Rachel Getting Married

[Silencio]

http://movies.yahoo.com/premieres/9082299/standardformat/

Looks like Demme's been watching a little too much Baumbach recently. I'll see it.

[Boner M]

Looks like Demme's been watching a little too much Baumbach recently.
Don't tell Armond that.

Very formulaic trailer, but still looks promising. What an interesting dude, that Demme.

[NickGlass]

Very formulaic trailer, but still looks promising. What an interesting dude, that Demme.

Yeah, I was interested up to the minute mark and then...the trailer kept on playing until it hit 2:18. Yikes.

My friend actually saw this and had favorable things to say about it, but his opinions were a bit confused. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

[Pop Trash]

Looks like Demme's been watching a little too much Baumbach recently.
Yeah, Jesus...that does look like Margot at the Wedding 2. I also didn't notice any of Demme's trademarks there, kind of disconcerting. I'm sure Raiders will come up with tons of ways to defend it even if it sucks.

[Ezee E]

Booooooooo.

[dreamdead]

Not too exciting visually, and they showed waaaaaaaaaay too much, but this could be a solid rental before the year's done. So there's that.

But it still looks like they took Jolie's role in Girl, Interrupted and deciding to throw her into an even more stereotypical plot.

[Raiders]

I'm sure Raiders will come up with tons of ways to defend it even if it sucks.

I've already declared it a contemporary masterpiece. Get with the program.

[Pop Trash]

Anybody see this yet? Raiders? Anyone? Apparently it's doing great PTA box office which mean it will most likely open wider next weekend.

[Raiders]

Anybody see this yet? Raiders? Anyone? Apparently it's doing great PTA box office which mean it will most likely open wider next weekend.

It opened here this past weekend, but I won't be seeing it until this upcoming Saturday. I'm uber-psyched, though.

[DavidSeven]

I keep thinking that it looks like an American version of The Celebration.

[Doclop]

Pretty good. I referred to it as Margot at the Wedding 2008 out of excitement (or now as I like to call Margot, Rachel Getting Married 2007). Not as biting as Margot, but somehow much more heavy hitting and relatable. Hard to say which I prefer and no point in picking really. Anyway, not uber in the Anne Hatheway for Oscar camp, but I certainly wouldn't complain.

Go Sally Hawkins!

[Raiders]

Surely the most predictable reaction of the year, no?

Still, gorgeous filmmaking. I have so much to say on this one. I shall return.

[Silencio]

This seriously needs a wider release. Studios cry about piracy but then they don't do anything to counter it, like say, giving the people who actually want to see the film a chance to see it. I'm sure there are other reasons but I don't care, I want to see this film. Now.

[Pop Trash]

Surely the most predictable reaction of the year, no?

Still, gorgeous filmmaking. I have so much to say on this one. I shall return.

Your new #1 Raiders? Better than Wall-E even?

[Ezee E]

So, is the stare there?

[Watashi]

Your new #1 Raiders? Better than Wall-E even?
Better not be.

[Raiders]

Your new #1 Raiders? Better than Wall-E even?

No. Probably at #3 right now.


So, is the stare there?

Nope. Considering the camera work itself is rather immediate and intimate, the stare wouldn't have really been as effective.

[Amnesiac]

Yeah, probably the best movie I've seen this year.

Phenomenal.

[Raiders]

In an early scene, Anne Hathaway's Kym asks about the amount of commotion that will be at the house for her sister's wedding and is told that only one extra person will be staying at the house. Thus, both Kym and the audience are set up for a false sense of security and intimacy that the rest of the film proceeds to rip to shreds. Kym, a recovering drug addict just released from rehab, is cautiously looking forward to the event. And initially everything starts off well enough, but as the wedding gets closer, the past begins to overwhelm and threaten to topple the impending ceremony.

The screenplay by Jenny Lumet is perceptive in its handling of the inter-family communications and the shades of both sibling and parental relations prior to Kym's departure for rehab nine years earlier. A funny/sad sibling scuffle ending with Kym's cries of "that's so unfair" to her dad when Rachel wins the argument by changing the subject; a late scene with Kym and her mother (a stellar Debra Winger) violently discussing the events that led to Kym's institutionalization; a showdown between two men on who can load a dishwasher faster. There is unfortunately a tendency to veer into over-exposition, particularly in the film's use of the drug/alcohol anonymous meetings Kym must attend as a means of explaining the past that we have already gleaned from the earlier visual cues.

But, for every moment where the film becomes a little too easily and predictably scenarized(sic) by Lumet, in steps Demme with his overwhelming sense of the communal and celebratory nature of a wedding. If anything, Demme's handling of the material may to some seem too indulgent and too eager to simply sit and watch the massive amount of culture and ethnicity on display with the ceremony combining two obviously unique and disparate families.

But, Demme perfectly captures what a wedding truly is, and credit Lumet for her understanding of the inherent emotion that she can create simply by using this scenario. In particular is a series of seemingly improv toasts surrounding the rehearsal dinner. Kym's is, of course, rather uncomfortable. But the film digs deeper. It isn't so much embarrassing as aimless and off-topic and self-centered. And we realize that after nine years of rehab and meetings, Kym has become accustomed to it all being about her. She constantly rails against everyone for staring at her, expecting her to combust, and the film plays the selfishness of Kym and Rachel against one another and comes away with a bit of a truce.

If Demme's career has shown anything, it is his insistence on universality and his natural and graceful handling of unique pieces of humanity and Americana. It should come as no surprise that near the end, Demme locates Robyn Hitchcock sitting in the middle of a cultural grab bag singing and waxing about the spirit of America washing over him. It is, ultimately, a film of contrasts. Indeed, Demme seems to find the same dichotomy between past and present that haunts Hathaway's character as he does in the unique melding of sensibilities and cultures.

And I think that Demme rightfully recognizes the amount of heavy emotional wringing done through the film's dialogue, and instead of weighing it down, shoots the film like an impromptu wedding video (the film even on a couple occasions uses the viewpoint of the groom's brother who is filming the event). There is a sense that the filmmaker shows the healing power of celebration and music and art, and if in the end we finish on a happier note, we can look back and locate that the beating heart of the film was the rhythms of the music and we likely have that to thank as much as anything else.

