Braden shares some comic book favorites [Archive]

megladon8

11-06-2008, 11:04 AM

I've been wanting to do a "list" thread for a while now - I love making lists. However, I find the pressure of having a numbered "favorites" list to be too much. I always change my mind on things.

So this is just something fun and casual, to share my love of the comic book medium with my fellow Match Cut fiends.

I really believe that comic books are an undervalued art form. Even in this day and age when they are starting to get more and more recognition due to their movie counterparts, they're still seen as childish, pulp entertainment for geeks who live in their parents' basements.

There is some stunning artwork to be found in these books. The art of Alex Ross could be framed and hung on a wall next to any Klimt, Picasso or Da Vinci.

Similarly, there is some poetic, literary writing to be found, and many stories that delve into the human condition, and bring about truly thought-provoking issues. "Watchmen" is one which is both critically heralded and praised by fans the world over, but there are many more out there, both superhero-related and more realistic in their themes and narratives.

While my list will undoubtedly include many of these "staple" books by authors like Frank Miller and Alan Moore, it will also include a lot of more personal choices. Books which affected me. Books that I read at pivotal points in my life, and which I hold dearly.

If I manage to convert some non-comic readers to check a book out, then I'll be thrilled. But really, I'm doing this for myself. I like to share things that I love, I get a lot of enjoyment out of that. And I like to reflect on experiences I've had with these wonderful stories, which have been a part of my life since I was able to read.

So I hope that this list provides some insight into my tastes, and also gives people something to think about the next time they visit a book store, and walk past that little section titled "Graphic Novels".

Enjoy!

-Braden

megladon8

11-06-2008, 11:47 AM

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7981/123tb7.jpg

Beginning in 2002 and running 'til 2004, this series of "Captain Marvel" was critically acclaimed, yet sales were never very high.

The original Captain Marvel (that is, MARVEL's Captain Marvel, not "Shazam" of DC) was a member of an alien race called the Kree, and was named Mar-Vell.

This 2002 run is based around his son, Genis, and his descent into madness.

Given the power of omnipotence, Genis is overwhelmed by the choices he has to make. While he is aware of everything happening in the universe all at once, he can only be in one place at one time.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2703/cm24largexv1.jpg

At the beginning of the run, he must decide between saving an entire planet, or saving a single woman from being raped and murdered. He chooses the planet, using the logic of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (thank you, Spock).

However, after this is done, he comes to see that the young woman who was raped and murdered would have grown up to be a galactic dignitary, who would have effectively brought eternal peace to the entire universe.

Hindsight 20/20, Genis is destroyed by his making the wrong choice, and goes mad in a literal fall from grace.

This series took many loopy twists and turns, going from sci-fi space opera, to snarky black comedy, to all out action. But it was always intriguing and entertaining, and it has remained an intelligent comic book favorite of mine to this day.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9962/1genisuw6.jpg

Ezee E

11-06-2008, 12:39 PM

Never read any Captain Marvel. He looked like the Marvel's answer to Shazam, who looked plain silly.

Do continue!

Grouchy

11-06-2008, 04:14 PM

Good idea. I remember doing something like this back at RT.

D_Davis

11-06-2008, 05:40 PM

Sweet!

megladon8

11-07-2008, 12:30 AM

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7416/39753442jh9.jpg

In my oh-so-very-humble opinion, "Saga of the Swamp Thing" contains Alan Moore's best work as a comic book writer (though his body of work is so immense, I've really just barely scratched the surface).

At the time when Moore took over writing this book, "Swamp Thing"'s sales were so low that they told him he could practically do whatever he wanted. So he did, and he decided to turn this into the story of a monster. Not a superhero, not a tortured man trapped in the body of a monster, not some overblown sci-fi epic. It's a monster story, told from the perspective of the monster himself.

This panel tells so much about Alan Moore tried to say with his run on the series...

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1646/97313182iv0.jpeg

Throughout the run, Swamp Thing's struggle to define himself is a major theme. He has the memories and thoughts of Alec Holland, but he is not Alec Holland anymore.

What really astounded me when I first read this first volume of the series, was Moore's ability to communicate the sheer immensity of Swamp Thing's power. To be connected to (and aware of) all of the goings on in the natural world, all at once, and to have control over these things, is an idea that's quite astounding. It's actually near impossible to wrap your mind around it, unless you read the book and let Alan Moore show you what that power is like.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3869/swampt04ly7.jpg

Moore also treads on some pretty morbid ground here, as he so often does. But the bleakness serves purpose in the story, and is juxtaposed by Swamp Thing's "goodness" (which is actually closer to ambivalence, really).

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3388/swampt03pi2.jpg

This is a horror comic, no doubt. Like Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" series, there is some eerie and often disturbing imagery, but again, Moore's writing really ups the ante here, and while the protagonist is far from being humanistic, it's a very human story, and that's what Moore seems to do best - draw connections between the impossible, and our own world and lives.

EyesWideOpen

11-07-2008, 12:42 AM

There's a Swamp Thing Alan Moore collection coming out that i'm looking forward to, i've heard great things about his run.

megladon8

11-07-2008, 12:47 AM

There's a Swamp Thing Alan Moore collection coming out that i'm looking forward to, i've heard great things about his run.

Yeah that looks great. Totally going to check out that book.

His work on the series is really great (obviously). Hope you enjoy it.

EyesWideOpen

11-07-2008, 12:55 AM

Yeah that looks great. Totally going to check out that book.

His work on the series is really great (obviously). Hope you enjoy it.

Yeah i really haven't read that much Alan Moore stuff, just kind of the essentials (Watchmen, Killing Joke, V for Vendetta, and that DC Alan Moore TPB collection).

megladon8

11-07-2008, 12:59 AM

Yeah i really haven't read that much Alan Moore stuff, just kind of the essentials (Watchmen, Killing Joke, V for Vendetta, and that DC Alan Moore TPB collection).

Check out "Top 10". I loved that one.

It's two volumes, with several storylines that all interconnect and flow together.

It's really great.

Spaceman Spiff

11-07-2008, 01:46 AM

Swamp Thing is great, but I don't think any writer will be able to equal Moore's From Hell.

Grouchy

11-07-2008, 01:54 AM

I have the first TPB (Saga of the Swamp Thing) and many single issue comics from the Spanish edition.

My next Amazon request is probably gonna include all the remaining TPBs.

Oh, and I totally love the issue about the Winchester rifles mansion and the hammering. Or the one where Swampy has sex wth a planet-sized machine.

Winston*

11-07-2008, 02:10 AM

Yeah, Moore's Swamp Thing is great.

I think I read it up to
Swamp Thing ending up on another planet by himself
'cos that's all my library had. Is there more after that?

megladon8

11-07-2008, 05:03 AM

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2752/secretidentityff3.jpg

Young Clark Kent has spent his whole life feeling like he is "different" - but not in the way you may think. He's human, completely. He's grown up in a small, rural town, and has lived a perfectly normal childhood. Superman exists - in the comic books.

Clark has been teased all his life because of his name, and the fact that his parents seem to think he likes when they buy him Superman shirts, Superman books, Superman calendars, Superman everything. In fact, he just wants them to treat him like everyone else. He feels his whole life is a practical joke put on by his family.

But then, one night, something strange happens. He treks to the top of a hill where he often goes to be alone, and decides to sleep there. He wakes up in the middle of the night, and something's just not right - he's floating. No, he's flying.

Over the next short while, Clark comes to find that, for some strange reason, he really does have all of the powers of Superman.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9089/secretidentity3rl1.jpg

"Superman: Secret Identity" is perhaps the most telling story of Superman's humanity, and it's not really a Superman story.

We learn just how different Clark feels, but also how close he feels to humanity, and while he's not really the Superman we all know and love, he takes his costume and his symbol, and tries to use his powers for good.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5353/secretidentity1mt0.jpg

Kurt Busiek's humanistic writing shows in full force here. He really is one of the greatest writers in the medium, because he understands what it is that connects us to literary characters, and he can see those traits and bring them about in even the most unrelatable characters.

As Kent grows up, he falls in love with a young Indian woman named - you guessed it! - Lois Lane. Together, they have children, and also try to discover the secrets behind Clark's powers. Why is he the way he is? Is he human? Was there some secret rocket ship landing? Or some government conspiracy to create a race of "supermen"? Or perhaps he's just a gift to humanity, a modern day savior?

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4387/secretidentity2wl8.jpg

All of these questions are answered, and we see Superman as a PERSON, not as a "god" (a word many have used to defend the position that Superman is more of a deus ex machina than a superhero).

If you have even the slightest interest in Superman. If you have even the slightest interest in comic books. Heck, if you are capable of reading, you should read this book.

Busiek brings life back to a hero that had come to occupy tired, one-note action comic books, and shows us that Superman could very well live just next door.

D_Davis

11-07-2008, 05:08 PM

Secret Identity is good.

While I am not as versed in the superhero milieu as many here, I can say, without a doubt, that Busiek is my favorite writer of these kinds of stories.

Acapelli

11-07-2008, 07:29 PM

Secret Identity is good.

While I am not as versed in the superhero milieu as many here, I can say, without a doubt, that Busiek is my favorite writer of these kinds of stories.
i would agree, if only i hadn't read his superman run from last year which was terribly boring

D_Davis

11-07-2008, 07:31 PM

i would agree, if only i hadn't read his superman run from last year which was terribly boring

I have not read that.

The last thing I read of his were the older Astro City trades.

Pretty much my favorite super hero books.

megladon8

11-07-2008, 10:55 PM

I have not read that.

The last thing I read of his were the older Astro City trades.

Pretty much my favorite super hero books.

Yeah, "Astro City" is incredible.

It'll make an appearance later on in my list.

megladon8

11-07-2008, 11:00 PM

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9003/kingdomcomefm1.jpg

"Kingdom Come" starts on a pretty low note, and gets lower. Much of it is not a happy read. When Superman has given up on humanity, you know we have a problem.

And that's how things begin. The Joker attacks The Daily Planet killing three of Superman's closest human friends. Joker is arrested and brought to court, where he is assassinated. The assassin is then held up by society and the media as a hero, which leads Superman to leave humankind in disgust. He lives in the Fortress of Solitude for 10 years, and so ends the prologue to one of the most epic comic book tales of all time.

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4354/normanmccayrd5.jpg

While the story very much centers on Superman, it is told from the eyes of Norman McCay, a minister whose internal crisis of faith both reflects the impending Armageddon, and comes to affect it directly. The book carries a wonderful religious overtone, as images are lifted directly from the Book of Revelations, and any subtlety behind Superman being a Jesus-like figure is thrown out the window. This is Dogma told with DC characters.

As I said earlier, this story takes place in the future. Even the prologue is quite far in the future, so the main story is seen as being the "next generation" of DC heroes and villains.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3355/52725187hz6.jpg

However, without the influence of Superman, the line between heroes and villains is unclear. Superman's return is prompted by this anarchy - so-called "heroes" and "villains" fight mercilessly on the streets, with no regard for pedestrian casualties or collateral damage.

The scene in which Superman makes his return is beautiful and dramatic, harkening back to his original appearance in the '40s, and giving a modern edge to the scene. Even his new suit reflects his new attitude - no longer adorned in all primary colours, he is now in red, blue and black. Superman has seen the irreparable darkness in humanity, and has even adorned it himself.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1656/43613936bk5.jpg

Upon his return, Superman tries to reform the Justice League. Many new incarnations of key players return, but Batman refuses. He sees Superman's late return as typically narrow-sighted and idealistic, even with Supeman's newfound understanding of humanity's flaws. Batman actually becomes one of the greatest adversaries in the book.

Superman and his new team take many villains captive, holding them in a giant prison, but as any comic book reader knows, a prison filled with villains is not a prison for very long. Of course things go awry, and they are left with an even bigger mess than they started with.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6702/64479692nq8.jpg

Simultaneously political and religious, "Kingdom Come" has something thought-provoking for readers of all kinds. And anyone who feels they would be easily angered by having their beliefs challenged or even just talked about in comic book form would have to be very narrow-sighted to find offense with this work, as it does not condemn the atheistic or the fanatical, the political or those uninterested in politics. It is simply a story of humanity, and the flaws and virtues inherent in all of us, whether we are from Kansas or from Krypton.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2569/35319050wp3.jpg

The artwork by Alex Ross is gorgeous as usual, but his style works best here as it has a very classic feel to it, which fits the timeless story, as well as exemplifying the idea that this book is a reimagining of scripture.

Mark Waid's writing is lyrical and dynamic, and while some may be angered by certain characters' misgivings with each other (the conflict of ideas between Superman and Batman, or the colossal battle between Superman and Captain Marvel), Waid has taken great time to show the characters' true values when pushed to such extremes. Batman is a paranoid cynic, and despite how angry Superman can be with people and how much hope he can lose, he will never be able to truly give up on them.

