View Full Version : Mara's Television List
I really believe that when television is done well, it is one of the most exciting and moving creative forums. The potential length of a television show gives writers the ability to have complicated and interconnected plot lines, and also to have characters who develop over years (instead of hours, like in film.)
All that said, of course, I admit that television has piped into mainstream America some of the most thoughtless, obscene, and cheap trash ever produced. Has any Nicolas Sparks novel reached the level of worthlessness of, say, A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila? Is any Thomas Kincaide painting as vomit-inducing as Jerry Springer? No. Television is the hands-down winner of the lowest common denominator.
Consequently, television has a bit of a bad reputation. I really believe, however, that especially in the last few years, some of the most original and thought-provoking artists are working in this medium.
I'm going to cover several bases in this thread. There will be:
*My 15 Favorite Shows of All Time (presented alphabetically, just to be a maverick.)
*My 5 favorite Guilty Pleasures.
*5 good shows that ended up Dead in the Water.
Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2008, 10:49 PM
I would rather watch the Tila Tequila show (I say that without ever having seen an episode and having no real idea what it's about other than it stars a porn actress) than read another novel by Mitch Albom.
Just sayin'. ;)
Anyway, on with the goodies!
This is a very personal list. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I would love feedback, either positive or negative. (I realize I will look like a complete dork during certain parts of this thread, especially when I reveal my Guilty Pleasures.)
A quick note on criteria, or what appeals to me:
*Writing and Dialogue: extremely important. There will not be any reality shows or talk shows on this list.
*Watchability and rewatchability: I am a creature of habit, and if I really like something, I don't get tired of it. I could eat a my favorite meal every day for the rest of my life. I reread books and rewatch films. If I watched a t.v. show once and never went back to it, then it simply wasn't very good.
*Consistency. This will come up with several of the shows. There has never been a show where every episode was perfect, but shows that skyrocket from vomit-inducing to breathtaking every other week frustrate me.
I also have a weakness for humor, supernatural elements, and attractive men.
I would rather watch the Tila Tequila show (I say that without ever having seen an episode and having no real idea what it's about other than it stars a porn actress) than read another novel by Mitch Albom.
You say that now. Spend 20 minutes with Tila Tequila and you'll wish you were meeting those five blasted people in heaven again.
Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2008, 10:53 PM
You say that now. Spend 20 minutes with Tila Tequila and you'll wish you were meeting those five blasted people in heaven again.
:eek:
That's a bold statement.
Let's start with my Top Five Guilty Pleasures.
I define a guilty pleasure as one that I enjoy at least some episodes or seasons enough to watch and rewatch them, even though I recognize that there are serious flaws. It's the sort of show where if I'm watching it on my iPod and someone I respect approaches me, I will casually cover the screen with my hand.
These are shows with serious problems from the very beginning, and not to be confused with Dead in the Water shows, where they started of consistently good and then became consistently bad.
It's okay to mock me for these choices.
In fact, I'll lose some respect for you if you don't mock these choices. After all, how could you possibly think well of someone who watches:
Guilty Pleasures: Grey's Anatomy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/01_greys_anatomy_500_375_.jpg
The Bad: Oh, where to begin. It's slutty, soapy, and sentimental. It has absolutely nothing to do with medicine. And, perhaps what bothers me the most is its glorification of infantile behavior.
The Good? In my defense, my interest in the show is only in the first two seasons, after which the increasingly maudlin melodrama acted like chemotherapy to my cancerous addiction. There were a few great moments in those first thirty-odd episodes, though.
Such as? My favorite episode in the entire series is the two-parter from season two, It's the End of the World and As We Know It. The insanely preposterous series of events (There's an unexploded bomb in a body cavity! And Meridith has her hand on the trigger! While Bailey is having her baby! And Bailey's husband is brain surgery! AAAAAAAAAAUUUGGGHHHH) is almost refreshing in its lack of dignity. Honestly, if someone had had amnesia and someone else encountered alien life, it wouldn't have stretched credulity any further. Oh! Oh! And they could have had a patient with narcolepsy.
Seriously, though, the two framing scenes at the beginning and end of these particular episodes actually kind of get to me. The beginning scene is a ridiculous dream sequence where George imagines that he's in the shower with Meredith, Izzy and Christina all washing each other erotically, only to wake up to the reality of a sneezing, unwashed Izzy telling him the toilet is backed up.
That gratuitous shower scene, however, is poignantly recreated at the end of the second episode. After the bomb explodes, and a traumatized Meredith is covered in blood and soot, George watches as her friends Izzy and Christina walk her into the hospital shower to try and clean her up. There is nothing erotic about it. They are gentle and comforting. It's almost like love.
That bizarre dichotomy between the sleazy and the genuine is what makes it a guilty pleasure.
Anyone who wants to watch the naughty shower scene can find it here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXYVn6NOZg)
The second shower scene is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amxigy5R6Tw) starting at about 2:56.
Kurosawa Fan
09-28-2008, 11:43 PM
Yeah, I'm totally mocking you for this one. Even my wife, who usually goes for this type of show, thought it was drivel and stopped watching after 3 episodes.
Guilty Pleasures: La Femme Nikita
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/nikita.jpg
The Bad: Slutty, again. Preposterous plot, which became harder and harder to maintain as the series went on. The acting could be really bad, especially for bit characters. Michael (above, on the right) had a really annoying way of speaking without moving his mouth, and only one facial expression. In fact, he's making it in that picture.
The Good? Peta Wilson was really great in the lead role, and Alberta Watson was delicious, layered and fascinating as the cold-blooded Madeleine. In fact, she was often the best part of the show, especially when Nikita got too whiny and Why-Me.
Plus, it was always fun to see what ridiculous avant-garde fashion Nikita would be wearing.