A wonderful jazzy film, filled with deathly serious discussion and scenes, but ultimately in the hands of a remarkably attuned filmmaker who realizes that sometimes, all the talk in the world just leads us in circles and that at the end of the day, we need to come to terms with ourselves. And nothing like some communal love and wonderful music to allow a little perspective in life.

[Ezee E]

I'll read the review when I see the movie. Should be sometime this week.

[Amnesiac]

There is unfortunately a tendency to veer into over-exposition, particularly in the film's use of the drug/alcohol anonymous meetings Kym must attend as a means of explaining the past that we have already gleaned from the earlier visual cues.

I thought Hathaway handled those scenes really well. But, yeah, I can see how someone would think that they are a touch superfluous. But I suppose we needed the true details of her tragedy to come out one way or another. As much as the film triumphantly embraces a style of intimacy, spontaneity and naturalism... with very little feeling particularly contrived or overtly constructed... the particulars of the tragedy that is responsible for the immense rift in her family had to be explicitly stated at one point or another. And it was done in a really effective way, I'd say. The line about her not wanting to believe in a God who could forgive her came off very raw, vulnerable and tragic. I felt for her. Anyways, the visual cues were excellent, yes, even sufficient to a certain degree, but didn't necessarily pan out the specifics of what became of Ethan. And I think that's important.



But, Demme perfectly captures what a wedding truly is, and credit Lumet for her understanding of the inherent emotion that she can create simply by using this scenario. In particular is a series of seemingly improv toasts surrounding the rehearsal dinner. Kym's is, of course, rather uncomfortable. But the film digs deeper. It isn't so much embarrassing as aimless and off-topic and self-centered.

Yeah. I really felt for her there, too, because it seemed to be an indication of the immense amount of guilt and pain that she has to carry around with her at all times. She can't help but suck everyone into her gravitational pull. She is extremely desperate to exorcise her demons. She wants cleansing. But she doesn't know how. She probably doesn't even think it's possible most of the time. She's a mess. So, instead, we're treated to her awkward fumbles and weak attempts at affable wit and good-humor. Her precipitate declaration of amends. But underneath all that is this pressing need to vanquish the rift she is responsible for, to somehow make it right. It's an indication that Kym is, at all times, haunted and unnerved by what has happened. And in the same respect, she is perpetually desperate to somehow set it right. Her knee-jerk attempt to suffuse an apology into an inappropriate context is demonstrative of how much this guilt is weighing down on her. And how it's penetrated itself into her entire being, polluted her and left her unable to function in any appropriate way... that is, without moving towards offense, paranoia, or these sudden and desperate attempts at reconciliation.



A wonderful jazzy film, filled with deathly serious discussion and scenes, but ultimately in the hands of a remarkably attuned filmmaker who realizes that sometimes, all the talk in the world just leads us in circles and that at the end of the day, we need to come to terms with ourselves. And nothing like some communal love and wonderful music to allow a little perspective in life.

This seems a little cheery... but even so, and having only seen it once, I believe there is an element of this. There is warmth, there. Communal love, too. But maybe I was left latching onto the more pessimistic aspects of the film. The post-tragedy family unit. A mother who, it is implied, would rather alienate and disassociate herself from her fractured family than attempt to make it work again. A father who, at times, is literally attempting to will his family away from dysfunction. For instance, the dishwashing scene, when he giddily goes behind Kym and Rachel and puts his arm around the two - a simple gesture, speaking volumes about his desire to reconcile the irreconcilable. The same happens near the end when Rachel tries to will a familial bond into existence by pulling her mother and sister into an embrace. And, of course, it doesn't quite work. These weak, futile attempts at a union that can never be the same as it once was. And struggling to find meaning and functionality in the state it is in now.

[Raiders]

This seems awfully cheery... These weak, futile attempts at a union that can never be the same as it once was. And struggling to find meaning and functionality in the state it is in now.

Well, your last statement there is what I kind of meant by "perspective" and the idea that talking things to death may never work. I think the film finally shows some wounds just aren't going to heal (not now and maybe not ever) and reconciliation might be too much to ask. We may simply have to coexist and bask in the spirit of the event and when it is over, see where life takes us.

[Amnesiac]

Well, your last statement there is what I kind of meant by "perspective" and the idea that talking things to death may never work. I think the film finally shows some wounds just aren't going to heal right away and reconciliation might be too much to ask. We may simply have to coexist and bask in the spirit of the event and when it is over, see where life takes us.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Out of curiosity, did you get a lot of inappropriate laughter at your screening? Kym's scene with her mother near the last act of the film was kind of tarnished by some out-of-place laughter from some folks in the crowd. But, oh well, discomfort tends to make people chuckle every now and then.

[Raiders]

Out of curiosity, did you get a lot of inappropriate laughter at your screening? Kym's scene with her mother near the last act of the film was kind of tarnished by some out-of-place laughter from some folks in the crowd. But, oh well, discomfort tends to make people chuckle every now and then.

Actually, no. There were actually a lot of gasps at that scene and in general, I would say the audience was very in tune with the film.

[Watashi]

Alright, Raiders. You win.

[Watashi]

Oh, and this film is nothing like Margot at the Wedding. Nothing.

To even compare the two would be insulting to Demme's film.

[Raiders]

Alright, Raiders. You win.

:twisted:

I also still haven't seen Baumbach's film, so I cannot judge any comparisons. I'm actually not sure why I never saw his film.

[Sycophant]

This was fantastic. So was Margot at the Wedding, a film with only superficial similarities. Amazing work from the entire cast. Will catch up with discussion a bit later and if I have anything to add, I will.

[Sxottlan]

I don't know about this one. Liked it, but the more insufferable parts seem amplified in hindsight.


If anything, Demme's handling of the material may to some seem too indulgent and too eager to simply sit and watch the massive amount of culture and ethnicity on display with the ceremony combining two obviously unique and disparate families.

I can agree to this.

[Pop Trash]

Saw it yesterday. Liked it quite a bit. Not sure if it is quite as great as many are making it out to be. It is still a very small indie movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Hathaway was paid in food. Not that it affects the quality but I'm not sure if this "Oscar buzz" will amount to a best pic nomination. I don't know if the Academy is quite ready to nominate a hand-held dogme style DV movie for best pic quite yet.