"Kingdom Come" is truly a work of art, and it's something you should read.

number8

11-07-2008, 11:34 PM

I've recently started to really dislike Alex Ross' art.

megladon8

11-07-2008, 11:38 PM

I've recently started to really dislike Alex Ross' art.

Because all the male characters look the same and are kind of tubby?

number8

11-08-2008, 05:35 AM

Because all the male characters look the same and are kind of tubby?

No, it just looks like photographs of mannequins covered in saran wraps. They feel extremely lifeless, and his subject matters are anything but.

Acapelli

11-08-2008, 07:33 AM

he's good at covers, totally wrong for interiors because of what number8 said

megladon8

11-08-2008, 02:37 PM

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4592/blankets1yw6.jpg

Often when people praise a piece of work for being a "realistic look at relationships" (whether it be comic book, film, novel, song, etc.) I go into it pretty weary. I often find these "realistic" looks at relationships are not realistic at all, and it leads me to wonder what magical fairyland people have been living in, or what delusions they have been operating under.

It's like when women say that "Sex and the City" is just like their lives. "The Simpsons" did a great joke about this, were Patty and Selma sit on a couch smoking cigarettes, shaving their disgustingly hairy legs and generally being quite revolting, and they are watching "Sex and the City" and say "oh my god, it's like their put our life on film" or something like that.

I just very rarely find anything that comes even close to what I have experienced in terms of my love-life. And that's what makes Craig Thompson's "Blankets" such an incredible piece of work - it is not obnoxiously quirky, or filled with soap-opera moments and terrible attempts at drama. It feels quiet, subdued, and more real than pretty much anything I've read on the subject.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5715/blankets4uk4.jpg

Apparently pretty autobiographical, "Blankets" tells the story of Craig, a young man just beginning to enter the "real world". The book begins with some very humorous looks at Craig and his brother, who frequently seek refuge in each others' beds at night due to both the chilling cold, and the nightmarish ideas put in their minds by their religious father.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6743/blankets5oi0.jpg

Now grown up, Craig meets the girl of his dreams - Raina. Beautiful, intelligent, funny, romantic, she is almost the female equivalent of Craig himself. How could the world ever allow something as beautiful as their meeting to fall apart? What possible circumstances could separate these two people, who seem destined to be together?

While it may sound like the makings of a sappy love story (and it is at times, though self-consciously and humorously so) Thompson's minimalist writing and signature black and white artwork make it feel like a slice of life in comic book form. Something that is genuine, not mass-produced or created to sell. That he often ixnays the dialogue to instead have a simple image that conveys the emotions of the scene so well is a skill that many writer/illustrators must be envious of.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/369/blankets6gq3.jpg

Even when sex inevitably comes into the picture, Thompson treats it with a grace that I have never before or again encountered in the medium. While he does show the act itself, it does not feel pornographic in any way, nor does it feel like he has restrained himself. Again, he finds the emotion of the scene, and reveals that tenderness with his slight drawings and dialogue which, when put together, create something very special.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5864/blankets3zk1.jpg

At a heaping 592 pages, "Blankets" looks like something that requires weeks of dedication to read, but this is not true. Jen read it in one afternoon while I was at work. It is a quick read considering its tome-like size, and it's certainly an emotional rollercoaster.

A box of Kleenex will definitely need to be handy while reading this one.

But don't let the potential mushiness of the story deter you. I cannot stress enough how REAL this story feels. Thompson writes from the heart, but not in that cheesy, lovey-dovey way. These two young lovers make asses of themselves, deliver hoaky one-liners in attempts to be flirty, and will remind you of your first crush - your first love - and I'm sure you will fall in love with Thompson's look at mankind's most confusing emotion.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9702/blankets2co5.jpg

Kurosawa Fan

11-08-2008, 02:41 PM

HELLS. YES.

Blankets was literally a book I couldn't put down. I finished it in one sitting. I had poured myself a glass of ice water, and when I was done, the ice had melted and I hadn't taken a single sip.

megladon8

11-08-2008, 02:44 PM

HELLS. YES.

:)

I love Thompson's art.

Have you heard of the band Menomena? The artwork on thier 2007 album was done by him...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71q7uIWYAhL._SS500_.jpg

Kurosawa Fan

11-08-2008, 02:46 PM

I own the album.

BTW, I edited my first post to include my story of reading Blankets, in case you missed it.

megladon8

11-08-2008, 02:50 PM

I own the album.

BTW, I edited my first post to include my story of reading Blankets, in case you missed it.

Yeah I had a similar experience, though my first read was two sittings spread across one day.

It's super-cool to know someone else loved the book as much as I did.

Did you like my brief write-up? I mostly wanted to communicate how very authentic the book felt. It wasn't a book that was like "oh, yeah, the publisher was pressing for a love story so Thompson churned one out".

And I can't imagine his writing going with someone else's artwork, or vice-versa. His writing and art compliment each other nicely.

It's just such a great book. Glad you liked this entry.

Russ

11-08-2008, 04:10 PM

My all-time favorite graphic novel remains Ed the Happy Clown. It won some awards and stuff. Anyone here read it? Meg?

megladon8

11-09-2008, 12:12 AM

My all-time favorite graphic novel remains Ed the Happy Clown. It won some awards and stuff. Anyone here read it? Meg?

No, I haven't even heard of it.

*looks up on Amazon*

megladon8

11-09-2008, 01:23 AM

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8587/daredevil1cp5.jpg

"Daredevil: Yellow" is arguably the best entry in the series of re-imaginings that wonder-team Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale did for Marvel over the years. There was also "Spider-Man: Blue", "Hulk: Gray", and the one currently being worked on is "Captain America: White".

But "Daredevil: Yellow" was the best at really capturing the essence of both the character, and the world they inhabit.

Tim Sale's lush water colour washes bring New York City to vibrant life, and the contrast between these backdrops and the eye-popping vibrancy of Daredevil's yellow and red suit almost outshines Jeph Loeb's great writing.

Beginning on a rather somber note, Matt Murdock swings through New York City in his signature red costume, remembering Karen Page - the love of his life, his secretary at the law office, and the victim of Daredevil's adversary Bullseye.

The narration of the comic book consists of a letter written by Matt Murdock to the dead Karen, as a means to let go of the guilt he feels for not having been able to save her. The book tells of the origin of Daredevil, from the fateful night when his father was murdered, to the love triangle between Matt, Karen, and Foggy Nelson (Matt's best friend and law firm partner).

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/9815/23kb5.jpg

Throughout the book, we see many familiar faces - some old, cheesy adversaries such as The Purple Man (a villain who uses the power of a purple aura to control peoples' minds), to Electro, a more well-known villain who has appeared in both Daredevil and Spider-Man's rogues galleries.

Daredevil has often been called "Marvel's Batman", and this is not just because of his origin story being nearly one and the same, with his father's murder being the catalyst for his crime-fighting adventures. He also uses his presence and the ability to create fear in his opponents, and he is a decidedly darker character.

But the great thing about this book is that it's not all just frowns and grimaces. Loeb and Sale captured the itty-grittiness of the much-loved Frank Miller run of "Daredevil", while also making it a fun and involving story that doesn't make you want to take prozac every time you finish an issue. The action is exciting and beautiful drawn and painted by Loeb, who makes Daredevil's acrobatic skills a real sight to behold.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5445/daredevil2ta1.jpg

One of the coolest parts of the book, for me, was discovering the origin of Daredevil's suit. I had long known that he originally wore the yellow suit, but I had no idea how he came to have it.

As anyone who has seen the Ben Affleck movie knows, Matt Murdock's father was a boxer with some ties to organized crime. When he refuses to take a fall during a fight and win his boss some money, he is gunned down, leading the young Matt Murdock to seek revenge.

The night that Matt's father was killed, he had given Matt his yellow and red robe as a keepsake to remind him of his father, the great boxer. After his father is killed, Matt actually takes that very robe and stitches it together to create the Daredevil costume he wore for his first adventures as The Man Without Fear.

My words certainly don't do the scenes justice, but it's got quite an impact to see him put that suit on for the first time.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/239/daredevil3xs9.jpg

"Daredevil: Yellow" was the first book that got me to take interest in the Daredevil character, and single-handedly made me a life-long fan. I now find him one of the most interesting characters in the Marvel universe, and love finding new material that expands on his mission to rid Hell's Kitchen of crime.

Amnesiac

11-09-2008, 02:16 AM

I just wanted to say... there was some discussion of Menomena in this thread. That is good.

Because they're amazing. I wish they would bring out another album. Friend and Foe is a joy to listen to.

megladon8

11-09-2008, 04:20 AM

I just wanted to say... there was some discussion of Menomena in this thread. That is good.

Because they're amazing. I wish they would bring out another album. Friend and Foe is a joy to listen to.

It's great, but I kind of overdid it last summer, and am still not listening to it regularly again.

It was in my CD player at all times for about 4 weeks straight.

Thompson's art on that album reminds me of the stuff my friends and I used to do during class in high school, to pass the time.

We have 2 or 3 books of completely full pages of doodling all kind of dorky shit. I should find those books.

D_Davis

11-09-2008, 06:28 PM

No, it just looks like photographs of mannequins covered in saran wraps. They feel extremely lifeless, and his subject matters are anything but.

I agree.

Great cover/poster artist, but not so great at interiors.

D_Davis

11-09-2008, 06:33 PM

For fans of Blankets, I cannot recommend the work of Chester Brown enough. Mind blowing stuff, and my favorite artist/writer in the comic book world.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0969670117.01._SX140_SCLZZZZZZ Z_.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2769419867_8d87579d6a.jpg?v=0

Both of these are masterpieces of the medium.

I love that Brown has embraced the words "comic book" and "comic strip". He does not try to add importance to his work by using the phrase "graphic novel", he lets the work add the gravitas, and it does.

These comic books are stunning; two of the most personal stories I've ever read.

Meg - good choice with Daredevil Yellow. That is a really good book.

Sven

11-09-2008, 06:35 PM

Cool list. Keep it up. My two cents:

Love Moore's Swamp Thing, mostly for the art rather than the writing.

Ross's Kingdom Come is the best looking terrible comic I've read. Had he spread it out into two volumes worth of development, it could've been something spectacular. Is too truncated.

Have tried to read Blankets many times, but I cannot get into his sentimentality. Feels too easy.

Am interested in reading the others you mentioned.

D_Davis

11-09-2008, 06:43 PM

Ross's Kingdom Come is the best looking terrible comic I've read. Had he spread it out into two volumes worth of development, it could've been something spectacular. Is too truncated.

Yeah - it does feel more like a recap than an actual narrative.

megladon8

11-09-2008, 08:20 PM

I have a confession to make...I've actually never read anything by Chester Brown.

I must get on that, promptly.

Melville

11-09-2008, 10:00 PM

I have a confession to make...I've actually never read anything by Chester Brown.

I must get on that, promptly.
Louis Riel is amazing. The two that Davis mentioned are also great.

Ezee E

11-09-2008, 10:10 PM

I'll have to give Blankets a try

Grouchy

11-10-2008, 12:51 AM

Love Moore's Swamp Thing, mostly for the art rather than the writing.
Huh... What? Come again?

And yeah, Winston, I think it goes on beyond the "alone in the planet" adventure. Assuming you mean the Blue Planet.

megladon8

11-10-2008, 03:04 AM

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7704/allstar5cm4.jpg

Inspired in part by Marvel's hugely successful "Ultimate" books (including "Ultimate Spider-Man, "Ultimate X-Men" and "The Ultimates"), DC comics began releasing books in 2005 which had similar goals in mind - to use writer/artist wonderteams to re-vamp the major characters, creating easily accessible books which occur in a continuity all their own, so the creators had the freedom to do whatever they wanted with the character without worry about years and years of backstory to honor.

The first book to be released under this "DC All-Star" label was "All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder", which was written by Frank Miller and drawn by Jim Lee. The first issue was pretty neat - Batman's a little more psycho than usual, but that can be expected. After all, it's Frank Miller, right? We're shown the death of Robin's parents, and Batman taking him under his wing immediately after having kind of stalked the kid for quite a while - again, different from anything I've read before, but I can dig it.

Then a big car chase involving the Batmobile and a couple of cop cars occurs. Again, not like this has never happened before - I would be a little concerned if Batman wasn't challenged by the police every once in a while.

But then...Batman kills a couple of cops. Yes, you read correctly. Albeit shown as being crooked cops, Batman has the cops positioned behind the Batmobile, then turns his flaming engines up to full, effectively roasting them alive.

