you feel like you're there. There are still several instances of the obligatory "SHIT FLYING AT YOUR FACE!" that is a staple of 3D, but for the most part it's used gracefully and beautifully.

The N'avi were certainly impressive. While not entirely perfect, there are many, many moments of perfection to be found. Particularly the striking emotional complexion shown in the characters' faces. Gone are the days of shiny plastic robots - these CGI characters feel as real as the world they inhabit.

I could nitpick all day, but I don't want to. I'm still taking it all in, and the more I think about it, the more I loved it.

And I really can't see any point in seeing this in 2D.

While I still disagree with the mindset behind my friend's "f*** story and plot, I don't go to movies to analyze them" thoughts, I can certainly see where this proves partly true in this case. The film is a visual and audio feast, and its simplistic moral tale and characters - while thin and at times silly - are just enough to give this world the depth it needed.

Avatar may not be a "game changer", but it certainly provides a whole new tier of competition in a few different fields.

[Mysterious Dude]

So was it just me or did Sigourney Weaver's avatar have a decidedly human-looking nose?

http://www.daemonsmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sigourneyweaver_avatar-500x311.jpg

vs.

http://media.cleveland.com/sun/intermission_impact/photo/avatar1jpg-f70d0dd4a4f277bc_large.jpg

[Skitch]

My colors were insanely brillant and vibrant. It was perfect color.

[Melville]

I'm just about to go see this. You guys have significantly increased my expectations.

[Raiders]

I'm just about to go see this. You guys have significantly increased my expectations.

I'm not confident you'll like this very much.

[Watashi]

I actually didn't mind the voice-over narration. I thought the video log set-up was adequately executed in filling in the details.

[megladon8]

I actually didn't mind the voice-over narration. I thought the video log set-up was adequately executed in filling in the details.


But that was a lot of the problem, I thought. The narration was too expository. James Cameron needs more confidence in his ability to tell the story visually, because a huge chunk of the narration is totally unnecessary.

The dialogue is the same way. Everyone wears their thoughts on their sleeves, and anyone who isn't a major player in the story practically screams what their character's motivations are through their few lines of dialogue.

This is why I thought the scenes of Pandora without dialogue - simply showing the planet's beauty and danger - were much more effective, because they communicated so much more narratively than the characters' lines.

[[ETM]]

So was it just me or did Sigourney Weaver's avatar have a decidedly human-looking nose?

I liked that - hers was probably the first to be grown, and since they are a genetic mix, it was probably more human than Na'vi. None of the others have proper eyebrows, either.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Is this movie really that popular? I don't know really know anyone who's seen it.

[Fezzik]

Is this movie really that popular? I don't know really know anyone who's seen it.


Everyone I know has either seen it or is planning on it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Everyone I know has either seen it or is planning on it.

Might have something to do with the fact that everyone I know is a bum. I'm a bum.

[Dukefrukem]

Did any of you feel the first 30 minutes sucked.... as in catchings us up speed on wtf was going on? I felt like I was rushed into it.

[Dukefrukem]

;226426']Lots of sources now. (http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2009/12/21/james-cameron-planning-avatar-trilogy-director-tells-mtv-news/)

I'm' really really interested in what this "rigging" process is. I can't wait for the Avatar Blu-ray.

[Mysterious Dude]

Did any of you feel the first 30 minutes sucked.... as in catchings us up speed on wtf was going on? I felt like I was rushed into it.
I thought most of the movie was rushed, and many of the characters did not feel fully developed, particularly Trudy, the female pilot who flies away when they are
blowing up the tree, and then she breaks the others out of jail.

I don't think she was given enough of a reason to act that way. Did she have any kind of relationship with those guys at all other than being their pilot?

[Dukefrukem]

I thought most of the movie was rushed, and many of the characters did not feel fully developed, particularly Trudy, the female pilot who flies away when they are
blowing up the tree, and then she breaks the others out of jail.

I don't think she was given enough of a reason to act that way. Did she have any kind of relationship with those guys at all other than being their pilot?

Totally agree.

[Raiders]

I thought most of the movie was rushed, and many of the characters did not feel fully developed, particularly Trudy, the female pilot who flies away when they are
blowing up the tree, and then she breaks the others out of jail.

I don't think she was given enough of a reason to act that way. Did she have any kind of relationship with those guys at all other than being their pilot?

I think she was around for most of Jake's near constant "plugging in" up there in the floating mountain. She saw his developments I suppose, and was around and encouraged by those trying to coexist with the Na'vi as opposed to treating them as obstacles. She was sympathetic to the cause. I assume that's why she was "their pilot." By choice rather than assignment.

Consider it humane-by-association.