It is well made and an example of how to make a hand-held DV movie correctly. I love how warm it is and what makes it a bit better than Margot at the Wedding (which, lets face it, it does share quite a bit of similarities) is that you get the feeling that deep down this family loves each other. Really loves each other. They might say things to each other that sting but ultimately the tone here is one of warmth. The emotions here come off as sincere and true and much praise has to go to the actors and Demme for this.

The main criticism I would have is with the plot. Or what plot there is since this isn't exactly a plot driven movie. It seems like Lumet just wrote a gender reversed Ordinary People for the "reveal" of why Hathaway's character is so screwed up. Then she filled that in with some Margot at the Wedding style bickering at the start of the film.

Also, and this has nothing to do with the film itself, some mentally incapacitated (Tourette's? Autistic? just crazy? who knows) guy behind me in the theater was completely distracting me with his running mumbled commentary, random grunts, and weird laughter that I found it hard to pay attention, especially at the start of the film. I'll have to watch it again just to catch everything and make a more definitive decision on how much I liked it. Here's to you mental guy! The only funny thing he did was at the end of the movie he got up and made an announcement to anyone that was listening that was something like this: "That was Debra Winger in the movie. She was a popular actress in the 80s. You might remember her from the movie An Officer and a Gentleman." To which I said "You are correct sir!"

I suppose I would give it a low 8/10 right now but I need to watch it again.

[Amnesiac]

They might say things to each other that sting but ultimately the tone here is one of warmth.

I'd agree with this. For all the bickering, selfishness, and petulance we see... there are several scenes that steer the characters back to a place of togetherness and understanding. The only odd one out here is the mother. Surely, she loves her family — but the warmth, decidedly, is not there.

But I actually appreciate that about the film. It's a realistic component to the ruptured family unit. Or the post-tragedy family unit. The suggestion is that she would rather alienate herself from her family and play the absentee, than struggle to regain the impossible: harmony. Luckily, that struggle, and the warmth behind it, is present in the father. So it's not an entirely cold situation. But, still, I like the fact that the mother sticks to her austere and removed deportment throughout the film. And the fact the film doesn't go out of its way to pull that character out of that deportment is something I appreciated. Otherwise, it would seem a bit too sugary and banal.

[Sycophant]

By the way, anyone else kind of weirded out by Bill Irwin's character's name? Paul Buchman? Like, as in the same name as Paul Reiser's character in Mad About You?

[Bosco B Thug]

It is well made and an example of how to make a hand-held DV movie correctly. Totally. I was put off when I realized the film was gonna have the shaky camera, but the film is always beautifully composed and clear about what it wants to do with a shot.

This was really excellent! It's grandest accomplishment is how authentic it feels and, as mentioned above, how smooth and graceful Demme's verite POV is.

The extended toasting scene really is great - so watchable and compelling in a compulsive way because its such an astute simulacrum of an actual event like that, then taking a turn to excruciating once Kym makes her toast and we're left to wallow in the tension she's left in the air and now currently feels... but then we go on to listen to more random toasts! Occasionally glimpse her moping in the background, this innovation in realism creates a very very poignant approximation of her temporally continuous agony about her status within her family.

Ann Hathaway is definitely Oscar-worthy, I'd say. Kym's characterization as merely a problem child wanting to reclaim affection (along with the characterization of her family's reception of her) in the first third of the film seemed full, intricate, and true-to-life enough that I felt the addition of a past family tragedy was actually kind of superfluous. Not that I think it would actually be better without it or that its wrong for having it, just that I had already felt enough substance in its portrayal of this sister/daughter with drug/pathological problems that I didn't exactly need her deep moral guilt to be given such an extreme backstory. It does bring something complex to the film, though, that being Kym's apparent sincere religiosity (incongruous with her rebellious nature).

I for one actually found myself on Kym's side for most of the film. Especially with that aggravating "so unfair" moment Raiders mentions. Argh. Also, I couldn't really empathize at all with Rachel's anger at Kym's toast.

[Amnesiac]

Not that I think it would actually be better without it or that its wrong for having it, just that I had already felt enough substance in its portrayal of this sister/daughter with drug/pathological problems that I didn't exactly need her deep moral guilt to be given such an extreme backstory.

Hm. That's interesting. Yeah, because people like Kym do exist - wanting, petulant, insecure, awkward, etc. You don't necessarily need this elaborate, dark family tragedy to truly ground this character in those type of dysfunctional qualities. And it could easily have been just as interesting a film if it chose to solely explore Kym's troubled psychology as something that is more... incidental, or pathological. Rather than fueled by this specific tragedy.

Then again, I seem to recall films like There Will Be Blood being (wrongfully) criticized at times for not divulging an elaborate back-story that would somehow justify the dysfunction of a character... perhaps Rachel Getting Married would fall under similar criticisms in that scenario.

Either way, good point.



Also, I couldn't really empathize at all with Rachel's anger at Kym's toast.

I saw where she was coming from, but yeah, she was being a little excessive. Kym's gravitational pull seems to have grated on Rachel's nerves over the years and I think she's viewing her wedding as something that is wholeheartedly hers. Something that is putting her, deservingly, into the spotlight. And, fittingly, something that is wholeheartedly normal and natural - a decided departure from the disorder, drama and tragedy concomitant with the family crisis. Furthermore, it's a chance for her to take center stage, rather than the martyrdom and sensationalism of Kym's affairs. Which I'm sure Rachel has had enough of (whether or not that's understandable, is another question) by this point.

Also, her indigence may have stemmed from her misinterpretation of Kym's honest, pained desire to alleviate herself of her psychological burden (so she picked a bad time to do it, so what?). She misinterpreted it as Rachel playing up the martyr and, embarrassingly spoiling the rather idyllic and friendly tone of the toasting. Still, I agree, Rachel was a little precipitate in her reaction. I just kind of get where she was coming from at the same time.

[Ezee E]

Fantastic movie.

Perhaps the best movie about the family unit? Sure, every family has their own dysfunction, but in the end, everyone will still support each other, still hug each other in that time of need, even if it seems like every other minute for the day is trying to one-up each other, and bring up an embarassing past.

That is, the core of the family. The mother left that core, and generally looks from the sidelines, and tries to not be seen.

Bill Irwin and Anne Hathaway are both amazing in this. Anne Hathaway's been talked about enough, overshadowing the loving father in which is love gets confused for paranoia or being strict.

