Terminator: Salvation

[number8]

Revealed in the previews.

Well, even without the trailers...

He is executed 5 minutes into the movie, set in 2003. When he shows up again in 2018, looking exactly the same, you have to know he's a Terminator.

[Ezee E]

Well, even without the trailers...

He is executed 5 minutes into the movie, set in 2003. When he shows up again in 2018, looking exactly the same, you have to know he's a Terminator.
True. Can't tell if the movie wanted it to be a twist or not. At one point in the scriptwriting process they did.

[megladon8]

So...

Was that "John Connor is a Terminator" thing a load of bullshit, or is that the actual ending to the movie?

[Dead & Messed Up]

So...

Was that "John Connor is a Terminator" thing a load of bullshit, or is that the actual ending to the movie?

Go see the movie.
:P

[Dukefrukem]

i can't tell if i should read the spoilers or not

[Ezee E]

i can't tell if i should read the spoilers or not
It's up to you

[Ezee E]

Ha. Ebert agrees with me.
“It gives you all the pleasure of a video game without the bother of having to play it.”

[number8]

This is hilarious (http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-series-of-emails-from-cyberdynes-tech-guy/), but also shows why we probably don't need to worry about machine upheavals.

[Fezzik]

Ha. Ebert agrees with me.

That's actually a very accurate description.

I didn't hate it as much as most, but it left me flat. It certainly doesn't qualify as a Terminator movie in my eyes, but a few parts were fun.

Even when focusing on action, the movie barely registered. Very disappointed.

[Dukefrukem]

It's up to you

fuck.

[number8]

I'LL BE BACK!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_fM_TBn_Do)

[BuffaloWilder]

So, watching Terminator 2, right now - with about twenty or so minutes left. And, there are some really-quite-terrible blue screen shots, in this last scene, with Arnold shooting out of the top of the truck.

EDIT - also, why is the T-1000 screaming in pain after being "terminated?" I mean, the film's made it pretty clear that it's as emotionless as the T-8000 (or, even more so). And, doesn't he even say, "I now know why you cry, but it is something I can never do?" not even five minutes later?

[Sxottlan]

Some thoughts:

-I'll admit to being a bit surprised at the reaction to this film. I quite enjoyed it. Then again, I liked T3 too. The pacing was spot on for me. I enjoyed just about all of the action scenes and found the nature and mystery of Marcus to be fascinating.

-I don't think the film needed another Skynet trick at the very end. I think I would have liked Connor to simply want to save Reese because he was starting to believe his own hype about how he'll save humanity. Despite wanting to save all the prisoners, isn't it really his own neck he's looking to save? I liked that it was ambiguous. For that reason, I liked how there was a reversal of roles, with Connor playing the protector. It's something I hadn't realized must have been a daily worry for Connor, knowing what role Reese will play later.

-The Marcus character really was quite interesting. For his apparent role in infiltrator history as well as showing how Skynet plays more on humanity's need to trust than the machines manipulation of reality for the humans in the Matrix universe: that sense of constant betrayal. Notice how Connor hesitated there for a moment to fire on the T-800? Here was pretty much the biggest father figure from his past coming to kill him and he waits a second, almost like he wanted to remember that for a moment before firing (and use a grenade launcher to strip that away to reveal the robotic skeleton beneath). Interesting too how he has to protect his biological father from his spiritual one.

-Great effects. The Governator was ridiculously realistic to me. Loved the helicopter shot. It didn't serve any kind of real purpose, but looked great anyway. I liked how Resistance Command was mobile. Made sense.

-That said, the machines had a real nasty habit of throwing our heros around when simply breaking their neck would have ended the movie about three different times earlier.

-Also, a rebel base out in the wide open surely would have been eradicated by now. The big stomping machines sure seemed to get the drop on the characters regularly here, so it shouldn't have been a problem for Skynet.

-Too bad also that there didn't seem to be any set up for any follow up films. Just move on to the next Skynet base? Considering the opening weekend gross, a follow up doesn't seem likely. It's a shame, because I'd almost like to see Skynet win, just so we can get an idea of just what in the heck Skynet will do afterwards. Develop a machine culture?

[number8]

-Great effects. The Governator was ridiculously realistic to me.

This was the biggest surprise. If I didn't know any better, I'd say they found his 20 years younger long lost twin. The CG face was insanely lifelike.

[Dukefrukem]

Some thoughts:

-I'll admit to being a bit surprised at the reaction to this film. I quite enjoyed it. Then again, I liked T3 too. The pacing was spot on for me. I enjoyed just about all of the action scenes and found the nature and mystery of Marcus to be fascinating.

-I don't think the film needed another Skynet trick at the very end. I think I would have liked Connor to simply want to save Reese because he was starting to believe his own hype about how he'll save humanity. Despite wanting to save all the prisoners, isn't it really his own neck he's looking to save? I liked that it was ambiguous. For that reason, I liked how there was a reversal of roles, with Connor playing the protector. It's something I hadn't realized must have been a daily worry for Connor, knowing what role Reese will play later.

-The Marcus character really was quite interesting. For his apparent role in infiltrator history as well as showing how Skynet plays more on an interesting aspect of humanity to exploit it than the machines did to the humans in the Matrix universe: namely, playing on our need to trust and the constant betrayal. Notice how Connor hesitated there for a moment to fire on the T-800? Here was pretty much the biggest father figure from his past coming to kill him and he waits a second, almost like he wanted to remember that for a moment before firing (and use a grenade launcher to strip that away to reveal the robotic skeleton beneath). Interesting too how he has to protect his biological father from his spiritual one.

-Great effects. The Governator was ridiculously realistic to me. Loved the helicopter shot. It didn't serve any kind of real purpose, but looked great anyway. I liked how Resistance Command was mobile. Made sense.