In looking for clips, I found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSt1eErsL6k) one, which amply shows:
*terrible acting by a bit character
*Nikita being pretty
*a presposterous plot twist, and
*Madeliene acting cool and creepy.
Yeah, I'm totally mocking you for this one. Even my wife, who usually goes for this type of show, thought it was drivel and stopped watching after 3 episodes.
*cowers in shame*
I figured I ought to get it out of the way, since I think it's probably the worst show on my GP list. Also, it came first alphabetically.
Guilty Pleasures: Lois and Clark
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/lois-cape.jpg
The Bad: Absolutely silly. I mean, REALLY silly. Superman is completely castrated in this show, a goody-two-shoes Mama's boy about as complex as kleenex.
The Good? Well... I like Superman. I'm drawn to the mythology of it. Cain and Hatcher were attractive people with good chemistry, and when I used to watch it with my little sister on t.v., I thought it was wonderfully romantic. It's not, but the nostalgia makes me drag it out every few years, just to laugh at myself.
Watch the credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhUJ0bpH5uw) to make fun of the special effects.
Guilty Pleasures: Smallville
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/SmallvilleCast.jpg
The Bad: Nonsensical teen drama. The show took BtVS's Monster-of-the-week formula and made it even less probable. Also, Welling is a terrible actor.
The Good? I LIKE SUPERMAN, OKAY? Even that didn't get me past the first few seasons, though, as it got worse and worse. Welling is really, really good-looking, which added a spoonful of sugar to the medicine.
The real hunk of the show, though, was Clark's daddy Jonathan. The fact that I found both of them attractive made my reaction to the show a little... complicated. I'm not one for fanfiction, but if I had been, that crap would have been certifiable.
Jonathan gets to be a hero, and Clark takes his shirt off. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDYsYIRKYI)
Guilty Pleasures: Torchwood
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/torchwood_main.jpg
The Bad: PLOT. HOLES. I really can't understand how half these scripts are conceived. Also, part of the nature of the show is that it plays sexuality fast and loose, but sometimes it just... tries too hard. As an audience, we don't like feeling pressured to be shocked.
The Good? Quite a bit, actually. I would say this is the best show on my GP list. The cast is attractive and talented. The characterizations are excellent, particularly Captain Jack. The show is consistently funny, and sometimes profoundly moving. (I cried like a little bitty baby during the season 2 finale.)
Really, with a show about bisexual alien hunters in Whales, you can't go too far wrong.
I took a long time picking a YouTube clip for this entry. They tend to be somewhat... narrowly focused. I finally decided to do this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfcP8FZ4rqE), which is just a promo for the first season.
Okay, enough with the guilty pleasures. Note my amazing strategy: by showing you the worst shows I watch, I'm hoping your expectations will be significantly lowered when I start getting into my Top 15, so that you'll be relieved to see that I watch shows that aren't... you know... crap.
Top 15 Shows: Absolutely Fabulous
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/Absolutely-Fabulous-cc03.jpg
There have been a number of shows with anti-heroes, but I'm not sure any of them were as completely unredeemable as Edina and Patsy. They were image-obsessed, amoral, and alchoholic. Edina was a terrible mother to her said, pragmatic daughter. (Edina: She's so cold, sweetie! I'll just bet she has her period in cubes.)
It was funny.
So many shows have done the wacky-back-up-characters that it's become a bit of a cliche, but I'm not sure any really did it as well as this show. All the ex-husbands and new wives, secretaries and grandmothers, down to Saffie's friend Sarah (who would grow up to be on Torchwood, oddly enough.) They also had some great celebrity cameos.
It looks like YouTube has full episodes, if any of you have never seen it. For now, though, here's a clip where Patsy (who has lived soley on alchohol and cocaine for thirty years) tries to eat something. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDMexCCNk0)
Top 15 Shows: Arrested Development
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/arrested_development_cast_01.j pg
Probably the greatest ensemble of characters in any show... ever. Go ahead. Argue who is the funniest. You'll never narrow it down to less than six or seven different people.
Myself, I would probably vote for the narrator.
Narrator: George Michael was getting ready for school when he came across a box of love letters he'd written, but never sent, to his cousin Maeby. One letter, titled "If you weren't my cousin," was particularly incriminating.
Really, though, if you haven't watched it by now, I don't think I'll be able to talk you into it. You're obviously a hard, bitter, cynical person with limited imagination. I doubt you have a rich inner life. You probably hurt animals.
If you've already watched it, then of course you love it, and you should give me rep.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3c0q3AiS4) are some pretty good clips, if you ignore the stupid cover of "Crimson and Clover" playing underneath it. Why do YouTube users do that?
Lucky
09-29-2008, 02:40 AM
I haven't seen much from your list yet, but I will say that the episode of Grey's Anatomy you mentioned got me interested in the show for half a year. If I'm not mistaken, that was the episode after the Superbowl and was the first episode I actually saw in its entirety. It became a show to pass the time with after that. I never actually looked forward to watching it, but on Sunday nights there was Grey's Anatomy to watch. I never bothered coming back for the next season and I don't miss it at all. My relationship to the show is very consistent with most of my real-life relationships, actually: short-lived, forgettable flings.
Secondly, the funniest character on Arrested Development is Lucille. There, I've narrowed it down to one. :P
Haha, I look forward to the rest.
Spinal
09-29-2008, 04:32 AM
Great thread. Arrested Development is the only one I'm really familiar with so far. Seen a little bit of Ab Fab.
I like Arrested Development an awful lot, but it does have its weaknesses. The writing is fantastic, but it falls short of an all-time great show for me because it's all so aggressively shallow. The sitcom deconstruction shtick works wonderfully up to a point, but it also can feel a wee bit precious at times. It often feels as if the characters aren't really given a chance to live and breathe, bounced about as they are by the show's voiceovers. Sometimes I feel like I'm being walked quickly through a scenario rather seeing true comedy being allowed to flourish. It's a gimmick that provides for some big laughs, but it also sets the show's limitations, as ultimately the whole thing comes across as disposable. Perhaps that shouldn't be a big problem for a sitcom ... I don't know. Just nitpicking here.