Then this brilliant piece of dialogue occurs, and it becomes clear that not only is this Batman book totally not Batman at all (something I half expected anyways), but it also kind of sucks...

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3870/allstarbatmanpr2.jpg

To say I was worried when I picked up the first issue of "All-Star Superman" would be an understatement. While the team of Grant Morrison (one of my absolute favorites) and Frank Quitely (one of the best artists in the 'biz) seemed like a dream come true, well, so did Frank Miller and Jim Lee.

Luckily, my caution was thrown to the wind when it turned out to be one of the most fun, vibrant, and true-to-the-character books I had read in years. Honestly, this is the best regular-issue Superman series to come out in years...maybe even decades!

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8246/allstar3xb3.jpg

We begin with an incredible deep space rescue, where Superman flies the closest to the sun that he's ever been in order to rescue some astronauts. Upon returning home, he feels different. He's stronger, faster, smarter...but something just isn't right.

He has some tests done, and discovers that being so close to the sun - the source of his powers - has effectively "super-charged" him, but it has also caused a great problem. His body cannot handle all of this raw energy, and before long, he will die.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2338/allstar1jc9.jpg

Through the first few issues, we see some of the most defining character moments of Superman's life, re-imagined and given new life and energy. Clark Kent reveals his secret identity to Lois Lane, Superman's earth father (Jonathan Kent) is killed, he and Jimmy Olsen become friends - it's all here, and it all feels fresh and new, and you don't need to know anything about Superman or his many bazillions of previous stories to be able to understand and enjoy this book.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4948/allstar2qr9.jpg

It's surprisingly touching, too. After revealing his identity to Lois, he brings her to the Fortress of Solitude, where he seems to be acting a bit strange. There's one room in the Fortress that he insists she do not go in, and she's beginning to worry. Is there a weapon in there? Plans for some world domination plot?

But when he finally reveals the contents of the room to her, it's a sweet moment, where he gives her the greatest birthday gift ever - using the technology passed down to him by his Kryoptonian parents, Superman built Lois a suit which will give her the ability to fly, handle the pressures of high altitude, and be just like him for one day.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1982/allstar4tc0.jpg

While Grant Morrison is known for his many weird and quasi-existential books ("Animal Man" and "Doom Patrol" push the boundaries of comic books and what the mind can handle in a single issue), he puts that part of his writing prowess away for "All-Star Superman", and gives us an entertaining actioner with heart and soul, and a story that gives us back what the monthly Superman books have been missing for years.

D_Davis

11-10-2008, 03:07 AM

Who drew that cover, meg?

It's awesome.

megladon8

11-10-2008, 03:08 AM

Who drew that cover, meg?

It's awesome.

Frank Quitely, the guy who does the interiors as well.

He's one of my favorites. He'll be making another appearance down the list, and it's actually with Grant Morrison again.

number8

11-10-2008, 03:39 AM

I agree.

Great cover/poster artist, but not so great at interiors.

I'm having problems with his art in general, but this is so true. The best work Alex Ross has ever done were the series of "real world problems" books he did with Paul Dini, because they were illustrated novellas, not comics, so it was pretty much a series of paintings. The problem is he doesn't know visual storytelling, and you try to read his comics and it's just one tiny painting after another; no sense of panel continuity whatsoever.

megladon8

11-10-2008, 03:58 AM

I've always had small quibbles with Ross' art having very little distinction between character faces, and characters looking like they have balloons for muscles. But his images are just so darn pretty.

Grouchy

11-10-2008, 04:25 AM

I see all of you guys objections about Alex Ross and I raise you a Tim Bradstreet:

http://timbradstreet.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/15/bp4reduxfinaltd_4.jpg

http://www.thepunisher.com/past_news/april_2006/punisher35.jpg

http://www.chochitopelao.com/imagenes/musica/matter_life_death_01.jpg

That guy is just as photorealistic and a hell of a lot more expressive.

D_Davis

11-10-2008, 03:05 PM

I'm having problems with his art in general, but this is so true. The best work Alex Ross has ever done were the series of "real world problems" books he did with Paul Dini, because they were illustrated novellas, not comics, so it was pretty much a series of paintings. The problem is he doesn't know visual storytelling, and you try to read his comics and it's just one tiny painting after another; no sense of panel continuity whatsoever.

This is true, nicely said. Ross really doesn't understand the art of sequential story-telling. As you said, each panel is merely a small painting, and while they look nice, there is almost no context between the panels. In comic books, it is important for the artist to suggest what happens in between the panels - the stuff we don't see is just as, if not more, important than the stuff we do see. And while Ross shows us some awesome stuff, I never get the sense that anything else is going on.

I do like his posters he did for G-Force - those are pretty awesome.

D_Davis

11-10-2008, 03:13 PM

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3870/allstarbatmanpr2.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2338/allstar1jc9.jpg

Are these panels all done by Quietly? I love the bottom panels, but that top panel is messy and generic - it's got all those "Image" lines (I am so tired of the over use of hatching and cross hatching on faces like that - a technique popularized by old McFarlane, and taken to an absurd level by Jim Lee, Rob Leifeld, and the whole Image crew).

I think the reason that I like Quietly's art so much is that it reminds me of Arthur Adams, one of my favorites.

Art Adams' Appleseed covers are amazing.

http://www.tslendinga.com/other/appleseed1.jpg

Kurosawa Fan

11-10-2008, 03:50 PM

BIG thumbs up for I Never Liked You and All Star Superman. Both are fantastic.

number8

11-10-2008, 04:56 PM

Are these panels all done by Quietly? I love the bottom panels, but that top panel is messy and generic - it's got all those "Image" lines (I am so tired of the over use of hatching and cross hatching on faces like that - a technique popularized by old McFarlane, and taken to an absurd level by Jim Lee, Rob Leifeld, and the whole Image crew).

No, it's Jim Lee, from an entirely different book. I'm not too fond of his art either, and I hate it when people say they buy All-Star Batman & Robin just for the art. Fuck the art. It's Miller's writing I'm buying it for.

Lee's another one of those artists that can only do pin-ups and covers. Quitely, now that's a comic book artist.

D_Davis

11-10-2008, 05:27 PM

No, it's Jim Lee, from an entirely different book. I'm not too fond of his art either, and I hate it when people say they buy All-Star Batman & Robin just for the art. Fuck the art. It's Miller's writing I'm buying it for.

Lee's another one of those artists that can only do pin-ups and covers. Quitely, now that's a comic book artist.

We're like brothers from different mothers in this thread.

:)

number8

11-10-2008, 06:13 PM

We're like brothers from different mothers in this thread.

:)

You're just saying that because you have yellow envy. :P

megladon8

11-10-2008, 08:00 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone.jpg

I have a confession to make. I'm not the biggest Frank Miller fan. His raging misogynism and his penchant for making everything "dark and gritty and EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME!" really don't suit some of the books he's worked on. If he were to write a "Superman" book, surely it would be one of the most awful things ever.

Oh wait, "The Dark Knight Strikes Again"! Ah-thank you.

However, back in the 1980s, Frank Miller was in tip-top form, and actually wrote some of the best comics ever, and this is one of them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone3.jpg

While "Batman: Year One" certainly looks at Bruce Wayne as a less-than-mentally-healthy citizen of Gotham City, he is by no stretch a homicidal maniac like Miller's later incarnation of the character.

Batman is simply a man who is almost as insane as the criminals he is after, and he is able to use that to his advantage in his fight on the right side of the law.

While Batman Begins was not exactly based on this book, it does lift a lot of elements directly from here, namely Batman's control of bats by using sonar to direct them and utilize them in his fear-tactics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone2.jpg

The scene in Batman Begins where Batman takes the chip out of his shoe to create a giant wall of bats, and then jumps down the centre of a stairwell as if he is one of the bats themselves? That's a direct lift from this book.

But while Bruce Wayne and Batman are surely central characters in this book, it actually takes quite a look at Gordon, and remains one of the staples of DC's lore regarding the character.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone6.jpg

He is a good man living in a not-so-good world. Surrounded by police corruption and unwilling to join in, he is gang-beaten by the men who are supposed to be his comrades. They beat him "just enough to keep him out of the hospital", to try to scare him into going along with the embezzlement, extortion and otherwise un-policelike activity.

But, like Batman, Gordon sees this as unacceptable, and decides to fight back. And, also like Batman, he does it not out of a sense of self-righteousness, or some weird Nietzsche-esque philosophy, but simply because he's in a position where he can do something about it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone1.jpg

Being a "beginning" to Batman's mythology, this book of course outlines the murder of the Wayne's, and young Bruce's decision to become a beast that will fight corruption and evil through methods outside the law.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/yearone5.jpg

His training is shown extensively, though not like Batman Begins where he trains with R'as Al Ghul. Here he learns many martial arts, and trains himself to become a great detective, then spends a lot of time kicking trees down and other manly stuff like that.

It's dark, for sure. What Miller book isn't dark and gritty?

But it doesn't go overboard, which is a problem Miller often has.

It's a really great book, and without a doubt one of the best Batman books out there.

D_Davis

11-10-2008, 08:07 PM

I don't think I've ever read all of Batman Year One.

I do like Robin Year One quite a bit though.

megladon8

11-10-2008, 08:15 PM

I don't think I've ever read all of Batman Year One.

I do like Robin Year One quite a bit though.

I haven't read "Robin: Year One"!

Chuck Dixon wrote it, right?

I'm getting some great recc.'s in this thread.

EyesWideOpen

11-10-2008, 11:39 PM

I'll take Alex Ross and Jim Lee art over Frank Quitely art any day of the week.

number8

11-11-2008, 12:46 AM

Is Frank Miller really dark and gritty and extreme? Batman: Year One and Daredevil are by far the grittiest thing he's written. Ever since then he's been pretty much writing stuff in a Sin City style: over-the-top, cartoonish and deliberately humorous.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 02:35 AM

I'd say his "Sin City" work is the very definition of his "dark and gritty to the extreme" style.

It may be over-the-top and humorously done, but it's not candy-canes and lollipops. His dialogue in those books is gritty as all hell, and the stories are just as dark.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 02:40 AM

I'll take Alex Ross and Jim Lee art over Frank Quitely art any day of the week.

I find Jim Lee's art can be characterized well with one word: typical.

I don't find there to be anything exemplary about his work. Like Ross, he has the similar problem of having male faces look too much alike. And as D_Davis mentioned, his overuse of hatching and minute detailing for textures is ssssooo mid-'90s.

Another person who's even worse with this is the late Michael Turner.

Grouchy

11-11-2008, 02:44 AM

I almost blind bought Robin: Year One recently. Decided against spending the money, been crying over spilled milk ever since.

I'll take Alex Ross and Jim Lee art over Frank Quitely art any day of the week.
Ugh.

D_Davis

11-11-2008, 02:46 AM

I almost blind bought Robin: Year One recently. Decided against spending the money, been crying over spilled milk ever since.

I have the four issues, if you want to buy them.

I want to try to sell what remaining comic books I have. I recently sold a box of trades, and I still have some random issues of stuff to get rid of.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 02:51 AM

D_Davis

11-11-2008, 02:55 AM

Why are you getting rid of so much of your stuff, D?

CD's, now comics and the like.

I hope it's not in anticipation of the whole "the only medium will be computer screens" thing coming up.

I much prefer having a physical album/book/comic/movie to look at and collect. I don't want just files on a computer.

That is exactly it.

Beyond books, I don't want any physical media in my house. I am not a "collector," and yet over the years I've acquired too much stuff.

Too much space.

I don't want to move it again.

I want everything on a HD(s), or at least out of jewel boxes and into binders.

This is in preparation for a future move, to which my wife and I could possibly be moving far away into a very small house or apartment.

Next year, I plan on backing up my DVDs and getting rid of those. That is going to take some damn time!

EyesWideOpen

11-11-2008, 03:01 AM

I almost blind bought Robin: Year One recently. Decided against spending the money, been crying over spilled milk ever since.

Ugh.

Although Leinil Yu is better then all three of them.

number8

11-11-2008, 04:43 AM

That is exactly it.

Beyond books, I don't want any physical media in my house. I am not a "collector," and yet over the years I've acquired too much stuff.

Too much space.

I don't want to move it again.

I want everything on a HD(s), or at least out of jewel boxes and into binders.

This is in preparation for a future move, to which my wife and I could possibly be moving far away into a very small house or apartment.

Next year, I plan on backing up my DVDs and getting rid of those. That is going to take some damn time!

I'm with you, dude. I'm waiting for the day comics and books are reduced to a portable plasma screen with wi-fi that you can subscribe to comic titles and download automatically every wednesday.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 04:50 AM

I'm with you, dude. I'm waiting for the day comics and books are reduced to a portable plasma screen with wi-fi that you can subscribe to comic titles and download automatically every wednesday.

