28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[Melville]

The condition of the South is told through Scarlett. It's a matter of defining land through humanity, which channels social characteristics through the individualized entity. This is one of the great things that art can accomplish, in my estimation--physically relating the individual to its surroundings, playing one off the other. This "land of milk and honey" is an accurate perception insofar as Scarlett's youth is one of impetuous, selfish recklessness. Meaning that the film is not uncritical. It is the loss of innocence, but facticity demonstrates that the innocence of antebellum is better-off obliterated (20/20 hindsight and all that). It is no small matter that Scarlett's final revelation is that of her connection to her blood roots--Tara. I think rectification is exactly what happens. That doesn't excuse the film's somewhat reductive depiction of slave life (I don't recall them singing, though, except in the march to fight for the South, but that's a fairly standard filmic depiction of soldiers). But the artistry of Scarlett's characterization (thanks in no small part to Ms. Leigh, who is incredible) echoing the condition of her surroundings is not an insignificant feat.

Granted, it must work as melodrama. Scarlett's sorrow at the destruction of her way of life must be felt on an emotional level. It is in juggling this rosiness with its critical eye that I can justify calling complex.
Yeah...I'm not seeing it. Don't most history-based stories try to capture history by focusing on individual representatives of classes and cultures? What makes Gone with the Wind stand out in this respect? It's critical of Scarlett's pampered, oblivious pre-war existence, but only because her existence is pampered and oblivious; it never examines the complex social issues that she's oblivious of, nor what her pampered lifestyle rests on.

You're probably right about the lack of singing slaves. I just remember a shot of them working happily away in the fields, and I guess my memory embellished the shot with some singing.

[Wryan]

You're probably right about the lack of singing slaves. I just remember a shot of them working happily away in the fields, and I guess my memory embellished the shot with some singing.

They were singing in their hearts and in their hoes...

[Sven]

Yeah...I'm not seeing it. Don't most history-based stories try to capture history by focusing on individual representatives of classes and cultures? What makes Gone with the Wind stand out in this respect? It's critical of Scarlett's pampered, oblivious pre-war existence, but only because her existence is pampered and oblivious; it never examines the complex social issues that she's oblivious of, nor what her pampered lifestyle rests on.

There's a difference between showing a character move through history and having a character BE history. If the film were to examine the conditions of Scarlett's facticity, it would be a completely different movie. Better? Maybe. But I doubt it would be such an effective melodrama if that were the case (plus, how far back would we need to take it?). The South's story, in Gone with the Wind, begins and ends with Scarlett. What was impetuous but fine and attractive is now collapsed but optimistic. I'm not saying it's a profound social picture, but that it incorporates into its form as an epic romance an understanding of the social structures within which the characters maneuver. And the key character, Scarlett, reciprocates that introspection with a reflection of that time and space.

[Melville]

There's a difference between showing a character move through history and having a character BE history.
Sure. And most (or at least many) history-based stories, in trying to capture history by focusing on individual representatives of classes and cultures, try to do both. In Gone with the Wind, Scarlett is a whitewashed, simplistic version of history.


If the film were to examine the conditions of Scarlett's facticity, it would be a completely different movie. Better? Maybe. But I doubt it would be such an effective melodrama if that were the case (plus, how far back would we need to take it?). The South's story, in Gone with the Wind, begins and ends with Scarlett. What was impetuous but fine and attractive is now collapsed but optimistic. I'm not saying it's a profound social picture, but that it incorporates into its form as an epic romance an understanding of the social structures within which the characters maneuver. And the key character, Scarlett, reciprocates that introspection with a reflection of that time and space.
But where in the film is this understanding of the social structures? "What was impetuous but fine and attractive is now collapsed but optimistic"—that's the only understanding that the film conveys.

[Sven]

Sure. And most (or at least many) history-based stories, in trying to capture history by focusing on individual representatives of classes and cultures, try to do both.

I don't think so. At least, not to the extent that I see it in GwtW. I need examples so that I know what you're talking about.


In Gone with the Wind, Scarlett is a whitewashed, simplistic version of history.

You're going to have to give me more concrete examples of this simplicity. Surely no character, film, or story can adequately convey the embodiment of history, time, or place entire. But it can work on facets.


But where in the film is this understanding of the social structures? "What was impetuous but fine and attractive is now collapsed but optimistic"—that's the only understanding that the film conveys.

No, it conveys the collapse through four hours of narrative conflict and character development, all of which resonates with Scarlett's metonymic capacity.

[Bosco B Thug]

I don't think so. At least, not to the extent that I see it in GwtW. I need examples so that I know what you're talking about.



You're going to have to give me more concrete examples of this simplicity. Surely no character, film, or story can adequately convey the embodiment of history, time, or place entire. But it can work on facets.



No, it conveys the collapse through four hours of narrative conflict and character development, all of which resonates with Scarlett's metonymic capacity.
Haven't seen the film in like a decade, but how well does the film work into its context the fact that Scarlett is a troublesomely selfish, superficial, shallow person? I mean, to have a character so susceptive to critique as a main character seems like something to help its favor.

[Sven]

Haven't seen the film in like a decade, but how well does the film work into its context the fact that Scarlett is a troublesomely selfish, superficial, shallow person? I mean, to have a character so susceptive to critique as a main character seems like something to help its favor.

I think it incorporates it thoroughly, with, as I said, no small amount attributed to Leigh's incredible performance.

[Barty]

You should write a history book one day. I'm not sure how much reading it would get under the Fiction section, but I would buy it.

Are you arguing the Union Soldiers didn't wage total war on the South?

[Qrazy]

Are you arguing the Union Soldiers didn't wage total war on the South?

I think he's arguing that they never really achieved their independence so could not be labelled a second country. There's a difference between declaring independence and attaining it.

[Barty]

I think he's arguing that they never really achieved their independence so could not be labelled a second country. There's a difference between declaring independence and attaining it.

Well, then he would be wrong.

[soitgoes...]

Are you arguing the Union Soldiers didn't wage total war on the South?
The problem with what you said is "the annihilation of an entire country." That was not the case. Certain areas perhaps were "annihilated," but definitely not the entirety of the USA, or perhaps you were using country exclusively for the CSA which still doesn't fly. How have I come to this conclusion? I have visited many antebellum buildings, houses, etc. that weren't completely destroyed. In fact they were untouched by the war. New Orleans being the most obvious example.

[Barty]

The problem with what you said is "the annihilation of an entire country." That was not the case. Certain areas perhaps were "annihilated," but definitely not the entirety of the USA, or perhaps you were using country exclusively for the CSA which still doesn't fly. How have I come to this conclusion? I have visited many antebellum buildings, houses, etc. that weren't completely destroyed. In fact they were untouched by the war. New Orleans being the most obvious example.

I was referring to the CSA, in which a lot of the physical country was annihilated, and in a political and governmental sense was completely annihilated.

[Mysterious Dude]

The Union did destroy the CSA. How can that be debated?

But I still don't care for Gone with the Wind's rosy depiction of the South before the war:


There was a land of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields called the Old South. Here in this pretty world, Gallantry took its last bow. Here was the last ever to be seen of Knights and their Ladies Fair, of Master and of Slave. Look for it only in books, for it is no more than a dream remembered, a Civilization gone with the wind...

[soitgoes...]

Well, the Civil War was the annihilation of an entire country, so why wouldn't the film portray it that way?


I was referring to the CSA, in which a lot of the physical country was annihilated,You said entire which was wrong. The destruction of everything west of Moscow during WWII was complete annihilation. What the Union soldiers did during the Civil War was not. Once again see New Orleans or Memphis.


and in a political and governmental sense was completely annihilated.Well, of course it was. I don't think anyone living outside of the South thinks this is a bad thing.

[Melville]

I don't think so. At least, not to the extent that I see it in GwtW. I need examples so that I know what you're talking about.
The first thing that comes to mind is The Quiet American, in which the relationships between the three main characters represent the historical roles of their their respective nations leading up to the Vietnam war. I seem to recall A Tale of Two Cities doing it to some extent (e.g. the Defarges represent a whole revolutionary type). Another example would be most stories about Napolean, which typically cast him as the embodiment of a national historical movement.


You're going to have to give me more concrete examples of this simplicity. Surely no character, film, or story can adequately convey the embodiment of history, time, or place entire. But it can work on facets.
The entire film is an example of that simplicity: its treatment of slavery, the pre-war South, the civil war, etc. Scarlett is never located within a larger set of social structures; her story, read as that of her entire class, reduces the historic end of the Old South to the almost arbitrary comeuppance of an oblivious noble class. I think a movie (especially one that's four hours long) needs to do a lot more than to be considered "a complex depiction of socio-economic conditions." Even the fall of one particular class in society is a lot more complex than the end of the "land of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields."

Edit: in other words, I think the burden of proof here is on you. What in Scarlett's story qualifies as a complex depiction of socio-economic conditions?

[Qrazy]

Well, then he would be wrong.

Not really, it's a pretty interesting question, although essentially a matter of semantics and opinion. First off the United States of America held the secession to be illegal and no European nation officially recognized the CSA as an independent nation. Therefore under the constitutive theory of statehood the CSA would certainly not be considered a sovereign state. On the other hand, under the declarative theory of statehood, they would most likely be considered a state.

[Raiders]

First off the United States of America held the secession to be illegal

Don't get him started. At least not in this thread.

[Sven]

The first thing that comes to mind is The Quiet American, in which the relationships between the three main characters represent the historical roles of their their respective nations leading up to the Vietnam war. I seem to recall A Tale of Two Cities doing it to some extent (e.g. the Defarges represent a whole revolutionary type). Another example would be most stories about Napolean, which typically cast him as the embodiment of a national historical movement.

Well, so the film is working in the tradition of Graham Greene and Charles Dickens. Pretty remarkable, if you ask me.