Milky Joe
09-29-2008, 04:46 AM
Really, though, if you haven't watched it by now, I don't think I'll be able to talk you into it. You're obviously a hard, bitter, cynical person with limited imagination. I doubt you have a rich inner life. You probably hurt animals.
Repped.
And I think Maebe is the funniest character. That's if I were forced to choose at gunpoint.
EDIT: This is of course excluding Tobias. Doesn't seem fair otherwise.
Lucky
09-29-2008, 04:50 AM
And I think Maebe is the funniest character. That's if I were forced to choose at gunpoint.
Wow, I really didn't expect anyone to say that. I've always thought she was the weakest character, although I did like how she tied everything together in the final episode.
Spinal
09-29-2008, 05:08 AM
There's long, long stretches where Tobias isn't funny at all. I'm sorry, but it's true.
Maebe is awesome.
Milky Joe
09-29-2008, 05:23 AM
There's long, long stretches where Tobias isn't funny at all. I'm sorry, but it's true.
No need to apologize, because it's so very not true! The only time I'd argue that he's unfunny is in the third season when he's dying, if only because it sort of symbolizes the death of the show, which is really just sad to me. But David Cross is never not funny (at least on this show). Just my opinion anyway. He is to this show what Kramer was to Seinfeld.
Ezee E
09-29-2008, 12:24 PM
Gob is consistently hilarious. Easily my favorite character on the show.
I haven't seen much from your list yet, but I will say that the episode of Grey's Anatomy you mentioned got me interested in the show for half a year. If I'm not mistaken, that was the episode after the Superbowl and was the first episode I actually saw in its entirety. It became a show to pass the time with after that. I never actually looked forward to watching it, but on Sunday nights there was Grey's Anatomy to watch. I never bothered coming back for the next season and I don't miss it at all. My relationship to the show is very consistent with most of my real-life relationships, actually: short-lived, forgettable flings.
This post has actually reduced a modicum of my shame. Thanks!
Thirdmango
09-29-2008, 11:20 PM
We're pretty similar from what I can tell on our needs for television shows, Dialogue, rewatchability, consistency, sucker for humor. Also on my side I'd throw in character development.
As for guilty pleasures as I have many, my thoughts on yours.
Grey's -- I watched the first two seasons of this and at some point just stopped watching, not out of disgust or any of those types of emotions but because I just forgot. The thing which bothered me the most of the show was the title character where other characters were more interesting. But it is agreed on how preposterous the show is, I remember the button on the bomb episode, I think I liked it too, also I think the last episode I watched was a cruise ship crashing into a dock and everyone having their own problems including Grey getting pushed into the water by a little girl? Silly business.
La Femme -- Oh how I remember and don't remember this show. My mother was in love with it and so I would watch it with her, I think I watched almost all the episodes in the middle of the series. I liked it at the time but oh dear how I know how silly of a show it is.
Lois -- Nope. Nada. Never had interest.
Smallville -- Also a guilty pleasure though with Lex no longer being in the show, I've lost me will to love this show.
Torchwood -- Keep getting told to watch it, have resisted thus far.
Top 15 Shows: Battlestar Galactica
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/battlestar_galactica_630px.jpg
One of the best things about this show might also be one of its failings: it takes itself very, very seriously.
On the one hand, that's great. This show tackles politcal intrigue and contemporary issues (abortion, the war in Iraq, terrorism, suicide bombings, etc.) with a level of sensitivity and sympathy that I've never seen from a television show.
On the other hand, it leads to some pretty bleak storylines that are tough to dig out of the mire. Looking for humor? Good luck with that.
There have also been a couple of consistency issues, although it's usually resolved within an issue or two.
The cast and characterizations are uniformly excellent. (I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tricia Helfer is amazingly good for a model-turned-actress.) Olmos and McDonnell... Lucy Lawless... you'd almost think they were slumming it if the show wasn't so fantastic. Every character is layered and fascinating; flawed and frustrating.
And, before you ask, I haven't seen the original.
Especially for those who haven't seen it, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLaTmro5MfE) is the first scene of the miniseries.
Spinal
09-29-2008, 11:46 PM
No need to apologize, because it's so very not true! The only time I'd argue that he's unfunny is in the third season when he's dying, if only because it sort of symbolizes the death of the show, which is really just sad to me. But David Cross is never not funny (at least on this show). Just my opinion anyway. He is to this show what Kramer was to Seinfeld.
Incorrect. The writers give up on trying to do new things with him and his character becomes a long string of predictable one-dimensional gay innuendo.
Top 15 Shows: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-ft17.jpg
Ah, I was once like you.
I thought, "I would never watch a show with such a ridiculous name."
The incredible love it got on various boards really surprised me, though, and I finally gave it a shot on DVD. Admittedly, the show takes awhile to find its legs... the first season was mostly silly with a few nice moments, and the second season was mostly nice with a few silly moments.
By the third season, though, I was good and hooked.
The show is scary and funny, touching and intense. It was self-aware enough to enjoy and mock its own conventions ("Dawn's in mortal danger. It must be Tuesday!")
Oddly enough, for a supernatural show, it had a very realistic viewpoint of young people growing older. The characters are almost unrecognizable between the first season and the last-- of course. The characters went from being 15 to 22, and the show wasn't afraid to let them grow up and change. This is an unusual move for a television show-- great characters often remain static because the writers and developers know that audiences love them, and so want them to remain the same as long as possible. But these characters even had realistic relationships, sometimes lasting several years at a time. They make mistakes. They suffer. They mend.
