Oooo, let's discuss... Billy Wilder!

[Sven]

You know... if you wanna.

Right now I'm in the process of procuring the last handful of his films I need to see before having seen them all. I was thinking about doing a review thread, a la dreamdead's Verhoeven thread, and my (very) dormant Herzog thread. However, being the busy-body that I am at the moment, working on as many projects as I am (I'd need to take off my shoes to make a tally), I think that a very general thread like this, where all are invited to give brief or extended thoughts, is the safest idea. This may even turn into a series!

I choose Billy Wilder because last semester, I took a class all about him, and my appreciation was rejuvenated. So easy was it for me to get into his films as a budding cinephile that he was one of the first that I came to accept as a given, giving his work less consideration. This class I took (re)opened my eyes to the many-layered texts and visions of his work. Since then, I've watched or revisited nearly all of his films, except A Foreign Affair and The Emperor Waltz, both will probably be seen within the week. (And Death Mills, which I understand is entirely, if not largely unavailable.)

I also choose Billy Wilder because I know he is much loved. Ms. Rouge is a huge fan, that is no secret given her appreciation of the Lubitsch. KF just gave The Apartment an overdue second chance, which worked for him this time. Spinal is a die-hard Sunset Blvd. man, nothing wrong with that. Basically, many people have seen many of his films. I hope that means people will respond.

I also choose Billy Wilder because right now, I'm sitting outside of a projection booth that's running a beautiful print of Sabrina (William Holden marathon, biznatches! The Wild Bunch print was unreal!). I was reminded that I've been wanting to create this thread for a while, and as I am currently not pressed to do anything productive, voila!

So yeah, if anyone has any issues about Wilder, wants to talk about any of his films, if even in pithy fractured sentence form, please do so. I'll pop in with a blurb or two about his films every now and then and to respond to all those who look like they need a good respondin'.

[MacGuffin]

Only seen Sunset Boulevard but loved it. Don't know whether I should see Ace in the Hole next, but we may have talked about this already. There's too much to see. I just lose track.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Everyone should check out Volker Schlondorff's Wilder interview/documentary to see what a cynical son-of-a-bitch he really is!

I love his 'darker' films such as Sunset Boulevard and Ace in the Hole. Both films would be in my top 100 if I were to compile such a thing.

Iosos, I have 'Death Mills', it's available on a DVD of the German film 'Jud Suss' as an extra.

EDIT: Here is the DVD I'm talking about: http://www.amazon.com/Jud-Suss-Holocaust-Ferdinand-Marian/dp/B000WGLADS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1216155577&sr=1-1

[Raiders]

I think what is so great about Wilder is that he was able to revel in dialog and have characters who spoke in unique cadence without ever coming across as overly precious. He always maintained a certain integrity and cunning quality to his dialog no matter how verbose.

[Sven]

I think what is so great about Wilder is that he was able to revel in dialog and have characters who spoke in unique cadence without ever coming across as overly precious. He always maintained a certain integrity and cunning quality to his dialog no matter how verbose.

A very good observation, though pretty hard to clearly draw in the sand. What exactly is precious dialogue and how exactly does he skirt it?

My favorite element of his dialogue is how funny it could be on the surface, but how frequently the surface is masking darker elements. Even in his comedies like Some Like It Hot, where death is more than an abstract fear, and Seven Year Itch, where Ewell's entire psychology is at stake. It's not just a farcical situation, but a plea for his own life and sanity.

[Sven]

I love his 'darker' films such as Sunset Boulevard and Ace in the Hole. Both films would be in my top 100 if I were to compile such a thing.

As I say above, I like that he's able to be "dark" even in his "lighter" films. At this point, I have a hard time distinguishing between the two, really. To me, Kiss Me, Stupid is just as unsettling as Ace in the Hole.


Iosos, I have 'Death Mills', it's available on a DVD of the German film 'Jud Suss' as an extra.

EDIT: Here is the DVD I'm talking about: http://www.amazon.com/Jud-Suss-Holocaust-Ferdinand-Marian/dp/B000WGLADS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1216155577&sr=1-1

COOL! Thanks, I had no idea.