[Ivan Drago]

My eyes and senses have been altered forever.

[Derek]

My eyes and senses have been altered forever.

Internet message board quote whoring? Interesting idea, but I'm not sure I see the payoff.

[Ivan Drago]

Internet message board quote whoring? Interesting idea, but I'm not sure I see the payoff.

:| I haven't read it anywhere else so I'm not whoring. I don't know how else to describe how amazing the visual effects were - everything just looked so real. I can't believe people were arguing over how the effects weren't photorealistic earlier in this thread.

[Melville]

I'm not confident you'll like this very much.
I didn't like it as much as you did, but I did like it. My response was pretty much in line with the general consensus: poorly developed characters and romance, way too much awkwardly integrated exposition, loads of somewhat annoying new age enviro-mysticism, a recycled story with nothing really new or interesting about it (except maybe the literalization of that enviro-mysticism), kind of choppy pacing (e.g. the female pilot rescuing the main characters kind of sprung out of nowhere), very contrived sequences (e.g. the initial attack by the thanator thing), some retched, on-the-nose dialogue, and an incredibly predictable narrative arc...all overcome by the stunning technical achievement and the wonderment of the fully realized alien world.

EDIT: but one thing I don't get is the idea of the female Na'vi being attractive. She has inhuman proportions—way too slim—and she has the nose of a cat. That just doesn't seem sexy to me.

[megladon8]

I didn't think Rodriguez' switch of alliances was necessarily for those few humans involved, but because she was disgusted by the acts of humans as a whole and thereby sympathized with the Na'vi.

[megladon8]

EDIT: but one thing I don't get is the idea of the female Na'vi being attractive. She has inhuman proportions—way too slim—and she has the nose of a cat. That just doesn't seem sexy to me.


I don't get it either. On paper and looking back I just can't figure out how they pulled it off.

But I thought Neytiri was one of the most wholly attractive female characters I've seen in quite a while. It wasn't the way she looked, but her overall poise, movement, persona. Damn she was hot.

[Wryan]

I think she was around for most of Jake's near constant "plugging in" up there in the floating mountain. She saw his developments I suppose, and was around and encouraged by those trying to coexist with the Na'vi as opposed to treating them as obstacles. She was sympathetic to the cause. I assume that's why she was "their pilot." By choice rather than assignment.

Consider it humane-by-association.

Who are we talking about? Vasquez? She's a good guy.

[Melville]

I didn't think Rodriguez' switch of alliances was necessarily for those few humans involved, but because she was disgusted by the acts of humans as a whole and thereby sympathized with the Na'vi.
I thought her change of allegiance was entirely because she was disgusted by the acts of the humans as a whole. But it seemed like a plot contrivance that was just thrown in there to get the main characters out of jail and to the tree of life or whatever. Both her change of allegiance and the jail break seemed abrupt and poorly developed.

[Boner M]

I'm taking my dad to see this tonight. He hadn't heard of it til now. I made a scatterbrained attempt to describe it to him, and I think he now thinks it's a claymation movie.

[megladon8]

I'm taking my dad to see this tonight. He hadn't heard of it til now. I made a scatterbrained attempt to describe it to him, and I think he now thinks it's a claymation movie.


Tell him after the movie that it WAS claymation. That's how far the art has come.

[Derek]

:| I haven't read it anywhere else so I'm not whoring. I don't know how else to describe how amazing the visual effects were - everything just looked so real.

Well, quote whoring isn't repeating what someone else said. It's writing something solely for the reason of being quoted on posters/DVD covers. 'Twas a joke that your statement sounded like that.

[Sven]

I'm taking my dad to see this tonight. He hadn't heard of it til now. I made a scatterbrained attempt to describe it to him, and I think he now thinks it's a claymation movie.

Both Kristen and I lol'd at this.

[Boner M]

Both Kristen and I lol'd at this.
He's my favorite person to talk movies with. Plus I managed to make Jules Dassin his favorite director.

[Qrazy]

I thought her change of allegiance was entirely because she was disgusted by the acts of the humans as a whole. But it seemed like a plot contrivance that was just thrown in there to get the main characters out of jail and to the tree of life or whatever. Both her change of allegiance and the jail break seemed abrupt and poorly developed.

Ehh I felt it was clear where her allegiances lay from some of her earlier scenes. I wasn't at all surprised when she a) broke away from the people sending the rockets and then b) broke them out of jail.

---

Anyway, I really liked this. Some of the dialogue and a bit of the drama were the weak links, particularly early on. Also, when people of Na'vi origin speak the Na'vi language they should just speak fluidly. I felt they paused a bit too much in places.