There's lots of small details in that movie that make me think the movie will only get better on future viewings.

[Bosco B Thug]

Hm. That's interesting. Yeah, because people like Kym do exist - wanting, petulant, insecure, awkward, etc. You don't necessarily need this elaborate, dark family tragedy to truly ground this character in those type of dysfunctional qualities. And it could easily have been just as interesting a film if it chose to solely explore Kym's troubled psychology as something that is more... incidental, or pathological. Rather than fueled by this specific tragedy. Yeah, put that way, I definitely would have appreciated that approach. An alternate universe screenplay (that reaches the same level of emotional power this film reaches) without this plot device used to get Kym in an anguished state ripe for cathartic sympathy would have been very impressive, and would have given it just that little teensy bit of Margot-style hipster nihilism!

Going off that, I would have loved it if they had played up Kym's rivalry with Rachel's best friend. Their interaction was really funky and very Baumbach-ish in tone.


Then again, I seem to recall films like There Will Be Blood being (wrongfully) criticized at times for not divulging an elaborate back-story that would somehow justify the dysfunction of a character... perhaps Rachel Getting Married would fall under similar criticisms in that scenario. Aha! :P The lack of backstory for Plainview was one of the handful of things I actually liked about TWBB!


I saw where she was coming from, but yeah, she was being a little excessive. Kym's gravitational pull seems to have grated on Rachel's nerves over the years Yeah, thinking back on it, I can see it and understand her most from this angle.


Something that is putting her, deservingly, into the spotlight. And, fittingly, something that is wholeheartedly normal and natural - a decided departure from the disorder, drama and tragedy concomitant with the family crisis. Furthermore, it's a chance for her to take center stage, rather than the martyrdom and sensationalism of Kym's affairs. Which I'm sure Rachel has had enough of (whether or not that's understandable, is another question) by this point. We're of course not privee to know of the whole life of experiences or plain facts of nature that went into Kym's descent into delinquency, but I gravitate towards "not understandably." A personal feeling, I can see it the other way, I just think against prioritizing people who are currently feeling good about themselves.


She misinterpreted it as Rachel playing up the martyr and, embarrassingly spoiling the rather idyllic and friendly tone of the toasting. Still, I agree, Rachel was a little precipitate in her reaction. I just kind of get where she was coming from at the same time. Yeah, this sounds a for sure factor in it. The first few minutes of Kym's toast were definitely terrible and inexcusable. Though Demme's sympathies are definitely dispersed, for he does take pains to depict the outsider/unloved feelings Kym is feeling, all the way at the corner of the table.

[Raiders]

The past event that spawned Kym's institutionalization is a pretty key event and I don't think you can expect the film to hold the same level of power without it, or even something similar. It isn't Kym's failing as a sister/daughter or her self-abuse or even her absence that makes the film so powerful. These are all important, particularly the latter, but ultimately I think it's the spectre of that fateful event, and it leads to the film's most emotional moment when Irwin sees the plate.

[Amnesiac]

Aha! :P The lack of backstory for Plainview was one of the handful of things I actually liked about TWBB!

Ditto.



There's lots of small details in that movie that make me think the movie will only get better on future viewings.

Yeah, I could definitely see that turning out to be true. I'm anxious to give it another watch.


The past event that spawned Kym's institutionalization is a pretty key event and I don't think you can expect the film to hold the same level of power without it, or even something similar. It isn't Kym's failing as a sister/daughter or her self-abuse or even her absence that makes the film so powerful. These are all important, particularly the latter, but ultimately I think it's the spectre of that fateful event, and it leads to the film's most emotional moment when Irwin sees the plate.

True. That was definitely a striking moment. Jarring tonal shift.

And yeah, obviously a 'version' of the film that does not include the tragedy would be decidedly different and lack certain elements that lent the film its power and depth. But I wasn't saying Rachel Getting Married should have amended that whole storyline, but that it likely could have been just as interesting a film (although different) if it chose to only explore the dysfunction of the character by presenting it as being resultant of some sort of naturally occurring alienation. That is, the source of that disconnection could be pathological, more insular. Or, ala, Taxi Driver, it could tie into the notion of self-induced alienation.

But, you know, I'm hesitant to say I would most definitely a love a film that would take that different route. Just commenting on its potential. I loved the film I saw, without a doubt. Whereas with this other idea, I'm just intrigued by the concept and its possibilities. It would be a different film, though. And perhaps (who knows?) potentially less powerful than this one. But perhaps not less interesting. Maybe that's just because I tend to appreciate a certain level of ambiguity surrounding the reasons behind the dysfunction of certain characters (i.e, Jack LaMotta, Daniel Plainview, Travis Bickle, Harry Caul).

[Benny Profane]

Saw this last night, not getting all the Hathaway love. She was serviceable I guess. Rosemarie DeWitt carried the film for me. Some scenes went on too long and were a bit too melodramatic for me, but I liked it overall.

[chrisnu]

I'm not sure how this went under my radar, but it seems a lot of films have been going under my radar lately. I must see this. Tomorrow.

[Ezee E]

I'm not sure how this went under my radar, but it seems a lot of films have been going under my radar lately. I must see this. Tomorrow.
It's understandable. In the past two or three weeks, there's a good handful of films that were released without much press.

Rachel Getting Married, Synecdoche, Let the Right One In...

[Amnesiac]

Interesting tidbit regarding the movie. Paul Thomas Anderson was actually supposed to play Sidney.


Your movies have been progressive on the matter of race, often quite matter-of-factly. Here you have a mixed-race couple getting married and no one mentions it. Is this a deliberate gesture of post-racialism?

Jenny didn't write it like that. In fact, Paul Thomas Anderson was offered the part of Sidney, and the second choice was Tunde. So that dimension might easily not have been there had Paul remotely been interested in playing a part in a movie. He came to a table reading, and he was fantastic, just adorable. But Paul passed on the part -- he had something to do with a little movie he did called "There Will Be Blood" -- and I met with just the best actors that the casting directors could find, and Tunde had the qualities that turned me on the most.

I think I'd much rather have There Will Be Blood than see PTA in the film. But, regardless, I also think it would have been interesting to see him act.