-That said, the machines had a real nasty habit of throwing our heros around when simply breaking their neck would have ended the movie about three different times earlier.

-Also, a rebel base out in the wide open surely would have been eradicated by now. The big stomping machines sure seemed to get the drop on the characters regularly here, so it shouldn't have been a problem for Skynet.


I agree with most of what you said here. I liked this movie a lot. Much more than T3. If I still had to rank them;

T2
T4
T1
T3

Like you said, the pace is well done, especially with the Marcus character. There may even be more shots of Marcus than there is of Conner. The PG-13 rating was barely noticeable. The only big difference is the fact that no one is dropping an F bomb every two seconds. The big complaints I have are towards the end; I hated Marcus 'linking' with Skynet and him learning everything about the past in two seconds. I hated what the Skynet city looked like (even though I was half expecting the Machine City from the Matrix) I also hated that there was only 1 Terminator chasing them at the end. They're in Skynet. Shouldn't there be an army of Terminators walking around?




-Too bad also that there didn't seem to be any set up for any follow up films. Just move on to the next Skynet base? Considering the opening weekend gross, a follow up doesn't seem likely. It's a shame, because I'd almost like to see Skynet win, just so we can get an idea of just what in the heck Skynet will do afterwards. Develop a machine culture?

They're already talking about a fifth film.



This was the biggest surprise. If I didn't know any better, I'd say they found his 20 years younger long lost twin. The CG face was insanely lifelike.

They did a fantastic job! The last couple of movies I've seen have been really impressive effects wise. I couldn't tell it was CGI and this makes me believe all the hype for the effects in Avatar.

BTW, Cameron really does need to return to this franchise.

[number8]

Putting this dreck above the first Terminator should by punishable by offense. I sentence you to three T-800 throwing-around.

[Milky Joe]

Putting this dreck above the first Terminator should by punishable by offense. I sentence you to three T-800 throwing-around.

Agreed. I watched the first one last night after seeing Salvation. I had never seen it before. It's so, so much better.

[Dukefrukem]

Putting this dreck above the first Terminator should by punishable by offense. I sentence you to three T-800 throwing-around.

The first one doesn't do it for me anymore. There's about two scenes I look forward to when watching it and one of them happens in the first 5 minutes. It hasn't aged very well. T2 on the other hand has held up great.

The first three terminators are cookie cutters of themselves. Salvation was the first that actually deviated from the: 'someone comes back from the future to save, someone comes back from the future to kill (each time coming back more advanced)' plan. I'm into the Marcus story.

[Dukefrukem]

So $56 mil is the est. Thats not too bad. It's not as good as Wolverine or ST but it's not bad. They're probably disappointed with those numbers and that N@theM beat them.

[number8]

...and that N@theM beat them.

I don't think anyone is surprised by this. Especially not the studios. Every Hollywood insider pretty much thought this was a given.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I don't think anyone is surprised by this. Especially not the studios. Every Hollywood insider pretty much thought this was a given.

I don't think it even takes a Hollywood insider to figure that the more family-oriented film will do better on a holiday weekend.

[Ezee E]

I don't think it even takes a Hollywood insider to figure that the more family-oriented film will do better on a holiday weekend.
Or the fact that it was in nearly 1000 more theaters.

[Sxottlan]

It's interesting comparing Connor here to the Connor from the now defunct television series. In the show, Future Connor really seemed to fit the messianic role described in the earlier films. You never saw him, only talking through intermediaries (often reprogrammed machines) and always spoken of as though he's in an endless chess game with Skynet.


I hated what the Skynet city looked like (even though I was half expecting the Machine City from the Matrix) I also hated that there was only 1 Terminator chasing them at the end. They're in Skynet. Shouldn't there be an army of Terminators walking around?

You'd think so. Or better security for the T-800 battery packs. They're nuclear, but there's four just sitting on a desk somewhere. :lol:


They're already talking about a fifth film.

After this weekend though? I guess we'll see how things progress, but at this point I'd guess the talk of a trilogy is dead on the vines.

[Dukefrukem]

After this weekend though? I guess we'll see how things progress, but at this point I'd guess the talk of a trilogy is dead on the vines.

Well the studios are fighting over distribution rights.

And Maybe Marcus turned off all the defense turrets and scouts and whatnot, preventing Skynet to be unguarded.

[Dead & Messed Up]

After this weekend though? I guess we'll see how things progress, but at this point I'd guess the talk of a trilogy is dead on the vines.

I think another sequel is likely. The film's probably going to bank $120 million in the US, and if they play their cards right overseas, it could tally a grand total of $300 million worldwide, possibly even more.

They'll probably reduce the budget for the next one, though.

[number8]

It'll be big overseas, definitely. Japan, especially.

[Skitch]

Enjoyed the film, but felt sliced and diced. Will reserve final judgement till I see the whole film.

Loooooooved when Conner set the radio down and started blaring the same Guns n Roses song he was jammin' to in T2. :)

[Dukefrukem]

Loooooooved when Conner set the radio down and started blaring the same Guns n Roses song he was jammin' to in T2. :)

I liked that too.

[Raiders]

I don't have much to say, but honestly this was atrocious. I like the McG of the Charlie's Angels films because his approach of monotonous characters ratcheted up by overdone CGI explosions fits the mold of those overblown, cheesy action movies. But, when you take over this franchise and set SERIOUS Christian Bale as your leading actor, McG is not the man you want helming the project.

I honestly thought that after T3 I couldn't care any less about Judgment Day and mankind's future. I was wrong. I think it worked better as an impending apocalypse than it does as an actual apocalypse. It reminds me of the first season of Heroes where the build-up, the foreshadowing and the puzzles were the best parts. Once it actually got the exploding man, it felt flat and dull, like all the energy was used up creating this vision of an apocalypse and when it arrived, it fizzled out. This is a dull, dim-witted war movie with big explosions and little character, particularly from its leading man.