The entire film is an example of that simplicity: its treatment of slavery, the pre-war South, the civil war, etc. Scarlett is never located within a larger set of social structures; her story, read as that of her entire class, reduces the historic end of the Old South to the almost arbitrary comeuppance of an oblivious noble class. I think a movie (especially one that's four hours long) needs to do a lot more than to be considered "a complex depiction of socio-economic conditions." Even the fall of one particular class in society is a lot more complex than the end of the "land of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields."

Here I guess we are splitting hairs on the definition of complexity, as well as what we require from a critical model. I think Scarlett IS placed within a larger structure, through the eradication of her hermetically-sealed scope (a burst bubble, if you will). The wartime images in GwtW may not be Glory-level graphic, but I think capture the expression of pain, loss, and pointlessness as effectively as any graphic shot of a leg amputation or tumultuous battlefield. I don't know how you can call the comeuppance arbitrary when it completely devastates an entire social sphere. Note, too, that I'm not saying that Scarlett represents a class, but rather the entire land, or South, itself (Tara = terra). It's a privileged perspective, but in her wheelings (a hand in war reparations, stooping to flesh-peddling, fertilizing the land, developing an business model, getting rich in bed (through loveless marriage after loveless marriage), spawning - and losing through self-absorption, both in allowing the errors of the past (the pony ride) and the submission to the dominating patriarch (Rhett's pampering) - progeny, and ultimately a recognition that her quest to revert to an antebellum lifestyle has distracted her from true reconstruction of the land), I think that Scarlett's character charts and interesting tale of one perspective of the South itself.

I haven't had one of these extended debates in a long time. I'm finding it quite difficult. (Doesn't help that I'm simultaneously writing a paper, either.)

[transmogrifier]

Don't get him started. At least not in this thread.

Barty's version of America is so much more fun to browse while bored at work though!

[Melville]

Well, so the film is working in the tradition of Graham Greene and Charles Dickens. Pretty remarkable, if you ask me.
Well, those were the only examples that came to mind, but it seems like a fairly common practice. How many times have you seen a movie where one or two characters represent the entire nobility/merchant class/whatever? And although it's somewhat different than what you're talking about, the whole "great man" notion of history reduces historical trends to the story of a few people's lives.

(Also, I thought Dickens greatly oversimplified the French Revolution and the parties involved in it.)


Here I guess we are splitting hairs on the definition of complexity, as well as what we require from a critical model. I think Scarlett IS placed within a larger structure, through the eradication of her hermetically-sealed scope (a burst bubble, if you will). The wartime images in GwtW may not be Glory-level graphic, but I think capture the expression of pain, loss, and pointlessness as effectively as any graphic shot of a leg amputation or tumultuous battlefield.
Those scenes are certainly harsh enough to "burst the bubble," but they don't provide any social context. There is no representation of how Scarlett's wealthy class is related to anything outside of itself—in particular, its dependence on slavery, its relationship with other classes and political forces of the South, and its conflict with the Union.


I don't know how you can call the comeuppance arbitrary when it completely devastates an entire social sphere.
Its severity has nothing to do with its arbitrariness. The film doesn't examine, in any depth, the causes or relevance of the comeuppance: it just seems to arrive arbitrarily, like a natural disaster rather than the culmination of historical events.


Note, too, that I'm not saying that Scarlett represents a class, but rather the entire land, or South, itself (Tara = terra).
But as you say below, her story is about the evolution of her relationship to the land. That seems like a representation of a class, not of a land.

The movie certainly tries to make the story about the the downfall of an entire world, not just a group of people in that world, but I think that is precisely what makes it an oversimplification. I demand context! Nuance! Etc!


I haven't had one of these extended debates in a long time. I'm finding it quite difficult.
Yeah, me too. Physics has finally broken my mind.

[Sven]

Melville, I'm not going to respond (believe me, I had an itemized retort all laid out). I've got a headache and I'm in my last few days of finals. I need a mental rest.

By the way, and this is to everybody: if I had two-bits every time, within the last week, that I've dramatically reversed a position on a film, I'd have a shiny half-dollar in my pocket. The second film?...

...I'd better get at least one point of rep for this, because this admission is not easy...

...The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou is an ascendant film, comprised of moments of such emotional (and of course visual) precision that words can barely describe it. Strange, and yet familiar. I fought it when I saw it in theaters, perhaps that era being one of a typically youthful hyper-intellectualization. The film is so gloriously chopped, practically worthy of Peckinpah in its assemblage, though more Renoir in visual resplendence. It's funny, it's moving (a couple of motions are a bit pat... I could do without "I need a baby for this father" and the swelling music punctuating the appearance of the jaguar shark was a bit trite), it's practically the reason we have cinema.

Previous rating: *1/2
New rating: ****

[/is concerned about his reputation, as well as the validity of anything he's every said]

[B-side]

Watched Jules and Jim. It was pretty good. Nothing great. I don't really have any complaints, nor can I really point out much that I truly loved. Just felt like a fleeting romance film with some commentary on the side. I feel like I'll forget it fairly soon.

[Watashi]

Melville, I'm not going to respond (believe me, I had an itemized retort all laid out). I've got a headache and I'm in my last few days of finals. I need a mental rest.

By the way, and this is to everybody: if I had two-bits every time, within the last week, that I've dramatically reversed a position on a film, I'd have a shiny half-dollar in my pocket. The second film?...

...I'd better get at least one point of rep for this, because this admission is not easy...

...The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou is an ascendant film, comprised of moments of such emotional (and of course visual) precision that words can barely describe it. Strange, and yet familiar. I fought it when I saw it in theaters, perhaps that era being one of a typically youthful hyper-intellectualization. The film is so gloriously chopped, practically worthy of Peckinpah in its assemblage, though more Renoir in visual resplendence. It's funny, it's moving (a couple of motions are a bit pat... I could do without "I need a baby for this father" and the swelling music punctuating the appearance of the jaguar shark was a bit trite), it's practically the reason we have cinema.

Previous rating: *1/2
New rating: ****

[/is concerned about his reputation, as well as the validity of anything he's every said]
Wait. I gave you rep until I saw that you said the Jaguar Shark scene was trite.

I want that rep back, dammit!

[Sven]

Wait. I gave you rep until I saw that you said the Jaguar Shark scene was trite.

The swelling music was. The scene itself is good, maybe great, but it's punctuated in such a conventional way, whereas the rest of the film is so bizarre and atypical.

[Sven]

Watched Jules and Jim. It was pretty good. Nothing great. I don't really have any complaints, nor can I really point out much that I truly loved. Just felt like a fleeting romance film with some commentary on the side. I feel like I'll forget it fairly soon.

I think that's the kind of film you've gotta either really study to appreciate, or else really relate to the story. I found it pretty dull myself. I can only really remember this excellent shot of a girl with a cigarette in her mouth chugging around the room like a train.

[Sycophant]

Not only do you get rep, Sven, you get congratulations!

I was lukewarm on it, actually, until my second viewing. At which point I discovered that it was just about as good as Anderson's best.

[eternity]

The Life Aquatic is Anderson's best film from just about the opening scene on. To say I love it is a gross understatement.

[Ezee E]

I don't really like it. It only gets worse in The Darjeeling Limited.

He hasn't gone M. Night though. I'll still see his movies in the theaters.

[Sven]

I was lukewarm on it, actually, until my second viewing. At which point I discovered that it was just about as good as Anderson's best.

There are many things about it that I think he's never done better. However, the patness of the some of the father-son motions kind of leaves me a bit cold. I'm trying to take it the way I take Revolution No. 9 in The White Album (an unavoidable eccentricity that comes with the genius package), but I don't know... that Sigur Ros song was most unwelcome.

I still think Darjeeling is his finest.

[Sycophant]

I still think Darjeeling is his finest.I'm beginning to think it might be better than The Royal Tenenbaums, but it'll take at least one more viewing of both to clear this up for me.

[Milky Joe]

...I'd better get at least one point of rep for this, because this admission is not easy...

...The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou is an ascendant film, comprised of moments of such emotional (and of course visual) precision that words can barely describe it. Strange, and yet familiar. I fought it when I saw it in theaters, perhaps that era being one of a typically youthful hyper-intellectualization. The film is so gloriously chopped, practically worthy of Peckinpah in its assemblage, though more Renoir in visual resplendence. It's funny, it's moving (a couple of motions are a bit pat... I could do without "I need a baby for this father" and the swelling music punctuating the appearance of the jaguar shark was a bit trite), it's practically the reason we have cinema.

Previous rating: *1/2
New rating: ****

[/is concerned about his reputation, as well as the validity of anything he's every said]

VINDICATION. I'd be lying if I said I'd knew you'd come around, but still... I always knew you would. The film is almost the definition of a grower.

(+rep)

[Qrazy]

Watched Jules and Jim. It was pretty good. Nothing great. I don't really have any complaints, nor can I really point out much that I truly loved. Just felt like a fleeting romance film with some commentary on the side. I feel like I'll forget it fairly soon.

Sounds like you didn't think very deeply about it. There's quite a lot more going on in the film than fleeting romance, both formally and psychologically. I mean it's fair to find it boring or to dislike it but there's a lot of depth to the film.

[Spinal]

Time to revisit Breaking the Waves, Sven. :)

[Sven]

Time to revisit Breaking the Waves, Sven. :)

You got it.

[Spinal]

You got it.

Woo-hoo! I really enjoyed The Life Aquatic by the way. Kind of lukewarm on Gone With the Wind. I get why people appreciate it, but I just don't feel like it's a film for me.

[Watashi]

Now rewatch Kingdom of Heaven, Sven. :P

[Spinal]

Can of worms ... opened.

[Sven]

Now rewatch Kingdom of Heaven, Sven. :P

Fuck. No. I watched that one within the last two years. I KNOW that one sucks. We're talking top-five-worst kinda bad.

[Winston*]

We're talking top-five-worst kinda bad.

Even with Irons and Thewlis? They've got to be worth something, no?

*hasn't seen it*

*probably never will*

[Watashi]

Fuck. No. I watched that one within the last two years. I KNOW that one sucks. We're talking top-five-worst kinda bad.
You so crazy.