Anyways, really good interview. You can find it here (http://blog.oregonlive.com/madaboutmovies/2008/10/_i_think_this_is.html).

[Ezee E]

Interesting tidbit regarding the movie. Paul Thomas Anderson was actually supposed to play Sidney.


Your movies have been progressive on the matter of race, often quite matter-of-factly. Here you have a mixed-race couple getting married and no one mentions it. Is this a deliberate gesture of post-racialism?

Jenny didn't write it like that. In fact, Paul Thomas Anderson was offered the part of Sidney, and the second choice was Tunde. So that dimension might easily not have been there had Paul remotely been interested in playing a part in a movie. He came to a table reading, and he was fantastic, just adorable. But Paul passed on the part -- he had something to do with a little movie he did called "There Will Be Blood" -- and I met with just the best actors that the casting directors could find, and Tunde had the qualities that turned me on the most.

I think I'd much rather have There Will Be Blood than see PTA in the film. But, regardless, I also think it would have been interesting to see him act.

Anyways, really good interview. You can find it here (http://blog.oregonlive.com/madaboutmovies/2008/10/_i_think_this_is.html).
and I'd also have much preferred Tunde as Sidney.

We won both ways.

[chrisnu]

Just saw it, and liked it a lot. Some great insights in the last couple of pages. Will be back with thoughts later.

One thing, though, that I found particularly tragic at the end, almost on a basic level of some kind. After Abby leaves with Andrew, both Kym and Rachel realize at the same time, "you're not my Mom any more. I don't know if I'm ever going to really have you in my life again." Understandable, yes, but very sad. And very well played.

[Duncan]

I thought it was really good. Better than I thought it would be for sure. Agree that some scenes went on too long. Also agree with Bosco about the back story not being necessary, or at least not spelled out so explicitly. That really should have been toned down, I think. Still, it's impressively textured, emotionally. Good acting all around. Also agree that the hand held camera was well done and never really drifted into arbitrary framing or blocking.

[Duncan]

Although the random Robyn Hitchcock cameo sort of took me out of the film. "Queen Elvis" started running through my head over and over.

[Izzy Black]

Very good film, I thought.

[Ezee E]

Very good film, I thought.
That's it Israfel?

[Izzy Black]

That's it Israfel?

Heh heh.

[dreamdead]

Like Benny, I found Rosemarie DeWitt as Rachel to be the best part here. She gives the film its center and without her anchoring the humanity Hathaway's portrayal would come off as artificial and overly petulant.

It's an interesting film because I can see the schematic elements in here (the plate, which, though it is led into humanely, still feels a bit too artificially woven), but the vibrancy of the direction and characters forecloses the schematic elements from becoming oppressive. Instead, it ends up eschewing the self-same three-act family drama that it fundamentally is, and emerges fully formed. Love the Dogme-stylized roaming camera here, and the fierceness of the mother/daughter slaps was impressive.

This film and Leigh's Secrets and Lies are (without putting much thought into it) my favorites on family relationships seen recently. Masterful filmmaking.

[Ezee E]

Like Benny, I found Rosemarie DeWitt as Rachel to be the best part here. She gives the film its center and without her anchoring the humanity Hathaway's portrayal would come off as artificial and overly petulant.

It's an interesting film because I can see the schematic elements in here (the plate, which, though it is led into humanely, still feels a bit too artificially woven), but the vibrancy of the direction and characters forecloses the schematic elements from becoming oppressive. Instead, it ends up eschewing the self-same three-act family drama that it fundamentally is, and emerges fully formed. Love the Dogme-stylized roaming camera here, and the fierceness of the mother/daughter slaps was impressive.

This film and Leigh's Secrets and Lies are (without putting much thought into it) my favorites on family relationships seen recently. Masterful filmmaking.
Nice. And with the comparison to Secrets & Lies, I'll have to bump that up higher on my queue.

[Raiders]

the plate, which, though it is led into humanely, still feels a bit too artificially woven

I realize it is pointless to nitpick this when you loved the film, but I could not disagree more here. The scene plays out, up to that point, in a very jubilant and seemingly improvisational manner, and thanks to the grace of Bill Irwin's masterful performance (there is no greater injustice this awards season than the complete overlooking of his work here) the revelation of the plate feels even more powerful. It is essentially symbolic of the entire film; the family celebrating through and around their masked tragedy that the reappearance of their daughter has brought forth. It is likely he could have seen that plate at another time and been less affected, or perhaps not so profoundly, but with the celebratory surroundings and his daughter's reemergence, it was too much for him. Great, great stuff.

[Ezee E]

I realize it is pointless to nitpick this when you loved the film, but I could not disagree more here. The scene plays out, up to that point, in a very jubilant and seemingly improvisational manner, and thanks to the grace of Bill Irwin's masterful performance (there is no greater injustice this awards season than the complete overlooking of his work here) the revelation of the plate feels even more powerful. It is essentially symbolic of the entire film; the family celebrating through and around their masked tragedy that the reappearance of their daughter has brought forth. It is likely he could have seen that plate at another time and been less affected, or perhaps not so profoundly, but with the celebratory surroundings and his daughter's reemergence, it was too much for him. Great, great stuff.
Agreed. As I watched the scene, it was a fun scene, if not a bit strange that it's even there at the time. Then the plate shows up, and I felt the reactions to be appropriate, especially since it's the first time they've seen their daughter since the accident (right? or at least in their household?), which Raiders mentioned.

The only spot I've seen Irwin get nominated is for Chicago's Awards, and that's it.

I look forward to seeing this again on DVD.

[Duncan]

I think dreamdead's right about the plate. There's a bunch of stuff like that in the film. I thought the whole Ethan angle was overplayed. I would have cut that one addict's meeting entirely.

[Ezee E]

I think dreamdead's right about the plate. There's a bunch of stuff like that in the film. I thought the whole Ethan angle was overplayed. I would have cut that one addict's meeting entirely.
If anything was overdone, I would say it's her meeting the other addict at the meeting, and what occurred afterwards.

Otherwise, the scene at the meeting was necessary.

[Watashi]

If anything the movie falters at, it's "Deer Hunter" syndrome. That wedding goes on and on and on. It's a good scene, but yeesh.

[Raiders]

If anything the movie falters at, it's "Deer Hunter" syndrome. That wedding goes on and on and on. It's a good scene, but yeesh.