I could go on and on, since this is a show I really enjoy discussing, but I only want to make one more point: this is the only television show I have ever seen in my life that realistically and unflinchingly dealt with the death of a loved one and its and immediate aftermath, in season five's devestating episode "The Body." The camera didn't turn away from the shock and sickness of the initial discovery. The script didn't gently gloss over the next several months, until the grief is more palatable. Instead we have a blow-by-blow, almost unwatchable sequence of the ugly physicality of death. It's brave, and it actually takes me to a really bad place. I can only watch this episode occasionally.
On a lighter note, I found a funny scene for you to watch. In case you haven't seen the show, this is from an episode called "Hush," which takes place almost entirely in silence. Bad boogeymen have stolen the voices of everyone in town, and in this scene Giles tries to explain the danger to the gang with a sequence of overhead projector slides. You can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNL3PhvOnOA).
Top 15 Shows: Dexter
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/dexter.jpg
I think the best proof that this is a good show is that... for some reason... I like it.
I shouldn't like it.
After all, it's very violent. And not bang-bang bloodless violence, which I can handle. It's dirty, slow, and messy violence. It also has quite a bit of nudity, which embarasses me. It's not funny, although it is sometimes wry. All in all, it should add up to one of those shows that other people enjoy, not me.
Immediately after watching the first season, I sort of shakily joined my sister in another room. "How was it?" she asked me. "Good," I said, "but I would never watch it again."
I was surprised, therefore, to find myself watching the second season. And then watching the first season again. And then watching the second season again.
Why?
Is it the character of Dexter? He really is great. Even with all his moral ambiguities, he is a fascinating and sympathetic man. The truth is, though, that I like almost everyone on the show. Deb and Rita are especially good as the anti-Dexters, two gentle and sensitive women, one of whom is hard on the outside while being vulnerable deep down, and one of whom is soft on the outside, but with a core of steel.
It also must be mentioned that this show has my favorite opening sequence, ever. Who knew that getting ready in the morning could be so creepy and disturbing? You can see it here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utqoFsMYPKs)
EyesWideOpen
09-30-2008, 01:15 AM
I can't rag on your Guilty Pleasures because i haven't watched them other then a few episodes of Smallville and some Lois and Clark as a kid. On to your favorites I love Arrested Development and Battlestar Galactica so your aces with me.
Amnesiac
09-30-2008, 01:26 AM
Admittedly, the show takes awhile to find its legs... the first season was mostly silly with a few nice moments, and the second season was mostly nice with a few silly moments.
Very true. You really can't accurately judge the quality of the series from it's first season alone. And in saying that, I guess the first season can sort of be considered a 'necessary hurdle'.
However, that might not be giving it enough credit. There are definitely some good episodes in there, such as "Nightmares" and "Prophecy Girl" and "Angel" ... but certain story-lines, such as teacher-turned-prying-mantis, might leave first time viewers a little put off by the camp. By the time Season 2 rolls around, the show feels much more comfortable and assured in what kind of stories it wants to tell, the characters surrounding those stories, and the general structure and vibe of the show.
There's a consistent trend of quality and some great, addicting, compelling story-telling present within the second season onward that is sadly absent from the first.
The characters went from being 15 to 22, and the show wasn't afraid to let them grow up and change. This is an unusual move for a television show-- great characters often remain static because the writers and developers know that audiences love them, and so want them to remain the same as long as possible. But these characters even had realistic relationships, sometimes lasting several years at a time. They make mistakes. They suffer. They mend.
Yeah. Strong continuity and some gradual and nuanced character development, two of the most significant and intriguing facets to the show.
Good write-up.
D_Davis
09-30-2008, 02:04 AM
There's long, long stretches where Tobias isn't funny at all. I'm sorry, but it's true.
Maebe is awesome.
David Cross is the weakest part of the show.
Ezee E
09-30-2008, 02:38 AM
David Cross is the weakest part of the show.
Nah. He may have repetitive jokes, but some of his moments are the funniest in the entire series.
The Mike
09-30-2008, 03:02 AM
I'm also guilty on Grey's (although I cut myself off after the first season, thankfully) and Nikita.
Looking forward to more.
Milky Joe
09-30-2008, 05:00 AM
David Cross is the weakest part of the show.
This is the falsest thing I've read all year.
The weakest part of the show is Marta.
EyesWideOpen
09-30-2008, 12:28 PM
This is the falsest thing I've read all year.
The weakest part of the show is Marta.
Marta 1 is awesome, Marta 2 not so much.
Milky Joe
09-30-2008, 05:14 PM
Marta 1 is awesome, Marta 2 not so much.
Indeed. Anyone know what the story is there? Was Marta 1 too beautiful and thus too expensive or something?
Hey, I just read this thread over at icine.
:lol:
Hey, I just read this thread over at icine.
:lol:
I don't know what you mean. :|
Top 15 Shows: Doctor Who
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/dr_who.jpg
No, I haven't seen the old one. I simply don't have time to catch up on the last thirty years.
What I've seen is the "re-imagined" series that's been going for four or five seasons now. The show has a couple clever conventions (a cycling list of main characters, plus the ability of The Doctor to reinvent himself with a new body) makes for a show that could run just about forever. The current Doctor, David Tennant, is a babe.
I can't help but feel that if the premise for Doctor Who was made in the United States, it would be a drama. After all the Doctor is a tragic sort of character... the last of his race, alone in time, traveling without a home or a set purpose. He is fond of his companions, but they pass in and out of his life without leaving too much of an impact. If the show was set here, he would... brood.
The delightful thing about Doctor Who is that the Doctor is actually pretty cheery-- almost manic. He doesn't seem to mind the tragedies that much. He's too clever, and too full of joie de vivre, to mope. He doesn't feel called to a higher purpose. ("Are you a hero or a coward?" "A coward, every time!")