I will loathe this with every fabric of my being.

Ezee E

11-11-2008, 05:05 AM

number8

11-11-2008, 05:10 AM

that amazon reader is pretty nifty

It is indeed, but not good enough. It needs to be full color and larger to accommodate comics.

number8

11-11-2008, 05:13 AM

I will loathe this with every fabric of my being.

That's what the other cavemen said about the weirdo who started chiseling on paper.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 05:14 AM

That's what the other cavemen said about the weirdo who started chiseling on paper.

You don't like the whole sensory experience of holding a book in your hands?

I fucking HATE reading off of computer screens. I cannot read more than one or two pages of text before I get a fucking horrid headache.

Ezee E

11-11-2008, 05:18 AM

You don't like the whole sensory experience of holding a book in your hands?

I fucking HATE reading off of computer screens. I cannot read more than one or two pages of text before I get a fucking horrid headache.
Take a look at that Amazon reader. It's pretty fascinating really because of how easy it is on the eyes. You can change the type as well.

I think they may have to do something similar to what 8 is requesting as far as adding in color, and maybe change up the size of it, and it will be a huge hit. You're able to download books, newspapers, magazines, and it'll also update everytime a new one comes out.

Japan is also coming up with a monitor that rolls like a piece of paper.

megladon8

11-11-2008, 05:28 AM

I still like holding a book in my hands.

The crackle of the spine as it's opened for the first time. The smell of the pages. Feeling the weight shift from the right to the left as you slowly progress through the book.

It's something I don't want to lose, and I find it quite sad that we're moving in that direction.

Ezee E

11-11-2008, 05:31 AM

number8

11-11-2008, 07:29 AM

I'm not sentimental. I don't keep trinkets, I throw out letters and cards, I get my bills in emails and I don't carry cash. I don't collect comics, I read comics; and I can read just as well if not better off a screen. I like the weight and smell of books as much as the next geek, but I won't miss it. I'm a man of tomorrow, and tomorrow is an electronic day. Give me economy and simplifications. I truly believe that paper is an outdated gadget and we need to stop using them.

Acapelli

11-11-2008, 07:43 AM

I have the four issues, if you want to buy them.

I want to try to sell what remaining comic books I have. I recently sold a box of trades, and I still have some random issues of stuff to get rid of.
i'd definitely be interested in this

megladon8

11-11-2008, 11:44 AM

See, I quite like this...

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/8699/kcsupessupes2jg1.jpg

D_Davis

11-11-2008, 01:01 PM

i'd definitely be interested in this

Okay - let me double check just to make sure I still have them.

I'll let you know.

number8

11-14-2008, 08:01 PM

See, I quite like this...

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/8699/kcsupessupes2jg1.jpg

I read this book, and although the panel compositions are still weak, I was wondering why it looked so much better than Ross' usual art. Then I realized that he only pencilled it. Alex Sinclair inked and colored it.

megladon8

11-14-2008, 10:51 PM

I love Ross' covers for the first issues of "JSA".

Awesome work.

megladon8

11-15-2008, 02:09 AM

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6052/itsabirdcoverwd7.jpg

"It's a Bird..." is written by Steven T. Seagle, and much like my previous entry of "Superman: Secret Identity", it is one of the best Superman stories to be told, and yet is not directly related to Superman. However, while "Secret Identity" contained a character named Superman who was a costumed hero, "It's a Bird..." is based entirely in reality. There is no Superman, there are no supervillains or dastardly plots.

This book is about a writer. A comic book writer who is given the daunting privilege of writing a Superman book.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4341/itbird3wr5.jpg

But he has a problem. He has no stories to tell of the Man of Steel. This character who doesn't get hurt or sick, doesn't keel over when shot or even punched, isn't even human.

How can Steven, a jaded writer with a sick father, possibly find a way to communicate something original and - most importantly - genuine about this hero who is, let's face it, not nearly as popular now as he was 50 years ago.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2918/itbird1cj0.jpg

And this is where the story succeeds so well. I have always argued that Superman is a very strong character with some golden stories out there if anyone has the will to look. But so many brush him off as just too powerful, too invulnerable, too God-like (which, quite frankly, is an incorrect assumption based on misinformation, but I won't go into that now).

This is the same reason why Steven can't seem to write about him. What does he possibly have in common with Superman, the very definition of the "alpha male"?

As Steven reflects on his past, looks to his future, and sees his father fade away from terminal illness, he comes to realize the great truth of Superman - he is a symbol.

A symbol of hope. A shining ray of light in what many see as a very dim existence. He is the idea that we can be better, than we can strive for greatness, and that anything and everything is possible if we just try.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3796/itbird2sx4.jpg

This story connected with me in a particular strong way because of my own past connections with Superman (and superhero comics in general).

When I was a kid I was so sick I nearly died. I had no immune system, and had to spend three years in chemo therapy. Then I broke my back. It was a medical nightmare, and a miracle that I survived.

All through this, I was reading Superman comics. I had Superman pajamas, pictures of Superman on my walls and stickers of Superman on the covers of my school books.

He didn't get sick or hurt like me. He wouldn't break and fall like I did. I looked up to him like he was a real person. A real hero to be admired, and for me to strive to be like.

Because he IS a real hero. He IS as indestructible as people think, because he is an idea. An idea that we can be better, that we are more than we seem.

Just like Jor-El said to the young Kal-El as he flew to Earth...

"They can be a great people, Kal-El, if they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all - their capacity for good - I have sent them you...my only son."

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8222/itbird4kw2.jpg

EyesWideOpen

11-15-2008, 02:16 AM

Fantastic book, one of my favorites.

megladon8

11-15-2008, 02:17 AM

Fantastic book, one of my favorites.

Yeah, it's got quite an emotional impact.

And I adore the artwork.

D_Davis

11-15-2008, 03:15 AM

Dang, that looks awesome.

Need to see if my library has that.

Love the art!

megladon8

11-19-2008, 03:49 AM

Dang, that looks awesome.

Need to see if my library has that.

Love the art!

I don't know how I totally missed this post until now.

I think you'll dig it, D, I really do. The art is awesome, and Seagle does a good job of making the character jaded and depressed, but still likable and relatable. I find this is something that many authors have a hard time pulling off - making it clear that the protagonist has issues, but maintaining a level of charisma so as to keep them from seeming annoying and whiny.

Next post should be up in a day or two!

EyesWideOpen

11-19-2008, 04:24 AM

I really like how Seagle's work is so varied he also wrote the excellent American Virgin (which has the most sexual content of any vertigo series i've read) series and helped create the popular kids show Ben 10.

ledfloyd

11-19-2008, 08:42 AM

i've been hearing alot about this. you just put me over the edge. i'm going to get it now.

D_Davis

11-19-2008, 06:12 PM

Ever read Kid Eternity? That was pretty cool. Great art.

number8

11-19-2008, 08:46 PM

Ever read Kid Eternity? That was pretty cool. Great art.

Yep. Early 90s Vertigo was the shiz. See also Shade the Changing Man and Invisibles. Some of their best titles. Real groundbreaking psychadelic stuff, not the more movie-oriented titles they have in the 2000s.

Sean Phillips is still doing great art.

megladon8

11-20-2008, 12:14 AM

Ever read Kid Eternity? That was pretty cool. Great art.

No I have not, but it is now on my list!

megladon8

11-21-2008, 10:58 PM

Picked up "Kid Eternity" - can't wait to read it! The art looks awesome.

D_Davis

11-22-2008, 05:29 PM

Picked up "Kid Eternity" - can't wait to read it! The art looks awesome.

Cool. I don't remember anything about the story, so I can't vouch for it. But the art is amazing and totally worth it.

Spaceman Spiff

11-22-2008, 09:55 PM

Haven't read through many of the posts, but I guess I'll have the be the voice of dissent on Blankets (primarily, because everyone I know would take a bullet for their copy): It's sentimentality felt cheap and forced. Thompson is a good artist, but he sort of sucks as a writer. The melodrama was layered thick, and other than the genuinely poignant sibling rivalry, the comic feels empty and lifeless.

I also do not dig 99% of superhero comics. It's all fluff in a way that art like Heroes and Firefly are. They pander to their respective masses, engorge themselves on superhero tropes, and their "cool" comic-y posturing has been really annoying since the days of Frank Miller and The Dark Knight. I realize that this is the essence of the Marvel/DC medium, but it is possible for the genre to veer away from its trappings and attain some level of formal and thematic novelty, even within the confines of the hero lore (Superman's Red Son is a good example, and I find Superman to be the most boring of all the superheroes.) Essentially, I find much of it to be "assembly line" art in a way that I don't get from the much more personal comics.

My favorite writers include:

Daniel Clowes (although he has been repeating himself lately)
Alan Moore (From Hell is the best graphic novel period)
Chester Brown (Louis Riel and Ed the Happy Clown are fantastic)
Charles Burns (About as close to Lynch as we're going to get with comics - Black Hole is one of the scariest things I've ever read, read it before it gets made into a film and all the hipsters start jumping on its bandwagon)
Chris Ware (If only for the genius that is Jimmy Corrigan, this dude needs to publish something else)
Will Eisner ('nuff said)
Robert Crumb ('nuff said^2)

Melville

11-23-2008, 12:37 AM

Chris Ware (If only for the genius that is Jimmy Corrigan, this dude needs to publish something else)
?

A new issue of Acme comes out at least once a year. Compared to Clowes, Ware is a dynamo of productivity. But otherwise I agree with all of your choices, though Jimmy Corrigan >>> From Hell, if only for the splendor of its design (Eddie Campbell is terrific, but Ware is in a league of his own).

megladon8

11-23-2008, 12:42 AM

I also do not dig 99% of superhero comics. It's all fluff in a way that art like Heroes and Firefly are. They pander to their respective masses, engorge themselves on superhero tropes, and their "cool" comic-y posturing has been really annoying since the days of Frank Miller and The Dark Knight. I realize that this is the essence of the Marvel/DC medium, but it is possible for the genre to veer away from its trappings and attain some level of formal and thematic novelty, even within the confines of the hero lore (Superman's Red Son is a good example, and I find Superman to be the most boring of all the superheroes.) Essentially, I find much of it to be "assembly line" art in a way that I don't get from the much more personal comics.

Well then maybe you should check out a few of my entries like "Superman: Secret Identity" and "It's a Bird...".

Both great, totally different and interesting takes on the character.

megladon8

11-23-2008, 01:23 AM

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/3647/dp4lw5.jpg

While in Manhattan earlier this year engaging in one of my ritual comic book buying binges, I struck up a really good conversation with one of the other customers. He was a really well-spoken, intelligent guy (and a comic book nerd, needless to say) who looked sort of like Jeffrey Wright in his role as Peoples in Shaft. We were talking about our favorite series', and helping each other to find new series' which we might enjoy - he got me hooked on both "Ex Machina" and "The Authority", so that was awesome!

Something we both agreed on was just how incredibly awesome "The Dark Phoenix Saga" is, and he put it in a really neat set of words. He said that "'The Dark Phoenix Saga' was 'Watchmen' before 'Watchmen'". Now, while it's pretty easy to argue that "Watchmen" is the superior work (though I'd sargue the "X-Men" story is the more entertaining, enjoyable read of the two), I thought this was a good observation. Before Moore's magnum opus had been released, "The Dark Phoenix Saga" had raised comic books of the '70s to a level of metaphysical, moral and emotional power like nothing else had really done before it.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6279/dp5xd7.jpg

The story centers on Jean Grey, who has unlocked unheard-of potential with her mental powers after an accident while on a mission in space. While it is quite a complicated story and I could spend this entire write-up reciting its various plots, twists and characters, I'll just say that Grey - after being tinkered with by the Hellfire Club - develops an insatiable hunger for power and energy, which leads her to take in the energy of a distant star, causing it to supernova and kill billions of innocents.

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1182/dp3gk7.jpg

All of this leads to a showdown on the moon, where Jean chooses to end her own life. In a surprisingly poignant bit of dialogue by Uatu - an alien observer of the events - he states at the end of the story, "Jean Grey could have lived to become a god, but it was more important to her that she died as a human."

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3413/dp1vu3.jpg

Much like Alan Moore's "Saga of the Swamp Thing", I found this book to be incredible in the way that it conveys Jean Grey's immense power. Having been written in the 1970s, on the tail-end of the boom of cosmic superhero stories that made Jack Kirby a household name, it includes ideas such as Jean becoming "a being of pure thought", and the moral implications of the destruction of entire alien civilizations. Long considered a pretty innocent, throwaway artform, this was a significant step towards their being taken more seriously by both critics and the public.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2750/dp2qa3.jpg

Written by Chris Claremont, who is largely considered one of the definitive voices in "X-Men" lore, this story certainly shows why he has this legendary reputation. Other books of his which should be checked out include "God Loves, Man Kills" and "Mutant Massacre".