[Milky Joe]

After seeing this movie, I went back and watched all three previous Terminator films over the weekend (T1 for the first time), and man, this movie sucked in comparison. Even T3 I found, if nothing else, to be a deliriously fun action movie. It's rare that action scenes will have me laughing hysterically, tears streaming down my face. It was weird, but it happened, and I'm pretty sure it was intentional. T4, in comparison, was sooo drab and sooo *not* fun. At all.

T2 > T1 > T3 >>>> T4

[Pop Trash]

After seeing this movie, I went back and watched all three previous Terminator films over the weekend (T1 for the first time), and man, this movie sucked in comparison. Even T3 I found, if nothing else, to be a deliriously fun action movie. It's rare that action scenes will have me laughing hysterically, tears streaming down my face. It was weird, but it happened, and I'm pretty sure it was intentional. T4, in comparison, was sooo drab and sooo *not* fun. At all.

T2 > T1 > T3 >>>> T4

Yeah I never really got the hate for T3. I remember it being pretty funny/entertaining and one of the first movies that made jokes about the aging of its 80s action hero (which Live Free or Die Hard did pretty well also)

[Dukefrukem]

Man I really don't see T3 being better than T4 at all. Arnold looks old, its the same damn movie as T2 only shorter and suckier. There's no real cliamx except making it to the bunker and even that was waterered down.

[number8]

T3 sucked ass, for sure. Suckier than Salvation? I don't think so.

[megladon8]

Duke sometimes your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Arnie appearing older than T2 shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not the movie is quality. It's like saying one of the reasons why the Matrix sequels weren't as good as the original is that Laurence Fishburne had gained a bit of weight.

I thought the truck sequence in T3 was one of the best action sequences in the whole series.

[number8]

Duke sometimes your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Arnie appearing older than T2 shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not the movie is quality. It's like saying one of the reasons why the Matrix sequels weren't as good as the original is that Laurence Fishburne had gained a bit of weight.

I don't know why I'm making the argument for him since I agree with you, but I guess you (he) can say that it makes no sense for a robot off the assembly line to be aging. That's the difference between T-800/850 and Morpheus.

[Milky Joe]

Arnold was the best part of T3. And it didn't suck ass. It was fun as hell, and didn't take itself too seriously (*cough*T4*cough*).

[number8]

I don't know why I'm making the argument for him since I agree with you, but I guess you (he) can say that it makes no sense for a robot off the assembly line to be aging. That's the difference between T-800/850 and Morpheus.

Come to think of it, why does Arnold change his hairstyle in every movie? Is there a barber sitting at Skynet with a mob of naked Austrian men queuing in front of him?

"Okay, for you, #NGG-326281-XB, a bob cut! Hoo-yaay!"

[Dead & Messed Up]

Come to think of it, why does Arnold change his hairstyle in every movie?

The robots don't want a Terminator to look, you know, out of place.

[megladon8]

I would kill to see a Terminator movie where Arnie has a bowl-cut.

That would probably make me explode.

[lovejuice]

Arnold was the best part of T3. And it didn't suck ass. It was fun as hell, and didn't take itself too seriously (*cough*T4*cough*).
i actually like T3 because of how serious it tries to be (or thinks it's). it's the bleakest of the series. cameron ends T2 with a hopeful note that a man can befriend a machine. the whole point of T3 is that a machine is just that.

[Milky Joe]

i actually like T3 because of how serious it tries to be (or thinks it's).

Huh.


it's the bleakest of the series. cameron ends T2 with a hopeful note that a man can befriend a machine. the whole point of T3 is that a machine is just that.

How was that the whole point? Arnold is practically a human in T3. The ending may be the bleakest of the series (any movie that ends with nuclear holocaust is OK by me), but the movie itself is by far the lightest in tone. "Your levity is good. It relieves tension, and the fear of death."

[lovejuice]

for example, in T3, there is one scene that arnie is hacked by nano-thingies from the chick terminator. conner has to remind him that he's about to fail his duty. that is, he's about to fail as a machine.

i find it very anti-cameron. cameron will go something along the line like the bond between the two is what sets him right.

[number8]

The setup itself is a reality check, as well. There's that scene where Connor asks the T-850 about "Hasta La Vista" and all that, and he doesn't know what the hell Connor's talking about. It continues the father-son relationship of a boy and a machine by erasing it completely. They never did re-bond in T3, Arnold's role was pretty much just to be a robotic bodyguard.

[Dukefrukem]

Duke sometimes your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Arnie appearing older than T2 shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not the movie is quality. It's like saying one of the reasons why the Matrix sequels weren't as good as the original is that Laurence Fishburne had gained a bit of weight.

I thought the truck sequence in T3 was one of the best action sequences in the whole series.

That's not my entire reason why T3 sucked just something I'm nit picking at. I feel the movie didn't add any elements to the Terminator story that were profound or critical enough to win over an audience.

Yeah great, the 1 minute truck sequence was cool with crane scene. I'll give you that. What else is cool? Nothing really. At least T4 added something different to think about. I'm retracting my T4 > T1 statement. I watched it last night and there was some awesome stuff I forgot about. Like Arnold removing his eye. What a cool scene.

I'd go as far to say I'd watch T4 over T3 for the special effects alone. That's how bad I think T3 is.

[Dukefrukem]

Huh.



How was that the whole point? Arnold is practically a human in T3. The ending may be the bleakest of the series (any movie that ends with nuclear holocaust is OK by me), but the movie itself is by far the lightest in tone. "Your levity is good. It relieves tension, and the fear of death."