I love him. I would leave everything to be his companion, and fly around in a blue box to fight angry pepper pots. I would.
For a clip, I chose this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDy_DthYG6c), which actually doesn't feature the Doctor at all. It's the first scene to the episode "Blink," which scared the pants off of me. It gives you a great example of how creepy and atmospheric the show can be.
The Kids in the Hall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/plastickith.jpg
Easily the most consistently funny sketch comedy show... let's see... ever.
The core five were all very funny, and had great dynamics with each other. It was also positively Shakespearean how easily they stepped in and out of female roles. The tone was zany without being incomprehensible.
The reoccuring characters ranged from th hilarious (Gavin) to the terrifying (the Chicken Lady-- I can't even watch those.) The skits are also very quotable, especially some of the monologues.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvkom4JTQus) is a favorite skit, where a patient has unforseen consequences to an appendectomy.
I... have made an alphabetical error. Please mentally swap the last show with the next.
Top 15 Shows: Firefly
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/FireflyCast1b.jpg
Cross a frontier western with science fiction, make the characters randomly break out in Chinese, have our heroes come from the losing side of a war and engage in criminal activity, add mysterious men with blue gloves, put it on Fox, and what do you get? CANCELLED.
Oh, but we love our ragtag rebels. Firefly was a great ensemble piece with intriguing, charming characters. It was heavily steeped in Whedon humor, along with his trademark quirky dialogue. (You won't mistake the lines as coming from anywhere else. Also, if you watch enough episodes in a row, you start talking like that.)
The story of Fox's bungling of this show is old news, and I'll spare you. Enough to say that for the upswing from good to brilliant in the last few episodes makes you wonder where this little gem might have gone.
I've chosen a hilarious scene between Jayne and Mal, after Jayne takes a liking to Mal's accidental wife. You can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXccNHpB9k4).
Spinal
10-01-2008, 01:57 AM
The Kids in the Hall
Easily the most consistently funny sketch comedy show... let's see... ever.
I have to put Monty Python first, but after that ... yes, they rock.
I have to put Monty Python first, but after that ... yes, they rock.
Hmm. You may have a point... I always think of the films, not Flying Circus. I should give those a rewatch.
Sycophant
10-02-2008, 02:38 AM
Hooray for Kids in the Hall! It earns my top spot for sketch comedy as well. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a hard time watching the Chicken Lady sketches (though I can now watch them through my fingers while curled up in the fetal postition).
Oh, and Spinal's soooo right about Tobias.
Lucky
10-04-2008, 01:33 PM
I got my roommate hooked on Buffy which was unintentional. It's completely not his kind of show and he just happened to sit down as I was watching the season 3 premiere. I was planning on going to bed after that but he told me to put on another episode.
Now we're two weeks and two seasons later. I've come to realize I view the show differently as I age. I thought Season 3 was weaker in parts than I remembered, but Season 4 really gelled for me this time around. I hope 5 doesn't lose any value because it's always been my favorite.
I hope 5 doesn't lose any value because it's always been my favorite.
Mine too! The first time I watched I had issues with seasons six and seven, but after several rewatches I think I understand why they had to be the way they were.
number8
10-04-2008, 04:07 PM
I've chosen a hilarious scene between Jayne and Mal, after Jayne takes a liking to Mal's accidental wife. You can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXccNHpB9k4).
That scene is one of my favorites, but it's not quite as hilarious as when they all first discovered Mal's wife.
"You got a wife? All I got was a stupid stick."
"I didn't marry her!"
"I believe you did."
"... How drunk was I last night?"
"I dunno, Mal, I passed out."
Qrazy
10-04-2008, 06:05 PM
Wow you people are all fail, Tobias is amazing.
Amnesiac
10-04-2008, 07:29 PM
In regards to changing opinions on subsequent viewings, I recently re-watched Prophecy Girl from the first season of BtVS.
...I don't get how Buffy knew that the Master was headed to the school. Xander even asks her how she would know that and she just replies, "I know." I realize it's an excuse to add more drama and suavity to that scene where Buffy, Angel and Xander are marching down the street and the Buffy theme starts in...
But, really. How did she know The Master was going to be at the school? I guess it isn't that important and you could chock it up to some sort of mystical, post-resurrection spark of power and clairvoyance. She did say she felt 'stronger' after Xander resuscitated her.
I don't know. Still a fairly great episode, especially because of that fantastic scene where Buffy walks in on Angel and Giles discussing the prophecy.
Lucky
10-04-2008, 08:41 PM
I don't know. Still a fairly great episode, especially because of that fantastic scene where Buffy walks in on Angel and Giles discussing the prophecy.
That's the moment when the show stopped being a guilty pleasure for me and I realized it had the potential to be something special.
Amnesiac
10-04-2008, 10:02 PM
That's the moment when the show stopped being a guilty pleasure for me and I realized it had the potential to be something special.
Ditto. That scene signaled to me that this show was able to ground itself in actual human emotion. Which is a really important element to find amongst all the supernatural excess, quirky dialogue, witticisms, flippancy and occasional B-movie histrionics (which, don't get me wrong, are all great). That scene is emblematic of what gives this show its sense of gravitas, depth and sympathy.
Top 15 Shows: Lost
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/lost-logo.jpg
No surprises here, for anyone who has ever met me.
I'll get the big problem out of the way in the beginning: this show has consistency issues. I admit it. It's frustrating.
However, when it is on its game, it is the best show on television. The last season even dialed it up a notch. The writing and mythology of it are mesmerizing, and it invites a level of speculation and hyphothesis bordering on mania. It slipped onto the radar during the first season as a Lord-of-the-Flies type adventure, only to blindside us by being science fiction/fantasy all along.
I love it. I love the characters and the plots. I love the paranoia and the pathos. I love the villians, if they are that, and I love the heroes (who probably aren't.) I love the sly literary references and the philosophical winks.