Fail.

[Ezee E]

Fail.
Very much so.

That cut from the bar to the war scene is probably the most jarring transition that I could think of, and entirely appropriate. It works because of the long wedding, which even works on its own as well.

[Rowland]

I thought the length of the wedding sequence effectively emphasized its joyously all-inclusive celebration as a counterpoint to Hathaway's selfish self-aggrandizement. If anything, I'd argue that it sometimes came across as too self-consciously uber-bohemian for its own good, so that I was too busy admiring and sometimes questioning its flamboyance to be entirely swept away.

Personally, I would have cut out the mother character entirely. The tensions and inevitable eruption of repressed resentment between her and Hathaway struck me as overdone in accordance with everything else going on. Her presence as a mere shadow over the proceedings, with only the whispers of her past divorce from the father and abandoning of the family to go by, would have been a more interesting approach.

[Rowland]

That cut from the bar to the war scene is probably the most jarring transition that I could think of, and entirely appropriate. Could you elaborate please? I don't recall what you're referring to here.

[Benny Profane]

I also agree the wedding scene went on too long, and got a little ridiculous with all the different kinds of music and musicians, but Sidney singing "Unknown Legend" was pitch-perfect.

[Duncan]

Could you elaborate please? I don't recall what you're referring to here.

Pretty sure he's talking about The Deer Hunter, not Rachel Getting Married.

[Rowland]

Pretty sure he's talking about The Deer Hunter, not Rachel Getting Married.Oohh. Watashi's post was only referencing The Deer Hunter to criticize Rachel Getting Married, so I thought E was responding to the latter movie. Duh on my part.

[thefourthwall]

I for one actually found myself on Kym's side for most of the film. Especially with that aggravating "so unfair" moment Raiders mentions. Argh. Also, I couldn't really empathize at all with Rachel's anger at Kym's toast.

I definitely sided with Rachel's hurt and incredulity at Kym's rehearsal dinner toast, some of which seemed to be a 'look at me' reaction to being seated at the end of the table. (Not that I blame her for being angry at not being as fully included with the inner circle happenings of the wedding, but her reaction seemed wrong.) I think Rachel's feelings are also justified by Kym's affirmation of them. Rachel faults Kym not for trying, but for trying things that don't work in the same manner that she's been trying for years, which have heretofore been unsuccessful. The "so unfair" scene is Rachel showing Kym what it feels like to be constantly trumped.

When Kym leaves the family to return to rehab, she is acknowledging that she needs to change how she is approaching her recovery and that she needs to work on it more.


Just saw it, and liked it a lot. Some great insights in the last couple of pages. Will be back with thoughts later.

One thing, though, that I found particularly tragic at the end, almost on a basic level of some kind. After Abby leaves with Andrew, both Kym and Rachel realize at the same time, "you're not my Mom any more. I don't know if I'm ever going to really have you in my life again." Understandable, yes, but very sad. And very well played.

Agreed, I found the story thread with the mother to be utterly devestating.

I didn't find the backstory too explicit, though I did enjoy how they withheld many of the details until the latter half of the film, so that while the story didn't rest on them, they were still included and gave a fuller picture.

I found knowing not just that Kym killed someone, but her brother shifted the gravity of the situation as well as set up the amazing confrontation between her and her mother.

So many other wonderful things to say at this moment, but I must say one of my favorite moments was when after the abrupt fadeout of the dishwasher loading scene, Kym is left sitting alone in the kitchen, feeling doubly responsible for yet again being the killjoy, and Sidney, who she's known for about a day, comes up to her without saying anything and puts his hand on her shoulder. Rather than merely letting the immediate family 'deal' with her, or taking on the same tired attitude that Rachel has, he engages with her and tries to offer some comfort and acceptance. Beautiful.

[Idioteque Stalker]

If anything the movie falters at, it's "Deer Hunter" syndrome. That wedding goes on and on and on. It's a good scene, but yeesh.

The weddings are the best things about both movies.

[Robby P]

Russian Roulette > Wedding Scene

I mean, come on now.

[Ezee E]

Russian Roulette > Wedding Scene

I mean, come on now.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to go against the russian roulette as the best thing in Deer Hunter.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Those sequences are powerful, but they would mean little if not for the wedding. You may be right, though. :)

[Amnesiac]

Two wedding movies within months of each other for Anne Hathaway:

Bride Wars (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0901476/). Hmm.

[Ezee E]

I'm guessing they'll be opposites in quality though.

Yeesh.

[NickGlass]

Every scene in Rachel Getting Married is better than any of the other scenes when the dead brother is brought up. The fluidity of Demme's filmmaking and the performances are peerless, but the film comes to a screeching halt whenever the name is dropped. I understand that these moments were meant to evoke a pause in joy, and a bitter memory, but the experience felt more manufactured than natural.

[Boner M]

Every scene in Rachel Getting Married is better than any of the other scenes when the dead brother is brought up.
I pretty much resented how virtually every aspect of Kym's personal history was used like some dramatic trump card. Pretty much everything about Lumet's script rang false to me. The performances are strong (Raiders is right to single out Bill Irwin), but the characters are walking Sundance Lab cliches. That Armond White can lambast the black characters of Ballast for being white liberal fantasies, but not the ones here is... well, expected, but also somehow baffling even for his standards. Seriously, every black person is like a caricature of benevolence and generosity, with every white person a narcisstic mess.

Accordingly, there's something so calculated about the film's 'messiness' that is supposed to be truer to the fabric of human experience than that of a more streamlined storytelling approach, yet none of the peripheral characters are given any sort of humanity for this to work. They're just there, as if Demme wants to show off his cool friends. Compare the extended, rambling home movie-ish domestic sequences to those of Secret of the Grain, a far more organic depiction of communal perseverance through hardships, and Demme's film disappears. There are some affecting moments; the dishwashing scene in particular, and Hathaway's quiet moments by herself are empathetic respites. And the film's cast of unknowns lends a nice incidental texture to the whole thing. And some of the musical guests, including Robyn Hitchcock, piqued my enthusiasm up a bit. But even then, the wedding celebration scenes just made me suspect that Demme had a fundamental disinterest in his material and the film was really just an attempt for him to experiment with his documentary leanings within a fictional framework, without any real thematic purpose.