[Sven]

Even with Irons and Thewlis? They've got to be worth something, no?

Not a scrap.

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

Patch Adams
Pearl Harbor
Kingdom of Heaven
Bubble
maybe Letters from Iwo Jima

Not sure about that last one, but the top four I'm positive about. The last one is an offense of utter mediocrity.

[Derek]

I like The Life Aquatic a lot and love Sigur Ros, but their music is innately cinematic that it's a cheap, easy way to evoke emotion from your audience. Not to say I don't get a little choked up at that part of the film, but I can feel myself being played.

[Sven]

Not to say I don't get a little choked up at that part of the film, but I can feel myself being played.

It's a very good scene, music aside. Like I said, it should've been played underhandedly, the way the rest of the film was. I felt myself getting a little emotional despite the music, of which I was hyperconscious.

[Watashi]

Letters from Iwo Jima


:crazy:

But.... it's you.

[Qrazy]

Bah Alexander was much, much worse than Kingdom of Heaven as was Troy. Kingdom of Heaven was mediocre, kind of drab. I'd like to revisit it with the Director's Cut eventually though.

[D_Davis]

My list of...

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

1. Lost in Translation
2. Stealing Beauty
3. You Me and Everyone We Know
4. V For Vendetta
5. Romeo + Juliet

[Spinal]

My list of...

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

1. Lost in Translation
2. Stealing Beauty
3. You Me and Everyone We Know
4. V For Vendetta
5. Rome + Juliet

I gave three of those a four-star rating. :)

[Qrazy]

V for Vendetta was pretty crappy.

[D_Davis]

I still think Darjeeling is his finest.

Haven't seen it, but my favorite is Rushmore, but that is constantly threatened by the understated and far less precious Bottle Rocket.

[D_Davis]

I gave three of those a four-star rating. :)

I had a feeling...

:)

[Sven]

I'd like to revisit it with the Director's Cut eventually though.

:shudders:

KoH is a perfect example of a film that completely divorces its characters from any connection to either each other or their location. Bundles of atoms careening through temporally distorted space, occassionally colliding, producing nothing resembling real human interaction or feeling. Empty, lost... The other films may be worse, but calling KoH "mediocre" is a travesty of understatement.

[Qrazy]

:shudders:

KoH is a perfect example of a film that completely divorces its characters from any connection to either each other or their location. Bundles of atoms careening through temporally distorted space, occassionally colliding, producing nothing resembling real human interaction or feeling. Empty, lost... The other films may be worse, but calling KoH "mediocre" is a travesty of understatement.

I dunno I could see it becoming your new favorite film upon a rewatch... :P

Also I don't agree, I think Ed Norton's role alone refutes much of that. I found it to be a powerful and affecting small performance.

[Sven]

I dunno I could see it becoming your new favorite film upon a rewatch... :P

Nononono... as I said, that one I watched recently enough to know pretty well where I stand on it.

[Sven]

5. Romeo + Juliet

Funny that you mention this one, because I just barely sold my copy online for 7 bucks! I'm sure I got it for less (rockin' the Blockbuster employment, baby).

[Watashi]

Funny that you mention this one, because I just barely sold my copy online for 7 bucks! I'm sure I got it for less (rockin' the Blockbuster employment, baby).
You work at Blockbuster?

Creepy.

[Sven]

You work at Blockbuster?

Creepy.

Used to.

[Winston*]

I watched some of Romeo + Juliet on TV the other day. I think it's a movie you can sit down and watch for 10 minutes and be like "This movie is pretty fun in an incredibly stupid way" and then like three minutes later be like "What was I thinking? Fuck you Baz Luhrman.".

[Qrazy]

Hmmm I've only seen Moulin Rouge and basically felt that way Winston... not sure if I'm going to explore his other films or not... I probably will in the end.

[Winston*]

Hmmm I've only seen Moulin Rouge and basically felt that way Winston... not sure if I'm going to explore his other films or not... I probably will in the end.

You are the completiest completest of all time.

[transmogrifier]

My list of...

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

3. You Me and Everyone We Know
4. V For Vendetta


I have your back on these. The others, not so much.

Stealing Beauty may be my choice for film I absolutely adore that know one else I have ever met has liked.

[Boner M]

I pretended to like Moulin Rouge! for about a week in high school to try and impress a girl I liked, but then found out she was already with someone.

That's where my positive feelings toward Baz Lurhmann end.

[B-side]

Sounds like you didn't think very deeply about it. There's quite a lot more going on in the film than fleeting romance, both formally and psychologically. I mean it's fair to find it boring or to dislike it but there's a lot of depth to the film.

Oh, I didn't mean to really discredit its thematic content. I had a nice little convo on RT about some of its more difficult to grasp content. Definitely makes me more confident I'll like it more the 2nd time around.

[Boner M]

Five worst? Hmm.

Southland Tales
Hard Candy
A Vampire in Brooklyn
Top Gun
Patch Adams

Pretty standard, but there ya go.

[Boner M]

Weekend

Gomorrah
The Rain People
The Roaring Twenties
The Woman in the Window

[Derek]

The Woman in the Window[/b]

Good stuff. I like this quite a bit more than that other Lang/Robinson collab.

[Winston*]

Worst movies

Clerks II
Becoming Jane
House of 1000 Corpses
Down to Earth with Chris Rock
Bend it Like Beckham: Extended Director's Cut


Weekend viewings

More of The Wire
Maybe In Bruges in theatres.

[Derek]

Down to Earth with Chris Rock

For your reference, http://realityrollcall.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/chrisrock.jpg

[soitgoes...]

Weekend:
The Great War
The Railroad Man
Revanche
Phantom (Murnau)
Satyricon

[transmogrifier]

Worst movies


Bend it Like Beckham: Extended Director's Cut



Now with 45% more montage!

I shudder to think...

[Barty]

Not really, it's a pretty interesting question, although essentially a matter of semantics and opinion. First off the United States of America held the secession to be illegal

Well, you would be wrong there also. Since 11 of them clearly believed it was not illegal.

[balmakboor]

Not a scrap.

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

Patch Adams
Pearl Harbor
Kingdom of Heaven
Bubble
maybe Letters from Iwo Jima

Not sure about that last one, but the top four I'm positive about. The last one is an offense of utter mediocrity.

I'm not sure if the first two had artistic aspirations. The only one of those I've seen is Bubble which I liked. It wasn't as good as it could've been, but nothing by Soderbergh ever has been -- except King of the Hill and hopefully Che.

[Wryan]

Strictly Ballroom had its moments, as does MR!. Nobody should really be making R&J movies after Zeffirelli.

[Ezee E]

I have the same reaction to Romeo + Juliet as Winston.

"Hey, Shakespeare in the modern world. Not so bad. Leo's still good."

Then Leguizamo pops his face in.

"Oh god."

[Raiders]

...The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou is an ascendant film, comprised of moments of such emotional (and of course visual) precision that words can barely describe it. Strange, and yet familiar. I fought it when I saw it in theaters, perhaps that era being one of a typically youthful hyper-intellectualization. The film is so gloriously chopped, practically worthy of Peckinpah in its assemblage, though more Renoir in visual resplendence. It's funny, it's moving (a couple of motions are a bit pat... I could do without "I need a baby for this father" and the swelling music punctuating the appearance of the jaguar shark was a bit trite), it's practically the reason we have cinema.

Previous rating: *1/2
New rating: ****

:pritch:

[megladon8]

Top five worst films I've seen with artistic aspirations?

Well, this is going off the top of my head, but probably something like this...

Contempt
The Brothers Grimm
Phantom of the Opera (Argento)
Garden State
Irreversible

Granted a couple of these have a few saving graces (Heath Ledger in Brothers Grimm; Monica Bellucci in Irreversible), but on the whole all five of these movies were pretty crappy.

[Raiders]

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

King of Hearts
The African Queen
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
A Boy and His Dog
Gummo

[Boner M]

Fine then, I'll revisit TLAWSZ. Stupid match-cut.


A Boy and His Dog
Oh yeah, good choice.

Qualifying my list for the 'with artistic aspirations' criteria, I'd sub A Vampire in Brooklyn and Top Gun with Cries and Whispers and Babel (yes, I gave the latter a just-below-average rating upon its release, but a second viewing made me realise how yuckypoo it is).

[Ezee E]

Vampire in Brooklyn is the Nic Cage movie, yes? That might make my worst list.

I'll think up of my 5 with artistic aspirations today. Synecdoche could be there... Worse and worse as I think about it.

Weekend:
The House Bunny
The Furies
The Naked Spur
Lost

[Boner M]

Vampire in Brooklyn is the Nic Cage movie, yes? That might make my worst list.
Nah, Eddie Murphy. You're thinking of Vampire's Kiss. Which I liked (solely for Cage).

[Ezee E]

Nah, Eddie Murphy. You're thinking of Vampire's Kiss. Which I liked (solely for Cage).
Every fan of Nic Cage should see that movie. It's his most "Nic Cage" of all.

Five worst "ambitious" movies:
-The Perfect Storm
-Last Year in Marienbad
-West Side Story
-Clerks
-Jules and Jim
Honorable Mention: The Hours

[Mysterious Dude]

Top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) I've ever seen:

Boys Town (1938)
Week End (1967)
Color of Pomegranates (1968)
Salo (1976)
Inland Empire (2006)

[Sven]

The African Queen

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[Boner M]

Five worst "ambitious" movies:
-The Perfect Storm
-Last Year in Marienbad
I really hope someone has already neg repped you today.

[D_Davis]

I've seen Clerks listed twice; did that film really have such great artistic ambition? To me it was just a little slacker indie film funded with a dude's credit card. Whether one likes it or not is one thing, but I don't get the sense that Smith and Co. were striving for anything artistically important with the film.

[Ezee E]

I've seen Clerks listed twice; did that film really have such great artistic ambition? To me it was just a little slacker indie film funded with a dude's credit card. Whether one likes it or not is one thing, but I don't get the sense that Smith and Co. were striving for anything artistically important with the film.
I guess it's labeled as artistically important.