My devotion reminds me of that old-fashioned word: fan.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD0N1nRNTJE) is one of my favorite moments from last season. Contains spoilers, if you care about that sort of thing.
Top 15 Shows: Northern Exposure
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/photo_09_hires.jpg
If you took Northern Exposure apart into bits and pieces, you might think that it had all been done before. There's the fish-out-of-water bit, with the jaded and neurotic Big City Doctor being stuck on in the back of beyond. There's the small-town-of-wild-eccentrics bit, where every bit character is quirky and loveable. There's probably even a precedent for the sincerely strange and semi-surrealistic plot devices: Ed has a spiritual guide who only he can see, characters meet other versions of themselves (and sometimes fictional characters like Medea) out in the woods, etc.
But put together into one whole, Northern Exposure manages to feel like something you've never seen before. The show never condescends to its odd little characters; they are gentle and human and deserving of respect. There's a thread of idealism running through all the madness that keeps the show sweet.
(There was a slight drop-off of quality towards the end of the show, but not enough to put it on my Dead in the Water list.)
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49CEeoSg4t8) is the scene where the town decides to have a funeral for an unknown drifter who died coming through town and was never identified. I strongly suspect that the plot is an homage to Gabriel Garcia Marquez's short story The Handsomest Drowned Man in the World (http://iws.ccccd.edu/jmiller/handsome.htm). I don't normally suspect that television shows are giving homages to obscure South American short stories, but Northern Exposure is sort of like that.
number8
10-08-2008, 05:31 AM
Hey mara, FOX just announced today that they're remaking Absolutely Fabulous.
Hey mara, FOX just announced today that they're remaking Absolutely Fabulous.
I saw that. I have mixed feelings.
By the way, I will finish this list. Probably tomorrow.
Top 15 Shows: The Office (BBC)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/office.jpg
I once owned the entire series on DVD, but I loaned it to my boss, and the jerk never gave it back. That's irony.
If I had to pinpoint one thematic difference between the BBC and the NBC versions of this show, it would be this: the NBC show believes that if you scratch the surface, most people are pretty dumb. The BBC show believes that if you scratch the surface, most people are bastards.
This cynical edge of malice really makes the show difficult to watch sometimes. Some of the pranks and comments make you squirm, because you see people being genuinely hurt and humiliated.
The show has an earnest underpinning, however, in Tim, the loveable sad sack who pines for the receptionist from afar. He's not cool and attractive like Jim, his US counterpart. He's pudgy and plain, and I want to marry him. I've never been as emotionally involved in a television relationship as I was with Tim and Dawn.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESp01zCOf7o) is a clip where David and Gareth discuss the diabled.
Top 15 Shows: The Office (NBC)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/the_office_nbc_image__3___medi um_.jpg
In some ways, I'm surprised that more shows aren't based on working. I mean, we spend 30-50% of our waking adult life at our jobs. Most people I know spend more time in the office than with their spouses or kids.
Plus, corporate America is ripe for satire. It's been done before, (Dilbert, Office Space, etc.) but I'm not sure I've ever found a parody closer to my actual experience than The Office. It perfectly captures the futility and insanity of drone work.
One thing that must be mentioned about the NBC version of the office is that because it has run longer, it had time to really flesh out the minor characters. People like Creed, Phyllis, Meredith, etc. are funny and intregal parts of the cast. Angela (who I love) has actually gone from a bit part to one of the main characters. And a writer in the Washington Post was examining gay characters on television and said that Oscar was his all-time favorite. I find this funny.
In order to cross-pollinate my list, I had to choose this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIIBHBA_1A) moment from last week's episode of The Office, where Jim is trying to trick Dwight into not working by talking about Battlestar Galactica.
Top 15 Shows: Pushing Daisies
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/pushing_daisies_3.jpg
Plenty of people don't like this show.
It seems to me that when people don't like this show, they take a complimentary adjective, like "colorful" or "sweet" or "quirky" and then put the word "too" in front of it. The show is too idealistic. Too stylish. Or, as the Washington Post put it, too clever by half.
This baffles me. After all the dredge that is on television, you're going to critique the show for being too good?
I guess the excesses of the show suit me. I love the colors of it, like the whole world was painted with Jolly Ranchers. I love the anachronistic touches, the erudite vocabulary, and the eccentric characters. I love that they sometimes break into song (in fact, I actually cried tears when Aunt Vivian sang "Morning Has Broken.") I love Chuck's clothes, except for that one episode last season when they put her in a floppy hat and purple glasses, and this last episode, which featured Ugly Pants.
But, most of all, I love how unabashedly romantic the show is. I find a show that treats love without irony or cynicism quite refreshing. So, when I picked a clip, I chose this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfk3LPrBXlM) one, where Olive is speaking to her secret admirer Alfredo, and he explains the show's views on love in a nutshell.
For good measure, though, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv0klnEAZmM) is the "Morning Has Broken" scene.
Top 15 Shows: Sports Night
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/sportsportraits.jpg
Do you want to talk about consistency? I believe this show didn't have a single bad episode. Just looking up pictures and YouTube clips made me want to watch the entire series again immediately.
A quick note: this show is not about sports. I don't like sports, I don't understand them, and I don't watch them. There's a lot of sports terminology in the show, but I just sort of ignore it, the same way I ignore medical jargon on a doctor show. The sports fanatics I know, however, love the show possibly even more than I do.
For me, the show is about the characters, and the relationships between them. I love the bromance between Dan and Casey, the tight friendship between Dana and Natalie, and the paternal relationship that Isaac has with Dan and Dana. The show can be gut-bustingly funny, but is often touching and gentle. The writing is terrific, and the cast is excellent.