[Raiders]

A very good observation, though pretty hard to clearly draw in the sand. What exactly is precious dialogue and how exactly does he skirt it?

Diablo Cody. :twisted:


My favorite element of his dialogue is how funny it could be on the surface, but how frequently the surface is masking darker elements. Even in his comedies like Some Like It Hot, where death is more than an abstract fear, and Seven Year Itch, where Ewell's entire psychology is at stake. It's not just a farcical situation, but a plea for his own life and sanity.

This is kind of what I meant. There almost is always a dual-substance to his words.

[Sven]

Diablo Cody. :twisted:

I'm dreading the inevitable day that I actually see that movie.

[Morris Schæffer]

Stalag 17 was very engaging, but then World War II is my favorite war.:)

It's the only Wilder I've seen.

[Ezee E]

Stalag 17 was very engaging, but then World War II is my favorite war.:)

It's the only Wilder I've seen.
I wonder what my favorite war is. Middle Ages feature more bloodletting and barbarism, but they aren't as mass killing as the latter wars.

[soitgoes...]

I wonder what my favorite war is. Middle Ages feature more bloodletting and barbarism, but they aren't as mass killing as the latter wars.Not to sidetrack the thread, but the beauty of WWII is there were so many angles. Lots of countries, fronts, etc.

[Sven]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but the beauty of WWII is there were so many angles. Lots of countries, fronts, etc.

And the idea of a clear-cut villain. Nazis, bad. Everyone else, good. Of course, Wilder undercuts this in Stalag 17 by making everyone a doofus, a placid villain, or a heroic asshole. Dude had contempt for everybody.

[Thirdy]

Finally saw Double Indemnity some days ago. I wish they still made films of that sort nowadays. Pure brilliance.

[Winston*]

Sunset Blvd and The Apartment are fantastic. I thought Double Indemnity and Some Like it Hot were good, but I dunno, maybe I was expecting too much. Would like to see more.

[Qrazy]

And the idea of a clear-cut villain. Nazis, bad. Everyone else, good. Of course, Wilder undercuts this in Stalag 17 by making everyone a doofus, a placid villain, or a heroic asshole. Dude had contempt for everybody.

Yeah the majority of World War II films don't give much play to the other Axis powerhouses. The Japanese get some screentime but less than the Germans and the Italians less than both... not to mention the other minor players.

[Ezee E]

Yeah the majority of World War II films don't give much play to the other Axis powerhouses. The Japanese get some screentime but less than the Germans and the Italians less than both... not to mention the other minor players.
The Russians never get the spotlight.

The Civil War fascinates me the most. I should get to that Ken Burns series.

[megladon8]

I have The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes on my shelf, unwatched (by me....my dad has watched it).

I actually didn't know it was a Billy Wilder movie until like a year ago.

[Qrazy]

The Russians never get the spotlight.


Which is all the more odd given that they suffered the highest casualties of any country during the war.

[soitgoes...]

Which is all the more odd given that they suffered the highest casualties of any country during the war.
The Cold War probably has something to do with this.

[soitgoes...]

Just to get this back on track a bit, it's been awhile since I've seen a Wilder movie. The last was Ace in the Hole a year or so ago. I went on a kick where I saw most of his "biggies" at rather high clip. I need to delve into his 2nd and 3rd tier films some more. Thoughts on what next to view? I've seen:

Double Indemnity (1944)
The Lost Weekend (1945)
Sunset Blvd. (1950)
Ace in the Hole (1951)
Stalag 17 (1953)
The Spirit of St. Louis (1957)
Witness for the Prosecution (1957)
Some Like It Hot (1959)
The Apartment (1960)
The Fortune Cookie (1966)

[Qrazy]

Just to get this back on track a bit, it's been awhile since I've seen a Wilder movie.

Same... I've seen...