Otherwise, I'd put in Week End.

[Yxklyx]

Top five worst films I've seen with artistic aspirations?

1. Gertrud (Carl Theodor Dreyer)
2. The Suspended Vocation (Raoul Ruiz)
3. Sans soleil (Chris Marker)
4. Pierrot Le Fou (Jean-Luc Godard)
5. Reds (Warren Beaty)

[Raiders]

3. Sans soleil (Chris Marker)


Duuuuuuuude.

:crazy:

[Sven]

3. Sans soleil (Chris Marker)
4. Pierrot Le Fou (Jean-Luc Godard)
5. Reds (Warren Beaty)

Yeah, seriously man... wow. You're going to want to stay away from my top 100.

[Sycophant]

Wut?

[Duncan]

Godard is getting a lot of undeserved hate here.

[Grouchy]

Top5 Worst Ambitious Movies:

1. Lost in Translation
2. Crash
3. Babel
4. Coeurs (the last one by Resnais)
5. Hard Candy

[Qrazy]

Well, you would be wrong there also. Since 11 of them clearly believed it was not illegal.

I said the United States held it to be illegal and since those 11 states resigned their seats, they effectively waved the right to have any say in the legality of the issue. However it is again another matter of semantics and opinion. At the time of the Civil War the constitution did not clearly accept nor deny the right to secede. Many cite the tenth amendment as justification for the right to succeed. It is not quite that. The Articles of Confederation certainly ruled out the right to secede and the supreme court precedent set after the war in 1868 in Texas vs. White ruled against the right to secede as well.

Still neither of these rulings fundamentally determine whether or not it was legal to secede post The Articles of Confederation or prior to the ruling of 1868. Since Jefferson Davis was never brought to trial the legality will never be officially determined one way or the other. His lack of a trial is often used as circumstantial evidence for secession but since he was not actually brought to trial there is no official legal precedent. Therefore on a legal level there is no definitive answer. On a general political level 11 states is not all of the states agreeing on a dissolution or even a majority of the states so if secession were essentially something that could be voted upon (which it is not), it would not have passed.

[Sycophant]

Would it be possible to sever this Civil War disucssion into its own thread? It's not about Gone With the Wind anymore and is detracting from the lunacy of Sans Soleil-hatred.

I think it's a fine discussion to have, and I'll read it, but I'd prefer for it to be thrown into the Kitchen Sink.

[Qrazy]

Top five worst (artistic aspirations):

5. Crash
4. Funny Games
3. Flaming Creatures
2. Celine and Julie Go Boating
1. Autumn Sonata

Not my official list but off the top of my head.

[Duncan]

I saw that, Qrazy.

Just so everybody knows: Qrazy almost put Vivre Sa Vie on his list.

[Raiders]

Qrazy almost put Vivre Sa Vie on his list.

Neg rep worthy. Though Celine and Julie and Flaming Creatures added up are neg rep worthy as well.

[balmakboor]

Movies in my top 25 that have appeared on top five worst films (with artistic aspirations) lists:

Contempt
Gummo
Salo
Sans Soleil
Pierrot le fou

The last two easily in my top five favorites.

[Winston*]

I've seen Clerks listed twice; did that film really have such great artistic ambition? To me it was just a little slacker indie film funded with a dude's credit card. Whether one likes it or not is one thing, but I don't get the sense that Smith and Co. were striving for anything artistically important with the film.

I listed Clerks II. Smith totally had artistic aspirations with that one.

Also, my list wasn't' entirely serious and I find this whole line of "worst filmz evar" conversation to be silly.

[Ezee E]

Godard is getting a lot of undeserved hate here.
If it means anything, he's the only director that has something in my favorites and most hated lists.

[balmakboor]

If it means anything, he's the only director that has something in my favorites and most hated lists.

Godard has films that I love in parts and am bored by in parts. Especially Tout va bien and Notre Musique. I've never disliked one completely though, not yet. On the other hand though, there are a number that I adore completely: Pierrot le fou, Contempt, Band of Outsiders, A Woman is a Woman, and La Chinoise.

[Sycophant]

Indeed. I found Band of Outsiders and Pierrot Le Fou exciting and invigorating, but found both Contempt and A Woman Is a Woman to be pretty shrill and grating.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Top 5 worst ambitious movies
1. A.I.
2. Synecdoche, New York
3. Death in Venice
4. Letter from an Unknown Woman
5. Crash and The African Queen seem good enough for a worst list.

First I thought of, probably something worse I'm forgetting

[balmakboor]

Indeed. I found Band of Outsiders and Pierrot Le Fou exciting and invigorating, but found both Contempt and A Woman Is a Woman to be pretty shrill and grating.

While it didn't have the same effect on me, I can understand your finding A Woman is a Woman shrill. Not so much Contempt.

I got around to re-visiting Pierrot le fou recently and found a whole new passion for it. Oddly, it reminded me of Tati's Trafic quite a bit. Not sure why. It was made long before Tati's film and I doubt Tati was influenced much by it, if at all. Probably just two French road movies from roughly the same time period.

[balmakboor]

Add two more to my list of scorned favorites:

A.I.
Death in Venice

[Raiders]

Can someone who has seen Barbet Schroeder's Idi Amin clarify for me that this is the same thing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=41696009565730 58582

Seems it must be due to the Criterion logo at the beginning, but from the first few minutes I couldn't be sure.

[soitgoes...]

Can someone who has seen Barbet Schroeder's Idi Amin clarify for me that this is the same thing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=41696009565730 58582

Seems it must be due to the Criterion logo at the beginning, but from the first few minutes I couldn't be sure.
It most definitely is, but the quality is lousy. The DVD looked much better. Whichever way you decide to watch it, the important thing is that you do indeed watch it. It is fabulous.

[dreamdead]

The Furies has so much potential that it's a travesty that it spoils the ingredients for a marvelous film. The film's framing is as luminescent as any of Mann's films, but the story comes off as too schematic. The ambivalence with which men hit Stanwyck's Vance and then kiss her is a sordid representation of misogyny and the male gaze, and the only way to save those scenes is if Vance is positioned as a self-destructive fetishist herself. I doubt that Mann was working that angle. Otherwise, Huston's T.C. comes off as too foolhardy to deserve memorializing at the end, so only if we're meant to critique Vance and Rip can we accept their eulogizing. And I don't get that feeling from Mann here. As such, it ends up being a lackluster experience.

[Sven]

Schoeder is awesome. He's another underrated filmmaker that I'd like to claim.

[soitgoes...]

Schoeder is awesome. He's another underrated filmmaker that I'd like to claim.
I claimed him in my mind 20 minutes ago.

[Melville]

Fine then, I'll revisit TLAWSZ. Stupid match-cut.
Yeah, I'm beginning to think that my initial negative reaction was mostly due to having too high expectations.


Qualifying my list for the 'with artistic aspirations' criteria, I'd sub A Vampire in Brooklyn and Top Gun with Cries and Whispers
:confused:


Melville, I'm not going to respond
Excellent. That's about as much Gone with the Wind talk as I can handle, especially since I haven't seen it in at least 5 years.


Top 5 worst ambitious movies
2. Synecdoche, New York

What's the deal with all the hate this is getting?


My top 5 worst movies with artistic aspirations
1. El Topo
2. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
3. The Passion of the Christ
4. The Umbrellas of Cherbourg
5. The Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions (I'm pretty sure they had aspirations)

Also, a movie I saw at TIFF called Kinetta. If you ever get the chance to see that movie...don't take that chance.

[Watashi]

Top 5 Worst:

1. Ken Park
2. Pearl Harbor
3. Margot at the Wedding
4. Waking Life
5. Blindness/The Piano Teacher

HM: Igby Goes Down, Crash, Elizabethtown, Mr. Holland's Opus, Dreamcatcher

[Ezee E]

Dreamcatcher is artistically ambitious?

Good call on Pearl Harbor though. Haven't seen Ken Park, but I can only imagine.

Have you seen Bully though?

[Yxklyx]

4. The Umbrellas of Cherbourg

:frustrated:

[Melville]

Top 5 Worst:

1. Ken Park
2. Pearl Harbor
3. Margot at the Wedding
4. Waking Life
5. Blindness/The Piano Teacher

HM: Igby Goes Down, Crash, Elizabethtown, Mr. Holland's Opus, Dreamcatcher
Pearl Harbor had artistic aspirations? Good call with Waking Life.

[Duncan]

Waking Life is a good choice for worst movie ever.

And I echo Melville's befuddlement about the Synecdoche hate. The film is funny, highly original, and has a lot to say even if you don't agree with the ideas that emerge. I also think it's technically underrated.

[Ezee E]

Pearl Harbor had artistic aspirations? Good call with Waking Life.
Pearl Harbor was certainly being advertised as being more important than a "summer blockbuster." I haven't seen it since it came out, but I'd say it tried showing a bit of everything with an attempt at merit, with a Titanic-esque love story connecting them all together.

Yeah, I'd say it's a fair pick.

[Melville]

:frustrated:
Hey, if you can put a Dreyer film as your number one worst movie, I can put a grating musical as my 4th.

[Ezee E]

Waking Life is a good choice for worst movie ever.

And I echo Melville's befuddlement about the Synecdoche hate. The film is funny, highly original, and has a lot to say even if you don't agree with the ideas that emerge. I also think it's technically underrated.
Guess I disagree. I didn't laugh at all, except for some of the scenes where Michelle Williams and Samantha Morten shared time together. And while it was as ambitious as the play he put together, I got more and more agitated as time went on. Blegh.

[Mysterious Dude]

Godard is getting a lot of undeserved hate here.
When he is good, he is very, very good. When he is bad, he is horrid.

[Melville]

Pearl Harbor was certainly being advertised as being more important than a "summer blockbuster."
Was it? I don't remember. The idea of Bruckheimer being associated with artistic aspirations just didn't seem right to me.