"The Dark Phoenix Saga" remains one of the best "X-Men" stories, and while it may not be as hard-hitting or controversial as "Watchmen", it's just as important in comic book history.

And on an interesting side note, when Claremont and Byrne originally approached Marvel with the story, the ending had Jean Grey live, so they could use both her and the Phoenix in later stories. It was the publisher who actually made the decision to have Jean die at the end, saying it was the only suitable punishment for such a monumental crime as genocide.

Acapelli

11-23-2008, 02:12 AM

I also do not dig 99% of superhero comics. It's all fluff in a way that art like Heroes and Firefly are. They pander to their respective masses, engorge themselves on superhero tropes, and their "cool" comic-y posturing has been really annoying since the days of Frank Miller and The Dark Knight. I realize that this is the essence of the Marvel/DC medium, but it is possible for the genre to veer away from its trappings and attain some level of formal and thematic novelty, even within the confines of the hero lore (Superman's Red Son is a good example, and I find Superman to be the most boring of all the superheroes.) Essentially, I find much of it to be "assembly line" art in a way that I don't get from the much more personal comics.
i'm not exactly sure what's your problem with superhero comics

but then again, i pretty much keep up with marvel/dc stuff because i think the stuff going on in there is "cool". have you read any of grant morrison's stuff (you probably would since you mention millar's red son)

Ezee E

11-23-2008, 02:55 AM

D_Davis

11-23-2008, 06:16 AM

Old Claremont + Byrne + Austin = win

Nice pick.

Byrne may be my favorite stylist of that classic super hero look, and Austin is a damn fine inker.

megladon8

11-23-2008, 10:19 AM

Nice pick there. I like the Marvel crossovers of the 90's as well, until it reached the Age of Apocalypse, where it was just impossible to know everything that went on.

However, when it's simply X-Men crossovers, sure, I'll go for that.

Yeah, the '90s wasn't a great time for comics in general, but "X-Men" especially got ridiculous.

It's always been more of a soap-opera title, but all the deaths and resurrections, love triangles, and other convoluted stuff that you needed to know in order to understand anything else going on was just...ugh.

As sexist as it is to say this, it's this soap opera quality to the "X-Men" stories that makes this particular title so popular with female comic book readers. Rarely do I encounter women who read comics and don't site and "X-Men" book as their favorite.

Have you read Joss Whedon's "Astonishing X-Men" stuff? I'm not the biggest Whedon fan, but dang, it's awesome.

megladon8

11-23-2008, 10:20 AM

Old Claremont + Byrne + Austin = win

Nice pick.

Byrne may be my favorite stylist of that classic super hero look, and Austin is a damn fine inker.

Yeah I especially like that Byrne has fairly realistic proportions to his characters. Obviously they look like people who work out 24/7, but something I'm not a fan of with a lot of modern artists (such as Jim Lee, for example) is how outrageous the muscle masses can get.

Ezee E

11-23-2008, 10:22 AM

Yeah, the '90s wasn't a great time for comics in general, but "X-Men" especially got ridiculous.

It's always been more of a soap-opera title, but all the deaths and resurrections, love triangles, and other convoluted stuff that you needed to know in order to understand anything else going on was just...ugh.

As sexist as it is to say this, it's this soap opera quality to the "X-Men" stories that makes this particular title so popular with female comic book readers. Rarely do I encounter women who read comics and don't site and "X-Men" book as their favorite.

Have you read Joss Whedon's "Astonishing X-Men" stuff? I'm not the biggest Whedon fan, but dang, it's awesome.
I haven't. It sounds somewhat recent? I haven't read comics since the late 90's.

I remember that in a month, to get all the X titles, it would be like this:
X-Men
Uncanny X-Men
X-Factor
X-Force
Generation X
Wolverine
Cable
X-Men Unlimited (usually an expensive one)

Probably a few more.
and usually a limited series of someone like Gambit, Jubilee, Deadpool, Cyclops & Jean Grey, so on.

EyesWideOpen

11-23-2008, 02:52 PM

Spaceman Spiff

11-23-2008, 03:40 PM

?

A new issue of Acme comes out at least once a year. Compared to Clowes, Ware is a dynamo of productivity. But otherwise I agree with all of your choices, though Jimmy Corrigan >>> From Hell, if only for the splendor of its design (Eddie Campbell is terrific, but Ware is in a league of his own).

I was referring to new full-blooded narratives, but point taken. I think I have missed out on the past 2 or 3 Acme Libraries.

Spaceman Spiff

11-23-2008, 03:46 PM

Well then maybe you should check out a few of my entries like "Superman: Secret Identity" and "It's a Bird...".

Both great, totally different and interesting takes on the character.

Will do, skip.

D_Davis

11-23-2008, 03:51 PM

I always loved it when Spiderman had the webbing under his arms.

Ezee E

11-23-2008, 04:38 PM

Here is a list of the X books that came out in november now.

Uncanny X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Young X-Men, X-Force, Wolverine, Wolverine: Origins, Wolverine: Manifest Destiny, Cable, Weapon X: First Class, Wolverine: Chop Shop, X-Men/Spider-Man, X-Men: Manifest Destiny, New Exiles, X-Men: Magneto Testament, Deadpool, X-Factor, X-Men: Legacy, X-Men: World's Apart, Secret Invasion: X-Men.

that's 19 X related books in one month.
Jees.

Whenever I go to a Borders, I'll usually check out the covers and skim through a few pages, and noticed that a lot of them started all over again, being at only issue #14 or so. What happened?

megladon8

11-23-2008, 07:01 PM

I always loved it when Spiderman had the webbing under his arms.

Me too I thought it was cool.

I also liked the smaller eyes on the costume, as opposed to the enormous ones in titles like "Ultimate Spider-Man".

EyesWideOpen

11-23-2008, 08:24 PM

Jees.

Whenever I go to a Borders, I'll usually check out the covers and skim through a few pages, and noticed that a lot of them started all over again, being at only issue #14 or so. What happened?

#1 issues sell really well so they restart the series all the time for sales reasons. The two major series (Uncanny X-Men & X-Men have retained their original numbering).

Amnesiac

11-23-2008, 08:29 PM

Have you read Joss Whedon's "Astonishing X-Men" stuff? I'm not the biggest Whedon fan, but dang, it's awesome.

Is he still writing that? Or did he pass on the writing responsibilities to someone else? I think he did that with his Buffy comics, anyways.

Acapelli

11-23-2008, 09:16 PM

warren ellis is writing astonishing now

Melville

11-23-2008, 10:54 PM

I was referring to new full-blooded narratives, but point taken. I think I have missed out on the past 2 or 3 Acme Libraries.
Ware's next long narrative, Rusty Brown, is currently being serialized in Acme, just like Jimmy Corrigan was. (By 'full-blooded' you mean long, right?)

EyesWideOpen

11-24-2008, 12:05 AM

warren ellis is writing astonishing now

and he turned the best x book into one of the worst.

Grouchy

11-24-2008, 12:10 AM

I also do not dig 99% of superhero comics. It's all fluff in a way that art like Heroes and Firefly are. They pander to their respective masses, engorge themselves on superhero tropes, and their "cool" comic-y posturing has been really annoying since the days of Frank Miller and The Dark Knight. I realize that this is the essence of the Marvel/DC medium, but it is possible for the genre to veer away from its trappings and attain some level of formal and thematic novelty, even within the confines of the hero lore (Superman's Red Son is a good example, and I find Superman to be the most boring of all the superheroes.) Essentially, I find much of it to be "assembly line" art in a way that I don't get from the much more personal comics.
The only part I agree with is that Superman: Red Son is brilliant. Much better than Wanted and everything else I've read by Millar.

number8

11-24-2008, 03:43 AM

Superhero comic bashing is so 1987.

Spaceman Spiff

11-27-2008, 03:02 PM

Ware's next long narrative, Rusty Brown, is currently being serialized in Acme, just like Jimmy Corrigan was. (By 'full-blooded' you mean long, right?)

Alright.

Maybe I'm a little confused here, as I haven't picked up one of the Acme collections in a bit, I always had the impression that they were mostly [great] throwaway short stories and such. Christmas is coming up, and you seem to know more about Ware than I do. So recommend me a volume, yo.

And yes, by full-blooded I meant not serialized. I generally hate that shit.

Spaceman Spiff

11-27-2008, 03:09 PM

Superhero comic bashing is so 1987.

Have you (or anyone else) read the Calvin and Hobbes strips that dealt with Captain Napalm? Watterson's commentary on superhero cliches in that are dead-on.

Awful dialogue and characterization, ADD action set-pieces riddled with groan-inducing one-liners and "cool" posturing (just look at Wolverine's scowl!), obvious plot developments, and samey art design and panel structuring got boring back in grade 3.

megladon8

11-27-2008, 03:50 PM

Awful dialogue and characterization, ADD action set-pieces riddled with groan-inducing one-liners and "cool" posturing (just look at Wolverine's scowl!), obvious plot developments, and samey art design and panel structuring got boring back in grade 3.

Generalizing an entire sub-genre is boring, too.

Grouchy

11-27-2008, 03:53 PM

Have you (or anyone else) read the Calvin and Hobbes strips that dealt with Captain Napalm? Watterson's commentary on superhero cliches in that are dead-on.

Awful dialogue and characterization, ADD action set-pieces riddled with groan-inducing one-liners and "cool" posturing (just look at Wolverine's scowl!), obvious plot developments, and samey art design and panel structuring got boring back in grade 3.
I think you don't like bad superhero comics. Or most of what came out of the '90s.

But since it's a genre that's been constantly published since 1939, I think it's fairly impossible that every single comic has bad dialogue, characterization, and cheesy one-liners.

Melville

11-27-2008, 04:30 PM

Alright.

Maybe I'm a little confused here, as I haven't picked up one of the Acme collections in a bit, I always had the impression that they were mostly [great] throwaway short stories and such. Christmas is coming up, and you seem to know more about Ware than I do. So recommend me a volume, yo.

And yes, by full-blooded I meant not serialized. I generally hate that shit.
?

I'm also confused. The only long story that Ware has finished, Jimmy Corrigan, was serialized (actually doubly so: it was first printed a page at a time in The Chicago Reader, then collected into larger chunks in Acme, then collected in its (almost) entirety in a single volume), and the long stories that he's currently working on, Rusty Brown and Building Stories, are being serialized in the same fashion. If you hate stories that are serialized, do you mean that you want to wait for the completed stories to come out in single-volume editions? If so, you'll probably have to wait for a decade or so for either of Ware's current stories to be finished. If not, then I recommend picking up issues 16, 17, and 19 of Acme, which are basically the first three parts of Rusty Brown. Issue 19 is almost a self-contained story, so it might be the best thing to pick up if you don't want to follow the whole story while its being serialized. The Acme Novelty Library Annual Report to Shareholders, which collects Acme 7 and 15 along with some other material, also has a fair bit of Rusty Brown in it, but all in the form of one-page strips.

Qrazy

11-27-2008, 04:34 PM

?

I'm also confused. The only long story that Ware has finished, Jimmy Corrigan, was serialized (actually doubly so: it was first printed a page at a time in The Chicago Reader, then collected into larger chunks in Acme, then collected in its (almost) entirety in a single volume), and the long stories that he's currently working on, Rusty Brown and Building Stories, are being serialized in the same fashion. If you hate stories that are serialized, do you mean that you want to wait for the completed stories to come out in single-volume editions? If so, you'll probably have to wait for a decade or so for either of Ware's current stories to be finished. If not, then I recommend picking up issues 16, 17, and 19 of Acme, which are basically the first three parts of Rusty Brown. Issue 19 is almost a self-contained story, so it might be the best thing to pick up if you don't want to follow the whole story while its being serialized. The Acme Novelty Library Annual Report to Shareholders, which collects Acme 7 and 15 along with some other material, also has a fair bit of Rusty Brown in it, but all in the form of one-page strips.

What were the graphic novels you recommended me again? I just read Watchmen and enjoyed it quite a bit.

Melville

11-27-2008, 04:40 PM

What were the graphic novels you recommended me again? I just read Watchmen and enjoyed it quite a bit.
I don't know. I'm sure they included Jimmy Corrigan. And if you liked Watchmen, I recommend From Hell, which I think is the best thing Moore has written.

number8

11-27-2008, 05:00 PM

Have you (or anyone else) read the Calvin and Hobbes strips that dealt with Captain Napalm? Watterson's commentary on superhero cliches in that are dead-on.

Yes, I have. My favorite is the one where Calvin is so shaken by a violent comic that he decides to watch TV, and his mom goes "No no, there's too much violence on TV. Go read something."