# The Fortune Cookie (1966)
# One, Two, Three (1961)
# The Apartment (1960)
# Some Like It Hot (1959)
# Witness for the Prosecution (1957)
# The Spirit of St. Louis (1957)
# The Seven Year Itch (1955)
# Sabrina (1954)
# Stalag 17 (1953)
# Ace in the Hole (1951)
# Sunset Blvd. (1950)
# The Lost Weekend (1945)
# Double Indemnity (1944)
# The Major and the Minor (1942)

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

I've Seen:

Five Graves to Cairo
Sunset Blvd.
Ace in the Hole
Some Like it Hot
The Apartment
One,Two, Three

[Grouchy]

I've seen...

Double Indemnity
Sunset Blvd.
Sabrina
The Seven Year Itch
Some Like it Hot

The classics, basically. As mentioned, one of his defining characteristics is that he talks about serious and grave issues in a mocking, off-hand way, like fear of old age in Seven Year Itch or gender politics in Some Like it Hot. Also a great director of actors, there's not a single bad performance in any of the films I mentioned.

Sabrina is boring as hell, though. That movie lost its charm early on for me.

[Yxklyx]

... Thoughts on what next to view? ...

Kiss Me, Stupid

[Philosophe_rouge]

Very right, I'm a pretty big fan of Wilder, though with my new love of Lubitsch I find I appreciate Lubitsch's lightness compared to Wilder's almost misanthropic darkness (at least at times). Even his comedies seemed to be weighed down by anger, or frustration that while perfectly executed can almost be too much for me at times. I will say, that perhaps in a way, this is truer to life... I've always liked the idea that comedy is closer to reality than fiction, or even that comedy is just one hair removed from tragedy. He seems to really capture that in his cinema.

I really ought to revisit his work, many I've seen years ago, and owe a re-appreciation.

I've seen:

Essentials
Sunset Blvd. (1950)
The Apartment (1960)
Some Like It Hot (1959)

Good
Ace in the Hole (1951)
Stalag 17 (1953)
The Seven Year Itch (1955)
Sabrina (1954)

Bottom tier (still worth recommending)
Witness for the Prosecution (1957)
One, Two, Three (1961)
Kiss Me, Stupid (1964)

I need to rewatch
Double Indemnity (1944)

Most want to see:
The Major and the Minor
Five Graves to Cairo
Love in the Afternoon
The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes

[origami_mustache]

I didn't find The Apartment to be as essential as everyone says it is...not to say I didn't like it, but storywise it's probably my least favorite from what I've seen.

[Boner M]

Wilder is one of those directors whose work I generally enjoy, but have never really given any serious thought to at all. In other words, I got nothing.

[Yxklyx]

Essentials
Sunset Blvd. (1950)
The Apartment (1960)
Some Like It Hot (1959)

Good
Ace in the Hole (1951)
Stalag 17 (1953)
The Seven Year Itch (1955)
Sabrina (1954)

Bottom tier (still worth recommending)
Witness for the Prosecution (1957)
One, Two, Three (1961)
Kiss Me, Stupid (1964)


I'd put Kiss Me, Stupid right below Ace in the Hole. Hmm, haven't see The Seven Year Itch though.

[Qrazy]

I'd put Kiss Me, Stupid right below Ace in the Hole. Hmm, haven't see The Seven Year Itch though.

Unfortunately Tom Ewell is no Jack Lemmon.

[Philosophe_rouge]

I'd put Kiss Me, Stupid right below Ace in the Hole. Hmm, haven't see The Seven Year Itch though.
Within each category, there is no real order. I don't really think Kiss me, is his worst fil, though I will agree with Qrazy (though, not about Itch... which I'd also agree has the same probems) that it suffers if only because the lead actor is not as charismatic or talented as he should be. Wilder when working with great actors did wonderful work, but he seemed either inept at drawing great ones out of minor actors, or had a strange sense of aesthetics. It would probably be my greatest critisism of his work. Most of his "worst" films, are brought down for the most part by performances or acting. Though, admittingly I should see more of his work to really claim this to be true.