Oh my god I forgot about that. The whole reverse psychology act when they were in the cemetery was SO FUCKING STUPID!

[Milky Joe]

Yeah great, the 1 minute truck sequence was cool with crane scene. I'll give you that. What else is cool? Nothing really.

You should watch T3 again.

[megladon8]

My friends were telling me about some of the hilariously awesome (awful?) dialogue in this last night.

"Now I know what death tastes like."

And Bale being asked by Howard "what should I tell them [about your leaving]?"

"Tell them...I'll be back."

:lol:

Awesome.

[Dukefrukem]

You should watch T3 again.

It's on FX almost every week.

[Sycophant]

It's on FX almost every week.

That's a good point.

[number8]

"Now I know what death tastes like."

I liked that line. Worthington delivered it perfectly.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I liked that line. Worthington delivered it perfectly.

Wow.

That line made me want to line up the writers in a row, drop my pants, and piss across their faces.

[number8]

Wow.

That line made me want to line up the writers in a row, drop my pants, and piss across their faces.

Writer, actually. Singular. That was the scene Jonathan Nolan added.

There's plenty of lines in the movie that make me feel the same ("Tell them... I'll be back." and "You killed my father. You killed my mother. You will not kill me!" and "WHAT ARE YOU?" "I don't know..."), but the only two lines that I actually like were that and Kyle Reese's "We bury our dead."

[Dead & Messed Up]

Writer, actually. Singular. That was the scene Jonathan Nolan added.

There's plenty of lines in the movie that make me feel the same ("Tell them... I'll be back." and "You killed my father. You killed my mother. You will not kill me!" and "WHAT ARE YOU?" "I don't know..."), but the only two lines that I actually like were that and Kyle Reese's "We bury our dead."

I liked Reese's little pep talk to that group of survivors. "Stay alive in here...and in here." One of the few times the "heart" motif was portrayed subtly.

[The Mike]

I liked that line. Worthington delivered it perfectly.

I agree there.

The I'll be back was poorly delivered, but it had to be there.

I did do a trucker pull when Kyle Reese got to deliver his flashback line.

If this movie only focused on Marcus Wright and he, and set up the Connor stuff for a sequel, it would have ruled.

[Henry Gale]

If this movie only focused on Marcus Wright and he, and set up the Connor stuff for a sequel, it would have ruled.

You probably already know how that was the original plan with Bale playing Wright, but then later on Bale became set on playing Connor instead and they decided to expand that role, etc. But in the end, I agree. Right now what we're left with just feels like they had spent so much time on Wright that they couldn't just throw away the idea completely. So they tried to keep as much of what they had while adding a lot of John Connor stuff, but in the end that caused both sides to seem a bit pointless in the way they function in the plot.

I'm actually quite suprised no one has posted this (http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2009/05/the-terminator.html) yet. It's McG and Bale talking about the original ending for the very first time and... it could have actually been something interesting compared to what we have now. If that was the note the movie ended on, then I would probably have much different feelings on it overall (even if that doesn't mean liking it any more or less).

SPOILERS in that link, though. Even if what is being spoiled is exactly what you don't see at the end of Salvation.

[number8]

I still think the ending is hilarious, when Connor tells Reese that he has finally deserved the jacket.

The Resistance: You are not a real man until you get captured, do nothing and then rescued by your own son.

[Dukefrukem]

Isn't there also two other movies planned? Or was that also scrapped when Bale played Connor? This was supposed to be the first of a new trilogy, even though the ending to Salvation didn't forshadow anything.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Isn't there also two other movies planned? Or was that also scrapped when Bale played Connor? This was supposed to be the first of a new trilogy, even though the ending to Salvation didn't forshadow anything.

The time-travel hasn't even been addressed, and there are loose ends (plot holes) to be tied up, like:

How exactly did the machines know about Kyle Reese?
Are there other "sleeper cell" robots out there, Cylon style?
How did Claire Danes turn into Bryce Dallas Howard?

[lovejuice]

How did Claire Danes turn into Bryce Dallas Howard?
remind me of bello's first line in Mummy 3. hilarious.

[Dukefrukem]

The time-travel hasn't even been addressed, and there are loose ends (plot holes) to be tied up, like:

How exactly did the machines know about Kyle Reese?
Are there other "sleeper cell" robots out there, Cylon style?
How did Claire Danes turn into Bryce Dallas Howard?

I don't expect any of those questions to be answered unless they call JJ Abrams. Especially the Kyle Reese question; There's gonna hafta be some serious paradox shit going on.. I can't even think of a scenario where you have to tell someone to go back in time to the 1990s to have sex with your mom so you can be born.

[Dead & Messed Up]

remind me of bello's first line in Mummy 3. hilarious.

Didn't see that one. What'd she say?


I don't expect any of those questions to be answered unless they call JJ Abrams. Especially the Kyle Reese question; There's gonna hafta be some serious paradox shit going on.. I can't even think of a scenario where you have to tell someone to go back in time to the 1990s to have sex with your mom so you can be born.

All he has to do is tell him to protect his mom. The sex comes of their own accord.

[lovejuice]

I don't expect any of those questions to be answered unless they call JJ Abrams. Especially the Kyle Reese question; There's gonna hafta be some serious paradox shit going on.. I can't even think of a scenario where you have to tell someone to go back in time to the 1990s to have sex with your mom so you can be born.

i kinda wish they had enough gut to make reese conner's son.

[megladon8]

I don't expect any of those questions to be answered unless they call JJ Abrams. Especially the Kyle Reese question; There's gonna hafta be some serious paradox shit going on.. I can't even think of a scenario where you have to tell someone to go back in time to the 1990s to have sex with your mom so you can be born.


I'd pretty much just word it like that.

[Dukefrukem]

All he has to do is tell him to protect his mom. The sex comes of their own accord.

