Christopher Nolan's "Inception" (We're giving up on spoiler tags)

[Dukefrukem]

OK, that makes sense. I was thinking architect in Matrix-terms I guess. It's kind of funny now to think that when he says 'architect' it he means it literally. Kind of puts a new spin on the stereotype of the 'boring architect.'

When discussing Inception, one must pretend that no other films exist. ;)

[Derek]

And I forgot to post my thoughts about the chase sequence after talking to Tom Hardy. When Cobb tries to squeeze through the buildings, that so felt like it was a dream. The kind of dream where you're running away from something, but keep falling down or are getting slowed. But it could also be Nolan fucking with us. :frustrated:

It's ok. I already posted about that 2 pages ago.

[D_Davis]

;275295']This is totally not the place for this, but I have it on good authority Zimmer can't actually write music. Or at least he didn't use to. He... hummed themes to his minions.

You definitely don't have to know how to write or score music to make great music. Especially these days with auto-scoring programs. Just hum or whistle. Being able to create a good melody and the accompanying harmonies and dynamics is far more important than knowing how to write a score.

With that said, I can't say one way or another about Zimmer. His stuff sounds like most of the other modern symphonic film music: generic and unoffensive to its core. Well, I guess I can say it one way or another.

[Barty]

With that said, I can't say one way or another about Zimmer. His stuff sounds like most of the other modern symphonic film music: generic and unoffensive to its core. Well, I guess I can say it one way or another.

Zimmer experiments nearly every film with unique methods of recording and electronics. I'm surprised you don't like him.

And ETM, Zimmer has said himself he can't read music.

[Lucky]

Screw Avatar and The Matrix, THIS is the fantasy world I want to live in. And while I loved the movie, I'm in love with the idea more than the story. I wanted to learn about the theory and logistics more than how Leonardo DiCaprio was going to get home. The first act was delicious in setting up this fantastic scientific backdrop. Ellen Page's second trip to the dreamworld was a cinematic wet dream of skewed perspective and vision. Then the backdrop became just that while a heist film was painted in the foreground. I dream of what movie could have come out of this had it gone a more abstract route. Aside from the hotel sequence and the scenes of Page's tutelage with DiCaprio, the movie surprisingly did not explore its visual boundaries. In fact, a sohcking portion of the footage taking place in the dreamworld could fit comfortably in your run-of-the-mill action film.

I can't stress enough how brilliant this concept is, though. I wish this same world could be used to make many different films. For one, I'd like to see a psychologist use the technique of inception to enter the minds of his patients in attempts to help them. Imagine the mind of a serial killer as portrayed by Lynch. Or Allen's humorous vision of the mind of a struggling commitmentphobic. And there has to be a grand epic love story that Wong Kar Wai could masterfully weave this idea into. Well, at least we have Nolan's heist film.

I realize that my little blurb might make it seem like the film left a sour taste in my mouth, but that's not the case. The labyrinthe narrative was deftfully handled and set up beautifully. I only wish it pushed its limits more. I guess I need to take a dose of reality and realize that these high budget blockbusters need to appeal to the masses.

[number8]

The fanfics for this movie would be fun.

[Barty]

Speaking of Zimmer's awesomeness:

UVkQ0C4qDvM

[Raiders]

Wait... he can't read music??? I don't mean to be a music snob, but c'mon. I don't really like the idea of someone being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, likely millions even, for musical scores if he can't even read or write the music at all.

[Barty]

Wait... he can't read music??? I don't mean to be a music snob, but c'mon. I don't really like the idea of someone being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, likely millions even, for musical scores if he can't even read or write the music at all.

He writes music, he just doesn't using musical notation. It's the music that's important, not the notation.

[amberlita]

I now imagine every Zimmer composition session playing out like the Mozart/Salieri death bed scene. Zimmer hums while someone scribbles furiously. "Sotto Voce....I SAID SOTTO VOCE!!"

[Skitch]

He writes music, he just doesn't using musical notation. It's the music that's important, not the notation.

As a musician, I have to agree with this. Is a story less of a story because its written in a different language?

[Derek]

As a musician, I have to agree with this. Is a story less of a story because its written in a different language?

It's more like, is it less of a story if it's written by an illiterate? I'd still say no, but over 30 years, I'd expect a author to learn how to read/write on his own.

[baby doll]

Speaking of music, didn't the choice of "Non, je ne regrette rien" as the wake-up call seem totally arbitrary? After Jeux d'enfants, La Môme, and now this film, I get the feeling that Marion Cotillard chooses her projects largely based on whether or not there's going to be Edith Piaf music on the soundtrack.

[Raiders]

Yeah, it doesn't ultimately matter, and the real issue is I don't much care for Zimmer's scores. Nonetheless, it seems ludicrous to me that someone can make a career out of, and a small fortune off of, a profession they don't really comprehend the mechanics of.

[Lucky]

It's more like, is it less of a story if it's written by an illiterate? I'd still say no, but over 30 years, I'd expect a author to learn how to read/write on his own.

Yes, this analogy is more fitting. I would find it hard to believe Zimmer can't read music. Maybe he couldn't at first, but devoting your career to it and still being unable to is exceedingly ignorant.

[[ETM]]

Speaking of Zimmer's awesomeness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVkQ0C4qDvM

The white rectangle is strangely adequate.

[Mysterious Dude]

Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music, either.

[[ETM]]

The fanfics for this movie would be fun.

I was thinking TV, HBO miniseries based in the universe, different characters altogether. A good writer could do wonders within the boundaries.

[Derek]

Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music, either.

Jimmy Hendrix played one instrument. He did not write orchestral music.

[Dukefrukem]

It's ok. I already posted about that 2 pages ago.

For some reason I thought I was quoting you when I posted that.

[Barty]

Yeah, it doesn't ultimately matter, and the real issue is I don't much care for Zimmer's scores. Nonetheless, it seems ludicrous to me that someone can make a career out of, and a small fortune off of, a profession they don't really comprehend the mechanics of.

He completely understands the mechanics of it, he just doesn't notate it with an arbitrary (however useful) system.

[Derek]

For some reason I thought I was quoting you when I posted that.

Gotcha. Not sure if you caught Qrazy's response that...I'm pretty much in agreement.

[Derek]

He completely understands the mechanics of it, he just doesn't notate it with an arbitrary (however useful) system.

Musical notation is about as arbitrary to music as the alphabet is to language.

[Lucky]

Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music, either.

That's almost commonplace amongst guitar players, though. Hans Zimmer writes classical-style music for an orchestra of instruments.

[Barty]

Musical notation is about as arbitrary to music as the alphabet is to language.

It's completely arbitrary. Both musical notation and language have no inherent connection to the sounds they represent other than what humans have bestowed upon and use in connection with each other.

[[ETM]]

For the record and once and for all - I don't really care if Zimmer does scores and how he does them. I get sick when people, actual intelligent people with (supposed) taste, cite him as their "favorite film composer". It's just... I can't even wrap my mind around that one. And the worst thing is - it's just going to get worse. It's happening everywhere... just now at Comic Con, Bear McCreary was fired off "Human Target" presumably for budget reasons... he had created a unique, glorious large orchestra score for each of the S1 episodes, which was ludicrous and expensive but also the reason I watched. They actually ditched the best part of the show. I can't blame them, but it's incredibly sad.

[Barty]

People like his sound, it makes them feel something, or excites them, or whatever. Nothing hard to understand about it.

[Derek]

Both musical notation and language have no inherent connection to the sounds they represent other than what humans have bestowed upon and use in connection with each other.

This is true, but as they have both proved immensely useful in communicating with other people, these arbitrary things have gained more and more significance. The ultimate value is in getting the message conveyed, which can be done by a composer who can't read music and an author who can't read/write. The point is that one would expect someone whose entire career is centered on composing or writing to have some understanding of the commonly accepted forms of communicating their messages.

But let's not lose sight of the big picture. Hans Zimmer is simply a pretty boring composer.

[Barty]

This is true, but as they have both proved immensely useful in communicating with other people, these arbitrary things have gained more and more significance. The ultimate value is in getting the message conveyed, which can be done by a composer who can't read music and an author who can't read/write. The point is that one would expect someone whose entire career is centered on composing or writing to have some understanding of the commonly accepted forms of communicating their messages.

Frankly, I appreciate Zimmer getting people's pants in a twist because he doesn't conform to their conventions.


But let's not lose sight of the big picture. Hans Zimmer is simply a pretty boring composer.

Most of his scores have some fantastic experimentation and unique recording techniques. He is hardly boring, he likes to warp his style through all sorts of different ways.

Example, all the battle music in Gladiator is written in formal Waltz's

[[ETM]]

Frankly, I appreciate Zimmer getting people's pants in a twist because he doesn't conform to their conventions.

Yeah, he's a real maverick. You go for it Hans, don't let the system hold you down.


Most of his scores have some fantastic experimentation and unique recording techniques. He is hardly boring, he likes to warp his style through all sorts of different ways.

His scores are more often boring than not. I don't really know about experimentation when most his scores have the same basic sound and are quite easily identified.


Example, all the battle music in Gladiator is written in formal Waltz's

Yay.

[megladon8]

I liked the score for Gladiator a lot.

[[ETM]]

People like his sound, it makes them feel something, or excites them, or whatever. Nothing hard to understand about it.

You're just trying to push my buttons... further.

[Derek]

Frankly, I appreciate Zimmer getting people's pants in a twist because he doesn't conform to their conventions.

Hey, at least some people appreciate his laziness.

[Barty]

;276183']
His scores are more often boring than not. I don't really know about experimentation when most his scores have the same basic sound and are quite easily identified.


I can identify nearly any film composer from just hearing a random piece of their music. From Mansell, to Williams, to Zimmer, to Glass. Not a shocker.

[Barty]

;276185']You're just trying to push my buttons... further.

Subjective Theory of Value.

[Barty]

Hey, at least some people appreciate his laziness.

The man made a 13 hour demo real for Nolan just to get the Joker's sound right. Laziness isn't a good description.

[[ETM]]

I liked the score for Gladiator a lot.

Yeah, it's funny how my favorite tracks on it weren't composed by Zimmer at all (Lisa Gerrard and Klaus Badelt) and the best ones out of those credited to Zimmer "borrow" heavily from Gustav Holst and Wagner, of all people.

[number8]

Speaking of music, didn't the choice of "Non, je ne regrette rien" as the wake-up call seem totally arbitrary? After Jeux d'enfants, La Môme, and now this film, I get the feeling that Marion Cotillard chooses her projects largely based on whether or not there's going to be Edith Piaf music on the soundtrack.