I found a long YouTube clip, but it is absolutely worth it. It's a sequence of scenes from one episode that deals with the use of the confederate flag (a very touchy subject... you can read the YouTube comments if you don't believe me.) It leads up to one of my favorite monologues of all time, expertly played by Robert Guillaume as Isaac Jaffe. You can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm0e1y5l028&feature=related).
Kurosawa Fan
10-12-2008, 02:30 AM
LOVED Sports Night. Kudos for that pick.
monolith94
10-12-2008, 03:09 AM
Insightful commentary on the difference between the beeb and the 'merican versions, Mara. By any chance, have you seen any farscape?
The Mike
10-12-2008, 04:40 AM
WOOT! Sports Night is EASILY my favorite show ever, and I totally agree - not a bad episode in the bunch.
As far as I'm concerned, Isaac Jaffe is God.
Kurosawa Fan
10-12-2008, 04:46 PM
The only flaw the show ever had was the laugh track. Terrible. I was so glad they got rid of it.
I love the monologue from that clip, but I have a problem with the scenario in general. The student, in his press conference, talks about being the first in his family to go to college, and how his family wouldn't want him playing under that flag. I have to assume this isn't something new for the college considering its tradition and the fact that the head of the studio is an alma mater fighting to defend the college and the flag. Why choose that school if you already knew they flew the flag? It's like he wasn't paying attention until the starter got hurt and he played a few games. And even if he thought at that point he had enough clout to hold the university hostage, I still don't understand the decision to choose that school in the first place.
Still, it was a good episode once I look past that, and that monologue is fantastic.
The Mike
10-12-2008, 04:56 PM
I took it as A) it was the only school that recruited him; and B) his word wouldn't have been heard before, but now that he was a star, he could speak up and get noticed.
Kurosawa Fan
10-12-2008, 05:14 PM
I took it as A) it was the only school that recruited him; and B) his word wouldn't have been heard before, but now that he was a star, he could speak up and get noticed.
They made it out to be a pretty prestigious school, so I find it hard to imagine they're the only school that was recruiting him. Either way, it's a small quibble.
number8
10-12-2008, 06:30 PM
Sports Night FTW!
I'm guessing his next show is on this list :P. I think I already know what clip you're going to choose. Or should choose.
Sycophant
10-12-2008, 07:06 PM
I really need to go back and watch Sports Night. And try to catch up with Pushing Daisies. Barry Sonnenfeld has been doing the talk show rounds for it. Good Lord, is that man entertaining.
It's strange how few sitcoms today seem to really deal with office life. Many of my favorites did, including NewsRadio, which may be less lifelike than NBC's The Office, but I prefer it hands down.
The BBC The Office is superior to both. Its handling of the Tim and Dawn relationship was positively deft. And it managed its brand of cringe perfectly. Few images stick in my mind like the one of David in his bird costume out in the rain.
By any chance, have you seen any farscape?
No, but it's one of my best friend's favorite shows, so I should give it a shot.
And, embarassingly, I haven't seen West Wing, 8. I keep meaning to watch it, because every time I mention that I haven't, my sister gives me this sad, searching look, as if she's wondering how we're related.
Also, all the Sports Night love is giving me a happy.
:pritch:
number8
10-12-2008, 09:35 PM
My heart breaks.
My heart breaks.
Maybe I should get Netflix again.
After a nice, two-month break, I'm ready to finish.
For those who are lost, we are about to show my final favorite show, alphabetically, and then we have five shows that are Dead in the Water: i.e., they started off as great, non-guilty pleasures and then became so awful later on that the suckitude retroactively tainted what had come before.
As a side note, during the two-month hiatus, I did start watching The West Wing. And it's completely awesome. I'm only not including it because I hadn't seen it when I began the list.
Top 15 Shows: Wonderfalls
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/wonderfalls.jpg
Shows that are canceled too soon are like actors who die too young: James Dean will never grow old for us. He will never be in Mighty Ducks VII just to cash a paycheck. He will always be handsome, rebellious, and doomed.
Tragic as it may seem, there's a romantic glow attached to shows that never had a chance to go stale. Take Wonderfalls, which aired for exactly four episodes. The first season is available on DVD, but who is to say exactly how long the premise would actually have sustained itself?
What we have, however, is enchanting. An overly educated, overly cynical, and completely unambitious college grad annoys her family by working retail at a Niagara Falls gift shop and living in a trailer. She's content enough to make everyone miserable until a sequence of wax lions, stuffed bears, etc. start coming to life and giving her instructions on how to help other people. Our frustrated and unmotivated heroine, convinced that she is delusional, fights against the philanthropic, anthropomorphic menace.
The truth is that I find the world-weary heroine a bit of a chore, although her selfishness makes a nice foil for the all do-gooding she is forced to complete. The supporting characters however, are hilarious and well-written. I'm particularly fond of her sister and mother.
Plus, the opening theme song is really catchy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUL1YyA4Bk)
number8
12-11-2008, 05:39 PM
Did you watch West Wing in the past two months? :P
Did you watch West Wing in the past two months? :P
Well, I'm on the fifth season. (Which, so far, isn't as bad as I was led to expect.)
The first four seasons blew me out of the water, though. Please except my humble rep for the awesome recommendation.
number8
12-11-2008, 05:56 PM
Woo hoo.
Dead in the Water: 24
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/jack-bauer.jpg
Where, exactly, did 24 go wrong?
Was it the show, or was it the audience that changed?
Because, for the first few seasons, I was totally into it. Jack Bauer was the absolute man. Guns were ablazing, rules were abroken, important instructions were awhispered. At some point, though, I just became disgusted.
I think, in some ways, Jack Bauer was the perfect post-9/11, pre-Iraqi War American hero. When the show premiered (in November of 2001) we as a people were anxious, angry, and grieving. Bauer was the man who wouldn't take no for an answer, but would bend or break any rule or regulation to protect his country and his family. We cheered.