[Duncan]

I didn't laugh at all, except for some of the scenes where Michelle Williams and Samantha Morten shared time together.
Weird. I was laughing pretty consistently. I don't get all the reviews claiming it was overly depressing.

[Sycophant]

1. El TopoI haven't decided whether or not I hate the Jodorowsky films, but I was most certainly annoyed by both this and The Holy Mountain (though there are individual images and moments that I appreciated in both).

5. The Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions (I'm pretty sure they had aspirations)They were made of aspirations.

These are the five worst that I'm coming up with at 1:37 p.m. on December 18, 2008, that are either somewhat respected or aspired to be respected...

Pearl Harbor
The Nativity (I think it set out to be good... maybe.)
Southland Tales
Juno
Corpse Bride

I'm also going to mention Love Actually because I think I watched it like exactly a year ago.

They're all suspiciously recent, but oh how I hate them!

[Sven]

Hey, if you can put a Dreyer film as your number one worst movie, I can put a grating musical as my 4th.

Awesome.

My original intention with clarifying my list with the term "aspiration" is that it doesn't really matter that someone says a movie like Not Another Teen Movie or The Mummy 2 is worst movies they've ever seen. It's expected. And some Michael Bay (Bad Boys, Transformers) falls into that "brainless" category. I do think that Pearl Harbor was trying to transcend its very obvious reason for existing, which was to watch shit explode. It failed. Not even the explosions were cool. Biggest pet peeve: "At least the attack scene was cool." 1) No it wasn't. 2) You have no idea how to contextualize a film.

[Sycophant]

Guess I disagree. I didn't laugh at all, except for some of the scenes where Michelle Williams and Samantha Morten shared time together. And while it was as ambitious as the play he put together, I got more and more agitated as time went on. Blegh.

I was laughing pretty much constantly through this movie.

[Melville]

Guess I disagree. I didn't laugh at all, except for some of the scenes where Michelle Williams and Samantha Morten shared time together.
Is this a common response? I didn't think the humor was all that idiosyncratic. At the theater where Duncan and I saw it, the entire audience was laughing pretty consistently.

[Melville]

I haven't decided whether or not I hate the Jodorowsky films, but I was most certainly annoyed by both this and The Holy Mountain (though there are individual images and moments that I appreciated in both).
I'm still holding out hope for Holy Mountain, though disliked Santa sangre almost as much as El Topo.

[Winston*]

Hey, if you can put a Dreyer film as your number one worst movie, I can put a grating musical as my 4th.
I turned off The Umbrellas of Cherbourg after 20 minutes. Jesus Christ, it was unbearable.

[Sven]

I turned off The Umbrella's of Cherbourg after 20 minutes. Jesus Christ, it was unbearable.

Rep for you, too.

[Melville]

Awesome.


I turned off The Umbrella's of Cherbourg after 20 minutes. Jesus Christ, it was unbearable.
:pritch:

[soitgoes...]

1. The Passion of the Christ
2. Victory
3. Psycho (Van Sant)
4. Prêt-Ã*-Porter
5. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Only films that were made with aspirations of artistic merit. None of these come close to cracking a "Top 20 Worst Films I've Ever Seen" list. Only The Passion would fall in a Top 50 worst films. Dana Carvey in The Master of Disguise laughs at these films failure to fail to his level.

[Sven]

2. Victory

John Huston, POW, soccer? You suck.

And I'll defend the Altman film. Of course I will. It's great!

[Melville]

Dana Carvey in The Master of Disguise laughs at these films failure to fail to his level.
That scene where he suddenly, for no particular reason, starts spinning on the floor was better than anything in The Passion of the Christ.

[Duncan]

My list:

Elephant
Waking Life
No Country for Old Men
Pickup on South Street
The Fountain / Pi

[Winston*]

I've seen The Master of Disguise also.

[soitgoes...]

John Huston, POW, soccer? You suck.

And I'll defend the Altman film. Of course I will. It's great!
I knew I'd get a reply from you for both these films. :lol:

[Sven]

Elephant
Waking Life

Good calls.


No Country for Old Men

Wasn't your main complaint the film's "nihilism"? Didn't you also say (elsewhere) that you enjoyed nihilism? I'm remembering incorrectly, I'm sure.


Pickup on South Street

I'm curious...

[Ezee E]

Is this a common response? I didn't think the humor was all that idiosyncratic. At the theater where Duncan and I saw it, the entire audience was laughing pretty consistently.
The influence of a crowd can certainly help make or break a movie. My theater had a few sympathetic laughs, but generally seemed entirely bored. I was the same. While I wouldn't label it as depressing, I would say that Philip's character is one of the more pathetic characters I've seen in any movie. In a ways, that's sort of a compliment.

[Qrazy]

3. Death in Venice


Good call, that would probably make my top 10 worst along with The Man Who Fell to Earth.

[Melville]

The influence of a crowd can certainly help make or break a movie. My theater had a few sympathetic laughs, but generally seemed entirely bored. I was the same. While I wouldn't label it as depressing, I would say that Philip's character is one of the more pathetic characters I've seen in any movie. In a ways, that's sort of a compliment.
Yeah, a less amused audience probably would have dampened my appreciation for the humor. But the pathetic character surely would have won me over anyway. I love pathetic characters.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that my initial negative reaction was mostly due to having too high expectations.


:confused:


Excellent. That's about as much Gone with the Wind talk as I can handle, especially since I haven't seen it in at least 5 years.


What's the deal with all the hate this is getting?


My top 5 worst movies with artistic aspirations
1. El Topo
2. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
3. The Passion of the Christ
4. The Umbrellas of Cherbourg
5. The Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions (I'm pretty sure they had aspirations)

Also, a movie I saw at TIFF called Kinetta. If you ever get the chance to see that movie...don't take that chance.

Aw come on, El Topo is hilarious.

[Qrazy]

1. The Passion of the Christ
2. Victory
3. Psycho (Van Sant)
4. Prêt-Ã*-Porter
5. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Only films that were made with aspirations of artistic merit. None of these come close to cracking a "Top 20 Worst Films I've Ever Seen" list. Only The Passion would fall in a Top 50 worst films. Dana Carvey in The Master of Disguise laughs at these films failure to fail to his level.

I'm with you man, The Master of Disguise is the worst film I've ever seen.

[Watashi]

My list:

Elephant
Waking Life
No Country for Old Men
Pickup on South Street
The Fountain / Pi

I remember you being sorta negative on these films (particularly NCFOM), but how did they drop into a top 5 (artistic inspired) worst ever?

[Qrazy]

I'm still holding out hope for Holy Mountain, though disliked Santa sangre almost as much as El Topo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB6uOVxBRZY

It's weird to me that you can enjoy Kenneth Anger so much and not like Jodorowsky. Then again I like Jodorowsky and not Anger so there you go I suppose.

[Qrazy]

That scene where he suddenly, for no particular reason, starts spinning on the floor was better than anything in The Passion of the Christ.

Turtle. Turtle was the only good part about that film.

[soitgoes...]

I'm with you man, The Master of Disguise is the worst film I've ever seen.
To be fair, on any given day I could say The Master of Disguise, Toys, Jaws: The Revenge or The Giant Claw is the worst film I have ever seen.

[Watashi]

Only on Match Cut where The Master of Disguise would be compared to The Passion of the Christ.

[Qrazy]

To be fair, on any given day I could say The Master of Disguise, Toys, Jaws: The Revenge or The Giant Claw is the worst film I have ever seen.

Thankfully I have not seen any of those others.

[Watashi]

To be fair, on any given day I could say The Master of Disguise, Toys, Jaws: The Revenge or The Giant Claw is the worst film I have ever seen.
Jaws: The Revenge is a cult classic.

How dare you lump it in with those other films.

[Raiders]

Only on Match Cut where The Master of Disguise would be compared to The Passion of the Christ.

You're right. Dana Carvey deserves better.

[MadMan]

Weekend:

*The Great Escape
*Hell Ride-A friend bought this. Not sure if it will be any good, but we'll see.

The Changling and Zach and Miri Make a Porno are at my local cheap theater, but I think I'll pass on both. There's really nothing out in my area right now worth seeing. Maybe Transporter 3, but I'm not sure I want to spend $8.00 on that.

[soitgoes...]

Jaws: The Revenge is a cult classic.

How dare you lump it in with those other films.
It's a cult classic because of it's level of suck.

[megladon8]

Duncan reminded me about Elephant.

What a steaming turd of self-importance that one was.

Actually, aside from Good Will Hunting I haven't liked anything by Gus Van Sant at all.

[Raiders]

I'm becoming depressed. Let's knock this conversation off.

[Melville]

Only on Match Cut where The Master of Disguise would be compared to The Passion of the Christ.
Between us, Qrazy and I like two moments in Master of Disguise. I doubt we can say the same about The Passion of the Christ. Unless he likes two moments on his own.

[Duncan]

Wasn't your main complaint the film's "nihilism"? Didn't you also say (elsewhere) that you enjoyed nihilism? I'm remembering incorrectly, I'm sure. I don't remember ever saying I enjoyed nihilism. I made some tongue-in-cheek remark about The Pledge. No Country for Old Men, ultimately, adopts a nihilistic point of view. At least, I think it does. But I also think it goes further than that. It denies goodness its chance to assert itself. Every dream is extinguished. Every act of kindness is punished. I hate resorting to good vs. evil dichotomies because I believe them to be false, but this film uses them so I will discuss them within its context. No Country for Old Men says evil has always and will always be here. Fine. True enough. But it also suggests that evil will, for lack of a better expression, "win." Or that there is no use fighting evil because life is meaningless anyway. Which is bullshit. First, because that good vs. evil dichotomy is false. Second, because even when contextualized with those terms it is, from experiential knowledge, wrong. But, again, can't emphasize enough how much I disagree with its simplistic views on morality.