It's not that random. The lyrics somewhat mirrors the Mal and Cobb's love story.

Funny thing, Nolan was actually going to change the song when Cotillard was cast because it's Piaf, but Zimmer convinced him that no one would really notice (probably because he already came up with that slowed down theme and didn't want to rework it).

[Spinal]

Yeah, the score is not one of my favorite parts of the film. It's not distracting though, so I don't care much.

[[ETM]]

I can identify nearly any film composer from just hearing a random piece of their music. From Mansell, to Williams, to Zimmer, to Glass. Not a shocker.

Not nearly the same thing but you know this already.


Subjective Theory of Value.

Or not.


The man made a 13 hour demo real for Nolan just to get the Joker's sound right. Laziness isn't a good description.

Good for him. It's like praising the guy for climbing over a building with alpine gear even though he could just walk around it.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, the score is not one of my favorite parts of the film. It's not distracting though, so I don't care much.

Indeed. It mostly works as background sound, the slowed down song is a pretty brilliant touch, but it's almost insufferably annoying and repetitive on its own.

[megladon8]

I see this argument going absolutely nowhere for either party.

[[ETM]]

I see this argument going absolutely nowhere for either party.

Zimmer is a libertarian composer, obviously.

[Barty]

;276197']Not nearly the same thing but you know this already.

I mean it in the same way. If I haven't heard the score, I can still guess the composer.


Or not.

Yes.



Good for him. It's like praising the guy for climbing over a building with alpine gear even though he could just walk around it.

When the goal is to find the best possible sound, sometime the solution requires experimenting with all different routes.

[megladon8]

For the record, I thought Zimmer's work to produce the sound for the Joker really paid off.

The Dark Knight's score was an Oscar snub if I ever saw one.

[Barty]

For the record, I thought Zimmer's work to produce the sound for the Joker really paid off.

The Dark Knight's score was an Oscar snub if I ever saw one.

Yes it was.

[megladon8]

Yes it was.


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6295/borathighfive.jpg

[Raiders]

It's completely arbitrary. Both musical notation and language have no inherent connection to the sounds they represent other than what humans have bestowed upon and use in connection with each other.

This is objectively false. How can he understand chords or key signatures which are entirely what make music sound how it does? Music is not just melody, it is the intermingling of different sounds across common chords and scales.

Conform to my conventions? Give me a friggin' break. It's music. It's a language; which he cannot write but gets paid large amounts of money for representing. Fine if you love the scores; it's still somewhat disturbing to me he makes this much money for something he can't even put down himself.

[Qrazy]

Speaking of music, didn't the choice of "Non, je ne regrette rien" as the wake-up call seem totally arbitrary? After Jeux d'enfants, La Môme, and now this film, I get the feeling that Marion Cotillard chooses her projects largely based on whether or not there's going to be Edith Piaf music on the soundtrack.

Um no? Cobb is filled with regret. The song is called 'Non, je ne regrette rien.' This is ironic. It also seems like it might be a technique Cobb has to try and distance himself (unsuccessfully) from his guilt. We hear the song playing to signal to the team that they are in a dream and that dream time is almost up. At the same time the content of the song may function as a reminder to Cobb that he is dreaming in an effort to exercise some control over Mal.

[Barty]

This is objectively false. How can he understand chords or key signatures which are entirely what make music sound how it does? Music is not just melody, it is the intermingling of different sounds across common chords and scales.

I don't think you realize we are arguing about different things.

If I speak the word "Apple" and write 'Apple" on a piece of paper it represent the sound that I speak. However, the actual letters are completely arbitrary, the spoken word has no inherent lettering to it, hence the reasons their is different alphabets.

Music is the same way. It's sounds are nearly universally accepted in written form like the below:

http://www.winnipeginmotion.ca/winnipeg/common/uploads/files/GOTC-notation.gif

However, I could create an entirely new system that is just as valid using whatever random symbols I think up. (In fact, people have alternate musical notation systems)

One of the cornerstones of nearly every language (which is what musical notation ultimately is) is arbitrariness.




Conform to my conventions? Give me a friggin' break. It's music. It's a language; which he cannot write but gets paid large amounts of money for representing. Fine if you love the scores; it's still somewhat disturbing to me he makes this much money for something he can't even put down himself.

Mozart could compose music in his head without putting the pen to paper. Are you really arguing you need to write something down to say it's legit? That's ridiculous.

[Qrazy]

Well I too wish Zimmer knew musical notation I suppose because I think he could do more if he did, but I did like the score of the film and his work for the most part. For me the problem with the score in Inception isn't the score itself but rather that it's over-used. However it wonderfully underscores the stuff with Fischer and then when Cobb wakes up on the plane.

I quite like Zimmer's Thin Red Line score. I've liked his work on all three of Nolan's films. The Lion King.

I don't remember his scores for many of his other films although the score for The Last Samurai was a piece of crap.

[number8]

I don't think Zimmer's bad, I just think his music isn't very layered nor terribly complex. He's like the power chords guy of film score.

[Raiders]

I don't think Zimmer's bad, I just think his music isn't very layered nor terribly complex. He's like the power chords guy of film score.

Well, it's hard to be too intricate or layered when you can't visualize the patterns on the page or understand how chords interact with each other.

[megladon8]

Well, it's hard to be too intricate or layered when you can't visualize the patterns on the page or understand how chords interact with each other.


I don't think being able to write music, and being able to understand music, are the same thing at all.

[Barty]

Well, it's hard to be too intricate or layered when you can't visualize the patterns on the page or understand how chords interact with each other.

Jesus he understands how chords work, you don't need musical notation to understand it.

[Raiders]

Jesus he understands how cords work, you don't need musical notation to understand it.

Relax, Barty. I was only half-serious; though I do find it difficult to understand how he can be that familiar with chord-structure and not understand how musical notation works.

[megladon8]

I can't read music, but I understand it.

EDIT: Well, this isn't entirely true. I can read music on the sheet and understand the progression of notes, the time signatures and that stuff.

But if you asked me to play a piece of music on my guitar, I couldn't.

[Raiders]

I can't read music, but I understand it.

No offense, but I don't think you do. Not to the level I'm talking about anyway.

[megladon8]

No offense, but I don't think you do. Not to the level I'm talking about anyway.


Look up.

I took music classes. I understand it. But I never took any kind of lesson nor did I teach myself how to read guitar music, so I need tablature for that.

[Skitch]

I really like Zimmers work, but I think of him less as a composer, and more as a score guy. He does great things for minimalist, emotion enducing sounds. While I quite enjoy his stuff, I don't think he would crack my top composers.

Only thing I was trying to say is I find the way he works, or translates his work to others, irrelevant. I wouldn't care if he was pasting spagetti noodles to mirrors, if the people working with him get what he's after, who cares.

[Skitch]

I took music classes. I understand it. But I never took any kind of lesson nor did I teach myself how to read guitar music, so I need tablature for that.

Ditto. Also, I can play (or play with) most songs on guitar inside of ten minutes of repetitive listening. I can't tell you what all the chords are, but I can relate what I'm playing with numbers. Because numbers make more sense to me than letters.

I find it hard to believe that I'm less musically talented because of that.

[megladon8]

Ok here's a theoretical situation...

Let's say we were to discover that Fyodor Dostoyevsky was completely illiterate - he could not read or write for himself. All of his books were written with him dictating the story to someone who wrote the words down on the page verbatim.

Dostoyevsky's novels show that he obviously had an intimate understanding of language and storytelling.

If he was actually illiterate (which is obviously untrue, but totally plausible as intricate stories have been told through spoken word for thousands of years) would that tarnish your opinion of him as a writer?

The stories and words still came from his head, he just didn't have the means to write them down himself.

Zimmer's scores likewise come from his head. His techniques to achieve these sounds differ from many, but it's still his work.

In fact, from what I know and have heard, it's not entirely uncommon to find famous musicians and composers who can't read music.

[Lucky]

Jesus he understands how chords work, you don't need musical notation to understand it.

No, you don't. Your average guitar player will tell you that.

But he has to be writing his classical melodies on some kind of instrument. And the possibility that he hasn't grasped the simple transition from note to page in his career is baffling. As much as people compare music to a language, it's nowhere near as complex as a language. There's an easy translation between note on an instrument to a mark on a staff -- with no exceptions. Always the same. You praise him for going against the grain, but in reality this is his career and it's a weakness. He relies on someone else to communicate to his coworkers. If during rehearsals he wants to change a lick, he's going to have to rely on someone else to convey his ideas. That's ridiculous for someone with his experience. Learning how to read music is not difficult, especially for someone with an obvious understanding of chord structure and rhythm. I don't think "lazy" is the correct term, but I'll stick by my original "ignorant."

[Derek]

If he was actually illiterate (which is obviously untrue, but totally plausible as intricate stories have been told through spoken word for thousands of years) would that tarnish your opinion of him as a writer?

As I said before, no, it wouldn't, but I would still wonder why, in all those years, he didn't have the person transcribing his stories, teach him how to write himself. Given the quality of the final product, it wouldn't bother me much either. However, if I learned that Peter Travers were illiterate, I would wonder if perhaps he could have been a better writer if he could read and write himself.

[Derek]

In fact, from what I know and have heard, it's not entirely uncommon to find famous musicians and composers who can't read music.

Musicians, yes. I'd be interested to hear what other composers can't read music, however.

[Derek]

Ditto. Also, I can play (or play with) most songs on guitar inside of ten minutes of repetitive listening. I can't tell you what all the chords are, but I can relate what I'm playing with numbers. Because numbers make more sense to me than letters.

I find it hard to believe that I'm less musically talented because of that.

It doesn't make you less musically talented at all. You're also not attempting to create music for multiple people to play on various instruments. You are communicating through your playing.

[megladon8]

I do agree that it's quite amazing that in his long career Zimmer still doesn't know how to read music.

That is quite astounding.

[Raiders]

Yeah, I think you guys are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm not talking musical talent, I'm talking about making your living, a great living, composing entire scores for many instruments and not even knowing how to notate that very music. Considering how long he has been doing it, I find it rather incomprehensible.

I have said it before, I don't personally care inasmuch as it affects my opinion of his scores. I just think it's rather silly and baffling and I do wonder if he could improve and be more varied and layered if he had a better idea how to properly read and notate the music.

[Skitch]

It doesn't make you less musically talented at all. You're also not attempting to create music for multiple people to play on various instruments. You are communicating through your playing.

But couldn't someone create music, if even for others to play on multiple instruments, create it just as well, dispite if he was more comfortable relaying it in a fashion he was more able to understand, but was not the socially/universally accepted norm?