By 2005 or 2006, however, we were no longer a people more sinned against than sinning. I, for one, was no longer rooting for the guy who would (even pretend) to shoot a terrorist's child in the face in order to extract information.
I think we want our humanity back.
For nostalgia's sake, though, here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvntR5Up5l4) a great BAM-BAM-BAM moment from the fourth season.
Dead in the Water: Alias
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/maragirl/aliasleather1.jpg
Alias was so cool.
It was a story of double- triple- and quadraple-crosses in deep cover intelligence work. A beautiful woman wore wigs, attended formal parties, stole information, and then kicked the crap out of everyone in sight.
It was La Femme Nikita with better scripts, better acting, and a decent budget.
So, what happened? The first two seasons were awesome. The second season ended with the BEST GIRLFIGHT EVER, followed by one of the biggest pull-the-rug-out plot twists I've seen.
And then it all unraveled.
A few items of advice:
1. You can't switch genres in the middle of a show. If it's an action show, it needs to stay an action show. If it's going to be science fiction, you have to establish that early on. (Even Lost, which pretended to be a survivalist show for a couple of episodes, gave some early clues that All is Not What it Seems.)
2. Professional killers do, in fact, know how to take a pulse. You have to stop bringing people back from the dead.
3. If you're going to introduce a complicated mythology, map it out first. We can tell when you're making things up as you go along.
But, just for kicks, feel free to watch the BEST GIRLFIGHT EVER. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weCzyBcEQv0)
number8
12-11-2008, 06:23 PM
I talked about 24 extensively with a fellow fan just a few days ago, and I realized that they've changed the format of the show somewhat, and even the characterization of Jack Bauer, over the seasons.
In Season 1, he was a hero. He cheated on his wife, which hinted on him being a scumbag, but for the course of the season he expresses regret and he fights hell and highwater for... what? His wife and daughter. He was a noble, underdog hero looking for redemption, and so we were manipulated to look past his torture and murder and such. And, like you said, it was right after 9/11 and people were ready to accept his brand of justice.
But then, as you said, it gets way muddier in Season 2, with him accusing Arabs of being terrorists and it ended up being the blonde Muslim girl, Jack pretending to shoot a little kid in the face, etc. It's like, after his wife died, the producers found an excuse to make him an anti-hero, and he did. 24 got progressively darker and less realistic as it went on because of the distrust towards the Bush administration. It used to be optimistic about the government with David Palmer, but then in Season 4 we got to see a corrupt White House. And with that, they started to make Jack Bauer completely irredeemable. The made him a heroin addict, they made him chop off his future son-in-law (and partner's) hand, he tortures innocent suspects, etc. I mean, aside from the bad writing and rehashed plot, I think Season 6's biggest crime was making Jack so unlikeable. He used to be badass, awesome, all of those things. Season 6 he was borderline clueless, crazy and racist.
I think the key to making 24 compelling again is Jack Bauer. It's always been Jack Bauer. Forget amping up the action, forget making more unpredictable twists, forget bringing back Tony from the dead. You take Jack, who's done so many disgusting shit in his life, and you give him really tough choices--I mean, choices where he doesn't just go in and go, "Yep! Torture time!". Show that he cares about people, and people would buy that he's not just some torture-happy psycho. 24: Redemption recently did this very well by giving him Robert Carlyle and a surrogate son. Jack as a best friend and father figure searching for his soul, I like. Jack as a whiny hardass, not so much.
D_Davis
12-11-2008, 06:52 PM
They don't call it the 'Jack Bauer Power Hour' for nothing.
Wryan
12-11-2008, 07:00 PM
Has any Nicolas Sparks novel reached the level of worthlessness of, say, A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila?
There've been attempts.
Some excellent points, 8.
24: Redemption recently did this very well by giving him Robert Carlyle and a surrogate son. Jack as a best friend and father figure searching for his soul, I like. Jack as a whiny hardass, not so much.
I'd given up and not watched this. Is it really worth it?
number8
12-11-2008, 08:12 PM
I'd given up and not watched this. Is it really worth it?
It's not great, and the US scenes are too much of a set up for Season 7 to stand alone as a movie, but the Africa scenes are pretty good aside from the inevitable "Frenchies are cowards" bashing. Kiefer has a great dynamic with Carlyle, and like I said, it reigns Jack Bauer's humanity back in. It's actually almost like a reboot of sorts, because it sort of reintroduces Jack Bauer as this wandering loner figure with a dark past that you may or may not know.
Amnesiac
12-16-2008, 01:40 AM
Top 15 Shows: Wonderfalls
I remember that Tim Minear, who wrote a lot of the better Angel and Firefly episodes, was involved with that show. I never got a chance to see it.
Minear was also involved with this short-lived Fox series, The Inside (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0412148/):
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32/tvbytes/theinside.jpg
It wasn't a bad show. Pretty good cast, from what I recall. I also remember it being pretty intriguing. But, yeah, it never got to realize its potential as it had the plug pulled on it quicker than Firefly.
number8
12-16-2008, 03:41 AM
Same with Drive, which I also liked.
Kurosawa Fan
12-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Same with Drive, which I also liked.
Blech. That show was terrible. I actually felt relieved for Fillion when that was cancelled. Saved him from more embarrassment.
Amnesiac
12-16-2008, 05:37 PM
Saved him from more embarrassment.
http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object2/1105/104/l8993367613_1183.jpg
Kurosawa Fan
12-16-2008, 05:38 PM
Well that's just pure awesome.
Well that's just pure awesome.
2nded.
[ETM]
12-20-2008, 02:25 AM
My girlfriend practically made me watch Wonderfalls. I thought I'd hate it, I really did, but I ended up loving it to bits. It was a good thing that they got a chance to more or less give it a satisfying ending.
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