I'm curious...
I had a review on the old site, but I guess that's gone now. Basically, the gender politics in this film bothered me to an inordinate degree. I thought the initial theft was played like a rape scene. Worse, it plays like a rape enjoyed by the victim. At the very least it came off as a violation. Nothing the film does after that redeems this, or suggests that this reading is incorrect. It's a film about a hero who beats the leading lady, and a woman who falls in love with him for it. It's also got some crass political red herring that's about as complex as your typical terrorist threat in today's films.

[Spinal]

The Passion of the Christ is utterly ridiculous, but Braveheart is worse. Never understood why that one gets a pass from people I consider reasonable. Definitely one of my least favorite.

War is Menstrual Envy is the worst film I have ever made it all the way through. Tedious, obnoxious and morally questionable.

Others that come to mind:

The Ninth Gate
The Scarlet Letter
Meet the Feebles
Iron Eagle
Maximum Overdrive
The Fog
The Beast
Modesty Blaise

Worst film by a director I consider a legend: Heart of Glass.

[Melville]

The Passion of the Christ is utterly ridiculous, but Braveheart is worse. Never understood why that one gets a pass from people I consider reasonable.
The battle scenes are awesome.

[Spinal]

Every act of kindness is punished.

Not true. Think of the kids who witness the car crash and offer assistance. That's a key scene.

[Rowland]

The worst movie I can recall recently sitting through was Chris Rock's Head of State. That shit was painful.

[Duncan]

I remember you being sorta negative on these films (particularly NCFOM), but how did they drop into a top 5 (artistic inspired) worst ever?

No Country for Old Men I've discussed enough to hate.
Pickup on South Street I mention above.
Waking Life I've always hated. Hate that movie.
Elephant is a pointless, insulting film.
The Fountain is a film that I've been kind of silent on because people here get so worked up about it. I've always thought it was a particularly ambitious film that ended up a laughable, epic fail.
Pi I was just reminded of because of The Fountain, but I think it's mathematical justifications for meaning are about as ridiculous and insidious as intelligent design's explanations for God's role in evolution.

[eternity]

Elephant- 93
Waking Life- 78
No Country for Old Men- 91
Pickup on South Street- n/a
The Fountain- 85
Pi-83

I take it I should see Pickup on South Street, right?

[Duncan]

Not true. Think of the kids who witness the car crash and offer assistance. That's a key scene.

They offer assistance to a man who has just murdered a woman for no particular reason other than that he's an unthinking killing machine, thus aiding in "evil's" triumph, and then promptly start arguing over the money he gives them, perpetuating the greed and worthlessness that plagues humanity.

That's how I read it.

I enjoy Heart of Glass. I mostly only remember a few hallucinatory scenes though. And the ending. The ending is quality.

[Sven]

Thanks, Duncan.

[Spinal]

They offer assistance to a man who has just murdered a woman for no particular reason other than that he's an unthinking killing machine, thus aiding in "evil's" triumph, and then promptly start arguing over the money he gives them, perpetuating the greed and worthlessness that plagues humanity.

That's how I read it.


Hmmm ... I don't really see how the character of the 'victim' matters since they have no way of knowing that at the time. Nor do they anticipate any reward for their actions, although it is indeed given later. I just remember that 'offering someone the shirt off your back' being a very clear part of the scene. I'm somewhat sympathetic to your position, but I suppose the point of view doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does you.

[Melville]

I thought Heart of Glass was pretty bad, but it was visually stunning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5D-VQMJ6jw

Plus, it had those awesome glass sculptors.

[megladon8]

For anyone interested, the next Dragon Dynasty release (coming out January 13th) is Supercop...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51esHFAQ9xL._SS500_.jpg

[Milky Joe]

My reading of NCFOM was that Chigurh was a representation of death, and not the more general "evil." Maybe that comes more from the book than the movie, but I never got the sense of a "good vs. evil" dichotomy.

[transmogrifier]

I turned off The Umbrellas of Cherbourg after 20 minutes. Jesus Christ, it was unbearable.

Not unbearable, but pretty boring. It's amazes me that the general consensus sides with this film rather than the leagues more impressive The Young Girls of Rochefort.

[Winston*]

That scene from No Country is meant to echo the earlier scene where Brolin meets the older teenagers on the bridge, no? The older teenager are entirely selfish and the scene with the younger kids is mean to show a progression towards that.

[Robby P]

In the book the two kids find a gun in the front seat and start fighting over it as well as the reward money. It's supposed to be ironic, as their generosity ultimately comes to spoil their innocence. I think that's what the Coen's were shooting for as well.

It's supposed to signify that even good people can become corrupted, often unintentionally. Whether we make selfish or unselfish choices, we're all doomed to the same fate, essentially.

[eternity]

First five to come to mind:

-Babel
-Into the Wild
-Manderlay/Dogville
-Redacted
-Magnolia

All of these got a 20 or below from me, which is usually always reserved for the Disaster Movie's of cinema.

[Philosophe_rouge]

First five to come to mind:

-Babel
-Into the Wild
-Manderlay/Dogville
-Redacted
-Magnolia
Into the Wild is a good choice.

[Boner M]

Ugh. Guys, let's just discuss ratings now. Or how about 'worst films with autistic aspirations'? That could be fun!

[transmogrifier]

So what we are pretty much doing now is listing five films we don't like that we know most others do?

[Winston*]

It's like the Unpopular Opinions thread redux.

[Watashi]

Not unbearable, but pretty boring. It's amazes me that the general consensus sides with this film rather than the leagues more impressive The Young Girls of Rochefort.
I don't understand how one can love Rochefort and hate Cherbourg. They're pretty similar. Wafer-thin melodrama filled with exotic and color-palate musical dialogue.

[Qrazy]

I don't understand how one can love Rochefort and hate Cherbourg. They're pretty similar. Wafer-thin melodrama filled with exotic and color-palate musical dialogue.

1. More dancing.
2. Singing songs and not every word of the script.

I don't hate Cherbourg though but I do prefer Rochefort.

[Russ]

You know how some movies really grow on you? You like them more and more each time you see them? Eyes Wide Shut is like that. I think the fact that I always found it a bit baffling is maybe part of the allure.

[Sycophant]

For anyone interested, the next Dragon Dynasty release (coming out January 13th) is Supercop...
OH MY GOD WHAT DID THEY DO TO MICHELLE YEOH'S HANDS?!

[Wryan]

Others that come to mind:
Meet the Feebles


Is this just one of the worst you've ever made it through or part of the artistic aspirations discussion?

Cause.....

[DavidSeven]

Five bad ones with artistic aspirations:

Summer of Sam
King Lear (Godard)
Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me
Funny Ha Ha
United 93

[Wryan]

And yes this artistic inspiration stuff has got to stop. People aren't even making sense anymore. There's a lot of goddamn good films on some of these lists.

[Robby P]

Doesn't every movie have artistic aspirations? This seems like a pointless exercise.

[Sycophant]

I thought this has been fun. And it's getting us back to our old "Oh my god, Match Cutters are insane" roots. I've found it refreshing.

[Qrazy]

Doesn't every movie have artistic aspirations? This seems like a pointless exercise.

Wide scope versus narrow scope definitions of artistic. Russ Meyer and Tinto Brass don't have much in the way of artistic aspirations (narrow scope).

[Qrazy]

I thought this has been fun. And it's getting us back to our old "Oh my god, Match Cutters are insane" roots. I've found it refreshing.

Yeah count me as another in favor of it.

[Spinal]

-Babel
-Manderlay/Dogville
-Magnolia


15 1/2 stars

[Spinal]

Is this just one of the worst you've ever made it through or part of the artistic aspirations discussion?

Cause.....

I didn't really understand the 'artistic aspirations' qualifier, so I ignored it.

[Raiders]

Russ Meyer and Tinto Brass

This grouping makes me weep.

[Spinal]

Cheeky! > Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

Antagonism!

[Russ]

Cheeky! > Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!
Tura Satana gonna bitch-slap some neg rep into you, if you ain't careful.

[Spinal]

I am shocked SHOCKED! to be getting neg-rep threats when I'm fairly confident that only Grouchy and I have seen the film in question. :)

[Russ]

I am shocked SHOCKED! to be getting neg-rep threats when I'm fairly confident that only Grouchy and I have seen the film in question. :)

http://209.85.48.10/2898/7/emo/blush.gif

















http://209.85.48.10/2898/7/emo/notworthy.gif

[Spinal]

If I coerce just one Match Cutter into queuing up Cheeky!, I will have made a difference. Perhaps over the holidays, you can watch it with the family.

[Raiders]

The gauntlet has been thus thrown down. I will watch this Cheeky! movie.

[Russ]

* Wonders if there is much difference between this "Cheeky" movie and "A Goofy Movie" *

* reads IMDb description *

:eek:

Why yes. Yes, there is.

[Spinal]

Success! Your reaction will be ... highly entertaining. :lol:

[Bosco B Thug]

There's one film I really want to mention concerning the current discussion on "Not Good" movies with artistic aspirations... it's a 4 word title and it's about a limping man who serves a God of greed because he's too socially incapable of joy and pleasure, seriously creeping out people around him because it's all he can do.

It's an epically hollow character study called MANOS: HANDS OF FATE.

I will also mention, of the top of my head, bad Korean ghost horror films, like Acacia (empty-headed elegance) and disastrous fantasy films like What Dreams May Come. Oh, and Cat People.


3. Flaming Creatures I don't know what to do with Flaming Creatures. I watched it meaning to launch myself into an "avant garde film" phase, but while I thought it was striking and impressed by its innovation of flaccid penises, I'm pretty indifferent. All its ideas are in its aesthetic, which I've found I'm never satisfied with (case in point, Double Life of Veronique).


The gauntlet has been thus thrown down. I will watch this Cheeky! movie.
I'll see it maybe. FPKK will be hard to beat, especially since the one Tinto Brass film tells me he's ambitious but too hyperactive.

[monolith94]

Victory from 1919 is awesome.

[monolith94]

Victory from 1919 is awesome.
This post was meant to quote an earlier post regarding Victory as being some sort of top 5 worst movies w/ art ambitions.