[Fezzik]

The fanfics for this movie would be fun.

My friends and I were discussing the logistics of developing a table top RPG based on it.

I think the possibilities are intriguing.

[Sven]

Yeah, I think you guys are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm not talking musical talent, I'm talking about making your living, a great living, composing entire scores for many instruments and not even knowing how to notate that very music. Considering how long he has been doing it, I find it rather incomprehensible.

I see it the way I was talking about architects before: I would compare his current abilities to the guy who has a really neat idea for a building and can visualize the building and knows what he wants it to look like. But that is not an architect's job. An architect needs to know math and logistics. Physics. Engineering. The language of blueprints and the laws of possibility.

I imagine his demo tapes sound like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdJKFEg1cA

[Watashi]

Zimmer is fantastic. To simply call him a hack composer who is lazy and boring is completely false and insulting to anyone working in the industry. He can't read music, okay, maybe he doesn't feel like he needs to. Maybe he enjoys finding a certain rhythm and expanding and experimenting on that. He doesn't need to "branch out" to become truly great. Zimmer gets tons of rep by directors and musical aficionados worldwide who knows what Zimmer does best. His Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End score is one of the best scores of the decade.

I really grow tired by this board's "know-it-all" lack of enthusiasm for great composers like Zimmer, Newton Howard, Williams, etc because they are "bombastic" or "lazy".

[Sven]

I really grow tired by this board's "know-it-all" lack of enthusiasm for great composers like Zimmer, Newton Howard, Williams, etc because they are "bombastic" or "lazy".

I like Newton Howard tons and like quite a bit of Williams. Zimmer I think of like Williams: some good stuff. All kinda samey. Do more to emphasize than make good on their own.

[Watashi]

That said, while Inception isn't one Zimmer's best work, the track Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_AEMwFhm0) is a thing of beauty.

[Watashi]

My Top 5 Zimmer Scores:

1. Pirates of the Carribean: At World's End
2. The Thin Red Line
3. The Prince of Egypt
4. The Lion King
5. The Dark Knight

[Ezee E]

Second viewing, and I liked it even more. I'm basically at the level Spinal is at this time when he talks about the amount of emotion that's on screen. The first time I was caught up with the logistics, this time it was all about the regret on screen. Both Leo and Cillian Murphy are putting some good things together here. I'm tired, so I'll explain more tomorrow.

[Derek]

I really grow tired by this board's "know-it-all" lack of enthusiasm for great composers like Zimmer, Newton Howard, Williams, etc because they are "bombastic" or "lazy".

I only called Zimmer "lazy" in regards to his inability to read music. He may be the hardest worker in the world, but given how learning to read music isn't that difficult and he is a composer, I found the word fitting. Assuming, as you said, "maybe he doesn't feel like he needs to", then I'd be perfectly willing to call him "willfully ignorant" instead.

I like plenty of Williams' scores and as for Zimmer, I do like the Inception score, though it is overused as it is in all of Nolan's films since Memento.

I know very little about film scores, so I'd appreciate being grouped in the group of know-next-to-nothing's. I usually judge by how well it functions within the film. I rarely listen to them separately, so I don't much care how well it holds up outside of it's intended context.

[Morris Schæffer]

Hans Zimmer is great! Even when the movie stinks - Da Vinci Code comes to mind - he packs out with sheer brilliance. His "Chevaliers du sangreal" is utterly astonishing.

[[ETM]]

Anyway, when it comes to things worth discussing:
http://www.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/inception_timeline_image_01.jp g

[Dukefrukem]

I liked the score for Gladiator a lot.

I did too, but then again, I had no idea he didn't write some of the tracks...


Second viewing, and I liked it even more. I'm basically at the level Spinal is at this time when he talks about the amount of emotion that's on screen. The first time I was caught up with the logistics, this time it was all about the regret on screen. Both Leo and Cillian Murphy are putting some good things together here. I'm tired, so I'll explain more tomorrow.

I liked my second viewing more as well, partially because from the first shot we have previous understanding of what's going on and can enjoy the scenes for what they are, instead of being perplexed by what's going on. It's the little details you pay attention more on the second viewing. I love that. So damn much.

[Ezee E]

Although the scene in the airport and in the house at the end makes it pretty hard to see Cobb's hand, I'm now convinced that it has to still be set in reality. It'd actually be kind of heartbreaking to me to find out that he's still in limbo or in a dreamstate after all that we had gone through.

The totem wobbles many a times in the dreamworld for the record. The only time it spins undisturbed is when it's in the safe. When Saito spins it, and even when Cobb spins it, it's never exactly perfect.

The subplot of Fischer is very Bergman-esque in my opinion. The movie probably could've gone more into it if the emotions of Cobb and his wife weren't already the focus of it all.

Now. While Cobb and Saito are in limbo. Why does it take Cobb so long to find Saito? I'm still trying to figure that out.

[number8]

I think I want to write a short story set in this universe.

[Dukefrukem]

A

Now. While Cobb and Saito are in limbo. Why does it take Cobb so long to find Saito? I'm still trying to figure that out.

My theory is Cobb dies, either from Mal's stab or from drowning in the first dream level. Saito is already in limbo remember? Was there before Cobb and Page arrived. When Cobb dies...that causes him to either, 1 wake up on the beach (like everyone entering limbo does), or 2, wander aimlessly until found.

[number8]

Now. While Cobb and Saito are in limbo. Why does it take Cobb so long to find Saito? I'm still trying to figure that out.

He forgot.

This is what I wanted to post before I left to Comic-Con. Some of you guys are thinking of limbo as just a physical space. Limbo is actually the state of not knowing what's real and what's not. And the only way to get out of limbo is to believe strongly that the world is a dream and then make the "leap of faith" to death. That's why Cobb had to perform inception on Mal to get her out of limbo instead of just pushing her to an oncoming train.

When Cobb washed up on the beach, he looked a couple of years older. His stay in that place, looking for Saito, caused him to forget that he's dreaming. It's not until he saw Saito and they both repeated the "half-forgotten dream, old men filled with regret" line that both of them remembered what happened.

[Ezee E]

My theory is Cobb dies, either from Mal's stab or from drowning in the first dream level. Saito is already in limbo remember? Was there before Cobb and Page arrived. When Cobb dies...that causes him to either, 1 wake up on the beach (like everyone entering limbo does), or 2, wander aimlessly until found.
But Ellen Page washes up on the beach and isn't in limbo. She's in Cobb's dream.

8's theory works very well though.

And yes, if Nolan wanted, he could make some big bucks off of RPGs, fiction, etc... There's a lot of stuff to this universe that's worth talking about.

[Dukefrukem]

But Ellen Page washes up on the beach and isn't in limbo. She's in Cobb's dream.


They were both in limbo. They say this about following Fischer there. And that's why they said Saito is there too. I like 8's theory there, but I believe you can also enter limbo knowing it's limbo.

[number8]

I didn't say you can't.

The level that's often called limbo is just a blank shared space that people go to when they die in a dream. The actual part that makes it limbo is the state of not realizing that it's a dream. You reach it by staying deep down for too long.

When Cobb and Mal were down there, I don't think they got in by dying, but by testing the limits of dreams within dreams so severely and stayed there for so long that they forgot they were dreaming. They spent a lifetime there. But the secret that Cobb said is locked inside Mal triggered Cobb's memory of his kids and he realized that none of it is real. So he performed inception on Mal to make her realize they were dreaming. Together, they committed suicide and escaped limbo.

At the end, the team went down to that shared plane that's still full of stuff Mal and Cobb created when they were there. Fischer and Ariadne weren't down there long enough to lose themselves, so when they jumped from the balcony, they kicked up. Cobb stayed to find Saito because he knew he's down there, but since Saito died minutes earlier, in the bottom level he'd already been there for years because of the time difference (hence him being much older), and had already reached a state of limbo. Cobb knew that he'd need to find Saito and remind him that he's dreaming.

But the search took longer than he thought, and Cobb himself began to forget. Who knows what happened between his decision and him washing up on shore, but he seemed confused. When he'd finally found Saito, both of them finally remembered what was really going on, committed suicide with the gun, and kicked up.

[Raiders]

Ariadne is never in Cobb's dream limbo; they both enter Fisher's dream-state (limbo) after he is killed, hence they are in limbo but they are aware of where they are. I guess the implication is that when Cobb doesn't ride the kick back out of the dream, he dies in the top-level dream (drowning) and thus is rebooted back down to limbo.

I partially disagree with 8 that limbo is, at least at first, "not knowing what is real" because the implication is when Mal and Cobb first get there they know full well it is a dream as they build the city with their minds. Only over time do they forget what is real and what isn't. I think the further implication is that by building your own city, you fail to keep limbo as uncharted dream space and your mind becomes confused because there is no separation from dreamer, architect and so forth, so like all actual dreams, it seems real while you are there.

EDIT: I typed this while 8 posted, naturally.

[number8]

Wait, so what part did you disagree with?

[Skitch]

;276307']Anyway, when it comes to things worth discussing:

I like that. A LOT.

[Raiders]

Wait, so what part did you disagree with?

Only that limbo isn't technically the state of not knowing what is real (not initially), but over time because you're so deep into the subconscious that when you begin to manipulate the unconstructed space you very easily become lost and confused about what is real.

[number8]

Only that limbo isn't technically the state of not knowing what is real (not initially), but over time because you're so deep into the subconscious that when you begin to manipulate the unconstructed space you very easily become lost and confused about what is real.

Let's resolve this with a martial arts infused frisbee fight.

[Dukefrukem]

Bah, at this rate we'll never pass the Dark Knight thread or let alone the Avatar thread for most discussed movie on MC. Someone disagree with someone quickly!

[Ezee E]

Bah, at this rate we'll never pass the Dark Knight thread or let alone the Avatar thread for most discussed movie on MC. Someone disagree with someone quickly!
Quality over quantity brotha!

[Qrazy]

It's too bad the rules of the film don't allow massive dream manipulation during inception/extraction. It would have been awesome to see that first level van chase sequence on a city that had been warped over itself ala Ariadne's training session.

[Dukefrukem]

It's too bad the rules of the film don't allow massive dream manipulation during inception/extraction. It would have been awesome to see that first level van chase sequence on a city that had been warped over itself ala Ariadne's training session.

Although they sorta hinted that it was possible right? Otherwise this scene below wouldn't make any sense. I kinda wondered why they were making such a big deal about the militarized subconscious, if they could just dream up bigger guns on the spot.