2008's most heartbreaking disappointment for me. Waaaah.

[Boner M]

So I'm the only one who didn't like this? Seems like way more of a love/hate movie than it's reception here suggests.

[Raiders]

http://teddziuba.com/2008/02/09/what-is-fail.jpg/what-is-fail.jpg

[Boner M]

I dunno about a 'fail', but I agree that this is definitely not Demme's best effort.

[Raiders]

That Armond White can lambast the black characters of Ballast for being white liberal fantasies, but not the ones here is... well, expected, but also somehow baffling even for his standards. Seriously, every black person is like a caricature of benevolence and generosity, with every white person a narcisstic mess.

I think race is irrelevant and likely White recognized this. The point of the other family is to contrast the neuroses of Kym's family and display the kind of solid, familial happiness so obviously missing from Kym and her family despite their attempts to show the world otherwise. The point is not, "hey look, black people are sweet, kind and normal, too!" Demme has already acknowledged that Tunde Adebimpe was the second choice for the role after the white Paul Thomas Anderson. You can take a creator's word for what it is worth, but I never once felt that their ethnicity was being used for anything other than a wonderful impetus for the jazzy, cross-cultural wedding celebration.


Accordingly, there's something so calculated about the film's 'messiness' that is supposed to be truer to the fabric of human experience than that of a more streamlined storytelling approach, yet none of the peripheral characters are given any sort of humanity for this to work.

There are tons of guests at weddings that nobody necessarily knows very well. That's kind of the point of weddings. They bring everyone, close and distant, together. I would also say the film's approach gives the air of humanity to each and every character regardless of whether Lumet's screenplay episodically focuses on each individual, which would be pointless and annoying.


But even then, the wedding celebration scenes just made me suspect that Demme had a fundamental disinterest in his material and the film was really just an attempt for him to experiment with his documentary leanings within a fictional framework, without any real thematic purpose.

Without thematic purpose? Bwah? I don't even know how to respond. I'm just going to leave this limp (pun intended) argument alone.

[Boner M]

Without thematic purpose? Bwah? I don't even know how to respond. I'm just going to leave this limp (pun intended) argument alone.
I meant Demme's music-documentarian leanings.

Anyway, I read your review after posting my comments, and though I can retroactively find some value in some of the elements I've criticised, the experience of watching the film and subsequently trying to shape it in my head into a rewarding experience spoiled an otherwise pleasant afternoon. I poop on you and your film, Demme.

[Raiders]

This is just payback for me thinking Ballast was a lot of bollocks, isn't it?

[Boner M]

This is just payback for me thinking Ballast was a lot of bollocks, isn't it?
Nah, I'm a little ambivalent on certain elements of Ballast that you touched upon, though I ultimately found it compassionate in spite of what I feel are dubious motivations regarding the film's mere existence. I thought you were a little more mixed on the film, though.

Also my point about the peripheral characters in RGM was admittedly scatterbrained (it's late here). I was really just referring solely to Sidney's one-dimensionality, and how he fits into the 'caricature of benevolence' category despite Demme trying to endow him with humanity.

[Melville]

So I'm the only one who didn't like this? Seems like way more of a love/hate movie than it's reception here suggests.
I didn't outright dislike it, but I didn't much care for it. On a technical level it was quite good; it did a great job of making the audience feel like an attendee at the wedding. Assuming that's what it was going for, it succeeded brilliantly. But it's all so externalized; it made me feel like I just happened to be at a wedding with a bunch of people with whom I have no connection, awkwardly witnessing their very personal interactions but not feeling involved with them. Since I suffer extreme social anxiety in such situations, the whole movie was very unpleasant for me. That's obviously a purely subjective response, but I felt like the movie didn't offer me much other than that feeling of "being there". Other films with similar techniques go beyond that feeling by focusing on detailed character studies, but most of the character development in Rachel Getting Married (especially the dinner plate scene) felt schematic and too deliberate. Where the Dardennes' hyper-objectivity probes its characters' internal space by following them so minutely, with the unrelenting force of an inquisition, the camera here felt distant from the characters, more intent on capturing the larger "scene". That's not necessarily a problem, and Raiders made a good argument for why it would work for people who appreciate weddings as celebrations of social bonds, but it's not an approach that worked for me.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This is playing in my area at that art theater for one day, the 15th. I'm stoked. I have that day off.

[Boner M]

This film is sitting quite well with me, admittedly. I've been in a shitty mood all weekend to be honest, maybe that's why I've underrated it at first.

[lovejuice]

really like it and will take more time reading stuffs posted here.

not to be armond-whitish or anything, but can't help compare the ending to the class. a few similarities as both being non-closure, but i much prefer the way rachel handle the ending than the class.

[lovejuice]

Every scene in Rachel Getting Married is better than any of the other scenes when the dead brother is brought up...but the experience felt more manufactured than natural.


I pretty much resented how virtually every aspect of Kym's personal history was used like some dramatic trump card. Pretty much everything about Lumet's script rang false to me.

not to pick on you two or anything, but how is the brother aspect in RGM any worse than the mali student in the class? imo, both hurts their respective films, but the effect is more destructive in the class. RGM at least structuralizes and presents itself as a melodrama, so "a tragic back story" is to be expected. The class's documentary sentiment is not made to contain such climax/conflict. not to mention that it's introduced very late in the story, and seems to be almost an afterthought.

[Izzy Black]

I did not have any problems with the dead brother aspect of the story.

[Sycophant]

I did not have any problems with the dead brother aspect of the story.

I wonder if you have any idea how much gravity is brought to your posts just by the way the dude in your avatar is freaking owning that chair he's sitting in.

And I agree.

[Boner M]

not to pick on you two or anything, but how is the brother aspect in RGM any worse than the mali student in the class? imo, both hurts their respective films, but the effect is more destructive in the class. RGM at least structuralizes and presents itself as a melodrama, so "a tragic back story" is to be expected. The class's documentary sentiment is not made to contain such climax/conflict. not to mention that it's introduced very late in the story, and seems to be almost an afterthought.
I didn't find the Mali student's subplot very melodramatic in The Class. Maybe the foreknowledge that the film was based on the teacher's actual experiences affected this (including that part, presumably). Also, RGM uses a documentary style to an equal degree as Cantet's film.