No because that was the reason it was so important for them to rescue Kyle. There has to be something else in the mix. Unless they really didn't think that far ahead and I'm just trying to convince myself.

[Dead & Messed Up]

No because that was the reason it was so important for them to rescue Kyle. There has to be something else in the mix. Unless they really didn't think that far ahead and I'm just trying to convince myself.

Oh, no, I agree that's the reason, but I don't like the idea that, in the first movie, Reese's mission was to impregnate Connor. That always seemed more like something unexpected that developed. At least within that narrative.

John Connor obviously knows about his father, but he doesn't necessarily have to impart that knowledge to Reese. All he has to do is tell Reese to protect his mother. The time-sex will work itself out.

[Dukefrukem]

Oh, no, I agree that's the reason, but I don't like the idea that, in the first movie, Reese's mission was to impregnate Connor. That always seemed more like something unexpected that developed. At least within that narrative.

John Connor obviously knows about his father, but he doesn't necessarily have to impart that knowledge to Reese. All he has to do is tell Reese to protect his mother. The time-sex will work itself out.

Ah I see. Well what I don't like about paradoxes is, what if Conner doesn't send Kyle back? Nothing will change. They're still in the future. It's not like the past matters anymore.

[Milky Joe]

I'm still not even sure how necessary it is for Reese to be sent back. I mean Conner exists so obviously it happened already? How will he know when to send him back? Did Conner know originally when he sent Reese back that he would be his father? Didn't sending Reese back change the future sufficiently that, when he does it again, something completely different might happen? The more I think about it the less sense it makes.


Ah I see. Well what I don't like about paradoxes is, what if Conner doesn't send Kyle back? Nothing will change. They're still in the future. It's not like the past matters anymore.

Precisely.

[Dead & Messed Up]

That's why time-travel only works in a closed system. Alternate timelines cause more problems than they're worth.

Remember when Doc Brown warned Marty about how altering the past improperly could result in a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of space-time and destroy the entire universe?

I want to see that shit happen.

It sounds awesome.

[Dukefrukem]

That's why time-travel only works in a closed system. Alternate timelines cause more problems than they're worth.

Remember when Doc Brown warned Marty about how altering the past improperly could result in a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of space-time and destroy the entire universe?

I want to see that shit happen.

It sounds awesome.

Yeh I like that. Maybe one day Conner will decide not to send Kyle back and be playing the air guitar to Guns n Roses and start to disappear. The end.

[number8]

Of course, in this movie Connor's like openly telling people that Kyle Reese is his dad. You'd think someone would tell Kyle this at some point.

"Man, Connor is so brave. Did you see him when he took down that --"
"Yeah yeah yeah your son's the shit. Enough with the bragging already."
"My... what?"
"Oops."

[Dead & Messed Up]

Yeh I like that. Maybe one day Conner will decide not to send Kyle back and be playing the air guitar to Guns n Roses and start to disappear. The end.

This sounds better than McG's plans for the next flick.

[number8]

Did Conner know originally when he sent Reese back that he would be his father? Didn't sending Reese back change the future sufficiently that, when he does it again, something completely different might happen? The more I think about it the less sense it makes

This is actually a debate in the Terminator fanbase. Some think that Reese was not Connor's dad in the original timeline, but when he sent Reese back in time, he slept with Sarah Connor and became John's dad, thus altering the universe forever.

[Dukefrukem]

Here's a weird question. Why didn't they just cast Edward Furlong as John Conner in T3?

[megladon8]

But then who would Connor's dad have been in the first place?

Sum Yun Guy?

They really do need JJ Abrams to take over. He could write the shit out of this story.

[megladon8]

Here's a weird question. Why didn't they just cast Edward Furlong as John Conner in T3?


Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I think he had some drug / legal problems at the time.

I seem to remember him being arrested at one point, but part of my brain is telling me that I'm thinking of the son from The Sopranos.

[number8]

But then who would Connor's dad have been in the first place?

Sum Yun Guy?

Yeah, some nobody. I'm thinking that in that original timeline, even Sarah Connor is a nobody. John just grew up normal, joined the military or something or other, and just end up being a Resistance leader.

I always thought what was so interesting with T2 was the idea that the future was unpredictable not just because Terminators were coming to get them, but also because the experience in T1 really compromised John's future as a leader, making him a bratty delinquent with a crazy mother. They had to really work to ensure that John becomes who Reese said he's supposed to be, and they risk fucking that up with every action they take. They already did.

[The Mike]

I assumed Furlong wasn't back because, y'know, he sucks.

[number8]

Nonsense. He was awesome in The Crow 4.

[Skitch]

While the movie is weak, I did think Worthington did a fantastic job...even with some of the terrible dialogue he was given. I think I'm seeing what Cameron was seeing...

[Skitch]

Nonsense. He was awesome in The Crow 4.

Dammit I need to see that.

[megladon8]

I can't believe how blatantly this movie is trying to compete with Transformers.

There's even a documentary on the new T2 Blu-Ray (release coincided with this one's theatrical) titled "More Than Meets the Eye".

[Pop Trash]

This was pretty mind numbing. It's so loud and explosive that it was hard to have many thoughts while you're watching it. It seems like if there was any downtime in the screenplay, McG would just add more crap blowing up. Some of the usual Terminator "man vs. machine" philosophy seemed interesting as I watched it but later when I thought about it, it dawned on me that most of it was cribbed from the earlier Terminator movies (mostly the Cameron ones that had a certain poetic verve in the storytelling, direction, and even in the action sequences)

As far as the actors go, Anton Yelchin seemed to fare the best. At least he had a personality. Christian Bale seemed loud, angry, and one note (which is how you could describe the movie in general) Sam Worthington was uncharismatic.