2uCjnRrSlU0

[Qrazy]

Although they sorta hinted that it was possible right? Otherwise this scene below wouldn't make any sense. I kinda wondered why they were making such a big deal about the militarized subconscious, if they could just dream up bigger guns on the spot.

2uCjnRrSlU0

It is possible, but they don't do it so that the subject's sub-conscious doesn't find/kill them more quickly.

In the case of that dream I am of the opinion that Eames didn't dream it up right then, he walked over with the gun and then just made a quip that seems to suggest he dreamed it on the spot.

[number8]

I never got the impression he dreamed it up on the spot, either. It seemed more like they can enter the dream world with a "dreamed" weapon, like how you weapon-select before you play a level in a video game.

[Qrazy]

I never got the impression he dreamed it up on the spot, either. It seemed more like they can enter the dream world with a "dreamed" weapon, like how you weapon-select before you play a level in a video game.

Exactly, or like in The Matrix.

[Dukefrukem]

I'll buy that.

[Derek]

I like that. A LOT.

Only problem is that the snow level was Fischer's dream. They only said it was Eames dream when they first entered so that Fischer wouldn't suspect anything.


Only that limbo isn't technically the state of not knowing what is real (not initially), but over time because you're so deep into the subconscious that when you begin to manipulate the unconstructed space you very easily become lost and confused about what is real.

Right, Mal and Cobb went into limbo because they went too many levels down. That's the only way to go to limbo other than dying in a dream when you're too heavily sedated in the real world to wake up.

[number8]

I think the graphic is going by the "dreamer has to stay behind" rule.

[Fezzik]

Only problem is that the snow level was Fischer's dream. They only said it was Eames dream when they first entered so that Fischer wouldn't suspect anything.


No, I actually do think it was Eames's dream. If you remember, during the training session, Cobb tells Ariadne that it was her dream - HE was the subject and was filling it with his subconscious.

So, i think Eames was the dreamer and Fischer was still the subject - he was filling the dream world with his subconscious.

[Qrazy]

Only problem is that the snow level was Fischer's dream. They only said it was Eames dream when they first entered so that Fischer wouldn't suspect anything.


I thought this at first too but I think they're right. If it was Fischer's dream when he died in it and went to limbo it would have started to collapse. Plus each dream has to be a team member's because then they are the creators of the architecture of that dream and Fischer does not have the hospital maze in his head.

[number8]

yeah, it was definitely Eames'.

[[ETM]]

I never got the impression he dreamed it up on the spot, either. It seemed more like they can enter the dream world with a "dreamed" weapon, like how you weapon-select before you play a level in a video game.

I thought he brought a bigger gun in the first place at first too, but I supposed it's possible that Eames can "forge" objects just like he can disguise himself within a dream. It's just a skill that takes training just like everything else and that's why not everyone can do it easily.

[Derek]

I thought this at first too but I think they're right. If it was Fischer's dream when he died in it and went to limbo it would have started to collapse. Plus each dream has to be a team member's because then they are the creators of the architecture of that dream and Fischer does not have the hospital maze in his head.

Right, right. I forgot about the whole dreamer/subject dichotomy.

[Derek]

yeah, it was definitely Eames'.

You are 100% correct!

[number8]

http://www.bite.ca/bitedaily/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/inceptionp11.jpg

[B-side]

I laughed.

[number8]

This might be my favorite written analysis yet.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/07/the_ultimate_explanation_of_in .html

[Dukefrukem]

Not bad. I'll be excited to watch for some of those things on my third viewing.

[[ETM]]

That's brilliant.

[Spinal]

This might be my favorite written analysis yet.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/07/the_ultimate_explanation_of_in .html

Yes, yes, yes! Especially the last sentence.

[Ezee E]

Yes, yes, yes! Especially the last sentence.
Yep. If I recall... YOU typed that first!

[Qrazy]

This might be my favorite written analysis yet.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/07/the_ultimate_explanation_of_in .html

I like many of the thoughts here, especially the maze stuff, but this part is just silly...

"The top isn't the totem, and the wedding ring isn't his totem. The totem is his guilt-- "this is my fault." It is his origin. It is his inception.

He incepted himself."

Yes his guilt, need for a change of perspective and final catharsis are the focus of the film but... You can't incept yourself (as the film defines inception). The whole point of inception concerns the notion of the difficulty of implanting an idea in someone else's head. To say he incepted himself is only to say he is fixated on a single idea (the death of his wife and his guilt), but he could not actually incept himself. In regards to this, thelastpsychiatrist analysis avoids one very big focus of the film, the entire notion of shared dreaming. A dream for us is an illusion because there is no subject/object relationship. A dream for us is solely generated by abstracted memories of past experiences. As far as we know our mind constructs the entire dream. Therefore dreaming is an act of pure subject (a single observer perceiving ones own mental constructs).

However, shared dreaming involves a number of different consciousnesses interacting with one another. A dream is no longer pure subject if there are two individuals communicating with one another and sharing experience inside the dream. This is one of the films most interesting points. Not only do we wonder whether or not any given scene is a dream, we wonder which individuals in the dream are shared dreamers or Cobb's projections. That is to say which individuals are distinct consciousnesses. The film is all about emotional distance in relationships and the effects of this isolation on our psyches, whether it's the relationship between a father and his son or a husband and wife or team members keeping things from one another. If one major difference between The Matrix and Inception is that Inception is a clearer expression of Baudrillard's philosophy, another major difference is that in Inception the illusory world we witness is also the emotional core of the subject dreamer. If the other shared dreamers desire it strongly enough, all of one's secrets can be accessed and even one's personality can be completely altered by the other dreamers.

Beyond the ability for total freedom of control in the act of creation in the dream, this dream world is also the ultimate emotional connection. Given this it's not surprising that there's a room full of dream addicts. Total creative control and complete emotional engagement. However in this dreamworld there's a thin line between complete freedom of control and creation, and losing that control (Cobb's sub-conscious entering the dream and thwarting him), and also never being in control to begin with (Fischer - the target). The act of inception involves manipulating another to believe what you wish them to believe, whether or not it's in their best interest. It also involves the complete alteration of that individual's consciousness from within.

[number8]

http://i.imgur.com/2AaJH.jpg

[Derek]

Not nearly as funny as 8's, but these haven't gotten old yet...

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Inception-xzibit.jpg

[[ETM]]

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/14200000/More-Inception-Macros-inception-2010-14257955-594-436.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/14200000/inception-GIF-inception-2010-14288153-272-124.gif

Heh.

[Dukefrukem]

Were there any opening credits to Inception?

[Ezee E]

Were there any opening credits to Inception?
No names or anything. Just that maze that said Inception.

[Mysterious Dude]

Were there any opening credits to Inception?
No, there were not, and I find this trend very annoying! A movie has not truly started until I see the title!

[Bosco B Thug]

No, there were not, and I find this trend very annoying! A movie has not truly started until I see the title! A. MEN.

[Henry Gale]

No names or anything. Just that maze that said Inception.

Not even that much. That was just the logo for Nolan's production company, Syncopy.

[megladon8]

I'd rather have no titles at all than a credits sequence with white words over a black screen that lasts the better part of 5 minutes.

[EvilShoe]

Lack of a title fits the movie's theme, I thought. (As dreams leave us in a befuddled state as well, we're thrown into them without any warning.)

[megladon8]

Lack of a title fits the movie's theme, I thought. (As dreams leave us in a befuddled state as well, we're thrown into them without any warning.)


I think all of Nolan's films have no beginning titles, though.

I know both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight didn't have titles or credits at the beginning. They both ended with the title.

[number8]

Lack of a title fits the movie's theme, I thought. (As dreams leave us in a befuddled state as well, we're thrown into them without any warning.)

What's the fitting reason for it in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight?

[number8]

I think all of Nolan's films have no beginning titles, though.

Following, Memento and Insomnia did. The Prestige, too, I think.

[megladon8]

Following, Memento and Insomnia did. The Prestige, too, I think.


Hmmm...are you sure Insomnia and The Prestige did? Jen and I watched Insomnia just a couple of days before Inception and I could have sworn Insomnia had no opening credits (or maybe just simply said the title of the film and nothing else). Maybe I'm getting the two mixed up.

[EvilShoe]

What's the fitting reason for it in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight?
Alfred ate them.

[Watashi]

I love opening credits.

[number8]

Hmmm...are you sure Insomnia and The Prestige did? Jen and I watched Insomnia just a couple of days before Inception and I could have sworn Insomnia had no opening credits (or maybe just simply said the title of the film and nothing else). Maybe I'm getting the two mixed up.

I watched it recently too. I'm very sure. In fact, here it is.

JlUUfUvxRi0

[megladon8]

Ah.

I must have gotten it mixed up with Inception, then.

But I am right about Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, right? Didn't both films begin with just the Batman logo and no text of any kind?

[Henry Gale]

Insomnia had opening credits. I watched it the other night.

Pretty sure Prestige had just the title at the beginning, with the credits saved for the end with the Thom Yorke track.

Both Batman films merely have the outline of the bat made up of whatever elements, saving all the titles and credits for the end.

I mean, if a film has nothing unique to do with its credits at the top of the film, or it doesn't serve it overall to build any more of an atmosphere with however they're presented, then I see no problem with just jumping right into things (especially with the way Nolan has done them in his last few). The thing is, doesn't everyone on main credit lines have to agree to them being moved to the end? I don't think it's strictly a director's decision.

EDIT: Somewhat beaten. But man... some of those shots under the Insomnia titles are so gorgeous.

[Dukefrukem]

I love opening credits.

I love Fight Club and Zombieland's opening credits.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I love opening credits.

Agreed. I wish more movies these days went to the trouble. They can be a great way to establish story or tone, and they can do so in a more expressionistic way than, say, an opening scene.

Some of my favorites from the past decade:

Carnivale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CYMXoX-b0o) (TV)
Catch Me If You Can (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVEgK3nCkao)
The Fall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UX8rBEgeQ)
Panic Room (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqIclb4qsJI)
Thank You for Smoking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHKBIKv0HjA)
Watchmen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrVZV__w500)

[number8]

Following also only had the title, no credits. Plain white spaced-out font over black, as Nolan likes it.

[Watashi]

Even though the film sucked, Lord of War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXP5pNZa1I) had awesome opening credits.

[[ETM]]

I mean, if a film has nothing unique to do with its credits at the top of the film, or it doesn't serve it overall to build any more of an atmosphere with however they're presented, then I see no problem with just jumping right into things (especially with the way Nolan has done them in his last few).