You're misunderstanding Watterson's contempt with something specific as a blanket statement for a genre. In the strip I mentioned, he was commentating on the late 80s/early 90s boom of shitty artists like Rob Liefeld, Todd McFarlane and even to an extent, Frank Miller, who all suddenly decided to write their own comics--but since their bread and butter is drawing muscular men and gore, all they can come up with are mindless, violent stories. Image Comics was built on this formula, and produced some of the shittiest comics ever. They pretty much encapsulate what Watterson's problems with the superhero genre was.

My comment was actually not just a "so old" joke. Back in 1987, it's common for older comic book fans (the ones beyond 3rd grade, as you say) to shun superhero comics in favor of titles like Cerebus or Love and Rockets, the same way a budding film aficionado would start to shun action movies as s/he start to discover the French New Wave, or what have you. That's about the time shortly after Marvel and DC started doing crossovers and events and retcons, and after they've grossly misunderstood Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns' popularity and critical acclaim as "people like dark and violent superheroes!" It's also when stock investors started realizing the potential of comics as investments, and the comic book industry started catering to these people, upsetting actual fans. What I'm saying is, there was a lot of legitimate reasons to be hip and go against superheroes back in 1987.

But again, that's also specifically in line to Watterson's disgust, who as we all know is very against merchandising and commercialism in general. Of course he had a problem with the way the comic book industry was turning out, which substituted creativity for gimmicks and sales. A lot of the critiques in the strips, even superhero fans can agree with, like the one where Calvin explains to Hobbes how they keep relaunching comics back to #1 so it'll be a collector item and that someday he'll make billions of dollars (of course, he didn't know that the value is next to nothing because they keep printing #1s--basically Watterson called comic book investors about as gullible as a little kid). None of them had anything to do with the genre's potentials and highlights. Readers, like yours truly, know how to tell the good stories from the bad, and not just in it for the so-called posturing.

Nowadays, when the superhero genre has further evolved and explored other possibilities for the archetype other than in an action-fighting stories, those critiques just don't hold water anymore. Especially when a lot of those alternative creators back in the 80s/90s like Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis, David Lapham, Peter Milligan, etc. are all now working on superhero stories and using them well.

Spaceman Spiff

11-27-2008, 06:44 PM

Spaceman Spiff

11-27-2008, 06:57 PM

I don't know. I'm sure they included Jimmy Corrigan. And if you liked Watchmen, I recommend From Hell, which I think is the best thing Moore has written.

From Hell is the bee's shit. If Qrazy doesn't dig it, he probably has some severe neurological and cognitive defects, and must be dealt with harshly and accordingly.

Acapelli

11-27-2008, 07:52 PM

Spaceman Spiff

11-27-2008, 08:13 PM

maybe not elitism, but ignorance

roflcakes.

number8

11-27-2008, 10:18 PM

Good post.

I guess I just don't see much of a difference between what is considered crap amongst the comic elite and what I consider to be crap. After all these years, I really think that writers should veer away from tropes that really have been around since the 50s and in some cases, even before then. Preacher or Transmetropolitan are pretty good examples of what I'm getting at. Comics with commentary, thematic weight beyond the obvious, characters that are truly different from the same old stuff that Marvel/DC have been churning out (they're the comic version of Disney I feel, only a lot more violent) and that actually have soul, for lack of a better term. They feel like the artistic product of a talented individual that wanted to tell a story, rather than some dude mechanically assembling a work to fill up the pig-in-suits pockets.

I just can't stand Astonishing, or Stupendous, or Legendary, or Batman Quadrant 7, Issue 45780-A, or what have you. Maybe that's elitism from my part, I dunno.

I get it. I do. And here's why I never try to convince people of why superhero comics are the shit of the highfather shitness. In all honesty, I just like good writers writing good stories, whatever the subject is. I'd be happy if superhero comics don't flood the market, too.

All I ever do is point out their closemindedness. Some of these creators, like Transmet's Ellis or Preacher's Ennis, can craft some truly compelling comics with superheroes, but people still can't see past the tights and capes, and that's very, very sad to me (you want soul, commentary and thematic weight? Try Ellis' Stormwatch and The Authority, which eventually became even more political than Transmet ever was).

At the end of the day, the fault doesn't lie in the genre, or even the characters; it's the publishers. Marvel's Quesada and DC's Didio make truly idiotic editorial decisions a lot, and their universe as a whole are always going to shit, but that doesn't change the quality of people's writing and art, and the quality of their stories, or the originality of ideas that can emerge from it. It's like... studios can pack 2009 with tons of shitty movies about lemurs and you don't want to watch anymore fucking lemurs, but if suddenly Scorsese and Mamet team up to make an epic and heartbreaking story about one lemur's transcendent journey, it'd be a shame if you pass on it.

Spaceman Spiff

11-28-2008, 12:22 AM

What you call closemindedness, I call closemindedness after reading a whole lot of crap, developing an opinion and knowing full well what I am talking about. A lot of it is what it is. You can take it for what it is, or in my case, you can lambast a lot and strive for more.

I have not even heard of The Authority, but I HATED Stormwatch, so I dunno. Maybe I will check it out after I check out the stuff that really owns.

You are probably right that a good deal of the blame must be put on the publisher shoulders, though.

Anyways... which comic is it that Wolverine kills 52,000 ninjas or something. Maybe I will smoke a fat bowl and look at that.

Mysterious Dude

11-28-2008, 01:42 AM

The violence of 90's comics is pretty much what turned me off of them for a long time. I'm kinda getting into them now, though, since I discovered that there is more to comic books than superheroes.

megladon8

11-28-2008, 01:05 PM

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9084/bhei9.jpg

I bought my copy of Charles Burns' "Black Hole" in my first year of college. I was on a comic reading binge, often reading a full trade every day. I went to the college bookstore in search of something - anything - to satisfy my craving to read something comic book-y, and this is what I found. It was the last copy of the only comic they had. I had never even heard of it, but the inside jacket description had me sold. Having been reading only superhero-related comics for a while, I decided to try something different.

And I sure am glad I did, because what I read was one of the more emotionally affecting stories I had read in quite some time (comic book or otherwise).

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7155/bh1in8.jpg

"Black Hole" tells the story of a group of teenagers growing up in Seattle in the 1970s, as they are all affected in one way or another by a bizarre sexually transmitted disease which causes drastic mutations. Some are more innocent and even viewed as a little bit kinky by some of the teens, such as a girl who grows a short tail and a boy who grows a second mouth on his collarbone. Others have more horrifying results, like a boy whose face sinks in to a skull-like shape, or a girl whose skin begins to loosen and peel off.

The boy with the mouth at the base of his neck notices that the voice even has a small, wispy voice which speaks in strange, prophetic blurbs. As the story progresses, we see that these prophecies begin to come true, both literally and symbolically.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4589/bh4mh7.jpg

And while the symbolic value of the disease itself is quite straightforward, the characters and the events that transpire which lead to some bittersweet and some all-out bitter endings are what give the story its power. Burns has certainly written a story which is not for the squeamish - some of the images of the kids' mutations are grotesque in a Cronenberg-esque fashion. As well, there are obviously many scenes throughout the book involving teenagers engaging in sexual behaviour. But the book never ventures into gratuitous territory - it is tastefully executed, with its (successful) attempts at making the reader squirm coming from the horror of the story and its "Lord of the Flies" type plot development towards the end, rather than shocking you with graphic sex.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6945/bh2ec8.jpg

I read this at a perfect time in my life. While physically I was practically a grown man at the age of 13, I was a bit of a late bloomer emotionally. I could really empathize with the characters and how they seemed to have things figured out - love, sex, and life. A casual romp with the "hot girl/guy" felt like something that maybe it wasn't, or perhaps it very much was, and it's our growing up that adds unneeded confusion to the physical act of love.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1200/bh3je8.jpg

At any rate, I enjoyed this book immensely, and it is a story that has really stuck with me over these past few years as something profound that touched on the conflicted feelings of my adolescence.

Melville

11-28-2008, 02:25 PM

Great choice. I thought that the plot felt a bit too much like a sequence of great scenes, never really coming together to form an interesting whole, but it was still damn good stuff.

Kurosawa Fan

11-28-2008, 02:53 PM

Liked Black Hole quite a bit. Nice choice.

megladon8

12-05-2008, 04:26 PM

One more entry before I head off to NYC...

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8577/fwld0.jpg

I was doing some research on Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" series, when I came across this neat little piece of information. Kirby came up with the idea for the series at a time when comics sales were starting to go downhill, and he wanted to change this with something radical - the graphic novel. Well, it's not that he was the inventor of the graphic novel (something often attributed to Will Eisner), but he envisioned a series that did not go on forever. One that had a beginning, middle and end, and that would eventually be collected in one volume rather than readers having to keep track of the serialized issues.

"Fourth World" is a totally outlandish culmination of several characters, series', and storylines, and it is the series Kirby had in mind when he wanted books to be collected and read together.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4295/fw3to1.jpg

Beginning with the series "The New Gods", Kirby told these cosmic tales packed with existentialism, action and humor. In many ways it's all a big, jumbled mess - but what a fun mess it is. The series is totally out-there, especially when one considers the fairly standard good-vs-evil action fare that was coming out around the time (early 1970s).

The overall storyline has Darkseid seeking the "Anti-Life Equation", whose power is absolutely immense - the ability to control the minds and actions of all lifeforms in the universe. Out to stop him are several second and third tier characters of the time, including Mister Miracle and the Forever People.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/181/fw5cv1.jpg

Kirby's art stole the show for me. His vibrant colours, incredibly expressive chracters and unique action scenes shows why he is still considered one of the best artists in comic book history. And not in the "for the time" way - his art still outdoes a lot of what comes from high profile comic artists today.

Sprinkled throughout the stories are issues of "Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen", the one pre-existing title that Kirby used in the "Fourth World" series. Like the other series', it features totally gonzo characters and dialogue, including some that are clearly under the influence of mind-altering substances due to their quasi-philosophical mumbo-jumbo speech.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7839/fw2vx9.jpg

It's fun, funny and action-packed. It's a delight to see Kirby have so much freedom with these titles, because it gives one the pleasure of reading the magnum opus of one truly original talent in the medium.

Kirby took the cheesy, hoaky dialogue and tendency towards "lighter" stories still required by the comics code, and used it to his advantage. It's great fun, and now available in its complete, chronological form in 4 hardcover volumes from DC comics.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1113/fw1ye6.jpg

D_Davis

12-05-2008, 04:48 PM

Gotta have some love for JK.

His art is the very definition of the word 'iconic'.

D_Davis

12-05-2008, 04:48 PM

This thread has sparked some great debate from a variety of posters.

Nice stuff.

Kurosawa Fan

12-05-2008, 04:50 PM

Has anyone read anything by Yoshihiro Tatsumi? I've heard great things, and I'll be picking up Good-bye from the library today. It's the only title of his that's available at any of my libraries.

megladon8

12-05-2008, 04:52 PM

Gotta have some love for JK.

His art is the very definition of the word 'iconic'.

Yeah he really is incredible.

I want to pick up a few books of his when I'm at Midtown this coming week. I'm thinking of "The Demon" and "Devil Dinosaur".

"The Eternals" looks great, too.

What have you read by him?

D_Davis

12-05-2008, 04:59 PM

I haven't read a ton of JK, not as much as I should. The New Gods stuff is fantastic.

I am more familiar with his art. He defined and informed what a super hero comic should look like more than any other artist. I would wager that when people think of a super hero comic book, the vast majority of them think of something similar to JK's style.

He is to the genre what Brian Eno is to ambient music.

megladon8

12-05-2008, 05:01 PM

Has anyone read anything by Yoshihiro Tatsumi? I've heard great things, and I'll be picking up Good-bye from the library today. It's the only title of his that's available at any of my libraries.

No I haven't. I've not really ventured into Japanese comics at all, I'm afraid.

monolith94

12-06-2008, 08:35 PM

I checked out Black Hole from the library today & read it from cover to cover in a few hours. Wow, very eerie, creepy, stuff.

Acapelli

12-06-2008, 09:37 PM

i really need those fourth world omnibuses

megladon8

12-07-2008, 02:17 PM

I checked out Black Hole from the library today & read it from cover to cover in a few hours. Wow, very eerie, creepy, stuff.

Awesome! 'Tis what this thread is for!

Glad you enjoyed it. I think I might head over to Midtown today, and see what else they have by Burns.

I also really want to check out some Chester Brown.

Spaceman Spiff

12-07-2008, 03:43 PM

El Borbah and Big Baby are great, if you haven't checked them out yet, meg.

megladon8

12-07-2008, 04:30 PM

El Borbah and Big Baby are great, if you haven't checked them out yet, meg.