I suppose there were a few inspired moments.
I have to admit I didn't see the twist that Worthington's character was actually a terminator coming. During the first half I was wondering why exactly we were following his story at all.

But even if you punched up the screenplay into something better, McG's more is more direction would still get in the way. I still think he's better here than Michael Bay. At least it seemed like McG was trying. Michael Bay seems to knowingly put lots of stupid crap in his movies and it's like he just doesn't give a shit. McG (at least here) doesn't quite stoop to that level.

It's about a 5/10 for me.

[Dukefrukem]

I suppose there were a few inspired moments.
I have to admit I didn't see the twist that Worthington's character was actually a terminator coming. During the first half I was wondering why exactly we were following his story at all.


Did you watch any trailers?

[Pop Trash]

Did you watch any trailers?

I guess not. Why? Did the trailers give it away? That would be pretty lame.

[number8]

Yeah, but I thought it was pretty obvious even if you never saw the trailers. I mean, they showed him dying in the first 5 minutes, right after he signed a contract to donate his body to cyberdine. How can you not know?

[Pop Trash]

Yeah, but I thought it was pretty obvious even if you never saw the trailers. I mean, they showed him dying in the first 5 minutes, right after he signed a contract to donate his body to cyberdine. How can you not know?

Guess I wasn't paying attention. I think my line of thinking was "who are these people and why is a Terminator movie starting on death row?" I think I was also distracted by Helena Bonham Carter being in the movie and having no hair or something.

[Skitch]

I thought it would have helped the film if it hadn't been so obvious he was terminator of sorts...and yes, the trailers hinted that he was.

[number8]

...and yes, the trailers hinted that he was.

Connor: You think you're human?
Marcus: I am human.
*Connor releases chains, Marcus looks down at his own chest*
Marcus: Nooooooooooo!

Connor to Marcus: You killed my mother. You killed my father, Kyle Reese. You will not kill me.

Connor: What are you?!
Face Half-Exposed Marcus: I don't know...


Yeah, that's more than a "hint".

[Skitch]

I meant that to be sarcastic. I should have used quotations.

[Morris Schæffer]

A cool little feature by Empire Magazine:

http://www.empireonline.com/features/terminator-timeline/

[EvilShoe]

This was pretty awful.
I have to agree with E & Ebert who compared this to a videogame where you don't get to play. I was thinking the exact same thing while watching.

McG's also a very limited director. His technical tricks feel forced at times, making the movie seem more like a demo reel.
Bale was boring in this, Worthington & Yelchin did fine.

I'd rank it behind T3, which I didn't care for but was more watchable.

[EvilShoe]

Also: Matthew McConaughey leaping onto a dragon with an axe in Reign of Fire >> Worthington leaping onto a Skynet ship with an axe.

Bale needs to stay away from the post-apocalyptic genre.

[Morris Schæffer]

I've cooked up a review:


Part of what makes the original trilogy, albeit really the first two, memorable is seeing a solitary terminator leaving a trail of destruction in the present, annihilating everything in its path with reckless, single-minded determination while humanity goes about its daily business, oblivious, unaware of the impending apocalypse. Indeed, if two single words describe Cameron's offerings and in particular the 1984 entry, "unbearable" and "relentless" would be apt descriptors. Thus, despite the increase in firepower and mankind's remaining (American) survivors joining the resurgence, it isn't outside the realm of reason to expect a titanic and collossally epic war film. If one cyborg is very bad news, imagine what busloads of them can do. While McG's entry is always watchable, said reasoning, regrettably, proves to be faulty. T4 fails to emerge as the mother of all showdowns. Although sequels five and six may well see the battle escalate, the desperation and death toll ratcheted up a notch or two, Terminator: Salvation feels very much like a newborn franchise running out of narrative steam prematurely. It didn't make me anticipate future installments.

To be fair, no one should have expected Terminator: Salvation to reach the lofty heights attained by the 1984 and 1991 installments. Indeed, when T4 begins, all is well. The familiar theme blares out of the speakers and excitement, despite realistic expectations, was unmistakably present. Right from the start, the film looks persuasively apocalyptic, the color desaturization a cool, albeit hardly original, touch by McG and the action, though perhaps too reminiscent of sci-fi classics such as The Road Warrior (hello verbally challenged kid!), sufficiently visceral, plausible and exciting. This isn't Cameron at the helm, but that's all right since McG at least proves that he can do testosterone - the one take helicopter sequence was superb! - that's considerably distantiated from the zany, colorful proceedings of his Charlie's Angels flicks. Several new terminators storm onto the battlefield and while it is certainly interesting to see the universe expand beyond the confines of the original movies, the drawback is that none of the new additions manage to instill the same heartstopping terror that their predecessors (the ones without inflatable titties) did. A pity as the potential was certainly there. The T-600 in particular looks ghoulishly creepy, but is merely glimpsed when it is overseeing the arrival of freshly captured humans and features more heavily in an earlier shootout with Kyle Reese and Marcus Wright. Nonetheless, if Terminator: Salvation makes one thing clear, it is that the robots have devolved from unstoppable killing machines to something approaching cannon fodder. Remember that bit in the original Terminator where an infiltrator unit has located a rebel hideout and starts blasting away at hapless civilians with a purple-ish laser while its red eyes light up ominously in the hazy corridor? I can't imagine it would have required oodles of talent to include a few such moments, but you won't find them in McG's Terminator. To be fair, with opposing forces being so buff and militaristic and thus far removed from the frail bodies of Edward Furlong and 1984 Linda Hamilton, the sense of dread and fear did stand a good chance of being diminished although the same cannot be said about James Cameron's Aliens. Perhaps a tighter sense of focus and a stronger grasp of location would have served McG well. Not once did I fear these adversaries so preoccupied is this film with chases, explosions and firefights, but I suppose the new bots (chief among them the motor terminators) look wicked.