This is how I feel about it. Watchmen was a splendid example of a long and heavy film offloading quite a lot of initial exposition and explanation of the setting and tone to the credits, which were in turn very well done. Spiderman is the opposite: the credits overstay their welcome by quite some time, even though the concept was cool... at first.

[Dukefrukem]

;277543']This is how I feel about it. Watchmen was a splendid example of a long and heavy film offloading quite a lot of initial exposition and explanation of the setting and tone to the credits, which were in turn very well done. Spiderman is the opposite: the credits overstay their welcome by quite some time, even though the concept was cool... at first.

Most Marvel opening credits are long and boring.

Bond credits are hit and miss for me.

[Watashi]

Spiderman 2 and Hulk have awesome opening credits.

[[ETM]]

Bond credits are hit and miss for me.

Casino Royale's were a bit too long, but I adored the concept...
tj2MBLsAVbY

[number8]

Iron Man didn't have opening credits.

[Mysterious Dude]

I don't need long opening titles (Blade Runner is one of the worst offenders in that regard; I don't think they do them like that anymore, thankfully). But at least give me the title! Children of Men is a great example. Short opening scene. Title. Then go on with the movie. Traffic doesn't even have an opening scene. Just the title, and then start the movie. Not having a title just seems wrong.

[[ETM]]

Not having a title just seems wrong.

What, in case you went into the wrong theatre?

[Qrazy]

So no one has anything to say about my post about Inceptions politics or my response to the analysis that was posted? You'd much rather talk about opening credit sequences and post little humorous comic strips? Cool, just checking.

:evil:

:P

[BuffaloWilder]

For some reason, I like the idea of a blunt, harsh title sequence that just suddenly interupts some introductory scene with the title, and disappears just as quickly - all of my screenplays are that way.

[DavidSeven]

Movies are better without opening credits. Flash the title, fine. The rest is a waste of time. If you insist, it better be damn cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BWA1T78WpI).

[number8]

I miss the days when movies don't have closing credits and they put all of them at the beginning. At the end, just last line, boom, the end, get out of the theater.

Yeah, I'd rather watch them first.

[Ezee E]

I miss the days when movies don't have closing credits and they put all of them at the beginning. At the end, just last line, boom, the end, get out of the theater.

Yeah, I'd rather watch them first.
Eek. Nah. I usually fastforward through all those.

[Rowland]

I miss the days when movies don't have closing credits and they put all of them at the beginning. At the end, just last line, boom, the end, get out of the theater.

Yeah, I'd rather watch them first.Enter the Void should set the paradigm.

[number8]

Enter the Void should set the paradigm.

Oh man, that was so awesome.

[Bosco B Thug]

I miss the days when movies don't have closing credits and they put all of them at the beginning. At the end, just last line, boom, the end, get out of the theater.

Yeah, I'd rather watch them first. A. MEN.

Although if you mean you want to watch modern movies' 1000+ credits opening the movie, then nah, you crazy.

I say opening credits have an important philosophical purpose. They announce to the viewer the fact that they are watching a film. It's like the curtain for theater. But I guess I'm just old-fashioned.

[Mysterious Dude]

Enter the Void should set the paradigm.
Hmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPxgi-PiNFE

OH GOD MY EYES.

[number8]

Although if you mean you want to watch modern movies' 1000+ credits opening the movie, then nah, you crazy.

Well, I always sit through them now anyway. I'm just saying I'd rather have them first.

[Bosco B Thug]

Well, I always sit through them now anyway. I'm just saying I'd rather have them first. I admire that, but I imagine sitting through 5-10 minutes of credits before a movie would potentially be, for me, deflating to the movie-going.

[Spinal]

I say opening credits have an important philosophical purpose. They announce to the viewer the fact that they are watching a film. It's like the curtain for theater. But I guess I'm just old-fashioned.

When's the last time you went to a play and saw a curtain? Unless it's a high school, that doesn't really happen much anymore. There are these things called programs though. That's more like opening credits than a curtain.

[Qrazy]

My personal preference is just a title and no opening credits, but I don't really give a shit if the film has or does not have opening credits, or title. The film ought to have whatever works best for that film.

[Bosco B Thug]

When's the last time you went to a play and saw a curtain? Unless it's a high school, that doesn't really happen much anymore. There are these things called programs though. That's more like opening credits than a curtain. I don't see theater very much unfortunately. But even if curtains have become outmoded for some reason, my example still stands and my analogy still makes sense to me.

The curtains serves my point better in that it directly, actively preludes the diagetic drama... but sure, a program works too. The old The Importance of Being Earnest film uses both the image of a program and curtains opening to conflate film and theater through its elaborate opening credits.

[Bosco B Thug]

Of course I agree it doesn't really matter. It can be an artistic choice, of course. But most of the time, excising opening credits is a less-than-earnest ploy for austerity that removes from films the quality of presentation, a created work that an audience is supposed to evaluate and grapple with.

EDIT: See, we can obviously talk about very important things like this now because we've all come to one completely unanimous interpretation of Inception, right? :)

[[ETM]]

Great article on the significance of costumes in Inception. (http://clothesonfilm.com/inception-jeffrey-kurland-costume-qa/14317/)

[Philosophe_rouge]

Scott Pilgrim had great opening credits. All Norman McLaren'ey.

[number8]

A recent opening credit that I absolutely loathe is Superbad.

[Watashi]

A recent opening credit that I absolutely loathe is Superbad.
Why?

[number8]

Besides being rather ugly to look at and overlong, I don't know why it seeks to mislead people into thinking there's a 70's kitsch coming, which there isn't.

[Pop Trash]

A recent opening credit that I absolutely loathe is Superbad.

Oh man...I loved that.

[Derek]

The film ought to have whatever works best for that film.

Qrazy speaks truth.


Besides being rather ugly to look at and overlong, I don't know why it seeks to mislead people into thinking there's a 70's kitsch coming, which there isn't.

Didn't Juno have similar credits? That annoyed me a lot more for some reason.

[eternity]

Didn't Juno have similar credits? That annoyed me a lot more for some reason.
Juno has a cel-shaded typical hipster-y opening that has been copied by every similar movie since, whether it be in marketing or otherwise.

[number8]

Oh MAN. Almost as good. (http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=1&loc=D2002-033&s=date)

[Watashi]

Ha! Is that real? If so.... awesome.

[Mysterious Dude]

I had no idea the "Scrooge" comics were so... wordy. Can you imagine Donald Duck being able to pronounce "psychoanalysis"?

[[ETM]]

Can you imagine Donald Duck being able to pronounce "psychoanalysis"?

I can. It's hilarious.

[number8]

I used to read them when I was a kid. The Carl Banks and Don Rosa stories were incredibly wordy and epic, often incorporating real history and myths. They were pretty amazing stuff, and very influential to Ducktales.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just saw it. It was pretty great. Maybe not dense enough to warrant 40 pages of discussion though. Are you going on about the top wobbling in the final scene?

I bet you are, you sick people.

[Derek]

Just saw it. It was pretty great. Maybe not dense enough to warrant 40 pages of discussion though. Are you going on about the top wobbling in the final scene?

I bet you are, you sick people.

Nah, Sven said it definitely fell over and we should be happy.

[BuffaloWilder]

Those duck comics are amazing stuff - I used to have a whole shortbox of them, somewhere. Probably in storage.

[Watashi]

I'm still amazed by the eerie connection between the Scrooge comic and Nolan's film.

It's so fucking eerie.

[B-side]

Some friends wanted to see it, so I watched it again. Exact same response as before. No less positive, no more negative. Still quite good. Occasionally clumsy. Blah blah blah. Important thing is that I still rather enjoy it.

[Mysterious Dude]

I think I like Scrooge's dreams better.

[number8]

if you want more awesomeness, that website has all of the Don Rosa stuff. I recommend "The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck."

[kuehnepips]

;277728']Great article on the significance of costumes in Inception. (http://clothesonfilm.com/inception-jeffrey-kurland-costume-qa/14317/)

So, "the children’s clothing is different in the final scene…" ... them and you guys really want me to watch this again.

[number8]

Just the shoes.

[Dukefrukem]

We gave up on spoiler tags 8.

[Qrazy]

Just the shoes.

I'm about 95% certain the girl's dress also has white (t-shirt length) sleeves at the end while at other times the sleeves are the same color as the dress (pink).

[[ETM]]

Another pretty interesting take on the film. (http://lazenby.tumblr.com/post/891007064/in-praise-of-inception)


Inception is a film that cost $160,000,000 to make, and a further hundred million to promote. Nonetheless it seems on track to make a profit.

These facts alone ought to make us intensely suspicious of anyone trying to defend the movie. Surely anything that represents such an investment must be bound by guy lines that tether its aspirations to the middling, to broad appeal. ‘Fuck you, pay me’ is a stern taskmaster: only very rarely can something of a personal nature slip by it, and out into the world.

My points here are very simple:


Inception is a profound, personal, movie.
The personality being revealed is Christopher Nolan’s (‘he’).
Particularities about who is dreaming who, or when, or if they ever stop are superficial and irrelevant.
Much of the movie is about Nolan’s anxieties when making a movie, especially one where so much other-peoples-money is at stake.
His anxiety arises from the fact that he knows that he is a consummate director of ass-in-seat flock, and the fact that he doesn’t really want to be.
The movie wants to portray the more general anxiety of any creative person in the throes of creation: the enormous strain he finds himself under when, at any moment, the juice could all drain away, leaving him with uninspired, expensive, dreck.
He is aware of how slick and formal action films get asses in seats, and with Inception, he decided to explode that fact.
He wants to portray that one backwards-facing barb in him that prevents smooth delivery of ass-in-seat flock. I would call the barb ‘integrity’ or ‘responsibility’ or ‘commitment’.
In the end, he wants to make a movie that covers his ass and makes a lot of money for everybody, but with the knowledge that if he didn’t simultaneously make a movie that completely expressed his feelings about what it is to make a movie, to be himself, he’ll have failed.


[...]

[Ezee E]

Just read the quoted piece. Meh.

[Qrazy]

Just read the quoted piece. Meh.

Agreed.

[[ETM]]

I knew I shouldn't have quoted anything. It's a nice read dammit.

[Spinal]

Ugh, that's painful analysis. Cynical and strained.

[Raiders]

I like that piece better than the one earlier which seemed intent on proving how awesome the film is. This piece feels more inspired no matter how much it seems to strain my own personal opinion. I don't think it is a particularly well-written piece, but the ideas it presents are interesting.

[Qrazy]

So... anyone care to weigh in on my Inception political post or my response to the analysis post?