[Qrazy]

I don't know what to do with Flaming Creatures. I watched it meaning to launch myself into an "avant garde film" phase, but while I thought it was striking and impressed by its innovation of flaccid penises, I'm pretty indifferent. All its ideas are in its aesthetic, which I've found I'm never satisfied with (case in point, Double Life of Veronique).


I have no problem with avant-garde cinema (Deren, Brakhage, Conner, Vertov) or as you phrase it films which place their ideas in their aesthetic/form. I just find Flaming Creatures aesthetic to be horrible garbage.

[Sycophant]

If I coerce just one Match Cutter into queuing up Cheeky!, I will have made a difference. Perhaps over the holidays, you can watch it with the family.

It's queued near the top and I wonder if that's why I stopped watching my Netflix rentals.

[Russ]

I just find Flaming Creatures aesthetic to be horrible garbage.
Huh. I find it to be spectacular garbage. Have you ever seen James Bidgood's Pink Narcissus?

[Spinal]

It's queued near the top and I wonder if that's why I stopped watching my Netflix rentals.

:lol:

[Qrazy]

Huh. I find it to be spectacular garbage. Have you ever seen James Bidgood's Pink Narcissus?

Nope.

[The Mike]

For anyone interested, the next Dragon Dynasty release (coming out January 13th) is Supercop...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51esHFAQ9xL._SS500_.jpg*reads intently*
"Meet the cop...that never stops. :cool:

[The Mike]

I only need ONE worst movie with "artistic ambitions"*....The 400 Blows.

Went there.

* = Cleo From 5 to 7 is close, especially considering it's a real-time film that supposed to tell what happened to Cleo from 5 to 7, but is only 90 minutes long. :frustrated:

Fuckin' French New Wave. :evil:

[Boner M]

I only need ONE worst movie with "artistic ambitions"*....The 400 Blows.

Went there.
'Splain.

[The Mike]

'Splain.

Don't really have a good explanation anymore, I've blocked the details of the film from my mind with hatred. Just remember seeing it twice in film classes and once on my own to try and figure out what could possibly make it important, interesting, or valid enough to require it being used in film classes, and ending up coming to the conclusion I never wanted to think about this movie again.

Though, as I mentioned above, pretty much the whole of French New Wave films I was forced to see had this effect on me. Too self-important for my tastes.

[Bosco B Thug]

I have no problem with avant-garde cinema (Deren, Brakhage, Conner, Vertov) or as you phrase it films which place their ideas in their aesthetic/form. I just find Flaming Creatures aesthetic to be horrible garbage.
I dunno, I was surprised by how sure-handed it was with its camera work. The only time I felt vehement towards the film was during the opening credits, where Smith makes it perfectly clear it's just a piece of paper taped to the wall the camera's pointed at. The rest of the film thankfully skipped that degree of faux amateurness.

Heavenly Creatures is awesome. The film has tons of plot and emotional threads to juggle, and the screenplay succeeds exceedingly well in doing so. I've also never seen a film fluctuate so non-problematically between exaggeration and grim "realness."

The Elephant Man was pretty meh, though, I thought. All its themes seem pretty undeveloped (especially Treaves' personal struggle), its commentary on upper class society and industrial age imagery just sort of sits there, its circus sideshow sequence is kind of baity considering Lynch, and while the final moments of the film are pretty heartwarming, why should that very final, voice-overed line mean much to me?

[Melville]

I just watched Flaming Creatures on ubuweb. It was pretty spectacular, in my opinion. I agree with Bosco and Duncan that it was aesthetically masterful; the off-kilter compositions (and the occasional classically on-kilter compositions with perfect arrangements of partially undressed bodies), the use of jump-cuts, over-exposed images, low-contrast images, iconography (loved the pop songs and the swaying lantern), jitters and flickers, and the switches between silence, voice recordings, abstract sounds and popular music were all terrifically done. The aesthetic seems to depict something wonderfully primordial even during the film's most ironic moments. And I loved the shifts between horror and humor. Pure cinema, says I.

[Yxklyx]

Weekend:

Batman Begins (perhaps) - never seen it
Sorceror (maybe)
Something old and good - maybe Heavenly Creatures

[Melville]

Begotten, the beloved-by-Susan Sontag cult classic, is now available on Google video. Has anybody seen it? Is it worth seeing?

[Rowland]

The Elephant Man was pretty meh, though, I thought. All its themes seem pretty undeveloped (especially Treaves' personal struggle), its commentary on upper class society and industrial age imagery just sort of sits there, its circus sideshow sequence is kind of baity considering Lynch, and while the final moments of the film are pretty heartwarming, why should that very final, voice-overed line mean much to me?I've never understood the love for this. I haven't seen the movie recently enough to say whether or not I flat out dislike it, but my impression definitely remains tepid at best.

[Spinal]

Begotten, the beloved-by-Susan Sontag cult classic, is now available on Google video. Has anybody seen it? Is it worth seeing?

Yes and yes, though it loses steam after a while.

[D_Davis]

Begotten, the beloved-by-Susan Sontag cult classic, is now available on Google video. Has anybody seen it? Is it worth seeing?

Yes and yes. Although like Spinal said, it does loose steam. Still though, it is worth a look.

[Russ]

Worth a look for about 5 or 10 minutes, because, as stated, it not only loses steam, but becomes an interminable bore. Honestly, this film was an absolute chore to sit through.

[megladon8]

Begotten is one of the most horrifying films I have ever seen.

I felt like I watched a real-life version of the video tape from Ringu.

[Qrazy]

I just watched Flaming Creatures on ubuweb. It was pretty spectacular, in my opinion. I agree with Bosco and Duncan that it was aesthetically masterful; the off-kilter compositions (and the occasional classically on-kilter compositions with perfect arrangements of partially undressed bodies), the use of jump-cuts, over-exposed images, low-contrast images, iconography (loved the pop songs and the swaying lantern), jitters and flickers, and the switches between silence, voice recordings, abstract sounds and popular music were all terrifically done. The aesthetic seems to depict something wonderfully primordial even during the film's most ironic moments. And I loved the shifts between horror and humor. Pure cinema, says I.

*vomits*

[Melville]

Yeah, I agree with all of you. The ultra-high contrast, grainy visuals were terrific, and the movie did create an awfully eerie mood, as if it were revealing the story of lost civilizations and dead gods. But it definitely became a bit monotonous. And why did creation have to involve so much torture?

[Sven]

Since you're around, Qrazy, and I'm feeling more genial now than usual, I wish to inquire about your Thieves Highway rating. It is my fifth favorite Dassin (though it still gets a solid four stars).

[Melville]

*vomits*
Pure. Cinema.

[Rowland]

In Bruges (Martin McDonagh) 65

If this sometimes feels as though it's striving too hard for hipsterism, there are enough genuine laughs and unexpected glimmers of convincingly evinced humanity to elevate this above my middling expectations. The performances are strong across the board, as every actor is provided at least a moment or two to imbue their character with an unexpected dimension that proves most agreeable as the picture progresses. McDonagh steeps the film in a pervasive air of a catholic guilt and introspective mourning that I found difficult to swallow at the beginning, but he won me over with an unexpectedly haunting flashback that lends the proceedings an additional layer of pathos. It's just a shame that he attempts to end the picture with an egregiously self-conscious bit of cleverness that struck me as a wildly ill-advised contrivance. All-around however, I found this a very promising debut that I can imagine bumping the score up for upon repeat viewings.

[Qrazy]

Since you're around, Qrazy, and I'm feeling more genial now than usual, I wish to inquire about your Thieves Highway rating. It is my fifth favorite Dassin (though it still gets a solid four stars).

Well I quite liked it, I just graded it hard. I don't think it's as formally excellent or compelling as his best work (Night and the City and Rififi). A lot of that I think had to do with the editing and the general storyboard of the film. It was functional but it didn't grab me the way those other two films were able to. For example the cut aways to his partner seemed somewhat haphazard. There were a couple stand out scenes such as jacking up the truck by the side of the road or learning about the death of his partner. Also his back and forths with the girl were great. However the dramatic pacing of certain plot resolutions felt a little off to me as well. For instance the truck going off the road or the very end of the film with the cards... both moments seemed to be echoing other better films to me and the film's fatalism seemed rote at times rather than an unavoidable tragedy (Night and the City, Rififi, Le Trou, Army of Shadows, etc). Well I mean in Thieves Highway the tragedy was clearly unavoidable but in an overly predictable way.

Brute Force is probably my third favorite then Thieves Highway then The Naked City. I recently downloaded Never on Sunday so that will be my next Dassin outing.

[Sven]

Hmmm... well, I guess I can see you're position. It is a tough grade, though--I would think the formal elements, the imagery (love those apples) and setpieces (of which Dassin is a qualified master), as well as the dynamic bluster of the center conflict with Cobb (who's great in this movie) would set it at least a little higher. But I don't know how ratings work around here anymore.

I love Dassin's cameo in that movie. "Hey, that's a nice apple!"

Anyway, I find it strange that you would criticize the film the way you do, and then choose his most formulaic (or at least predictable) film, Brute Force, as your third favorite. It's got many great things about it, but the execution felt very conventional to me.

Anyway, check out The Law, with Mastroianni and Lollobrigida. It's incredible.

*clearly nuts about Dassin!*

[Qrazy]

Hmmm... well, I guess I can see you're position. It is a tough grade, though--I would think the formal elements, the imagery (love those apples) and setpieces (of which Dassin is a qualified master), as well as the dynamic bluster of the center conflict with Cobb (who's great in this movie) would set it at least a little higher. But I don't know how ratings work around here anymore.

I love Dassin's cameo in that movie. "Hey, that's a nice apple!"

Anyway, I find it strange that you would criticize the film the way you do, and then choose his most formulaic (or at least predictable) film, Brute Force, as your third favorite. It's got many great things about it, but the execution felt very conventional to me.

Anyway, check out The Law, with Mastroianni and Lollobrigida. It's incredible.