I actually haven't checked out any Chester Brown at all.

How was the "Luis Riel" book?

Melville

12-07-2008, 06:53 PM

I actually haven't checked out any Chester Brown at all.

How was the "Luis Riel" book?
El Borbah and Big Baby are by Charles Burns.

I should read Kirby's Fourth World stuff. It seems so crazy that it just might work. Though I disagree with Davis' claim that his style defines what people think of as superhero artwork. Anybody who's glanced at a rack of superhero comics in the last 15 years would probably associate the genre with Jim Lee's ultra-clean style rather than Kirby's more chunky, expressive style.

Acapelli

12-07-2008, 07:52 PM

well to be fair, davis did say should look like, and i somewhat agree with that

i also think the jim lee style has loosened it's hold on the comic book look, with superstar artists like leinil yu, gary frank, renato guedes, steve epting, etc, taking the reins of huge events and big heroes. it's a bit unfair to say that comics have a sort of pervading style, even superhero comics have vastly different looks nowadays

megladon8

12-07-2008, 11:09 PM

Wow...I saw absolutely nothing at MidTown today.

Well, lots of stuff...but Amazon has spoiled me. Paying cover prices is just not worth it anymore.

Melville

12-07-2008, 11:14 PM

well to be fair, davis did say should look like, and i somewhat agree with that
Actually, I was responding to this statement:

I would wager that when people think of a super hero comic book, the vast majority of them think of something similar to JK's style.
I don't know what most people imagine when they think of super hero comics, but I would think that the really slick style exemplified by Lee has trickled into the popular consciousness by now. Maybe not though.

i also think the jim lee style has loosened it's hold on the comic book look, with superstar artists like leinil yu, gary frank, renato guedes, steve epting, etc, taking the reins of huge events and big heroes. it's a bit unfair to say that comics have a sort of pervading style, even superhero comics have vastly different looks nowadays
Yeah, that was true even in Kirby's day. Even the other big Marvel guys like Ditko and Romita had styles completely different than Kirby's.

Melville

12-07-2008, 11:17 PM

Wow...I saw absolutely nothing at MidTown today.

Well, lots of stuff...but Amazon has spoiled me. Paying cover prices is just not worth it anymore.
Yeah, I almost never buy books or comics at full price anymore. I generally get things from Amazon or used bookstores, though I'll occasionally pick up a comic from the Beguiling in Toronto, which is an awesome comic shop.

Amnesiac

12-07-2008, 11:43 PM

though I'll occasionally pick up a comic from the Beguiling in Toronto, which is an awesome comic shop.

I have fond memories of my few visits to Silver Snail. Pretty cool store. But chock full of useless stuff, too.

Winston*

12-07-2008, 11:46 PM

I get any comics I read from the library and the occasional download if they don't have it at the library. Trade paperbacks always seem way too expensive for the amount of reading you get out of one, at least here they are anyway. And regular comics are ridiculous.

megladon8

12-08-2008, 04:08 PM

I'm really wantng to dive deeper into the world of indie and/or non-superhero comics.

I want to check out some Chester Brown, and those other books by Burns mentioned above.

Can anyone give me a good "starter list" of stuff to check out?

Melville

12-08-2008, 05:26 PM

Can anyone give me a good "starter list" of stuff to check out?

Here are some "canonical" choices, many of which you've probably read.

classic comic strips:

Krazy Kat by George Herriman. Commonly considered the greatest comic of all time, it's basically the Citizen Kane of comics, though I'm not a huge fan of it.

Peanuts by Charles Schulz. If you haven't read the really good stuff from the 60s and early 70s, you definitely should.

Pogo by Walt Kelly

Little Nemo in Slumberland by Winsor McCay

Woodcuts by "fine artists":

God's Man by Ward

The City by Masereel

Random stuff from before the 1980s:

Amphigorey by Edward Gorey

The Spirit and A Contract with God by Will Eisner (though I haven't read either one)

EC horror and war comics from the '50s, particularly those drawn by Harvey Kurtzman or Bernie Kriegstein. Kriegstein's short story "The Master Race" is held in insanely high regard. I've only read Kriegstein's stuff, which is generally good.

Basically anything by Robert Crumb

Modern indy comics:

Jimmy Corrigan, Quimby the Mouse, and everything else by Chris Ware (though you're probably right that you won't like it)

Chester Brown's autobiographical comics: The Playboy and I Never Liked You.

Louis Riel by Chester Brown

Love and Rockets by the Hernadez Brothers. I'm not a big fan, but most people seem to love it.

Maus by Art Spiegelman

Boulevard of Broken Dreams by Kim Deitch

City of Glass by Karasik and Mazzuchelli

The Frank Book by Jim Woodring

Mr. Punch by Gaiman and McKean (drastically better than Sandman)

Basically anything by Dan Clowes, particularly Ghost World, David Boring and Eightball issues 22 (republished as Ice Haven) and 23

Hey, Wait! and Shhhh! by Jason

Palestine by Joe Sacco

It's a Good Life if You Don't Weaken by Seth

From Hell by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell

Though it's often critically reviled these days, Cerebus by Dave Sim is essential. It becomes almost insufferable in its last 50 or so issues (the final two tradepaperback collections), and the first 30 or so (the first collection) are somewhat amateurish, but everything in between is really spectacular. In terms of pure cartooning skills (panel-to-panel transitions, layouts, character expressiveness, etc.), Sim is amongst the best artists around, and he is easily the best letterer ever to work in comics. Unfortunately, Sim's extreme self-righteousness and completely illogical philosophizing eventually take over the entire comic, but there's a lot of good stuff before that.

Although it's not usually on any short list, you might like Stray Bullets by David Lapham. It has a few really good moments.

Also, Japanese and European comics were never dominated by superheroes, so there's a lot to check out there, but I'm not really familiar with it. Akira by Katsuhiro Otomo and Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde by Mattotti and Kramsky are both really good. Osama Tezuka's stuff is the seminal work in Japan, so it's probably worth reading.

I'm probably forgetting a lot here.

D_Davis

12-08-2008, 05:26 PM

For good intro into the 'underground' Japanese scene, check out Secret Comics of Japan:

http://www.netsukesource.com/manga/secret.jpg

It's a pretty good little anthology of all kinds of crazy stuff.

As far as Chester Brown goes, I'd check out:

The Playboy
I Never Liked You
Ed the Happy Clown

I would also recommend:

Nausicaa, Appleseed, Black & White (Tekkonkinkreet), Horobi, Lum, and Ranma 1/2, all Japanese.

Melville

12-08-2008, 05:29 PM

For good intro into the 'underground' Japanese scene, check out Secret Comics of Japan:
Does that have anything by Maruo? He's really good. Also, Kago has some really awesome, surreal horror stories (though you might want to avoid the stuff that veers into Guro porn). "Holes" and "Abstraction" are great.

D_Davis

12-08-2008, 05:31 PM

I don't recall anything by Maruo, but it's been awhile since I read this.

It does have "Holes" though, which is just fantastic.

D_Davis

12-08-2008, 05:33 PM

Is Kago's "Holes" also known as "Punctures"?

Not sure.

Here is a review of the book, detailing the comics within:

http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/00.09/reviews/1/index.php3

Melville

12-08-2008, 05:38 PM

Is Kago's "Holes" also known as "Punctures"?
Yep.

There's a bunch of Kago's stuff available for free on the samehat website:

http://samehat.blogspot.com/

Edit: here's a source that's much easier to navigate:

http://pics.livejournal.com/kc_anathema/gallery/0006dpp2

Definitely check out Punctures and Abstraction. And, uh, proceed with caution with the others.

D_Davis

12-08-2008, 05:44 PM

Yep.

There's a bunch of Kago's stuff available for free on the samehat website:

http://samehat.blogspot.com/

Wow! That Mandrake shop...crap!

Meg, I also recommend the Lupin and Lonewolf and Cub trades.

megladon8

12-08-2008, 07:00 PM

Thanks so much for all the recommendations, everyone...I really appreciate it.

Melville, I've actually only read "Peanuts" of the stuff you listed. Thanks for the list, it's great.

And D - "Lone Wolf and Cub" is awesome. I was saddened to hear that Aronofsky's plans of adapting it to the screen fell through.

Spaceman Spiff

12-08-2008, 07:55 PM

I actually haven't checked out any Chester Brown at all.

How was the "Luis Riel" book?

I was talking about Charles Burns. Oh, and "Luis" Riel? Really, meg?

Spaceman Spiff

12-08-2008, 07:59 PM

Yeah, I almost never buy books or comics at full price anymore. I generally get things from Amazon or used bookstores, though I'll occasionally pick up a comic from the Beguiling in Toronto, which is an awesome comic shop.

Yes! The Beguiling is ridiculously pro.

megladon8

12-08-2008, 08:09 PM

I was talking about Charles Burns. Oh, and "Luis" Riel? Really, meg?

Yeah, it was established that it was Burns you were talking about.

I made an error.

Sorry my human fingers and brain don't compete with yours, Cylon.

megladon8

12-10-2008, 09:00 PM

If anyone's looking for a great guide to comic books - how to read them, how to interpret their unique way of telling stories, and where to look for more great stories you'll like - check out this book. (http://www.amazon.com/Graphic-Novels-Everything-Need-Know/dp/0060824255/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228946200&sr=1-4)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/2562/28004137wx0.jpg

It's divided into various sections such as stories about growing up, stories about war, psychological horror, murder mysteries, etc. Gravett goes in depth with about 3-5 books in each section, and also offers similar recommendations after every book.

It's great, and Gravett is passionate about getting rid of that "comics are 'funny books' for kids" mindset.

D_Davis

12-10-2008, 10:40 PM

That book sounds awesome.

megladon8

12-10-2008, 10:49 PM

That book sounds awesome.

I think you'd really enjoy it. He offers both depth and readability. He dissects individual pages and panels from dozens of books of every genre, showing how artwork and words flow together, and how various artists and writers use the medium in different ways.

It's actually helped increase my interest in Ware, even though my initial impressions were pretty "blech".

I have a huge indie-comic craving right now. I was really disappointed with MidTown's selection. When it comes to superhero comics (both mainstream and off-kilter) they have everything under the sun, but with the non-hero books, they have a very small number of titles, and the indie wall is not organized well at all. So many of the books are terribly damaged.

Maybe I'm just anal, but I'm not paying full cover price for a book whose cover is ripped and bent, and pages are stained.

Does anyone know a good store for these lesser-known titles here in NYC?

Maybe I'll just wait and order a bunch when I get home.

Acapelli

12-10-2008, 11:01 PM

megladon8

12-10-2008, 11:03 PM

forbidden planet is good for indies

but then again you said you didn't like it there. i mean, i couldn't care less if any of the books i buy are slightly damaged. i buy comics to read, not to collect. i don't even bag and board what i buy anymore

Slight damage is fine, I can deal with that, but a cover torn halfway or coffee-stained pages is unacceptable when you're still charged full price.

I'll see if Jen would like to try out Forbidden Planet again.

Spaceman Spiff

12-11-2008, 01:37 AM

Aren't you in Ottawa, meg?

Come to Toronto, and go to The Beguiling. It's by Honest Ed's. Sweet little place and almost appropriately dingy.

Amazon is all you need really.

Acapelli

12-11-2008, 03:02 AM

or if you like to do this stuff in person, borders + 30% coupon works great for trades

megladon8

12-11-2008, 01:31 PM

Got these...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6142Z55SZDL._SS500_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613NWD9K5XL._SS500_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51spWvo-HdL._SS500_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NZM0W1Q1L._SS500_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CC3328KQL._SS500_.jpg

Melville

12-11-2008, 11:26 PM

Oh, yeah, I specifically meant to include Epileptic on my short list. I don't have a good handle on your taste, but it seems like a story you might like.

megladon8

12-11-2008, 11:30 PM

Picked this one up at MidTown today...

http://100scopenotes.files.wordpress. com/2008/05/threeshadows.jpg

Amnesiac

12-12-2008, 06:37 PM

I...really didn't like that Jimmy Corrigan excerpt.

I was actually about to purchase the trade, but if that's what it's like, I think I'll pass.

Got these...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6142Z55SZDL._SS500_.jpg

Good to see you still decided to give it a shot. :)

megladon8

12-12-2008, 07:08 PM

Good to see you still decided to give it a shot. :)

Yep!

It was that guide by Paul Gravett (posted it on the previous page) that convinced me.

Ware seems to have a very different way of laying out pages and wanting the reader to engage with the sory, and the guide helped me figure that all out.

number8

12-12-2008, 07:13 PM

Strange Embrace makes my penis shrivel.

megladon8

12-12-2008, 08:08 PM

"Three Shadows" was...incredible.