[kuehnepips]

Meh it be ... I was there opening night with my sons and a bunch of their buddies aaand their parents ... haven't seen a sold out German cinema since the 70s. It's just huuuuuge here, after a few days only.

[Fezzik]

Ugh, that's painful analysis. Cynical and strained.

Especially since he started writing it eight years ago, before he was a director of the "ass-in-seat" flock.

[Mysterious Dude]

So... anyone care to weigh in on my Inception political post or my response to the analysis post?
Poli-wha?

[number8]

I just thought of something. Nolan should do a Batman/Inception crossover by having Mad Hatter hire Cobb's team to put Batman in a dream he can't get out of.

[Morris Schæffer]

I forgot, but was CHUD's Devon Faraci's analysis ever posted here?

I liked it a great deal especially the bits in blue!


Every single moment of Inception is a dream. I think that in a couple of years this will become the accepted reading of the film, and differing interpretations will have to be skillfully argued to be even remotely considered. The film makes this clear, and it never holds back the truth from audiences. Some find this idea to be narratively repugnant, since they think that a movie where everything is a dream is a movie without stakes, a movie where the audience is wasting their time.Except that this is exactly what Nolan is arguing against. The film is a metaphor for the way that Nolan as a director works, and what he's ultimately saying is that the catharsis found in a dream is as real as the catharsis found in a movie is as real as the catharsis found in life. Inception is about making movies, and cinema is the shared dream that truly interests the director.
I believe that Inception is a dream to the point where even the dream-sharing stuff is a dream. Dom Cobb isn't an extractor. He can't go into other people's dreams. He isn't on the run from the Cobol Corporation. At one point he tells himself this, through the voice of Mal, who is a projection of his own subconscious. She asks him how real he thinks his world is, where he's being chased across the globe by faceless corporate goons.

She asks him that in a scene that we all know is a dream, but Inception lets us in on this elsewhere. Michael Caine's character implores Cobb to return to reality, to wake up. During the chase in Mombasa, Cobb tries to escape down an alleyway, and the two buildings between which he's running begin closing in on him - a classic anxiety dream moment. When he finally pulls himself free he finds Ken Watanabe's character waiting for him, against all logic. Except dream logic.

Much is made in the film about totems, items unique to dreamers that can be used to tell when someone is actually awake or asleep. Cobb's totem is a top, which spins endlessly when he's asleep, and the fact that the top stops spinning at many points in the film is claimed by some to be evidence that Cobb is awake during those scenes. The problem here is that the top wasn't always Cobb's totem - he got it from his wife, who killed herself because she believed that they were still living in a dream. There's more than a slim chance that she's right - note that when Cobb remembers her suicide she is, bizarrely, sitting on a ledge opposite the room they rented. You could do the logical gymnastics required to claim that Mal simply rented another room across the alleyway, but the more realistic notion here is that it's a dream, with the gap between the two lovers being a metaphorical one made literal. When Mal jumps she leaves behind the top, and if she was right about the world being a dream, the fact that it spins or doesn't spin is meaningless. It's a dream construct anyway. There's no way to use the top as a proof of reality.

Watching the film with this eye you can see the dream logic unfolding. As is said in the movie, dreams seem real in the moment and it's only when you've woken up that things seem strange. The film's 'reality' sequences are filled with moments that, on retrospect, seem strange or unlikely or unexplained. Even the basics of the dream sharing technology is unbelievably vague, and I don't think that's just because Nolan wants to keep things streamlined. It's because Cobb's unconscious mind is filling it in as he goes along.

There's more, but I would have to watch the film again with a notebook to get all the evidence (all of it in plain sight). The end seems without a doubt to be a dream - from the dreamy way the film is shot and edited once Cobb wakes up on the plane all the way through to him coming home to find his two kids in the exact position and in the exact same clothes that he kept remembering them, it doesn't matter if the top falls, Cobb is dreaming.

That Cobb is dreaming and still finds his catharsis (that he can now look at the face of his kids) is the point. It's important to realize that Inception is a not very thinly-veiled autobiographical look at how Nolan works. In a recent red carpet interview, Leonardo DiCaprio - who was important in helping Nolan get the script to the final stages - compares the movie not to The Matrix or some other mindfuck movie but Fellini's 8 1/2. This is probably the second most telling thing DiCaprio said during the publicity tour for the film, with the first being that he based Cobb on Nolan. 8 1/2 is totally autobiographical for Fellini, and it's all about an Italian director trying to overcome his block and make a movie (a science fiction movie, even). It's a film about filmmaking, and so is Inception.
The heist team quite neatly maps to major players in a film production. Cobb is the director while Arthur, the guy who does the research and who sets up the places to sleep, is the producer. Ariadne, the dream architect, is the screenwriter - she creates the world that will be entered. Eames is the actor (this is so obvious that the character sits at an old fashioned mirrored vanity, the type which stage actors would use). Yusuf is the technical guy; remember, the Oscar come from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, and it requires a good number of technically minded people to get a movie off the ground. Nolan himself more or less explains this in the latest issue of Film Comment, saying 'There are a lot of striking similarities [between what the team does and the putting on of a major Hollywood movie]. When for instance the team is out on the street they've created, surveying it, that's really identical with what we do on tech scouts before we shoot.'

That leaves two key figures. Saito is the money guy, the big corporate suit who fancies himself a part of the game. And Fischer, the mark, is the audience. Cobb, as a director, takes Fischer through an engaging, stimulating and exciting journey, one that leads him to an understanding about himself. Cobb is the big time movie director (or rather the best version of that - certainly not a Michael Bay) who brings the action, who brings the spectacle, but who also brings the meaning and the humanity and the emotion.
The movies-as-dreams aspect is part of why Inception keeps the dreams so grounded. In the film it's explained that playing with the dream too much alerts the dreamer to the falseness around him; this is just another version of the suspension of disbelief upon which all films hinge. As soon as the audience is pulled out of the movie by some element - an implausible scene, a ludicrous line, a poor performance - it's possible that the cinematic dream spell is broken completely, and they're lost. As a great director, Cobb is also a great artist, which means that even when he's creating a dream about snowmobile chases, he's bringing something of himself into it. That's Mal. It's the auterist impulse, the need to bring your own interests, obsessions and issues into a movie. It's what the best directors do. It's very telling that Nolan sees this as kind of a problem; I suspect another filmmaker might have cast Mal as the special element that makes Cobb so successful.

Inception is such a big deal because it's what great movies strive to do. You walk out of a great film changed, with new ideas planted in your head, with your neural networks subtly rewired by what you've just seen. On a meta level Inception itself does this, with audiences leaving the theater buzzing about the way it made them feel and perceive. New ideas, new thoughts, new points of view are more lasting a souvenir of a great movie than a ticket stub.
It's possible to view Fischer, the mark, as not the audience but just as the character that is being put through the movie that is the dream. To be honest, I haven't quite solidified my thought on Fischer's place in the allegorical web, but what's important is that the breakthrough that Fischer has in the ski fortress is real. Despite the fact that his father is not there, despite the fact that the pinwheel was never by his father's bedside, the emotions that Fischer experiences are 100 percent genuine. It doesn't matter that the movie you're watching isn't a real story, that it's just highly paid people putting on a show - when a movie moves you, it truly moves you. The tears you cry during Up are totally real, even if absolutely nothing that you see on screen has ever existed in the physical world.
For Cobb there's a deeper meaning to it all. While Cobb doesn't have daddy issues (that we know of), he, like Fischer, is dealing with a loss. He's trying to come to grips with the death of his wife*; Fischer's journey reflects Cobb's while not being a complete point for point reflection. That's important for Nolan, who is making films that have personal components - that talk about things that obviously interest or concern him - but that aren't actually about him. Other filmmakers (Fellini) may make movies that are thinly veiled autobiography, but that's not what Nolan or Cobb are doing. The movies (or dreams) they're putting together reflect what they're going through but aren't easily mapped on to them. Talking to Film Comment, Nolan says he has never been to psychoanalysis. 'I think I use filmmaking for that purpose. I have a passionate relationship to what I do.'

In a lot of ways Inception is a bookend to last summer's Inglorious Basterds. In that film Quentin Tarantino celebrated the ways that cinema could change the world, while in Inception Nolan is examining the ways that cinema, the ultimate shared dream, can change an individual. The entire film is a dream, within the confines of the movie itself, but in a more meta sense it's Nolan's dream. He's dreaming Cobb, and finding his own moments of revelation and resolution, just as Cobb is dreaming Fischer and finding his own catharsis and change.
The whole film being a dream isn't a cop out or a waste of time, but an ultimate expression of the film's themes and meaning. It's all fake. But it's all very, very real. And that's something every single movie lover understands implicitly and completely.
* it's really worth noting that if you accept that the whole movie is a dream that Mal may not be dead. She could have just left Cobb. The mourning that he is experiencing deep inside his mind is no less real if she's alive or dead - he has still lost her.

[Spinal]

I still think that if you try to nail it down to dream or reality, you're missing the point of the film. I don't understand why people feel the need to choose when Nolan does such a great job of keeping both options on the table.

I also don't care for the 'film-making metaphor' interpretation. I mean, I guess it's there, but where does that lead you? It's kind of a boring, 'so what?' road to go down, in my opinion. I'd rather make connections about life and love.

[[ETM]]

I'm with Ghost Dog on this one - stick to your view and interpretation, but learn about others. It will just help you appreciate yours more.

[Morris Schæffer]

I think it is possible to nail it down to one or the other without missing the point of the movie which, I guess, the article makes clear. I mean, when Saito's car just suddenly appeared to extract Cobb I went 'Aw come on!" Now, it puts a different perspective on things. In the other event, (that the Mombasa sequences were very real) It would be more of a contrivance. A minor one for sure, but still a contrivance.

It all just enriches the experience, but in the end, as you say, it is about life and love.

[Qrazy]

Poli-wha?

The film as collective social anxiety. (http://www.match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=275989&postcount=977)

My response to thelastpsychiatrist analysis. (http://www.match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=277078&postcount=1117)

[Spinal]

I mean, when Saito's car just suddenly appeared to extract Cobb I went 'Aw come on!"

The scene is enough like a bad dream that Cobb feels the need later to spin the top. However, it is not absurd enough to require dream logic as the blogger suggests. Saito is watching him and wants to protect his investment. Is it highly fortunate that he shows up? Yes. Does it defy real-world logic? Not really.

It's pitched purposefully between the two.