I could have done without the Marcus Wright (Sam Worthington) character. I think the film would have survived, and possibly thrived, without him to be frank. I can't entirely critique Worthington's portrayal of a tortured soul since the Aussie newcomer does appear to be going places, but I also can't help but feel this is Connor and Reese's show or at the very least should have been. Although all Terminator movies have seen the principal good guy (s) befriended by a protector, a guardian, Marcus Wright felt like a facile plot device that severely undermined the intensity of the climax. In general though, what's lacking here is human warmth and a pervasive feeling that we are in the presence of soon to be heroic and pivotal characters in the battle for mankind's endurance. Hints are present and accounted for such as Connor disobeying orders (From Michael Ironside! That's how hard he is!!), but the performance by Bale is dull, unimpassioned, punctuated by bouts of yelling into a microphone although the script affords him scant little opportunity to do anything else. I remember feeling a surge of excitement and joy at Kirk's "Yeah we do" when prompted by McCoy's "we've got no Captain," and seeing the most fabled chair in sci-fi subsequently filled by Chris Pine's James T. Kirk. Connor arrives as nearly fully formed, barking orders left and right, and although that's arguably what the future leader of the resistance would do, it doesn't make for an especially captivating central character. There are no flaws, no regrets, no frailty, there's no reminiscing about the past, there's no transformation, no sense of a man maturing into the mythical, heroic leader of the rebellion. Would I trust this man to save my ass? Yes, but I don't think I'd look up to him, revere him. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether that's the point or not. Future films will certainly see the Connor character grow in stature, but I can't say I'm greatly anticipating the man's continuing exploits.

I'm not sure this Terminator is superior to the last one. It does take the franchise into a new direction hereby avoiding overt comparisons to Cameron's classics, but feels disturbingly similar, and vastly inferior, come apotheosis time. Certainly, as a fan of the franchise and someone who is rather easily entertained, thought certainly not always enraptured, by summer entertainment, I can say that I wasn't bored in the least by what McG had to offer. No doubt aided by the nostalgia factor, I had a blast with the opening thirty minutes, but felt that the film failed to sustain its momentum. The herculean struggle for survival, evident in previous Terminator films, was largely absent, the final charge against Skynet's main headquarters (I think I saw a stapler terminator!) offering much that T2's finale did (unstoppable cyborgs, resuscitations, molten ore, voice fakery etc...), but with only an increment of the underpants-soiling threat of the 1991 offering, let alone the 1984 one.

Finally, two simple words. Brad. Fiedel. I'm not sure what happened to this once awesome composer. Perhaps he decided to bail out when Cameron did. What I do know is that Elfman's score, though not ear-destroyingly awful, barely registers and is as generic a score as I've heard in a long time. Admittedly, calling Fiedel's T2 score subtle would be a stretch, but it did have a rhythmic quality that perfectly complemented the mayhem.

Throughout T4's production, Cormac McCarthy's novel "The Road" was thrown around several times as an inspiration source for the latest entry in the Terminator saga. I've not read the book, but have a fairly good idea of how it tells its narrative, focusing not on bombastic action, but instead spinning a more elegiac, more spiritual tale of survival amidst a world gone to hell. While it would be unreasonable to expect a Terminator film to tonally resemble McCarthy's celebrated novel, traces of philosophical musings, usually accompanied by subtle guitar acoustics, were clearly present in the 1991 sequel lending it a weight that transcended its awe-inspiring action set pieces. Indeed, the titular Judgment Day loomed large over Cameron's protagonists affording the movie a vitality, a sense of humanity and its unwavering desire to endure, and vanquish, the most improbable of odds. Even the inferior, but still tremendously enjoyable T3: Rise of the Machines, after 105 minutes of enormous destruction, culminated into an unexpectedly moving finale as the reality of nuclear war came crashing down with an eerie, almost poetic beauty.

[**]

[Dukefrukem]

I don't agree.

[Rowland]

This plays like geeky fan service, with little in the way of texture or vision, though McG does bring a pulpy, lucid brio to his action sequences that enliven the movie to a mild degree, but offer little in the way of emotional engagement. The movie's most clever idea is buried in the opening minutes, which suggest that the science used to create the Terminators was to some degree rooted in the timeless human desire to cheat death. Otherwise, the insistent heart motif is ridiculously transparent, the mythology impenetrably paradox-ridden, the structure reminiscent of a video game (complete with predictable final boss), and was it a stipulation in Bale's contract to have the name John Conner repeated 83 times throughout the picture?

[Grouchy]

Yeah, this was a disappointment. Not much about it was outright bad, but nothing stood out, the fights were reiterative and I got the same feeling I'd had with T3 - the first two movies are so iconic that all the sequels are good for is paying homage to them instead of advancing the story. John Connor, specially as played by Christian "why so serious" Bale, is a boring as all butt protagonist, esentially a screaming-running-I'll-be-back machine. The adult character had more presence in the two seconds he's standing on screen in T2. I'll repeat what everyone else has said - Sam Worthington's character is a lot more interesting and the movie clearly should have been more about him.

There's also something that kept buggin' me throughout the film. Why the fuck are Terminators so easy to kill? In the helicopter scene Connor shoots a T-800 on the face like, what, for five seconds, and it's already terminated? Right from the start there's a serious problem there.

[number8]

Future bullets, dude. Duh.

[lovejuice]

this is a mildly pleasant surprise. the movie's still not very good, but at least it's made with enough love and reverence. my biggest problem is the "twist" which, if anything, feels obligatory and not very surprising in the least.

action-wise the series have hit the dead end since the second movie. some of the "new" terminators are quite interesting though, and the movie might benefit from showing more of those.

my suggestion to the series is that they go back to the past. the terminator series are always about what lead up to the judgement day.