*clearly nuts about Dassin!*

Brute Force does have many of the same flaws but I guess I just found it more formally compelling at the time or I graded less hard back then. Basically Night and the City and Rififi are in one category and the other three are in the second category so there's really not that much of a difference between my third and fourth choices. I do love me some Mastroianni so I'll get on that asap.

For future reference...

A - Excellent
B - Above Average
C - Average
D - Below Average
F - Failure

[Yxklyx]

I always considered Thieves' Highway as the film where he comes into his own. It's also my favorite of his but I haven't seen Rififi and Night and the City in a very long time.

[Sven]

I wasn't wild about Never on Sunday (it's due for a re-visit, though), but I did love Dassin's performance in it. With this and his role is Rififi, I think he's one of the better directors-who-occassionally-acts.

[Qrazy]

Weekend:
The Great War


Good man, let me know what ya think.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Weekend
Chungking Express
Napoleon (1927)
L'Argent (1928)
Agnes of God

[Qrazy]

Hmmm I've been meaning to explore Gance and L'herbier for a while now.

[Spinal]

Dumb comedy weekend!

You Don't Mess With the Zohan
The House Bunny

[Ezee E]

In Bruges (Martin McDonagh) 65

If this sometimes feels as though it's striving too hard for hipsterism, there are enough genuine laughs and unexpected glimmers of convincingly evinced humanity to elevate this above my middling expectations. The performances are strong across the board, as every actor is provided at least a moment or two to imbue their character with an unexpected dimension that proves most agreeable as the picture progresses. McDonagh steeps the film in a pervasive air of a catholic guilt and introspective mourning that I found difficult to swallow at the beginning, but he won me over with an unexpectedly haunting flashback that lends the proceedings an additional layer of pathos. It's just a shame that he attempts to end the picture with an egregiously self-conscious bit of cleverness that struck me as a wildly ill-advised contrivance. All-around however, I found this a very promising debut that I can imagine bumping the score up for upon repeat viewings.
After being to Rome this year, I can completely understand the observations of both characters. One being bored as hell, the other being amazed by a city he's never been aware of.

The end is the weak point of the movie, but I would like to see it again.

[Winston*]

In Bruges (Martin McDonagh) 65

If this sometimes feels as though it's striving too hard for hipsterism, there are enough genuine laughs and unexpected glimmers of convincingly evinced humanity to elevate this above my middling expectations. The performances are strong across the board, as every actor is provided at least a moment or two to imbue their character with an unexpected dimension that proves most agreeable as the picture progresses. McDonagh steeps the film in a pervasive air of a catholic guilt and introspective mourning that I found difficult to swallow at the beginning, but he won me over with an unexpectedly haunting flashback that lends the proceedings an additional layer of pathos. It's just a shame that he attempts to end the picture with an egregiously self-conscious bit of cleverness that struck me as a wildly ill-advised contrivance. All-around however, I found this a very promising debut that I can imagine bumping the score up for upon repeat viewings.

Just came back from this and I pretty much agree with your take, though I did like how the film ended after the climax.

Gleeson and Farrell were indeed fantastic. Found Fiennes' performance to be kind of distractingly reminiscent of Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast.

[Ivan Drago]

Like you should be talking?

I didn't mean that in a bad way. I'm just surprised that you liked Zohan and also that more people are checking it out. Considering it's a dumb Adam Sandler comedy.

[Spinal]

I didn't mean that in a bad way. I'm just surprised that you liked Zohan and also that more people are checking it out. Considering it's a dumb Adam Sandler comedy.

I decided to give it a chance after reading an interview with Robert Smigel.

Also, I've decided that all of my initial reservations about Let the Right One In had to do with pre-conceptions I had going in and not much to do with the film itself. It's lingered so pleasantly in my mind that I've decided to jack it up to four stars and label it my top film of the year so far.

[Ezee E]

I decided to give it a chance after reading an interview with Robert Smigel.

Also, I've decided that all of my initial reservations about Let the Right One In had to do with pre-conceptions I had going in and not much to do with the film itself. It's lingered so pleasantly in my mind that I've decided to jack it up to four stars and label it my top film of the year so far.
Yeah, I moved it up to four stars as well. I've seen a few movies since then, and it's been a few weeks since I've seen the movie, but it feels like I saw it yesterday.

[Winston*]

Just came back from this and I pretty much agree with your take, though I did like how the film ended after the climax.

Gleeson and Farrell were indeed fantastic. Found Fiennes' performance to be kind of distractingly reminiscent of Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast.

One little thing irked me. When Fiennes says

"This is the shootout."
Man, I hate that cutesy meta shit.

[Rowland]

One little thing irked me. When Fiennes says

"This is the shootout."
Man, I hate that cutesy meta shit.Yeah, but moments like that are balanced by little touches like how the scene in which Fiennes has an outburst at his wife ends with him apologizing to her in a manner that appears endearingly genuine, in his asshole-ish kinda way.

[Spinal]

Yeah, I moved it up to four stars as well. I've seen a few movies since then, and it's been a few weeks since I've seen the movie, but it feels like I saw it yesterday.

Right on. I started reading the book and it's been so fun to experience the story again.

[Ezee E]

Right on. I started reading the book and it's been so fun to experience the story again.
I'll have to consider putting that book on my list to read next. How's it compared to the movie?

[Spinal]

I'll have to consider putting that book on my list to read next. How's it compared to the movie?

Only read about 50 pages. So far, pretty close, although the turmoil that the young boy is going through is expressed even more darkly.

[eternity]

This weekend:

As many damn 2008 films as I can possibly fit.

[B-side]

So a rip (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4587357/The.Good.The.Bad.The.Weird.200 8.DVDRip.XviD-BiFOS) has popped up of The Good, the Bad and the Weird...

[Boner M]

Gomorrah wasn't nearly as confusing as I'd expected it to be. Sure, a bit of foreknowledge about the various organisations involved would help, and it is quite a cold and grim film, but I think the decontextualized approach works in isolating all the criminal activity and giving it an alien, inhuman, and almost absurdist quality (the opening and closing images especially contribute to this mood) that prevents it from being completely dour. I was completely taken by how visually kinetic the film is; it's incredibly expressive even as the camera is mostly in verite/docudrama mode. I've been bitching a lot about what a crappy year this has been, but between this film, Let the Right One In and The Class, it seems like this year's 'best foreign film' lineup at the Oscars won't be a yawn for once (assuming the previous two live up to their hype).

[Rowland]

The Fall (Tarsem, 2008) 55

Beautified and polished to a fault, this imposing pet project from Tarsem is littered with aesthetic and narrative missteps that drain the proceedings of resonance and sometimes even coherence (why would this girl's nightmare resemble Svankmajer?). Nevertheless, it remains largely compelling just to see what sort of gonzo spectacle Tarsem is going to fill the screen with next, and he keeps it all grounded in humanity thanks to the naturalistic spontaneity of the young girl's performance, as well as with a strain of surprisingly silly humor that productively clashes with the stagy vistas. The climax is jaw-dropping in its operatic ferocity, mostly because of how incongruously mean-spirited it is with the preceding film. Also, there is some metaphor about cinema and the relationship between the teller and his audience in this that I couldn't figure out, though I'm sure if I liked the picture more, I'd be more willing to exert the necessary effort.

[Qrazy]

The Fall (Tarsem, 2008) 55

Beautified and polished to a fault, this imposing pet project from Tarsem is littered with aesthetic and narrative missteps that drain the proceedings of resonance and sometimes even coherence (why would this girl's nightmare resemble Svankmajer?). Nevertheless, it remains largely compelling just to see what sort of gonzo spectacle Tarsem is going to fill the screen with next, and he keeps it all grounded in humanity thanks to the naturalistic spontaneity of the young girl's performance, as well as with a strain of surprisingly silly humor that productively clashes with the stagy vistas. The climax is jaw-dropping in its operatic ferocity, mostly because of how incongruously mean-spirited it is with the preceding film. Also, there is some metaphor about cinema and the relationship between the teller and his audience in this that I couldn't figure out, though I'm sure if I liked the picture more, I'd be more willing to exert the necessary effort.

The more I think about the film the more I realize precisely how much it stole from everything around it and how half-assed it was in it's interpolation of these disparate elements. It's kind of ridiculous really. Just made the connection that the stunt montage at the end of the film is very Cinema Paradiso-esque. Also I'd say the dream sequence is more Brothers Quay than Svankmajer.

[Grouchy]

Cheeky! > Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

Antagonism!
Obviously. That girl looks like a Milo Manara drawing instead of a mere mortal.

And yeah, Begotten is definitively worth it.

Kind Hearts and Coronets is exactly the right amount of British wit I expected. Alec Guiness was awesome - also as expected - in his eight different roles, and my favorite was definitively the drunken priest. I usually like serious stuff treated with irony, so I laughed pretty hard when the more pathetic and dramatic parts of the story were treated so coldly. I also loved the ending, and I wish I'd rented the Criterion so I could check out how the Production Code changed it for the US.

[Qrazy]

Obviously. That girl looks like a Milo Manara drawing instead of a mere mortal.

And yeah, Begotten is definitively worth it.

Kind Hearts and Coronets is exactly the right amount of British wit I expected. Alec Guiness was awesome - also as expected - in his eight different roles, and my favorite was definitively the drunken priest. I usually like serious stuff treated with irony, so I laughed pretty hard when the more pathetic and dramatic parts of the story were treated so coldly. I also loved the ending, and I wish I'd rented the Criterion so I could check out how the Production Code changed it for the US.

I dunno I think my favorite role of his was as the suffragette.

[Bosco B Thug]

Re-Animator is a silly film. Offbeat enought to deserve its cult status that I held it up to ever since I first saw it, but I particularly don't find it a very meaningful work. I guess this kind of puts me up in the air about Stuart Gordon, which makes me sad. I really liked Dagon, but I can't imagine it being more "meaningful" than the very influential Re-Animator. I'll see Stuck real soon, he does at least seem to be a very good director.