[Qrazy]

I think it is possible to nail it down to one or the other without missing the point of the movie which, I guess, the article makes clear. I mean, when Saito's car just suddenly appeared to extract Cobb I went 'Aw come on!" Now, it puts a different perspective on things. In the other event, (that the Mombasa sequences were very real) It would be more of a contrivance. A minor one for sure, but still a contrivance.

It all just enriches the experience, but in the end, as you say, it is about life and love.

I've said this a few times but I suppose it bears repeating. The whole film as a dream angle doesn't make any sense. This is not because there are no stakes (as the writer of that article claims), but because if everything is a dream then we have no reason to believe one thing in the film is true while another is false. We can't say okay his guilt over his wife's death is what's true but the dream sharing is false. For example, maybe if it's all a dream he does live in a real world where dream sharing is true but his wife never died. Maybe he just cheated on his wife and everything else in his dream is a subconscious manifestation of that. Or maybe he just fell off a building and this is his life flashing before his eyes, etc and so forth.

[Qrazy]

The scene is enough like a bad dream that Cobb feels the need later to spin the top. However, it is not absurd enough to require dream logic as the blogger suggests. Saito is watching him and wants to protect his investment. Is it highly fortunate that he shows up? Yes. Does it defy real-world logic? Not really.

It's pitched purposefully between the two.

Exactly. Nolan consciously made the real world dream-like and the dream world realistic.

[DavidSeven]

;277728']Great article on the significance of costumes in Inception. (http://clothesonfilm.com/inception-jeffrey-kurland-costume-qa/14317/)

This aspect of the film should be getting more recognition. The costuming is impeccable. Memorable without overtaking the characters themselves. Many might consider it trivial detail, but I found Kurland's work added significantly to my appreciation of the overall aesthetic. Here's hoping the Academy breaks the "Period Piece + Big Dresses = BEST COSTUME DESIGN OF THE YEAR!" mentality.

[[ETM]]

Here's hoping the Academy breaks the "Period Piece + Big Dresses = BEST COSTUME DESIGN OF THE YEAR!" mentality.

Oh, I hear you. It's become embarrassing.

[Lucky]

I didn't really find the costumes that memorable. However, I'm not fashion inclined, so my brain doesn't register much difference between formal suits. In fact, when I first read the posts of you guys talking about this the only costume that popped into my head was the dress Cotillard was wearing the first time we see her. That was striking.

[Grouchy]

I've seen this and been reading my way through this thread just now.

I'll post about it when I'm not so busy, which will be next week.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, I did notice the number of fantastic suits in the movie. I'm a suit and tie man myself, so the excellent clothing was much appreciated. Dunno if it's oscar worthy though. Maybe a period piece with big dresses will pop up before February.

[baby doll]

In fact, when I first read the posts of you guys talking about this the only costume that popped into my head was the dress Cotillard was wearing the first time we see her. That was striking.Really? I was all like, "Delphine Seyrig wore it better, bitch." And then I snapped my fingers three times while moving my hand left and right.

[megladon8]

I have to say that I, too, noticed how snazzily dressed everyone was.

I think every man should own at least one tailored suit.

[BuffaloWilder]

I have four.

Well, it lives up to all its praise from here and around the critical community up until about the last twenty minutes - and, then it just seems to become a nonsensical mess of cliche, all falling over itself. I'm not entirely certain what the ending was trying to imply, but if the twist was that he was still in Limbo, then it was kind of - uneccesary, really.

Up until then, great stuff though. Extensive write-up and analysis coming soon enough.

[Qrazy]

I have four.

Well, it lives up to all its praise from here and around the critical community up until about the last twenty minutes - and, then it just seems to become a nonsensical mess of cliche, all falling over itself. I'm not entirely certain what the ending was trying to imply, but if the twist was that he was still in Limbo, then it was kind of - uneccesary, really.

Up until then, great stuff though. Extensive write-up and analysis coming soon enough.

Read the thread before you analyze please.

[Spinal]

Yeah, I don't think this qualifies as a 'twist' ending.

[BuffaloWilder]

Perhaps 'twist' was not the right word - still, it just seemed like an unecessary implication to leave the audience with.

[Spinal]

Perhaps 'twist' was not the right word - still, it just seemed like an unecessary implication to leave the audience with.

I think it's a natural extension of the ideas explored throughout the rest of the film.

[Raiders]

Spoilers for Memento...

I re-watched Memento last night (on Starz I think) and it deals with surprisingly a lot of the same emotional themes of this film, only for me it is 100x more effective. The films are much more similar than I thought. Leonard can't create new memories and is forever burdened with his wife's death as something feeling new and fresh; Cobb can't escape his memories of his wife, his own subconscious acting as a form of self-induced amnesia where he keeps her memory (in this film's structure, her "physical" self) fresh and locked up where he can keep her as he wants to remember her. You could even likely make the case that like Leonard's self-imposed investigation--a form of self-healing, constantly giving himself something to do and strive for--isn't far removed from Cobb's deterministic mission to free himself of the guilt of his wife and reunite himself with his kids, a way to heal the past torment that is so fresh in his mind. Even further is the whole idea of the unreliability of the world we are bourne into. The end of Memento reveals just how unstable it is to have believed everything Leonard has been telling us; the end of Inception leaves in us a doubt about just what is real, what is dream and ultimately what is really important. Leonard's tattoos and photographs are his "totem," that which keeps his mind focused and up-to-speed and keep him from losing himself in his memories, or lack thereof. But, they are tainted by the fact that he himself controls them; Cobb's top is tainted by the fact that it isn't even his totem and really, could the mind not make a top spin forever or fall over if it really wanted it to?

Where I think the difference for me personally lies in the effectiveness of one film over the other is that the labyrinth Nolan creates here removes me so far from the story of Cobb. So much of the second half is rote cinema, boring action sequences and so dependent upon mathematical rules that literalize dreamspace to a point I simply begin to zone out. With Memento there is little rhyme or reason to exactly how Leonard's mind works, he can sometimes go long stretches of time and others only a matter of seconds. Nolan's structural gimmick undercuts Leonard's own thoughts and his long conversation on the phone that intertwines throughout. For all the meta-talk of Inception, Nolan's structure in Memento is beautifully conveyed to show how editing rhythms in film can so easily betray what we believe to be true; it is a film beautifully open about its own sleight-of-hand. What we initially may be thinking is a victory for Leonard winds up being nothing of the sort, the end reveals his cyclical trap and eternal search for something he can never find.

People tell me that the true point of the ending to Inception is that Cobb walks away, that he doesn't care what the top does. Is that supposed to make it a happy ending? Perhaps if Cobb hadn't even spun the top, perhaps if he had seen his kids and that be it, we could call it happy. But, it wasn't happy when he and Mal were stuck in a dream they didn't know was real and if that is indeed where Cobb is at the end here, then I don't consider it happy at all. It undercuts basic humanity and if Nolan were going to be honest and his intent is for Cobb to be trapped in a dream then it is only dishonest not to then cut to his comatose body. The ending tainted the very culmination to the film's emotional arc and again, it just didn't work for me. Memento also has what is potentially a fake catharsis, only Nolan starts the story there and by doing so, grants us a final emotion on which to sit: sadness and pity. It may not be an emotion we care for, but the grief that Leonard is not only working his way up to a likely false catharsis but is inflicting this upon himself is heartbreaking. There Nolan had the courage to plant an image of a man and shred it; in Inception the finale is only another puzzle, a false ending. When Richard Linklater left Before Sunset wide open, it was an act of grace that let you root for something without being definitive. With Inception, Nolan gives you the resolution all humane people want and then immediately undercuts it. Maybe it's a personal thing. Maybe I simply don't believe that Cobb thinking he is safe, at home, with his kids is at all remotely the same as it actually happening. I dreamed the other day I had received a lot of money and bought my dream house and for that time I was excited. But it wasn't real; my body was lying inside that condo the entire time. I shudder at the thought of Cobb's potentially comatose body in a hospital somewhere, forever contained to the space between his ears.

[Pop Trash]

Interesting thoughts Raiders, and I agree that Memento and Inception share similar stories. In fact, most of Nolan's better films have a common thoughline in that the main protagonist is obsessive, compulsive, and a bit of a control freak, but whatever he wants to control becomes unstable due to some variable (either something emotional from his past or something else that causes the 'hero' to lose control). I think that's why the argument against the 'didactic' dialogue doesn't work for me. To me, it's not just Nolan verbalizing the plot, but the character verbalizing to his other both to maintain his own obsessive control and as a way to remind himself how he perceives this world to work. In my job, I have to train other employees a lot and it's all fairly technical, if a small thing goes wrong, it could unravel our whole project. So I often talk to my employees like Cobb talks to Ellen Page's character, both to train others and also a way of thinking outloud.

As for Inception's ending, I don't think Nolan is making a judgement that knowing/not knowing if you are in reality doesn't matter. I only think he is saying to this particular character (Cobb) it doesn't matter. Cobb has accepted his own percieved happiness, regardless of reality. But I don't think Nolan is saying "hey we should all be happy, ignorance is bliss, no matter what we percieve" anymore than he was saying at the end of Memento "hey it's good to continue your obsessions because that gives your life a purpose." He is merely saying that these characters have both accepted that as their life.

[Dukefrukem]

And for the sake of doing it;

Inception >> Prestige >> Dark Knight >> Memento >> BB

[Qrazy]

Memento > Inception > Prestige > Dark Knight > Batman Begins > Insomnia > Following

[Dukefrukem]

And for the sake of doing it;

Inception >> Prestige >> Dark Knight >> Memento >> BB >> Insomnia

Forgot to include Insomnia

[number8]

The Prestige > The Dark Knight > Inception > Batman Begins > Following > Memento > Insomnia

[Spinal]

I wouldn't call Inception's ending happy. I think it's bittersweet.

[Rowland]

Spoilers for Memento...Very insightful.

[[ETM]]

I shudder at the thought of Cobb's potentially comatose body in a hospital somewhere, forever contained to the space between his ears.

In the film's established universe, he could live several complete human lifetimes in a couple of days. I don't think that's a bad bargain, considering.

[Pop Trash]

Memento > Inception > The Dark Knight > Following > Batman Begins > Insomnia > The Prestige

In fairness, The Prestige, Insomnia, Batman Begins, and Following all deserve a rewatch from me. I've only seen those once.

[Raiders]

;278744']In the film's established universe, he could live several complete human lifetimes in a couple of days. I don't think that's a bad bargain, considering.

By "forever" I meant in the dream, not in reality. I also would consider it worse that he spent a false lifetime only to have spent a couple days in the real world since if he does wake from limbo, he'll be in the same situation as before.