Personally I don't really care that much about chase sequence contrivances because they're to be expected in these kinds of films. It depends on how contrived the contrivance is I guess. I mean is it any different in Aliens, T2, etc? The only issue is that sometimes set pieces become too 'by the skin of one's teeth' and particularly in CGI this actually serves to make the scene less tense. When the guy leaps out of the exploding ship near the end, it's just too A happens and then B happens and then C happens. They need to find a way to bring back the physicality of Indiana Jones or Jackie Chan style set pieces. Both here and in King Kong, Pirates of Caribbean, and elsewhere the set pieces just feel too inevitable at times.

The story is a bit rote, but whatever it's rendered in such a detailed manner that it doesn't matter all that much. But the film could have used some greying up of the morality. The final battle didn't have to be a battle between good guys and bad guys. It should have been a counterpoint to the earlier animal death. 'This is a sad thing'. The majority of humans could have been portrayed more sympathetically and the decision to go against one's own race should have hit harder.

[Melville]

Ehh I felt it was clear where her allegiances lay from some of her earlier scenes. I wasn't at all surprised when she a) broke away from the people sending the rockets and then b) broke them out of jail.
I wasn't at all surprised, but only because she felt like a nonentity (mixed in with the tough-girl routine that the actress does in all her roles) doing what was required of her for the plot.


But the film could have used some greying up of the morality. The final battle didn't have to be a battle between good guys and bad guys. It should have been a counterpoint to the earlier animal death. 'This is a sad thing'. The majority of humans could have been portrayed more sympathetically and the decision to go against one's own race should have hit harder.
These are good points.

One thing that I didn't understand was in the climactic battle, when the explosives are about to be dropped, how is disaster averted by making the ship fall to the ground and then explode? Since the explosives were about to be dropped, wouldn't the ship have been directly above its target?

[Qrazy]

I wasn't at all surprised, but only because she felt like a nonentity (mixed in with the tough-girl routine that the actress does in all her roles) doing what was required of her for the plot.

That's true. The character should have had a scene or two fleshing her out, perhaps the director's cut (I assume there is one) fleshes out all of the 'good guys' a bit more. The other avatar fellow sort of got left by the way side after a while also.


These are good points.

One thing that I didn't understand was in the climactic battle, when the explosives are about to be dropped, how is disaster averted by making the ship fall to the ground and then explode? Since the explosives were about to be dropped, wouldn't the ship have been directly above its target?


I think it's because he took out one of the ship's 'fans' so that it threw it off course a ways before it crashed.

[soitgoes...]

I think it's because he took out one of the ship's 'fans' so that it threw it off course a ways before it crashed.

This is how I saw it too.

All in all a very good film, but as others stated, the story was a bit simplistic (Qrazy's "rote" is actually spot on). Kinda weird how I saw La roue earlier in the day and then this tonight. Both are technological marvels, made 86 years apart, where the story is the weak point.

[Boner M]

With Raiders & Derek on this one. Film was consistently cornball, but never irritatingly so, and always felt personal, plus the last third was pure matinee-style bliss. Sam Worthington's fluctuating accent was distracting tho; Cameron should've worked on some new technology that fixes shitty accents.

[Raiders]

Sam Worthington's fluctuating accent was distracting tho; Cameron should've worked on some new technology that fixes shitty accents.

It's the second film in a row he has struggled to hide his native accent. Why not just let him speak in his real voice?

[[ETM]]

At least he did better than the Governator.

[Wryan]

At least Cameron still loves his mecha toys and foreshadowing. Lang was pretty fun, too. It really needs to be reiterated that Saldana was absolutely amazing, my favorite performance out of the lot.

[Qrazy]

I actually have a friend who sounds exactly like Saldana did in this film. She's Brazilian (in terms of timbre etc, not like halting English and speaking Na'vi).

[[ETM]]

I actually have a friend who sounds exactly like Saldana did in this film. She's Brazilian (in terms of timbre etc, not like halting English and speaking Na'vi).

When I heard Tsu'Tei for the first time (in a short online clip) I had the same impression: they often sound Brazilian.

[Wryan]

So who was Wes Studi again? Chief Daddy? Glad he keeps getting work, even if it's, you know...

[Watashi]

We need someone to dislike this movie. Sven? Trans?

[Raiders]

Trans?

:sad:

[KK2.0]

I'm' really really interested in what this "rigging" process is. I can't wait for the Avatar Blu-ray.

it's a process in which the CG models are binded to a complex setup of skeleton and skin deformation routines.

and yes, it's a pain in the ass, he said it took an overwhelming 10 months to do it and considering the complexity of the facial expressions, mo-cap and all that i can imagine how hard it was, even for an experienced crew like Weta's.