[Sven]

Peter Sellers was originally supposed to be the lead in Kiss Me Stupid, but I think had a heart attack before filming began, so they had to go with Walston. Personally, I think it's a pretty wonderful picture, Walston's neuroses hysterical (though a bit theatric, I'm insanely curious to know what Sellers would've done with the role), Martin's self-parody spot-on (love his one-liners), and Kim Novak's sexiness through the roof. Maybe more so even than Monroe's in Some Like It Hot. It's definitely comparable, at any rate.

What I find wonderful about it, too, is its complicated morality, even in this day and age. The jealousy/swapping/adultery/whoring angle is so convoluted that the pat solution at the end is really anything but. The film opens up a lot of issues about fidelity and the rightness of objectification, shading everything grey.

[Sven]

Watched A Foreign Affair this morning, it being so good as to instantly rank up there with his finest comedies. And talk about double-edged comedy. This is about as acerbic as you can get, but it's played light and breezy, classic Wilder (trading one lover's gift for a mattress for another lover). Jean Arthur's never been sexier, and John Lund was quite charming, I'm surprised I haven't seen him in more. Of course, what can be said about Marlene has already been said. Tight, witty screenplay (the Paul Revere bit is fabulous), crisp photography (I love the recurring reflections throughout: Marlene in the Lorelei's window, Jean in the mirror of Marlene's apartment), refreshing blend of politics sexual and military.

[Benny Profane]

If The Apartment were released today, with the same dialogue, and same direction, but with different actors, and a modern look, would people still like it as much? In other words would Wilder's "trademark" snappy dialogue play to audiences today at all?

Because I couldn't help wondering about that while I was watching the movie, which I found nice and entertaining but nothing to grovel about.

[Yxklyx]

Peter Sellers was originally supposed to be the lead in Kiss Me Stupid, but I think had a heart attack before filming began, so they had to go with Walston. Personally, I think it's a pretty wonderful picture, Walston's neuroses hysterical (though a bit theatric, I'm insanely curious to know what Sellers would've done with the role), Martin's self-parody spot-on (love his one-liners), and Kim Novak's sexiness through the roof. Maybe more so even than Monroe's in Some Like It Hot. It's definitely comparable, at any rate.

What I find wonderful about it, too, is its complicated morality, even in this day and age. The jealousy/swapping/adultery/whoring angle is so convoluted that the pat solution at the end is really anything but. The film opens up a lot of issues about fidelity and the rightness of objectification, shading everything grey.

It feels like the movie was storyboarded for Sellers and Walston then filled in afterwards without any changes to the plan. What I mean is that there are at least two scenes in which it seems very obvious that they were meant to show off Sellers' talents. One is an early scene where he's facing the camera up close and talking to himself - the other is the mishap scene on the couch. In both scenes Sellers came to mind immediately. It would have been a better film with Sellers - Walston is the weakest link in the cast but he's still OK.

[Raiders]

If The Apartment were released today, with the same dialogue, and same direction, but with different actors, and a modern look, would people still like it as much? In other words would Wilder's "trademark" snappy dialogue play to audiences today at all?

Because I couldn't help wondering about that while I was watching the movie, which I found nice and entertaining but nothing to grovel about.

Is this a "people wouldn't like it without subtitles" thing? I really don't know how to answer it regardless. Removed from the lips of Lemmon and MacLaine it is difficult to say how well it would play, but I know I love the dialog and set-up regardless and I know as far as society goes, this film has been popular ever since it was a "new release" in 1960.

[Benny Profane]

Is this a "people wouldn't like it without subtitles" thing? I really don't know how to answer it regardless. Removed from the lips of Lemmon and MacLaine it is difficult to say how well it would play, but I know I love the dialog and set-up regardless and I know as far as society goes, this film has been popular ever since it was a "new release" in 1960.

Nah, more like a "is this film stuck in its own era" kinda thing? Released today, would it be nearly as popular?

[ledfloyd]

i'll have to read back through this thread. but i just wanted to say that on a good day, i might say billy wilder is my second favorite director.

[soitgoes...]