I realize I'm making a lot of assumptions, and I could just choose to not accept that the ending might not be real, but Nolan intentionally put that doubt there and it severely hampers the finale for me.

[Bosco B Thug]

Today a female friend reminded me about the little flirtation going on throughout the film between Eames and Joseph Gordon-Levitt, which is clearly there. It's pretty blatant. Probably nothing interesting to say about it, but just thought I'd bring it up, since it's been mentioned ZERO times in pages and pages of discussion, because you're all a bunch of dudes.

[megladon8]

Today a female friend reminded me about the little flirtation going on throughout the film between Eames and Joseph Gordon-Levitt, which is clearly there. It's pretty blatant. Probably nothing interesting to say about it, but just thought I'd bring it up, since it's been mentioned ZERO times in pages and pages of discussion, because you're all a bunch of dudes.


I really didn't see it as flirting at all. They were breaking each other's balls, so to speak.

[BuffaloWilder]

Yeah - that was supposed to be flirting?

[Bosco B Thug]

Well, in a sense. Whether it's two straight men yanking each other's chain, or a one-sided thing (Eames is obviously the more proactive and interested in their postures to each other), homosexual interest definitely tinges their jokey report. Plus, there's Eames turning himself into the sexy blonde and of course having to show it off to JLG. All little more than Nolan adding some levity to the film, but yes, flirting.

[megladon8]

I'm sorry but that's a really, really freaking big stretch.

[Qrazy]

My impression was they had done some work in the past together which led to dislike but over the course of this job they started teasing and enjoying each other's company more rather than the earlier dynamic which was primarily antipathy.

[Bosco B Thug]

I'm sorry but that's a really, really freaking big stretch.
I'm not saying they're interested in each other, I'm just saying their rapport (I meant "rapport" when I wrote "report" before) is an obvious running joke in the film, and it's always tinged as Eames "making moves" on JLG.

Oh boy, I'm probably diggin' myself in something. In any case, girls I've talked to love to point it out.

[Spinal]

Subtext that I got was that Eames considered Arthur a little bit underqualified. Doesn't Eames refer to Arthur's seriousness at the first sit-down with Cobb? Maybe he was trying to lighten him up.

[Bosco B Thug]

My impression was they had done some work in the past together which led to dislike but over the course of this job they started teasing and enjoying each other's company more rather than the earlier dynamic which was primarily antipathy.
Subtext that I got was that Eames considered Arthur a little bit underqualified. Doesn't Eames refer to Arthur's seriousness at the first sit-down with Cobb? Maybe he was trying to lighten him up. I mean, these are both the correct reading, as the text, or the story proper. The flirting is the in-jokey subtext.

I picked up on it, buuut I guess this is just a reflection on me... I guess I'll go join the LiveJournal fangirls!

[Spinal]

I need gay subtext to be on a Frodo-Sam level of obviousness before I notice it.

[Bosco B Thug]

I need gay subtext to be on a Frodo-Sam level of obviousness before I notice it.
Just takes some practice!

Eames wears pink at least once. FACT.

[Derek]

With Inception, Nolan gives you the resolution all humane people want and then immediately undercuts it. Maybe it's a personal thing. Maybe I simply don't believe that Cobb thinking he is safe, at home, with his kids is at all remotely the same as it actually happening. I dreamed the other day I had received a lot of money and bought my dream house and for that time I was excited. But it wasn't real; my body was lying inside that condo the entire time. I shudder at the thought of Cobb's potentially comatose body in a hospital somewhere, forever contained to the space between his ears.

Obviously we both took something different away from the ending, but I don't see where Nolan suggests that Cobb thinking he is safe is the same as it actually happening or expects us to think that. I too shudder at the thought of Cobb potentially resigned to yet another false reality simply as a means to experience a few more years of a fraudulent life, but the fact that Nolan merely hints at it, planting that seed of doubt while also showing that Cobb has accepted this as his happy ending. How you feel about that is entirely up to you, IMO.

Otherwise, great thoughts on Memento. I haven't seen it since it first came to DVD, so it's about time for a rewatch.

[amberlita]

Well, in a sense. Whether it's two straight men yanking each other's chain, or a one-sided thing (Eames is obviously the more proactive and interested in their postures to each other), homosexual interest definitely tinges their jokey report. Plus, there's Eames turning himself into the sexy blonde and of course having to show it off to JLG. All little more than Nolan adding some levity to the film, but yes, flirting.

Did that happen? I only remember Eames immediately turning into the blonde and talking to Fisher when Cobb showed up, he walked away to the elevator where Saito was and he revealed who he was in the mirror. Don't recall him actually seeing Arthur at any point as the blonde bombshell.

Still, I kind of got that sexual undertone from Eames in his interaction with nearly everyone not exclusive to JGL. It's not unreasonable to think Eames is gay, or more likely just a dandy cad.

[B-side]

I've never understood this conjecture people make about homoerotic subtext and such. Eames isn't gay, and Nolan gives no hint whatsoever that he is, and even if he did, it adds nothing to the film at all. I just don't see any use in speculating about this kind of stuff, especially in this situation where it's in no way implied.

[Derek]

Eames isn't gay

I don't get why you presume a character is straight simply because you see no evidence to the contrary. Every fictional character is automatically straight unless it's clearly implied otherwise? Not that I think there's much of a case to be made for Eames' being gay, but I find it more odd when people get uppity at the suggestion that characters are, regardless of whether it adds to the film or not.

[Bosco B Thug]

Did that happen? I only remember Eames immediately turning into the blonde and talking to Fisher when Cobb showed up, he walked away to the elevator where Saito was and he revealed who he was in the mirror. Don't recall him actually seeing Arthur at any point as the blonde bombshell. Yeah, I don't remember. I thought I did, but I'm pretty sure you know better than me, I just went out on a limb with my vague memory. :cool: But at least, most important is that Eames turning himself into a chick is an prominent plot point and joke.


I've never understood this conjecture people make about homoerotic subtext and such. Eames isn't gay, and Nolan gives no hint whatsoever that he is, and even if he did, it adds nothing to the film at all. I just don't see any use in speculating about this kind of stuff, especially in this situation where it's in no way implied. Everyone stop panicking, I agree there's most likely no interest on Nolan's part in making Eames gay (unfortunately?), and that it's hardly important, although I do think the joke (as insensate it is to say it like that) and possibility (like amberlita said, it's not unreasonable, why would it be) of him being gay is definitely added in for the levity (or, more respectfully) personality of it.

Of course there's little use in speculating about it. I just brought it up in the first place because my friend talked about it today with fan fiction enthusiasm, I in fact did pick it up when watching the film, and I thought it was funny no one's mentioned it yet.

[Spinal]

Eames' sexuality is fairly irrelevant. He could be gay. He could be straight. It doesn't really have much impact on the film.

[Qrazy]

I've never understood this conjecture people make about homoerotic subtext and such. Eames isn't gay, and Nolan gives no hint whatsoever that he is, and even if he did, it adds nothing to the film at all. I just don't see any use in speculating about this kind of stuff, especially in this situation where it's in no way implied.

I suppose I agree with you here but in many contexts picking up on this kind of thing does have a big impact on what the film is communicating (see: Most Visconti movies).

[B-side]

I suppose I agree with you here but in many contexts picking up on this kind of thing does have a big impact on what the film is communicating (see: Most Visconti movies).

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't have a place in the discussion of certain films, it just seems like too many people are eager to read in some sort of subversive sexuality that has no real basis in logic other than what that person is bringing to the table.

[amberlita]

I don't get why you presume a character is straight simply because you see no evidence to the contrary. Every fictional character is automatically straight unless it's clearly implied otherwise? Not that I think there's much of a case to be made for Eames' being gay, but I find it more odd when people get uppity at the suggestion that characters are, regardless of whether it adds to the film or not.

Right. It may not impact the plot, but I enjoy considering what the actors bring to a particular role that isn't necessary to the story but rather just brings more life to that character for them and helps broaden their performance. I like the idea that Hardy might have said to himself "I think I'll make Eames gay" just because he thought it would make Eames more interesting. It's fun. Some of the most memorable characters in film had characteristics that weren't necessary.

[Spinal]

Checked IMDb to see if Hardy was actually gay (he's not, he's engaged to a woman) and I found this:

His favorite films include Amadeus, Amelie, Big Lebowski, Bringing Out The Dead, Dog Day Afternoon, Dracula flicks, Full Metal Jacket, Irreversible, La Haine, Man Bites Dog, Meet Joe Black, Mr. Holland's Opus, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Platoon, Princess Bride, Silence Of The Lambs, The Piano, and Time Bandits.

Not bad, but Meet Joe Black? Dude.

[Qrazy]

Obviously we both took something different away from the ending, but I don't see where Nolan suggests that Cobb thinking he is safe is the same as it actually happening or expects us to think that. I too shudder at the thought of Cobb potentially resigned to yet another false reality simply as a means to experience a few more years of a fraudulent life, but the fact that Nolan merely hints at it, planting that seed of doubt while also showing that Cobb has accepted this as his happy ending. How you feel about that is entirely up to you, IMO.

Otherwise, great thoughts on Memento. I haven't seen it since it first came to DVD, so it's about time for a rewatch.

Agreed with this and I think in the thread in general we've covered many of the best reasons why the final ambiguity is so valuable. However I'm just going to throw out there an obvious issue which we haven't spoken about much yet but which deserves a cursory glance. And that is, that if the top had clearly fallen over or if it was completely obvious the final scene were a dream, then the film wouldn't be much of a puzzle. And the film is very much about the act of filmmaking and how audiences interact with a movie, and the way in which plot pieces fall into place as in a maze or puzzle. This I think is one of Nolan's major interests as an auteur and it surfaces repeatedly in the majority of his films.

Nolan pretty much always wants his films to be analyzed, thought about and discussed. Although I ultimately disagree with the position that Cobb is in limbo the entire time I like that the structure of the film raises that possibility and thinking about that structure has certainly made me think more deeply about the film in general. Something I think many of us wouldn't have been as driven to do if there were no basic narrative puzzle to solve. Nolan sets so many of his narratives up as puzzles in order to draw the audience a level deeper. Once you start thinking about how the narrative pieces together you then begin thinking about how these narrative threads tie together on an emotional and thematic level. Because much like the action set pieces in the film, everything is connected. If the narrative is one way versus another, this changes both the emotional and thematic content of the film.

[Qrazy]

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't have a place in the discussion of certain films, it just seems like too many people are eager to read in some sort of subversive sexuality that has no real basis in logic other than what that person is bringing to the table.

Fair.