The narration was too expository. James Cameron needs more confidence in his ability to tell the story visually, because a huge chunk of the narration is totally unnecessary.

Agreed, he can do it just fine, like in the scene with...
...Sully running in his Na'vi legs for the first time, beautiful scene, it was even a bit moving and not a single word was spoken.

If only he tryed more often...


The character should have had a scene or two fleshing her out, perhaps the director's cut (I assume there is one) fleshes out all of the 'good guys' a bit more.

I've heard from a friend that shooting took forever, there must be a lot of scenes left. However, since a huge portion of the film needs post-production maybe they aren't finished.

But Peter Jackson did additional fx for his extended cuts, maybe Cameron does one himself.

[lovejuice]

We need someone to dislike this movie. Sven? Trans?

to some degree, number 8 and i do.

[Scar]

Rewind time:

In regards to the whole thing about not liking CGI or what not, I'm watching Casino Royale, and I wonder how many people know that they had to use CGI in the Aston Martin car crash?

They couldn't get the car to flip using a ramp (it's badass), so they had to use a hydraulic piston in the car to launch itself into a wreck. The piston was digitally removed.

[megladon8]

Rewind time:

In regards to the whole thing about not liking CGI or what not, I'm watching Casino Royale, and I wonder how many people know that they had to use CGI in the Aston Martin car crash?

They couldn't get the car to flip using a ramp (it's badass), so they had to use a hydraulic piston in the car to launch itself into a wreck. The piston was digitally removed.


I did not know that. That's pretty cool.

Have you seen We Own the Night? In the scene with the cars driving in the very heavy rain, the rain was all CGI.

[Ezee E]

Hell, all the scenes inside the suite of Caesar's Palace are on a stage with CGI all for the outside. The rooftop as well.

[Ivan Drago]

Hell, all the scenes inside the suite of Caesar's Palace are on a stage with CGI all for the outside. The rooftop as well.

Did Caesar actually live there?

[Morris Schæffer]

The day after. Bitter, crushing dissapointment is the overriding feeling. Seriously, this hurts. Of course Avatar is far from bad, but why wasn't I thrilled? Moved? Or perhaps I was sufficiently thrilled, but failed to ignore Cameron's previous thrill rides when assessing Avatar. I worship the likes of Aliens, T2 and The Terminator and action-wise, the thrills were vapid, superficial here. Can we simply conclude by saying, "oh well, this is a different kind of movie buddy!"? Does that explain the lot? Sure, I expected the story to be simplistic, but the 3D wasn't even that gobsmacking to begin with.

When things started moving really fast, the 3D effect seemed to almost completely vanish from the screen. Smaller scenes were certainly three dimensional enough, but the chase with the Thanator was a mess, generating precious little adrenaline or excitement. Had I seen too much from trailers, knowing that this scene was going to occur? Seems unlikely. Why did The Hurt Locker, oddly enough helmed by Cameron's Ex, give me a more persuasive "you are there" feeling than Avatar? To be fair, Cameron edits and shoots with enough class to make me sort of appreciate the spatial aspects of his action scenes - I saw what was going on - but it didn't feel epic. It looked epic, but emotion-wise, this movie just didn't produce the goods. I actually cringed during the "THIS IS OUR LAND!!" speech thinking Bill Pullman did it much better in ID-4. I love the Lord of the Rings movies, I love Braveheart, Spartacus and Avatar just didn't come close to making me feel what was at stake.

But goddamit, those 3D effects just didn't come as close to my face as I had expected and hoped with every motherfucking fiber of my being. I felt oddly detached, bar a few moments. Perhaps I saw it in an inferior auditorium. Hell, I even remember a few moments from Beowulf were the screen appeared dangerously close to my face. Here not so much although in terms of CGI it is certainly a huge leap forward.

Sigh. What a downer to end the year.

[B-side]

We need someone to dislike this movie. Sven? Trans?

I have a feeling I won't be all that thrilled with it when I do finally get around to seeing it.

[Qrazy]

But goddamit, those 3D effects just didn't come as close to my face as I had expected and hoped with every motherfucking fiber of my being. I felt oddly detached, bar a few moments. Perhaps I saw it in an inferior auditorium. Hell, I even remember a few moments from Beowulf were the screen appeared dangerously close to my face.


Pretty sure he wasn't trying to throw stuff at your face. He was trying to give a layered, rounded, three-dimensionality to the imagery.

On another note, I really don't understand why people think the original The Terminator is that great (aside from it's originality).

[Raiders]

So, if I'm understanding this Morris, you prefer 3D be used solely as an obvious gimmick?