Nah, more like a "is this film stuck in its own era" kinda thing? Released today, would it be nearly as popular?
Well, aren't most films a product of their time? The issues dealt with in The Apartment might seem tame to today's standards, but at the time it was dealing with issues not seen often or at all in American cinema, with laughs too. I don't think this lessens it's greatness.

[Sven]

i'll have to read back through this thread. but i just wanted to say that on a good day, i might say billy wilder is my second favorite director.

I'm guessing Bergman as the first?

[Qrazy]

If The Apartment were released today, with the same dialogue, and same direction, but with different actors, and a modern look, would people still like it as much? In other words would Wilder's "trademark" snappy dialogue play to audiences today at all?

Because I couldn't help wondering about that while I was watching the movie, which I found nice and entertaining but nothing to grovel about.

So if it were the same movie but different or rather not the same at all then would it be received differently? Probably yes, which means nothing.

The actors and the look are defining elements of the film that if changed would result in a completely different film. It's like comparing Rear Window to Disturbia or The Lady Vanishes with Flightplan.

[MacGuffin]

I just watched Ace in the Hole, and it was wonderful. Even if it was unpleasant. I admire how on the surface it seems to be about how disgusting certain journalist publications can be, but is bold enough to take that to a whole new level and criticize our consumerism and the capitalism that ultimately strives off of it. Wilder sure knows how to craft some abominable characters.

Quick question: did Charles kiss the absolutely disgusting wife, or just pull her hair? If it's the former, huh? I don't get it. I mean I guess it would make sense to show how stupid he is (as if the movie didn't do this enough without the scene), but it does indeed make me loath him (and her... if it's possible) even more.

[monolith94]

Anyone else seen Irma La Douce? It has a couple of nice scenes, but it's not a good movie. Still, I don't really regret watching it.

[Sven]

Quick question: did Charles kiss the absolutely disgusting wife, or just pull her hair? If it's the former, huh? I don't get it. I mean I guess it would make sense to show how stupid he is (as if the movie didn't do this enough without the scene), but it does indeed make me loath him (and her... if it's possible) even more.

I assume that they have sex. Do I recall right in remembering you mention that you haven't watched a lot of classic American cinema? There's an entire language of coding adult situations into these classic pictures that you start to understand after a while. Why would he just pull her hair? Do you think that makes more sense than if it was a sexual thing? There's an electric attraction between them, and sharing the amoral values that they do, it's inevitable that they're gonna physically connect.

[Sven]

Anyone else seen Irma La Douce? It has a couple of nice scenes, but it's not a good movie. Still, I don't really regret watching it.

Actually, I'd like it, if you could, to describe for me exactly why you didn't like this movie? I always hear people talking about how bad they think it is, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody describe why they think so.

[MacGuffin]

I assume that they have sex. Do I recall right in remembering you mention that you haven't watched a lot of classic American cinema? There's an entire language of coding adult situations into these classic pictures that you start to understand after a while. Why would he just pull her hair? Do you think that makes more sense than if it was a sexual thing? There's an electric attraction between them, and sharing the amoral values that they do, it's inevitable that they're gonna physically connect.

Thanks, I figured as much. Wonderful movie!

[StanleyK]

Mauvaise Graine - 4
The Major and the Minor - 5.5
Five Graves to Cairo - 8.5
Double Indemnity - 8.5
The Lost Weekend - 7
The Emperor Waltz - 4
A Foreign Affair - 4
Sunset Blvd. - 10
Ace in the Hole - 8.5
Stalag 17 - 8.5
Sabrina - 5.5
The Seven Year Itch - 4
The Spirit of St. Louis - 7
Love in the Afternoon - 4
Witness for the Prosecution - 8.5
Some Like It Hot - 8.5
The Apartment - 8.5
One, Two, Three - 7
Irma la Douce - 2.5
Kiss Me, Stupid - 5.5
The Fortune Cookie - 8.5
The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes - 7
Avanti! - 5.5
The Front Page - 7
Fedora - 5.5
Buddy Buddy - 7



One of the best to do it for sure. He didn't lose consistency in the latter stages of his career either, which is rare and admirable.