[megladon8]

Austrian Death Machine's version of the Terminator theme song is better than Danny Elfman's score to this movie.

They should have used it.

Judge for yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ3OyE93ePw)

[Morris Schæffer]

Austrian Death Machine's version of the Terminator theme song is better than Danny Elfman's score to this movie.

They should have used it.

Judge for yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ3OyE93ePw)

Meh. I want Brad Fiedel Meg.

FIEDEL!!!!

[Skitch]

Yeah, this was a disappointment. Not much about it was outright bad, but nothing stood out, the fights were reiterative and I got the same feeling I'd had with T3 - the first two movies are so iconic that all the sequels are good for is paying homage to them instead of advancing the story. John Connor, specially as played by Christian "why so serious" Bale, is a boring as all butt protagonist, esentially a screaming-running-I'll-be-back machine. The adult character had more presence in the two seconds he's standing on screen in T2. I'll repeat what everyone else has said - Sam Worthington's character is a lot more interesting and the movie clearly should have been more about him.

There's also something that kept buggin' me throughout the film. Why the fuck are Terminators so easy to kill? In the helicopter scene Connor shoots a T-800 on the face like, what, for five seconds, and it's already terminated? Right from the start there's a serious problem there.

That wasn't a T-800. The first T-800 was at the end. Meh, don't think I want to debate the pros and cons of this film, I don't. I agree with everything you mentioned.

[Beau]

I can't believe how blatantly this movie is trying to compete with Transformers.

There's even a documentary on the new T2 Blu-Ray (release coincided with this one's theatrical) titled "More Than Meets the Eye".

Woah, now. This "More than Meets the Eye" business comes from the Ultimate Edition DVD of Terminator 2, which was released long before Bay's Transformers. The more you know!

But, really, Terminator: Salvation is aggressively mediocre. There are a few faux long takes that are welcome in today's edit-edit world of indecipherable action, and the film itself is mildly enjoyable, but other than that, it's too mundane to care about.

[The Mike]

Woah, now. This "More than Meets the Eye" business comes from the Ultimate Edition DVD of Terminator 2, which was released long before Bay's Transformers. The more you know!But after Transformers made the catchphrase in the '80s, of course.

Besides, Transformers 2 > Terminator 2.

[Beau]

But after Transformers made the catchphrase in the '80s, of course.

Ah. Sorry, Meg. I was never really into Transformers as a wee lad. More of a GI-Joe and Dino Riders kid.

[Dukefrukem]

I watched this last night because we were talking about timelines in the T6 thread.

Half this movie isn't terrible. It's actually quite better than I remember. Actually, I think I remember liking this move as a whole, but then was convinced by MC in this very thread, how terrible it is. Yes, the Sam Worthington sub plot is stupid. Yes it was a dumb reveal that was spoiled in the trailer. The opening action sequence is quite cool, and so are some of the road chase scenes. In fact, this is the first Terminator film that actually feels like humanity vs the machines. In all other terminators, it's a small group of people, 2-3, fighting against 1 terminator, with an ignorant humanity. Here, we get a pretty good sense of scope of the Resistance fighters, Michael Fucking Ironside is general ranked higher than Connor, and how there's pockets of humanity surviving in a Terminator wasteland. Where this movie really starts to lose it is when one of the "hot" Resistance pilots basically falls in love with Sam's Terminator personality and frees him from Connor. Then Connor has to trust Sam, as a Terminator, which, no one would EVER FUCKING DO IF THIS WAS REAL, to save a teenage Kyle Reese (Anton Yelchin RIP).

So in short, the first half is decent and the action is quite good in comparison with TG and T3, but the plot as whole is dumb, and the ending is dumber.

[Morris Schæffer]

I watched this last night because we were talking about timelines in the T6 thread.

Half this movie isn't terrible. It's actually quite better than I remember. Actually, I think I remember liking this move as a whole, but then was convinced by MC in this very thread, how terrible it is. Yes, the Sam Worthington sub plot is stupid. Yes it was a dumb reveal that was spoiled in the trailer. The opening action sequence is quite cool, and so are some of the road chase scenes. In fact, this is the first Terminator film that actually feels like humanity vs the machines. In all other terminators, it's a small group of people, 2-3, fighting against 1 terminator, with an ignorant humanity. Here, we get a pretty good sense of scope of the Resistance fighters, Michael Fucking Ironside is general ranked higher than Connor, and how there's pockets of humanity surviving in a Terminator wasteland. Where this movie really starts to lose it is when one of the "hot" Resistance pilots basically falls in love with Sam's Terminator personality and frees him from Connor. Then Connor has to trust Sam, as a Terminator, which, no one would EVER FUCKING DO IF THIS WAS REAL, to save a teenage Kyle Reese (Anton Yelchin RIP).

So in short, the first half is decent and the action is quite good in comparison with TG and T3, but the plot as whole is dumb, and the ending is dumber.

Yeah, I don't know why they couldn't just opt for a simple man vs. machine war movie instead. Still, don't know why you would say the action is quite good compared to T3, which has robust, beefy and practical action scenes, just the way we want it right? Salvation has some good action, but most of it is contained in the first half from what I remember.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I liked Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese.

He had some of that reediness and nervousness.

[Dukefrukem]

I liked Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese.

He had some of that reediness and nervousness.

It was also cool, in a sense, that he learned a lot of his skills from a Terminator.
Who then passed on those skills to Sarah.

They should have just made Sam's Terminator a Terminator. Instead of a secret Terminator.

[Skitch]

I'll still take a half-baked Terminator sequel over most DTV sci-fi garbage we get. The scifi guy inside me can't help it. :)