Cyril Pedrosa both writes and illustrates with the innocence and purity of a Disney film (which it turns out makes perfect sense, since he worked at Disney), but also has the exotic mysticism of Miyazaki.

I was teary at three points in the story - the last of which (the end of the book) I was weeping.

That was a beautiful story. I think I'll do a "special edition" in my list for this book, after I give it a day or two to digest.

D_Davis

12-12-2008, 09:44 PM

Strange Embrace makes my penis shrivel.

Is this a recommendation?

I can't tell with some of you guys. Batman makes meg want to have sex with a man. Is that good? I guess if he's gay it's good.

This makes your penis shrivel. Is that like it's so good it sends shivers up your spine, but even better?

number8

12-12-2008, 10:21 PM

It's a horror book, so I guess so. I'm not a huge fan, but it did creep me out.

megladon8

12-12-2008, 10:35 PM

Is this a recommendation?

I can't tell with some of you guys. Batman makes meg want to have sex with a man. Is that good? I guess if he's gay it's good.

This makes your penis shrivel. Is that like it's so good it sends shivers up your spine, but even better?

You would have sex with Lau Kar Leung.

Amnesiac

12-12-2008, 11:58 PM

Lau Kar Leung.

http://www.sea.fi/foto/new%20one-armed%20swordsman.jpg

A very odd, yet entertaining, film.

megladon8

12-13-2008, 12:21 AM

http://www.sea.fi/foto/new%20one-armed%20swordsman.jpg

A very odd, yet entertaining, film.

One-Armed Swordsman? That's a freaking masterpiece...and did LKL have anything to do with it? I didn't think so, and his name is nowhere in the IMDb credits.

Amnesiac

12-13-2008, 12:36 AM

One-Armed Swordsman? That's a freaking masterpiece...and did LKL have anything to do with it? I didn't think so, and his name is nowhere in the IMDb credits.

That's a shot from The New One-Armed Swordsman and yes, he was the action-coordinator on the film.

D_Davis

12-16-2008, 07:24 PM

You would have sex with Lau Kar Leung.

No. I can safely say that I would not.

I'd go out and have a beer with him.

D_Davis

12-16-2008, 07:26 PM

That's a shot from The New One-Armed Swordsman and yes, he was the action-coordinator on the film.

Yeah - he choreographed almost all of Chang Cheh's early films, along with Tang Chia. LKL is also in first 2 OASM films as a stunt performer.

megladon8

12-20-2008, 02:43 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/confessioncover.jpg

"Astro City" is quite the series. Written by Kurt Busiek (who wrote a previous entry in my list - "Superman: Secret Identity" - and is one of my favorite modern writers) the series tells stories about many characters and from many different perspectives, all relating to life in this great metropolitan area called Astro City.

What makes this series so very special is its unrivaled humanity; its empathy, its tenderness, its heart. Superheroes, supervillains and civillians alike are all human beings - they all feel palpable and real. Even the Superman-esque character called The Samaritan (a being of incredible power who travels back from the future to better the world) has these beautiful moments of vulnerability.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/ac6.jpg

In one of the first stories, The Samaritan reflects on a typical day in his life. Busy, busy, busy he is, as he flies back and forth across the city and all around the world helping those who need it. At the end of the day he feels a sense of accomplishment, but also can't help but feel saddened - he has this incredible power of flight, yet because he is always on the move going about his duty as one of the world's greatest heroes, he never gets to just enjoy the act of flying. In a world where everyone wishes they could fly, the one man who can is beginning to see it as a burden.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/ac2.jpg

There are so many interesting characters in the "Astro City" stories, so many that would make great series' on their own. Take The Confessor, a devoted Catholic who does his work at night, dressed in black and brandishing a giant, glowing white cross on his chest. But he has a very dark secret of a past horror in his life that still pains him, but also drives him to keep doing his work.

One of the best character arcs to come out of the series was called "The Tarnished Angel", a story about a lifelong villain just released from prison who is thrown back into a world of violence while making an honest attempt at reforming. Steeljack is a man who is nearly indestructible, his skin covered in a layer of polished steel. As the cover of the trade says, "He was a bad man...but if he wasn't good enough, everything and everyone he cared about was going to die."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/ac5.jpg

Told in a film-noir fashion, "The Tarnished Angel" is a story of redemption for a man who feels he may not deserve it. And in an interesting trivia tidbit, the character's look was modelled after Robert Mitchum, which certainly adds to the classic film noir feel of the story.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/ac1.jpg

Several writers have tackled this "real world superhero story" type of storytelling, but none have been as successful as Busiek. He's created an entire world here, rich in history and with potential for a very bright future. As I said before, there are so many great characters here, all of them feeling authentic and vibrant.

"Astro City" is a real treasure.

Acapelli

12-20-2008, 05:52 AM

i've said it before, but the confession arc is one of my favorite comic book arcs of all time

great choice meg

megladon8

12-20-2008, 01:06 PM

i've said it before, but the confession arc is one of my favorite comic book arcs of all time

great choice meg

Thank you! And I totally agree, it's an incredible story.

Have you read Alan Moore's "Top 10"? It has a similar concept - telling everyday stories of a world where superheroes are normal. It's good, but I greatly prefer "Astro City".

monolith94

12-20-2008, 02:51 PM

Btw, meg, I read volumes 1-3 of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and I have to say that I was very, very impressed.

megladon8

12-20-2008, 05:18 PM

Btw, meg, I read volumes 1-3 of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and I have to say that I was very, very impressed.

Awesome!! That's great news, I'm so glad you liked it.

I really liked the way Moore presented the idea that Swamp Thing is a planet who thinks it is human.

megladon8

12-20-2008, 05:43 PM

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Chester Brown's "The Playboy".

Through about the first third, I got the feeling it was a very simplistic look at male guilt over sexual feelings, but what was simplistic quickly became complex and honest.

While the exact situations presented by Brown are nothing I can identify with, the feelings of guilt, shame and isolation I can certainly empathize with. And I thought his use of a little devil-winged "conscience" type of creature as a narrator was appropriate.

I think this may be a book that only males can really connect with.

Acapelli

12-21-2008, 07:46 AM

Thank you! And I totally agree, it's an incredible story.

Have you read Alan Moore's "Top 10"? It has a similar concept - telling everyday stories of a world where superheroes are normal. It's good, but I greatly prefer "Astro City".
i've read the first volume, and i really enjoyed it, but i also prefer astro city

D_Davis

12-21-2008, 04:23 PM

i've said it before, but the confession arc is one of my favorite comic book arcs of all time

great choice meg

I agree.

megladon8

12-22-2008, 03:41 AM

Currently on their way...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513GGJEEDXL._SS500_.jpg

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5875/maushcde6.gif

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/9464/scottpilgrimje5.jpg

EyesWideOpen

12-22-2008, 03:44 AM

Scott Pilgrim will change your life.

megladon8

12-22-2008, 03:49 AM

Scott Pilgrim will change your life.

If it's anything less than life-changing, I'll hold you personally accountable.

Spaceman Spiff

12-22-2008, 09:13 PM

Maus is brilliant.

It's a Good Life, if You Don't Weaken is pretty good.

Scott Pilgrim is insufferable. I refuse to read any more of it.

megladon8

12-23-2008, 11:07 AM

Nearly finished Daniel Clowes' "Ice Haven".

It meanders between being brilliant and being annoyingly (dare I say) "emo". The most interesting characters to me are ones that seem to come and go in short spurts, whereas the ones that are showcased are very annoying, whiny people.

Perhaps it's because I've never been able to sympathize with that teenage attitude of self-importance, thinking they know everything there is to know about the world and that everyone owes them something. But Violet's abuse towards her parents doesn't have any grounds to feel justified, and her romance with this guy Penrod is almost pathetic in its naivité.

This is why I find the characters in the movie Ghost World to be loathsome creatures, and why I don't think I'd much like the graphic novel on which it's based. That whole "everyone in the world is stupid and lame except me" attitude is so repulsive, I can't imagine feeling close to these characters who are so miserable and mean.

Anyways, to make a long rant short, "Ice Haven" has an interesting murder plot that I want to know more about. I like the way Clowes creates a real, vibrant world in which the story takes place, but I hate most of the people who inhabit it.

megladon8

12-24-2008, 02:09 PM

Melville

12-24-2008, 04:26 PM

Finished "Ice Haven".

A poignantly sad moment for Charles raised it up a few notches for me, but I still wasn't in love with it. I suppose in Clowes' attempt to create a real, vibrant town, there certainly have to be some people you don't like...but not liking a character, and not wanting to read about them at all are two different things. I felt the latter towards several of them.

I also didn't like Clowes' random descents into intellectualism, where he suddenly increases his vocabulary to a point where he seems to be trying to impress scholars more than he is trying to tell a story.

Anyways, it was pretty good, nothing great. I'd like to read more of Clowes' work, but I'm not in any rush to do so.
Yeah, you probably won't really like anything by Clowes (though I hope you appreciated his mastery of his craft). His tone is almost clinical; he studies his characters rather than trying to get you to relate to them. That's especially true in Ice Haven, where the emphasis is on creating a tight narrative structure composed of birds-eye-views of the town's inhabitants. Ghost World fleshes out its characters much more, and it does a good job of being critical of them while still sympathizing with them, but I doubt you'd make it past your loathing for the type of people it deals with. David Boring might appeal to you more.

I'm curious about the "random descents into intellectualism" that you mentioned. I don't remember anything like that.

megladon8

12-24-2008, 05:01 PM

Yeah, you probably won't really like anything by Clowes (though I hope you appreciated his mastery of his craft). His tone is almost clinical; he studies his characters rather than trying to get you to relate to them. That's especially true in Ice Haven, where the emphasis is on creating a tight narrative structure composed of birds-eye-views of the town's inhabitants. Ghost World fleshes out its characters much more, and it does a good job of being critical of them while still sympathizing with them, but I doubt you'd make it past your loathing for the type of people it deals with. David Boring might appeal to you more.

Oh he definitely has an incredible grasp of the comic book form, and I adore his artwork.

Really, the writing is brilliant, and I loved the story...but I just found too many of the characters to be loathsome individuals.

I wanted to know more about the little boy who went missing, but so little was said about him. Though, perhaps, that in itself says all that needs to be said.

I'm curious about the "random descents into intellectualism" that you mentioned. I don't remember anything like that.

The writing was quite conversational, until every few chapters Charles would randomly begin soliloquizing to his brother these gross philosophical ideas. I felt that the story itself communicated some wonderful ideas, and this was unnecessary and out of place.

Also the very end chapter with the comic book critic does the same thing. He comes in at the end to rant about the philosophy behind critiquing, and also to pimp out Clowes' other books.

Melville

12-24-2008, 05:17 PM

The writing was quite conversational, until every few chapters Charles would randomly begin soliloquizing to his brother these gross philosophical ideas. I felt that the story itself communicated some wonderful ideas, and this was unnecessary and out of place.

Also the very end chapter with the comic book critic does the same thing. He comes in at the end to rant about the philosophy behind critiquing, and also to pimp out Clowes' other books.
But both of those sections are meant to be ironic. The scenes with Charles reveal his character type (the tortured, self-aggrandizing intellectual), while they point out the silliness of that type (all he really wants is to get the girl...not to mention the fact that he's a little kid; there's a reason that his scenes are drawn in a more cartoony style than the "real" parts of the book). The end is a parody of comic book critics. I thought both were hilarious.

megladon8

12-24-2008, 05:21 PM

I understood the purpose of both, I just found it still felt a little out of place.

I admit, my heart totally broke with that final scene with Charles...

When Violet told him she hopes she marries someone "just like him" someday.

That itself is one of the best comic book moments I've encountered in, well, maybe ever.

Melville

12-24-2008, 06:05 PM

I understood the purpose of both, I just found it still felt a little out of place.
I don't know. There's also a story about a blue bunny referencing Cagney and another about a despairing caveman. All of these "extraneous" pieces add to the layers in the book. The story provides a portrait of the town, but it realizes that the town, more than just being composed of the characters in it, is a set of concepts and reference, and the story of the town, more than just detailing the actions of its inhabitants, contains its own telling. The layers of irony and intertextual (and intratextual) references and digressions add to the sense of viewing an entire world; they incorporate the author as well as the reader's sensibilities into the story.

I admit, my heart totally broke with that final scene with Charles...

When Violet told him she hopes she marries someone "just like him" someday.

That itself is one of the best comic book moments I've encountered in, well, maybe ever.
Yeah, I especially like how the art is extra cartoony in the picture of Charles, alone, looking at the reader in despair. It perfectly incorporates so much of what's come before it into itself. Devastating stuff.