[Izzy Black]

I wonder if you have any idea how much gravity is brought to your posts just by the way the dude in your avatar is freaking owning that chair he's sitting in.

Tolstoy tends to do that.

[Sycophant]

I feel really bad for not knowing that was Tolstoy.

[Izzy Black]

Heh heh. It's actually somewhat of an unconventional portrait of him.

[Melville]

I used to think that Israfel's av lent his posts an almost humorously excessive gravity. But now that I know it's a portrait of Tolstoy, it will automatically make me think of the ranting criticism of Tolstoy in Hamsun's Mysteries. (Avalaible here (http://books.google.ca/books?id=MRoMUV2kLZEC&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=mysteries+tolstoy+hamsun&source=bl&ots=P_m7u7IfvB&sig=r5e_Y8NVq76DUHt6d7t90E14it E&hl=en&ei=2eSQSf69KaS8MZTEpPgL&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA155,M1).) Also, Tolstoy's bizarre musings, in War and Peace, on the calculus of history.

[Izzy Black]

Tolstoy and bizarre are hand in glove. Especially later years. Still brilliant, no less. In my book, at least.

[Melville]

Tolstoy and bizarre are hand in glove. Especially later years. Still brilliant, no less. In my book, at least.
To clarify, I thought the bizarre musings were by far the best part of War and Peace. But when I saw your av as just some anonymous, solemnly grave old man, it better suited the calm even-handedness of your posts. Now your posts will always seem at odds with Tolstoy's bizarreness. You should ramp up the bizarreness and ramp down the well-reasonedness to set things aright.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah I thought this too. Especially combined with the very D&D Mage-like title "Israfel the Black".

[Izzy Black]

To clarify, I thought the bizarre musings were by far the best part of War and Peace. But when I saw your av as just some anonymous, solemnly grave old man, it better suited the calm even-handedness of your posts. Now your posts will always seem at odds with Tolstoy's bizarreness. You should ramp up the bizarreness and ramp down the well-reasonedness to set things aright.

Oh OK. I appreciate the comments. I think I probably tend to be a bit more bizarre in my prolific RT outings.


Yeah I thought this too. Especially combined with the very D&D Mage-like title "Israfel the Black".

Yes, but I mean, given my user name, perhaps I am a little bizarre.

[DavidSeven]

One of my favorites from 2008. This is the way to do naturalistic handheld. Every shot is always completely aware of what it's trying to convey. Brilliant stuff. Loved the acting (though Hathaway isn't distinctively better than anyone else), and the melodrama worked for me. I think the narrative needed that something extra to distinguish it from those "middle/upper-class family with marginal problems" films. The disputes feel more legitimate for it, and I'm not too interested in pedestrian sibling rivalry issues or the plight of repressed white folks. Could it have been handled with more tact? Sure; the dish scene went too far for me too, but I also admired the lack of restraint. To make a film that really goes for it like this without giving in to an ounce of cheesiness is a remarkable accomplishment and a testament to how skillfully Demme handles the material.

[lovejuice]

One of my favorites from 2008. This is the way to do naturalistic handheld. Every shot is always completely aware of what it's trying to convey. Brilliant stuff. Loved the acting (though Hathaway isn't distinctively better than anyone else), and the melodrama worked for me. I think the narrative needed that something extra to distinguish it from those "middle/upper-class family with marginal problems" films. The disputes feel more legitimate for it, and I'm not too interested in pedestrian sibling rivalry issues or the plight of repressed white folks. Could it have been handled with more tact? Sure; the dish scene went too far for me too, but I also admired the lack of restraint. To make a film that really goes for it like this without giving in to an ounce of cheesiness is a remarkable accomplishment and a testament to how skillfully Demme handles the material.


Did I ever tell how much I love you, David?

this

[Watashi]

He's mine first, bitch.

[Mara]

Okay, I finally saw this film and read through the thread. A couple points that few people brought up:

I thought the music was great, and I love the way it was woven into the entire fabric of the story. It felt very natural and organic, but I love that they sort of mocked it in the scene were Anna Devere Smith has to go tell them to shut up.

Also, regarding Kym's car accident: I thought about this quite a bit. At first it seemed like deliberate self-harm, or a way to pity herself even more. But, as I watched the rest of the film play out, I became convinced that Kym wrecked the car to excuse her injuries-- deliberately hurting herself so that she doesn't have to tell anyone that her mother hurt her. If that is, in fact, the case, it strikes me as one of the most emotionally true moments in the film.

The sisters' dynamic was very, very real to me. Let's just say I called my sisters yesterday and quietly asked them to watch the film.

[Spinal]

This was indeed excellent. Reminded me of a couple of my favorite films. The Celebration, for reasons that are probably obvious. Also, The Sweet Hereafter in the way that Kym finds herself stuck in a bizarre sort of limbo where she cannot return to normalcy, no matter how hard she tries. Demme and Hathaway do a great job of capturing that raw, irrevocable pain.

Favorite wedding detail is the damn musicians that can't put their instruments down for a second.

[Robby P]

Very good movie, but I do agree with the criticisms that the key dramatic revelation might have been just a touch overplayed. I think I enjoyed the free-lance directing and wonderful acting more than the screenplay, which occasionally fell prone to cliches and stereotypes.

[Mara]

The sisters' dynamic was very, very real to me. Let's just say I called my sisters yesterday and quietly asked them to watch the film.

One of the sisters just watched this and we had a long conversation about it. She agreed that the writer and actresses who played Rachel and Kym really understood the sisterly relationship in a very complex way that most fictional representations do not.

I felt like the script never took any easy ways out in the Rachel/Kym dynamic. For instance, if they hated each other, it would have been a much easier script to write and film to watch. Rivalry and competition are easy. Instead, you see genuine affection and love between them, even though they drive each other crazy.

My sister specifically pointed to the scene where Kym shows up late for wedding preparations bloodied and bruised after the accident. The easy scene to play there would be Rachel screaming and angry because she's been wracked with worry for hours. Instead we get the impossibly gentle scene of Rachel putting her own preparations on hold to bathe and comfort her sister. It may not be healthy (it is, in fact, enabling Kym's immaturity and constant need to be prioritized) but it is realistic and loving.

[Grouchy]

I just watched this yesterday. Incredible. Very affecting movie.